--- Log opened Fri Jun 03 00:00:13 2011
--- Day changed Fri Jun 03 2011
20110603 00:00:13< Gambit> Mine doesn't do those, my teacher gave us a link to some online one IIRC
20110603 00:00:15< Gambit> let me find it
20110603 00:00:29< Gambit> http://www.bluebit.gr/matrix-calculator/
20110603 00:00:29< SupermanCyclops> Well if you don't know, I can just remember how to do it by hand
20110603 00:00:39< SupermanCyclops> Yeah but I won't be able to use that on the test XD
20110603 00:00:45< joo> Just use w|a if you're going to solve a single matrix.
20110603 00:01:42< Gambit> SupermanCyclops: Well the odds of me having your exact calculator were poor :P
20110603 00:01:48< joo> Or.. use the power of Google: http://www.occc.edu/college_algebra/ColAlgPDF/InvMtrx.pdf
20110603 00:01:48< SupermanCyclops> Forget it, I'll just do it by hand
20110603 00:01:49< Gambit> So yeah learn to do it by hand or google.
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20110603 00:02:35< SupermanCyclops> So wait
20110603 00:02:49< SupermanCyclops> I isolate one variable so that it equals something with the other two in it
20110603 00:02:50< joo> Or, more directly: http://bgillam.com/tistuff/solver.html
20110603 00:03:02< obnoxius-man> Wow... I thought I was smart.
20110603 00:03:07< joo> Yeas.
20110603 00:03:22< SupermanCyclops> so if the problem is -x + 3y - z = -7,
20110603 00:03:33< Gambit> (herp derp #wesnoth-math)
20110603 00:03:47< SupermanCyclops> wut
20110603 00:03:49< joo> lol
20110603 00:04:11< SupermanCyclops> Forget it
20110603 00:04:16< SupermanCyclops> It's multiple choice
20110603 00:04:20< SupermanCyclops> I'll just use guess and check
20110603 00:04:25< SupermanCyclops> XD 
20110603 00:04:27< joo> Don't guess >_<
20110603 00:04:33< SupermanCyclops> I'm not, I'm using guess and check
20110603 00:04:35< joo> You can check if the solutions satisfy the equations
20110603 00:04:38< joo> That's stupidly easy
20110603 00:04:46< SupermanCyclops> That's what guess and check is
20110603 00:04:52< joo> Right..
20110603 00:04:57< SupermanCyclops> You take one of the answers, plug it in and if it's right, you know the right answer
20110603 00:05:17< SupermanCyclops> Because it's multiple choice, there are only 4 possible answers, and it's easy to just plug them in and check, 
20110603 00:05:29< SupermanCyclops> So I don't actually have to learn to solve it
20110603 00:05:42< joo> I'm glad that my education isn't that bad.
20110603 00:06:16< SupermanCyclops> lol
20110603 00:06:27< SupermanCyclops> Are you saying I'm getting a bad education?
20110603 00:06:48< joo> Yes.
20110603 00:06:50< SupermanCyclops> lol
20110603 00:07:01< SupermanCyclops> It's not exactly a bad education, I'm just exploting a flaw
20110603 00:07:07< SupermanCyclops> It's the final, anyways
20110603 00:07:32< SupermanCyclops> I already "learned" it and honestly I don't have time to relearn and master everything if the exam is tomorrow
20110603 00:07:40< joo> It's not bad, but it has flaws?
20110603 00:07:52< SupermanCyclops> It's the problem with the county
20110603 00:08:00< SupermanCyclops> They want to control everything
20110603 00:08:59< SupermanCyclops> The problem is necessary, they have to put it on a scantron
20110603 00:09:18< SupermanCyclops> joo: so they have to make it multiple choice, and there's no way to get around guess and check, unfortunately
20110603 00:09:39< joo> What course is it for?
20110603 00:09:42< SupermanCyclops> Algebra 2
20110603 00:10:05< SupermanCyclops> I'm only in 9th grade okay? cut me some slack..
20110603 00:10:13< joo> What they should do is ask things like "what is the sum of the solutions to these equations?"
20110603 00:10:26< joo> Which can't be so easily checked.
20110603 00:10:39< SupermanCyclops> o_o maybe they will
20110603 00:11:14< SupermanCyclops> I'm actually just looking at my study guide, which is in short answer, so, idk, they might actually do that 
20110603 00:11:41< SupermanCyclops> Anyway, I don't think that'll be important
20110603 00:12:20< SupermanCyclops> Since it can be done easily on the calculator, it's not going to be much of a challenge anyways. I don't expect more than one problem on it, since there's much more material to cover
20110603 00:13:05< SupermanCyclops> My teacher decided to be ambitious and make us learn it by hand, but that was first quarter and I forgot all about it, so meh
20110603 00:14:07< SupermanCyclops> joo: Btw my school was rated like 143th best in the country so....I guess you got a bad perspective on it from me, but it's a good school
20110603 00:14:17< SupermanCyclops> I mean, it's even on wikipedia
20110603 00:14:25< joo> How many schools are in the country?
20110603 00:14:41< SupermanCyclops> idk, a lot 
20110603 00:14:54< SupermanCyclops> Just the county I live in has like, 100 
20110603 00:15:14< joo> Well you do live in the U.S... so that's not saying much anyway
20110603 00:15:21< SupermanCyclops> Wow
20110603 00:15:33< SupermanCyclops> What is with all these US haters? -_-
20110603 00:15:44< SupermanCyclops> I agree that there are a lot of stupid people, but we have our fair share of smart people
20110603 00:15:55< SupermanCyclops> joo: wikipedia page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Park_High_School
20110603 00:16:07< joo> The only thing I'm saying is that the education system of your country is largely flawed
20110603 00:16:12< joo> I didn't say anything about stupidity
20110603 00:16:23< SupermanCyclops> I agree, 
20110603 00:16:49< SupermanCyclops> but the thing is, there are smart classes for smart people, but the so called "standard" classes have much to be desired
20110603 00:18:09< SupermanCyclops> btw the school is IB, that's an international thing,
20110603 00:18:35< obnoxius-man> I'm American and I'm homeschooled!
20110603 00:19:05< SupermanCyclops> That's nice
20110603 00:19:20< joo> What does IB stand for?
20110603 00:19:32< joo> International Baccalaureate?
20110603 00:19:43< SupermanCyclops> International Baccalaureate
20110603 00:19:44< SupermanCyclops> yes
20110603 00:20:14< joo> Hmm...
20110603 00:20:53< SupermanCyclops> ?
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20110603 00:22:04< SupermanCyclops> Gambit: I need help again
20110603 00:23:11< Gambit> ?
20110603 00:23:38< SupermanCyclops> -3|h-7|= -24
20110603 00:23:50< SupermanCyclops> Can I use the distributive property on an absolute value?
20110603 00:24:47< Gambit> Divide the -24 by it instead
20110603 00:25:01< SupermanCyclops> by the absolute value of -24?
20110603 00:25:05< SupermanCyclops> er, h-7
20110603 00:25:07< Gambit> no
20110603 00:25:13< Gambit> divide both sides by -3
20110603 00:25:15< SupermanCyclops> ok
20110603 00:25:32< Gambit> then you've got to split it into two problems IIRC
20110603 00:25:37< obnoxius-man> Don't mean to butt in, but is Gambit some math superhero?
20110603 00:25:42< SupermanCyclops> He's a math tutor
20110603 00:25:50< Gambit> *was
20110603 00:25:54< SupermanCyclops> Lol
20110603 00:25:55< obnoxius-man> Ahh
20110603 00:25:58< SupermanCyclops> Are you going to major in math?
20110603 00:26:02< joo> math superhero... oh, that has to be written
20110603 00:26:02< Gambit> No
20110603 00:26:40< SupermanCyclops> major in coding>
20110603 00:26:49< SupermanCyclops> some form of coding
20110603 00:27:32< Gambit> I'ma major in "Not getting my butt kicked at KZ3" right now.
20110603 00:27:37< Gambit> afk >_>
20110603 00:28:41< SupermanCyclops> lol
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20110603 00:30:45< joo> Multiplication of positive real numbers does distribute over addition inside absolute values.
20110603 00:30:54< joo> But negative numbers does not.
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20110603 00:33:49< SupermanCyclops> joo: So how do I split the absolute value? is it h-7 and h+7?
20110603 00:34:38< joo> No, it's -h-7 and h-7
20110603 00:34:43< joo> Er sorry
20110603 00:34:48< joo> 7-h and h-7
20110603 00:35:19< joo> Because when |x| = y, either x = y or -x = y
20110603 00:35:28< joo> (or both)
20110603 00:35:31< SupermanCyclops> ok
20110603 00:35:43< SupermanCyclops> So only the first number becomes negative? It wouldn't be -h + 7?
20110603 00:35:57< joo> Which is the same as 7-h
20110603 00:36:10< SupermanCyclops> oh, ok
20110603 00:36:13< joo> My first one was wrong
20110603 00:36:16< SupermanCyclops> ok
20110603 00:36:23< joo> The whole expression gets negated
20110603 00:36:24< SupermanCyclops> So they are both negative or both positive
20110603 00:36:32< joo> Yes.
20110603 00:36:56< deekay> #wesnoth-math? ;p
20110603 00:37:25< joo> Sorry to disrupt the other conversation you were having, deekay 
20110603 00:37:43< deekay> No worries, I can live with that.
20110603 00:37:44< deekay> ;)
20110603 00:38:06< SupermanCyclops> err, joo, apparently the absolute value numbers don't change, the number it is equal to changes from pos to neg
20110603 00:38:26< SupermanCyclops> So, it would be h-7 both times, but once it would equal 24, and the other time -24
20110603 00:39:22< SupermanCyclops> er, 8 and -8
20110603 00:39:51< SupermanCyclops> brb chicken fingers ready
20110603 00:41:50< joo> SupermanCyclops, there's no difference which side it is done to
20110603 00:42:00< joo> Since a = -b <=> -a = b
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20110603 00:44:26< SupermanCyclops> k
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20110603 00:53:54< Gambit> SupermanCyclops: By split I meant literally you must start two equations
20110603 00:54:04< SupermanCyclops> i know
20110603 00:54:45< Gambit> And then you lock one and move the other to WML Workshop
20110603 00:55:20< SupermanCyclops> wut
20110603 00:55:50< Gambit> It was a terrible pun based around the word "split"
20110603 00:55:51< Gambit> :(
20110603 00:58:10< jpi80> This is weird... btw, Gambit now I know why you are so geek. Are you a scientist?
20110603 00:58:44< Gambit> Uh… not in any professional sense of the term :s
20110603 00:59:13< Gambit> Although if we go by the first sentence of wikipedia, sure!
20110603 00:59:21< Gambit> Though I'd imagine that applies to everyone in the room.
20110603 00:59:23< Gambit> :P
20110603 01:01:09 * joo is a philosopher, wizard, hacker and velociraptor by various definitions.
20110603 01:01:31< jpi80> lol @joo
20110603 01:02:03< SupermanCyclops> Gambit: Don't try to ruin my exam scores
20110603 01:02:07< SupermanCyclops> with your puns
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20110603 01:14:05< SupermanCyclops> trololololol
20110603 01:14:32< joo> Ahahaha! Ahahaha!
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20110603 01:17:26< SupermanCyclops> Yeyeyey
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20110603 01:20:56< SupermanCyclops> Gambit: Another question
20110603 01:21:58< jpi80> IR-see you tomorrow! Bye all. 
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20110603 01:39:12< obnoxius-man> Sup
20110603 01:40:43< obnoxius-man> How can I tell who is on this channel?
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20110603 01:43:03< dipseydoodle> obnoxius-man: It should be to the right if your using the webchat.
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20110603 01:47:34< obnoxius-man> what are ops?
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20110603 02:12:43< joo> obnoxius-man: /who #wesnoth
20110603 02:12:55< obnoxius-man> huh?
20110603 02:12:58< joo> If you are using something like irssi
20110603 02:13:27< joo> (that was the answer to your previous question)
20110603 02:13:49< joo> Ops are people with special status in the channel allowing them to set the topic, kick and ban other users and set various modes.
20110603 02:14:12< obnoxius-man> Ohh.... kind of like moderators??
20110603 02:14:38< joo> Yes.. although moderators in IRC mean people with a status similar to ops, but with a subset of their powers.
20110603 02:15:14< joo> So ops would more accurately be likened to admins of a forum.
20110603 02:16:04< obnoxius-man> ok.
20110603 02:16:20< obnoxius-man> quit
20110603 02:16:23< obnoxius-man> whoops
20110603 02:16:34< obnoxius-man> still trying to figure out how this works
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20110603 03:07:44< shadowmaster> joo: misinformation. Here moderators are the same thing as channel operators.
20110603 03:08:05< shadowmaster> but this is freenode and it's recommended that channel operators don't keep their op status, etc.
20110603 03:08:07< joo> shadowmaster, I was unaware.
20110603 03:08:22< shadowmaster> perhaps you were thinking of something like that half-op thing
20110603 03:08:24< joo> My statement is true for IRC in general though.
20110603 03:08:45< Gambit> There's channel ops and network ops.
20110603 03:09:00< shadowmaster> the RFCs only define channel operators
20110603 03:09:03< joo> Er.. yes, I was speaking of +h
20110603 03:09:08< joo> I don't know why I called them moderators
20110603 03:09:08< shadowmaster> IRC operators are a whole different realm
20110603 03:09:15< joo> Maybe because of +m
20110603 03:09:56< joo> Well, another mind poisoned! A productive day!
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20110603 07:03:22< Cookie> hi shadowm_laptop ! :) you should sleep soon :L
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20110603 09:18:44< Ivanovic> moin
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20110603 09:23:34< Crendgrim> wesbot: seen monochromatic
20110603 09:23:34< wesbot> Crendgrim: The person with the nick monochromatic 8d 5h ago was here and on the channels #wesnoth-dev and #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: Quit: CALIFORNIA PACKING. Bye to irc for two weeks or so.
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20110603 11:46:18< Cookiee> wesbot: seen mystic_x?
20110603 11:46:18< wesbot> Cookiee: The person with the nick mystic_x 46m 4s ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: Quit: other challenges await..
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20110603 16:12:07< Elvish_Pillager> So, a certain person, who will remain nameless, has asked me to inform you that Wesnoth is racist
20110603 16:12:12< Elvish_Pillager> (It's true, by the way!)
20110603 16:14:38< matthiaskrgr> ?
20110603 16:16:08< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: What race is it allegedly offending?
20110603 16:16:25< Gambit> We do tend to represent orcs fairly negatively.
20110603 16:16:31< Elvish_Pillager> Well, what's up with the entire race of violent dark-skinned males?
20110603 16:16:55< Gambit> Uh… they're not humans??? :|
20110603 16:17:00< Elvish_Pillager> Admittedly, the pale humans and elves are pretty violent, too, but seriously?
20110603 16:17:35< Elvish_Pillager> Also, in a lot of campaigns, the Dwarves are a bad scottish stereotype.
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20110603 16:19:07< Elvish_Pillager> I don't think you can really argue that the whole setup doesn't have "white people = civilization, black people = savage brutes" implications.
20110603 16:19:18< Gambit> I think I can.
20110603 16:19:36< Elvish_Pillager> Well, I suppose you can, but you'd be wrong.
20110603 16:19:36< Cookie> EP: gonna start colouring, sorry but this... =.="
20110603 16:19:42< Cookie> about*
20110603 16:20:39< Gambit> They aren't human.
20110603 16:20:43< Elvish_Pillager> So what?
20110603 16:20:56< Elvish_Pillager> They're pretty much like humans.
20110603 16:21:28< Gambit> So Alien Versus Predator is racist.
20110603 16:21:39< Elvish_Pillager> I'm unfamiliar with that, so I can't comment.
20110603 16:21:45< Cookie> lol
20110603 16:21:51 * Cookie hugs Elvish_Pillager
20110603 16:21:59< Gambit> Anything with humanoid bad guys with dark skin is racist.
20110603 16:22:05< Cookie> you shouldnt watch it, that series scares the hell outta me
20110603 16:22:13< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: Not necessarily, but I'd have to say that that's usually the case.
20110603 16:22:23< Gambit> Lord of the Rings too.
20110603 16:22:29< Elvish_Pillager> I mean, you could have a world where there are some good guys and some bad guys in every race.
20110603 16:22:34< Elvish_Pillager> ...well duh!
20110603 16:22:41< Cookie> lol
20110603 16:22:48< Gambit> There are clearly white bad guys in Wesnoth. :|
20110603 16:23:02< Gambit> (And don't we have campaigns from almost ever faction's point of view now?)
20110603 16:23:39< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: Yeah, but Orcs are widely know as the "bad guy" race. People talk about the Orc and Undead campaigns as "playing the bad guys", even if the campaign writers try to make them more morally ambiguous.
20110603 16:24:17< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: Well we certainly aren't unique there.
20110603 16:24:58< Elvish_Pillager> Well, we got it from Lord of the Rings, which is obviously racist. It has this whole Beauty Equals Goodness thing going on, AND it assumes that the ideal of beauty is to have excessively pale, smooth skin.
20110603 16:25:06< Gambit> Actually we are. In the other direction. I don't see many other fantasies at least *trying* to make people sympathize with orcs.
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20110603 16:25:48< Gambit> If you want to say Wesnoth is racist against orcs, so what? They're make believe.
20110603 16:25:58< Elvish_Pillager> Sure, Wesnoth sets itself apart a bit by having a lot of corrupt wood elves and sympathetic orcs, but orcs are still used as a generic bad guy enemy a lot more than the other races are.
20110603 16:26:24< Gambit> If you want to say Wesnoth is racist against any real world groups, you're being silly at best.
20110603 16:27:01< Elvish_Pillager> I'm saying that Wesnoth's orc stereotypes exist at the expense of every real world racial group with dark skin. I fail to see what is silly about that.
20110603 16:27:18< Elvish_Pillager> We live in a culture where dark-skinned peoples are consistently portrayed as savage, or stupid, or violent.
20110603 16:27:40< Elvish_Pillager> So... playing into those stereotypes?
20110603 16:27:43< Elvish_Pillager> Not exactly innocent.
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20110603 16:35:02< Gambit> No. You're wrong. The orcs are often portrayed as the bad guys because the orcs and the humans are always fighting.
20110603 16:35:18< Gambit> And we're usually playing as the humans.
20110603 16:35:21< Cookie> SEE EP
20110603 16:35:30< Cookie> hate to say, I told you so :P
20110603 16:35:31< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: And you don't see anything problematic about that?
20110603 16:35:47< Gambit> About which part?
20110603 16:35:52< Gambit> Us usually playing as ourselves?
20110603 16:35:55< Elvish_Pillager> About the fact that we're usually playing as the humans.
20110603 16:36:07< Elvish_Pillager> That the humans are "normal" and the orcs are the other.
20110603 16:36:18< Elvish_Pillager> When, you know, all the humans we ever see in the game are white.
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20110603 16:36:34< Elvish_Pillager> Okay, there are some campaigns with non-white humans, but they're a small minority.
20110603 16:37:03< Gambit> Now one might make a case for white washing in that the desert elves are pale as chalk.
20110603 16:37:24< Elvish_Pillager> I was just about to make that analogy, but decided it was only incidental to my main point.
20110603 16:37:39< Gambit> But, they're elves.
20110603 16:37:45< Elvish_Pillager> Although it's definitely a thing, considering that it appears in one of the best mainline campaigns
20110603 16:37:49< Elvish_Pillager> So what?
20110603 16:37:56< Elvish_Pillager> It's not like there isn't precedent for dark-skinned elves. =)
20110603 16:37:56< Gambit> Maybe they are naturally devoid of melanin of any kind no matter what.
20110603 16:38:03< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: Oh there isn't? Okay then.
20110603 16:38:07< Elvish_Pillager> Yeah, so how do they not get sunburned -_-
20110603 16:38:15< Gambit> Magic?
20110603 16:38:18< Elvish_Pillager> ...
20110603 16:38:22< Gambit> (No seriously. Magic.)
20110603 16:38:26< Elvish_Pillager> Yeah, racism can be solved by magic
20110603 16:38:27< Elvish_Pillager> nice going
20110603 16:38:42< Gambit> They've got magic literally in their blood IIRC.
20110603 16:38:51< Elvish_Pillager> Occam's Razor, dude
20110603 16:39:26< Elvish_Pillager> Having a defensible explanation for it doesn't make it less whitewashing.
20110603 16:39:48< Gambit> Sure.
20110603 16:40:19< Gambit> Your friend could voice these concerns on the forums.
20110603 16:40:21< Elvish_Pillager> But my point is, even if you ignore the specifics like that, we've constructed a white-as-default-protagonist thing here.
20110603 16:40:23< Gambit> Particularly the writer's forum.
20110603 16:40:44< Gambit> But (s)he should search for. I can't imagine this not having come up before.
20110603 16:40:56< Elvish_Pillager> eh, it's not my responsibility to educate everybody else about their shit :/
20110603 16:41:26< Elvish_Pillager> and obviously the people on the forum would make it into an argument, and I don't have the time and energy for a forum argument
20110603 16:41:52< Elvish_Pillager> oh wait, you're talking about the person who asked me to say that.
20110603 16:41:59< Gambit> ;)
20110603 16:42:03< Elvish_Pillager> w/e
20110603 16:42:14< Elvish_Pillager> well, they have received your suggestion
20110603 16:43:32< Gambit> Well I guess we'll see whether they consider it to be a big enough problem to actually raise awareness, or if they just made you the patsy of their trolling.
20110603 16:44:24< Elvish_Pillager> A big enough problem to go and try to convince people who are, on average, even more resistant than you are?
20110603 16:44:35< Gambit> Personally I have a lot of faith in the development team. I'm certain this has come up before, and I'm certain they had a good long discussion and some reason came out of it.
20110603 16:44:40< Elvish_Pillager> ...
20110603 16:44:48< Cookie> Gambit: I cant be bothered. AND FYI, it isnt my idea. I hate debates. Perhaps you should stop being a troll encouraging someone to make a thread of debate that will most likely be locked anyways
20110603 16:45:20< Gambit> Cookie: Oh hi. How are you?
20110603 16:45:24< Elvish_Pillager> I haven't the slightest faith in the development team's performance on social issues.
20110603 16:45:28< Cookie> I merely thought this would be a interesting idea and wondered if others had an opinion
20110603 16:45:37< Cookie> Gambit: go kill yourself 
20110603 16:45:42< Elvish_Pillager> ...
20110603 16:45:51< Elvish_Pillager> Cookie, I don't think it would be a good idea for Gambit to kill himself
20110603 16:46:13-!- mode/#wesnoth [+q *!*@unaffiliated/cookiee] by ChanServ
20110603 16:46:20-!- mode/#wesnoth [+o Gambit] by ChanServ
20110603 16:46:20-!- Cookie was kicked from #wesnoth by Gambit [Ramble on!]
20110603 16:46:26< Elvish_Pillager> congratulations on joining the cyber-bullying menace
20110603 16:46:38-!- mode/#wesnoth [-o Gambit] by ChanServ
20110603 16:46:53< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: I hope that wasn't directed at the individual who was just told to commit suicide.
20110603 16:47:03< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, that was directed at Cookie
20110603 16:47:08< Gambit> Okay.
20110603 16:47:14< Elvish_Pillager> I have also sent it in a PM
20110603 16:47:16< Elvish_Pillager> but anyway
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20110603 16:47:47< Gambit> And for the records of everyone in the room, I will not tolerate what she said directed at anyone for any reason.
20110603 16:48:12< Elvish_Pillager> This is one case where I am sympathetic to Gambit's decision as an operator.
20110603 16:48:28< Gambit> Because it happens quite frequently, and it is a very sad event.
20110603 16:48:36< Gambit> And when it happens, everyone who knew that person failed.
20110603 16:48:47< Gambit> It is a failure for the human race.
20110603 16:49:05< Elvish_Pillager> well
20110603 16:49:10< Elvish_Pillager> I slightly disagree with you on that point
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20110603 16:50:39< Elvish_Pillager> If a person is in thorough agreement with themselves that they want to die, then I hardly think it's a "failure" if they succeed
20110603 16:50:52< Elvish_Pillager> but this is a bit of a tangent to someone trying to judge that for someone else
20110603 16:51:00< Elvish_Pillager> or to racism ;-)
20110603 16:51:15< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: That we could (as a group of everyone on the planet) not prevent the creation of conditions where an individual was so miserable as to give up on life, that is most disheartening.
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20110603 16:52:26< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: Okay, I guess that makes sense
20110603 16:52:48< melinath> perhaps the problem is that the campaigns with humans and elves range from "we are ultra-good" to "We are morally-ambiguous good" whereas orcs and undead range from "we are morally-ambiguous good" to "we are evil"
20110603 16:53:35< Elvish_Pillager> melianth: well, strictly speaking, there are some cases of "we are evil" humans and elves
20110603 16:54:12< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit, do you intend to let Cookie speak in this channel again at some point?
20110603 16:54:15< melinath> as main characters?
20110603 16:54:17< Gambit> I just don't think it makes sense to directly correlate real life groups with imaginary species based on one similarity.
20110603 16:54:25< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: Certainly not today.
20110603 16:54:28< melinath> or main sides, rather.
20110603 16:54:48< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: You should set a time. A good operator does not make unspecific punishments.
20110603 16:55:20< Gambit> I guess I'm a bad operator then.
20110603 16:55:22< Elvish_Pillager> melinath: The loyalists in HttT
20110603 16:55:26< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: Indeed, you are.
20110603 16:55:58< melinath> Elvish_Pillager: Reclarification: by main side I meant the side that the player plays as
20110603 16:56:07< melinath> I realize that's not what I said.
20110603 16:56:12< Elvish_Pillager> melinath: You're looking for a campaign where you play evil elves? :o
20110603 16:56:26< melinath> Elvish_Pillager: Umm... not exactly
20110603 16:56:32< Elvish_Pillager> I mean, usually you're supposed to have sympathy for the side you're playing
20110603 16:56:36< Gambit> (Why do your enemies have to automatically be evil?)
20110603 16:56:40< melinath> I'm just saying that I can't think of one
20110603 16:56:42< Elvish_Pillager> And UtBS has a whole backstory about evil elves
20110603 16:57:41< melinath> this is interesting. I'm trying to support the argument that one could read wesnoth as vaguely following racist social stereotypes, and I have both of you arguing against me.
20110603 16:57:52< melinath> Granted, I may be doing a poor job
20110603 16:57:55< Elvish_Pillager> :P
20110603 16:58:03< melinath> in fact I probably am, but still.
20110603 16:58:19< Elvish_Pillager> Well, all I'm saying is that there are a few counterexamples to your assertion. I'm not really disagreeing with your overall point.
20110603 16:59:13< Gambit> Someone should make a high (read: mainline) quality campaign where the Orcs are the main characters and the humans are portrayed as baby eaters.
20110603 16:59:13< melinath> Gambit: are there campaigns where the enemies are definitely good?
20110603 16:59:26< melinath> that would be awesome.
20110603 16:59:39< Elvish_Pillager> melinath: Well, The Dark Hordes is kinda like that
20110603 16:59:43< Gambit> melinath: No but I think both sides can be nationalistic and have skewed opinions.
20110603 16:59:58< Elvish_Pillager> Although you don't really see what the enemies are like, just that they're out to destroy your undead menace
20110603 17:00:56< Elvish_Pillager> And that's really just another example of the Righteous Humans And Elves
20110603 17:01:03< Gambit> I think the only problem here is that we get exposed to more of the elf/human alliance propaganda.
20110603 17:01:32< Gambit> But that's still assuming there is any correlation between real life groups and imaginary species in Wesnoth.
20110603 17:01:41< Elvish_Pillager> Which there is. Obviously.
20110603 17:01:55< Elvish_Pillager> Think about this:
20110603 17:01:56< Gambit> Which I don't like as the premise for our argument.
20110603 17:02:09< Elvish_Pillager> What if we switched the colors of all the units?
20110603 17:02:16< Elvish_Pillager> Humans are now brown, orcs are now pinkish.
20110603 17:02:25< Gambit> Cool.
20110603 17:02:28< Elvish_Pillager> Would you complain? Would you expect others to?
20110603 17:02:33< Gambit> No and yes.
20110603 17:02:37< Gambit> Because others always complain :D
20110603 17:02:39< Elvish_Pillager> har har
20110603 17:02:49< Elvish_Pillager> "Let's increase the HP of orc archers by 1"
20110603 17:02:51< Elvish_Pillager> "NO U"
20110603 17:02:55< Elvish_Pillager> "Let's stop being so racist"
20110603 17:02:56< Elvish_Pillager> "NO U"
20110603 17:03:17< Gambit> Clearly it is now racist against the pink skinned aliens we haven't met IRL yet.
20110603 17:03:24< Elvish_Pillager> lol
20110603 17:03:46< Elvish_Pillager> Well, no, it's not. Because there aren't stereotypes about violent savage pink skinned people.
20110603 17:04:07< Elvish_Pillager> Or, rather, such stereotypes, where they exist, are not nearly as prevalent in modern Western culture.
20110603 17:04:17< Elvish_Pillager> Which is the primary audience of Wesnoth.
20110603 17:04:52< Gambit> Sometimes in my head I like to laugh at our current culture because it is inevitable that racists will lose.
20110603 17:05:09< Elvish_Pillager> You think so, do you.
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20110603 17:05:40< Gambit> When we're at war with extra terrestrials we'll look back on them and thing "What morons. Discriminating against other humans."
20110603 17:05:46< Elvish_Pillager> lol
20110603 17:05:51< Elvish_Pillager> but no
20110603 17:05:52< Gambit> "Think of all our time they wasted."
20110603 17:05:52< Elvish_Pillager> that's not true
20110603 17:06:09< Elvish_Pillager> One, because we won't be at war with extraterrestrials ;-)
20110603 17:06:22< Elvish_Pillager> and two, because humans continue to discriminate even in the face of an outside enemy.
20110603 17:06:32< Elvish_Pillager> The example that comes to mind is the Mercury 13.
20110603 17:06:58< Elvish_Pillager> They were women trained to be astronauts during the US-Soviet space race.
20110603 17:07:23< Elvish_Pillager> They never went into space, because to the US people, patriarchy was more important than winning against the Soviets.
20110603 17:09:01< joo> <Elvish_Pillager> One, because we won't be at war with extraterrestrials ;-)
20110603 17:09:07< joo> [citation needed]
20110603 17:09:10< Elvish_Pillager> lol
20110603 17:09:44< Elvish_Pillager> If extraterrestrials exist, and we can meet them, it's astronomically unlikely that they developed civilization and technology at the exact same time we did.
20110603 17:09:56< Elvish_Pillager> Or even a time that's similar by a millenium or a few.
20110603 17:10:16< Elvish_Pillager> So logically, they're either much, much more technologically advanced than us, or much, much less, when we meet them.
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20110603 17:10:40< Elvish_Pillager> In the latter case, it'll be an imperialist war that won't really affect us at home, even if there is a war.
20110603 17:10:54< Elvish_Pillager> In the former case, the aliens destroy all our ships in half a second. I'm not sure that counts as a war.
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20110603 17:11:15< melinath> ... or the prime directive?
20110603 17:11:19< joo> Elvish_Pillager, so you consider it "unlikely" enough to be impossible?
20110603 17:11:19< Gambit> There could be some upper bounds to technological development.
20110603 17:11:51< Gambit> Maybe there was already some alien race that aren't as big of jerks as humans and they found and helped some others out
20110603 17:11:53< Elvish_Pillager> joo: Very few of the things I say are guaranteed to be true. I'm content enough with probabilities that exceed 99.9999% :-p
20110603 17:12:01< Gambit> And there's already some galactic senate and awesomeness.
20110603 17:12:39< Gambit> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards
20110603 17:13:12< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: I think this conversation has only gone to prove that. ;-)
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20110603 17:13:53< Gambit> And then there's the interesting full circle where: what if they aliens are all fractured and discriminatory against groups of each other?
20110603 17:14:34< joo> An alien race might have entirely different ideas of what's acceptable behaviour
20110603 17:14:43< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: Then we'd laugh at the aliens and discriminate against them because they're obviously being stupid and tribalistical.
20110603 17:14:45< Elvish_Pillager> ;-)
20110603 17:14:53< joo> Complete different moral and philosophical structures.
20110603 17:15:14< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, TV Tropes knows that as "Blue And Orange Morality"
20110603 17:15:30< joo> They could be like the Zerg from Starcraft
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20110603 17:16:13< Gambit> Of course it's even more likely that we find extraterrestrials that aren't intelligent at all.
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20110603 17:16:21< Gambit> That is, even if life wasn't a fluke, was intelligence?
20110603 17:16:52< Gambit> Of course now we're sailing into evolution where I know a lot of people get off the bus.
20110603 17:17:23< Gambit> I have one more note on the original discussion to make: If anyone feels this is a real problem, the writers forum is probably a good place to start.
20110603 17:17:33< Gambit> And now I'm AFK.
20110603 17:17:48< Elvish_Pillager> Cookie has a message for the channel that I feel justified in delivering:
20110603 17:17:50< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit. I dont really care if you mute me because we both know we arent on good terms and probably wont be for a long time if not ever. Im more upset the fact that you suggested that the reason im leaving the mp was because i get banned 24-7 when the reality was that i had been wanting to do thi for awhile in the footsteps of mythological.
20110603 17:17:50< Elvish_Pillager> And people who do know me, know that i dont mean 'kill yourself' literally, but I guess you were never a friend. ~Cookie.
20110603 17:18:38< Gambit> Don't be her mouthpiece to a channel she's muted in.
20110603 17:18:45< Gambit> She knows how to query people (obviously)
20110603 17:19:16< Elvish_Pillager> She gave a specific reason that she wanted it to be in the channel.
20110603 17:19:36< Elvish_Pillager> And I'm hardly going to let her chat through me. I just thought that that message was important.
20110603 17:19:49< Gambit> I don't care. She lost the right ot send messages here.
20110603 17:19:59< Elvish_Pillager> *shrug*
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20110603 17:21:56< Gambit> I looked through the documentation for MODE +q_unless_you_have_a_really_good_reason and it's not there.
20110603 17:23:38< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit, while we're being passive-aggressive and pedantic, I could point out that +q does not restrict other people from any particular message content.
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20110603 23:21:23< Pepe_> hi there
20110603 23:23:14< Crendgrim> hi Pepe_
20110603 23:26:02< Pepe_> we just had a problem playing with a friend against AIs on the official server,
20110603 23:26:38< Pepe_> Is it possible that a Wose lvl1 attacks 6 times ?
20110603 23:26:55< Pepe_> -s
20110603 23:27:29< Crendgrim> ehm... it shouldn't be possible, no
20110603 23:27:43< Pepe_> it happened just once though ..
20110603 23:27:54< Crendgrim> so the Wose had 6 hits?
20110603 23:28:11< Pepe_> we are both playing on archlinux, last version from repositories
20110603 23:28:15< Pepe_> 3/6
20110603 23:28:35< Crendgrim> well, he tried to hit 6 times...
20110603 23:28:39< Pepe_> yep
20110603 23:28:39< Crendgrim> against one attack?
20110603 23:28:50< Crendgrim> or did he attack himself?
20110603 23:29:30< Pepe_> he engaged the attack, (the AI)
20110603 23:29:55< Crendgrim> do you have a savegame of that game? Could be useful...
20110603 23:30:20< Pepe_> against a poacher (player). don't have any savegame :s
20110603 23:31:24< Pepe_> we played on the official server though, does it save anything ? :x
20110603 23:33:14< Crendgrim> did you finish your game?
20110603 23:33:29< Pepe_> yes
20110603 23:33:54< Crendgrim> which map was it?
20110603 23:34:14< Pepe_> probably « ppjet's game », probably a hour ago for now
20110603 23:34:25< Crendgrim> map?
20110603 23:34:26< Pepe_> hmm, castle .. (gonna take a look)
20110603 23:35:07< Pepe_> ahh, it wasn't on the official server, we played in lan, sorry :/
20110603 23:35:24< Crendgrim> :(
20110603 23:35:37< Pepe_> it there any chance I got sth recorded ? :-°
20110603 23:36:02< Crendgrim> well, just fyi: All finished games which are observable on the official server are saved on http://replays.wesnoth.org
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20110603 23:36:10< Crendgrim> maybe some autosave, but i don't think so
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20110603 23:37:45< Pepe_> gonna turn this on for the next time :p
20110603 23:37:57< Crendgrim> just save yourself if you see that again
20110603 23:39:15< Pepe_> think I have some autosaves, gonna upload them
20110603 23:40:06< Pepe_> or maybe just .._replay.gz would be enough ?
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--- Log closed Sat Jun 04 00:00:50 2011