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20110512 10:14:35< Ivanovic> moin
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20110512 11:31:39< Gamefreak264> Ivanovic: moin moin
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20110512 18:55:06< zaroth> to any people knowledgeable with the history of add-ons
20110512 18:55:19< zaroth> was a notable non-random era already developed at one point?
20110512 18:55:30< zaroth> and then abandoned?
20110512 18:55:40< zaroth> or all that haters of RNG in wesnoth never actually built anything like that?
20110512 18:56:12< zaroth> 'notable' as in "with some balancing effort into it" and "popular"
20110512 18:56:40< zookeeper> the most notable ones i think are sauron's mod and my lessluck era. the former required a custom executable so it never took off properly i think, and the latter just didn't work completely right ;)
20110512 18:56:48< Crendgrim> zaroth: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothExperimental_Feature_RNG
20110512 18:56:54< Crendgrim> there are some listed, I think
20110512 18:57:52< zookeeper> oh, yeah, fosprey did something as well but IIRC it was pretty complicated and he did lots of stats changes to units as well, or something
20110512 18:58:06< zaroth> converting wesnoth into advance-wars like gameplay could be a fun project and there's already a lot of ready made art for it
20110512 18:58:24< zaroth> just all the unit stats and balancing would have to be done from scratch
20110512 18:58:27< zookeeper> i don't really remember anything about "Damage System Mod" so i guess i never paid it much attention
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20110512 19:00:31< zaroth> thanks for the links anyway, I will check them out :-)
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20110512 19:22:31< happygrue> zaroth: Dave also introduced an "accuracy" ability or something a while back which I think made it into a patch or maybe even trunk.  I can't remember how it works or if it's still there though.
20110512 19:23:49< zaroth> well, I was more interested in a complete rehaul in gameplay using WML to remove randomness at all
20110512 19:24:00< zaroth> and keep the non-randomness as a design dogma from the very beginning
20110512 19:24:23< zaroth> that obviously implies that all the stats should be written from scratch and lengthily balanced
20110512 19:24:30< happygrue> okay.  What I was talking to I guess is here (old): http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20997&p=293990&hilit=accuracy#p293990
20110512 19:24:49< happygrue> but no, nothing like that has AFIAK ever been 'popular'
20110512 19:25:11< joo> "A couple of players think, that the RNG has too great an influence on the outcome of battles."
20110512 19:25:17< joo> Why on earth would you put a comma there?
20110512 19:25:31< zaroth> probably a non-english speaker
20110512 19:25:37< zaroth> in Polish we put a comma in that situation
20110512 19:25:44< joo> I see.
20110512 19:26:26< zaroth> IMHO converting wesnoth to become non-random is doomed to fail, the RNG is rooted too deep into the gameplay ;-)
20110512 19:26:33 * happygrue nods
20110512 19:27:14 * zookeeper agrees
20110512 19:27:22< zaroth> so I was hoping that maybe somebody who saw the things as I see tried to do it (obviously using immense amounts of wesnoth art) but abandoned it later, it would be educational to look at
20110512 19:27:23< happygrue> it can be done, but if the motivation to do it is to *improve* the game, especially for high-level play then I think the amount of work needed is much like creating a new game.
20110512 19:28:06< zaroth> well, depending on what you define by "game"
20110512 19:28:11< zaroth> if you mean "ruleset", I agree
20110512 19:28:14< happygrue> yes
20110512 19:28:25< zookeeper> i've never been interested in anything but having a simple less-luck mod to make the luck complainers to shut up :P
20110512 19:28:32< happygrue> hehe
20110512 19:28:33< zaroth> but large part, i.e. art, engine and a huge community is here ;-)
20110512 19:28:54< zaroth> and imho it's also part of a "game" ;-)
20110512 19:30:25< happygrue> what I mean is that many things that are very interesting about Wesnoth, like even simple defense values for units I *think* become broken if you try to remove luck completely
20110512 19:30:35< happygrue> zaroth: did you ever play tripleA?
20110512 19:30:36< happygrue> '
20110512 19:30:43< zaroth> nope
20110512 19:30:52< happygrue> it is a board game with much luck
20110512 19:30:57< happygrue> WWII abstract
20110512 19:31:24< happygrue> anyway, there is a low luck mod for that (it's an open source clone of the game "Axis and Allies")
20110512 19:31:44< happygrue> but I hate the low luck mod, because it means that some results go from "somewhat unlikely" to "not possible"
20110512 19:32:03< happygrue> that is, it makes lots of situations where you had some chance to win a battle before but now you don't.
20110512 19:32:16< happygrue> that is really appealing to some people BUT it plays like a completely different game
20110512 19:32:27< zaroth> well, certainly ;-)
20110512 19:32:28< happygrue> strategy is very, very different
20110512 19:32:53< happygrue> so making a new ruleset and then all the changes needed to make that ruleset playable ... that is a lot of work I think
20110512 19:32:59< happygrue> but maybe it would be fun
20110512 19:33:11< zaroth> as total Wesnoth gameplay conversion mods go, I played Conquest (imho a very successful conversion for those who like that style of gameplay), travelling tradesman (not very good gameplay yet, but has potential) and gameplay empires (the same as tt)
20110512 19:33:12< happygrue> but it would be pretty different from Wesnoth
20110512 19:34:04< happygrue> interesting
20110512 19:34:05< zaroth> well, happygrue, I'm completely aware from that, that's why I'm asking about wesnoth-world non-random gameplay mod, not wesnoth without rng
20110512 19:34:13< zaroth> s/gameplay/galactic/
20110512 19:34:35< joo> How about letting something like a multiplier for the standard deviation of generated stats be changed on game setup, like starting gold is?
20110512 19:35:07< joo> Well, that wouldn't address the balancing issue, of course
20110512 19:35:23< zaroth> and although Conquest mechanic is Risk-based, it actually surprisingly feels a lot lless random than regular Risk and even Wesnoth for that matter
20110512 19:36:19< zaroth> joo: well, I'm not speaking about modifying mainline in any way, it's a fine game already, I wanted to talk about mods/possible mods
20110512 19:36:27< zaroth> by the way, any Go players here?
20110512 19:36:34< zaroth> or among developers?
20110512 19:37:02< happygrue> zaroth: I play, but not well!
20110512 19:37:05< happygrue> great game though
20110512 19:37:10< joo> zaroth, yes.
20110512 19:37:18< zaroth> yeah, hikaru no go got me hooked ;-)
20110512 19:37:21< happygrue> I played chess when I was younger, but only discovered go about a year ago
20110512 19:37:32< zaroth> I'm about 8-10 kyu KGS
20110512 19:37:42< joo> I find it interesting how many people start playing Go after watching HnG
20110512 19:37:45< zaroth> joo, happygrue: how about a game one time? ;-)
20110512 19:37:48< happygrue> at my best I'm about 10 kyu on KGS
20110512 19:37:57< happygrue> that would be nice!  I'm rusty
20110512 19:38:00< joo> In my case, the order was reversed
20110512 19:38:01< happygrue> and also really busy this next week
20110512 19:38:06< happygrue> next week let's do it!
20110512 19:38:11 * joo is 12/13k on KGS
20110512 19:38:17< zaroth> nice to know :-)
20110512 19:38:31< zaroth> at my best I was 6 kyu
20110512 19:38:43< joo> And what are you now?
20110512 19:38:45< zaroth> but never played a lot and I play a bit incosistently ;-)
20110512 19:38:50< happygrue> same here
20110512 19:39:10< zaroth> joo: no idea, I only play with my friend from time to time and I feel the only one's improving is she
20110512 19:39:30< joo> Well let's find out then.
20110512 19:39:33< happygrue> I think I quickly made it to about 10-15 kyu but then realized I would have to work hard on some positions and memorize and practice to get any better
20110512 19:39:34< zaroth> she went up from 9 handicaps on 19x19 to 5 handicaps with me in the last half year
20110512 19:40:09< joo> I don't think you're likely to improve much by only playing people worse than you
20110512 19:40:43< zaroth> joo: actually a friend taught me go, but I abandoned it about a half year later (~25 kyu). Then 2 years later I watched HnG and got really hooked (quick rush to ~10 kyu) ;-)
20110512 19:40:55< joo> I see.
20110512 19:41:00< happygrue> I'm off for a bit - but I'd love to try some go next week sometime.  I'm happygrue over there too
20110512 19:41:14< joo> zaroth, do you want to play now?
20110512 19:42:21< zaroth> joo: maybe in ten minutes?
20110512 19:42:32< joo> Alright. No hurry.
20110512 19:42:43< zaroth> I'll let you know when I'm ready then
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20110512 20:34:25< zaroth> joo: ping ?
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20110512 21:21:21< zaroth> happygrue_: on KGS: There is no user account named "happygrue" on this system.
20110512 21:21:39< zaroth> (wanted to add to buddy list)
20110512 21:22:47< happygrue_> zaroth: probably means I haven't been on in longer than I thought.  I imagine I can reactivate it.  happygrue is never taken anywhere, so I should have problem re-registering it if I have to. ;)
20110512 21:23:16< zaroth> yeah, seems pretty rare ;-)
20110512 21:23:32< zaroth> btw is it the grue from ADOM? never stumbled upon word "grue" anywhere else
20110512 21:28:01< happygrue_> zaroth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grue_(monster)
20110512 21:28:25< happygrue_> also this:  http://xkcd.com/91/   
20110512 21:28:36 * happygrue_ chuckles
20110512 21:28:36< zaroth> ooh, so the "It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue." I remember from ADOM comes actually from Zork :-0
20110512 21:28:37< zaroth> :-)
20110512 21:28:42< happygrue_> yes
20110512 21:28:47< happygrue_> ADOM was very cool though
20110512 21:28:58< happygrue_> I enjoyed it but never beat it
20110512 21:29:01< happygrue_> or even made it all that far
20110512 21:29:32< zaroth> well, my best try was about 40 lev wizard (no savescumming, I was so proud)
20110512 21:29:50< zaroth> but about 45 lev of the main dungeon
20110512 21:30:07< zaroth> I got overconfident and tried to clear out a vault with greater undead
20110512 21:30:37< zaroth> well, I probably needn't say that one of the emperor liches inside wiped me out... after this I got angry and didn't return to adom again (so far ;-) )
20110512 21:30:52< happygrue_> that is better than I did.  I can't recall the details but maybe around level 30 something
20110512 21:31:05< zaroth> so yeah, I didn't finish it either
20110512 21:31:29< happygrue_> that is the frustrating part - you go so far and then something just comes in and destroys you, and you figure out how to deal with it but getting BACK to that point is so annoying
20110512 21:31:45< zaroth> (and time-consuming)
20110512 21:31:51< happygrue_> yes
20110512 21:32:00< zaroth> that's why I loved the fast and furious coffe-break roguelike by Kornel so much :-)
20110512 21:32:28< zaroth> (and it's even actively developed and planned to be released on open-source next year!)
20110512 21:32:29< zaroth> http://doom.chaosforge.org/
20110512 21:33:04< zaroth> also, roguelike with sound seems weird at the beginning
20110512 21:33:05< happygrue_> ah, interesting - I haven't seen that
20110512 21:33:14< zaroth> but after getting used to it it's really cool :-)
20110512 21:33:30< zaroth> especially things you can do with that - kind of bullet scanning (if you have a lot of bullets)
20110512 21:33:50< zaroth> you shoot a bullet in a long room or corridor and listen for pain screams 
20110512 21:34:11< zaroth> on higher levels of difficulty it's a must-tactic
20110512 21:34:43< zaroth> happygrue_: well, then totally try it when you get some free time :-)
20110512 21:34:48< happygrue_> ha
20110512 21:34:54< happygrue_> that would be nice...
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20110512 21:35:15< happygrue> I will also put that on the back burner ;)
20110512 21:35:29< happygrue> but someday
20110512 21:36:20< zaroth> it's kind of a shame that the author of this roguelike didn't get it into this year GSoC
20110512 21:36:55< zaroth> he applied for Wesnoth, but his changes were probably too revolutional or some other reason he didn't get accepted
20110512 21:39:00< happygrue> I don't know.  Often we have a limited number of mentors available, but I didn't follow the details this year.
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20110512 23:00:31< zaroth> ... seriously? http://www.cafepress.com/wesnoth.7657660#
20110512 23:01:19< zaroth> oh, but that one's lovely :Dhttp://www.cafepress.com/wesnoth.7658096
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--- Log closed Fri May 13 00:00:19 2011