--- Log opened Tue Jul 12 00:00:53 2011
20110712 00:02:26< gabba> tschmitz: Oh and btw, try and solve one of my current todos before adding a new one, or something like that. Bother me if you don't know what they mean.
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20110712 00:03:04< gabba> Since your current project is more focused, you should have time to tie up all the loose ends
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20110712 00:05:23< gabba> tschmitz: so, I read through most of your code, and again: good job
20110712 00:06:10< gabba> I read the conversations about underlying_id_, and ensuring it syncs across the network does seem to be a good goal
20110712 00:07:05< gabba> You seem to have achieved it already, but you should add one or two conspicuous commentaries at critical places to let people know that now, it's enforced!
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20110712 00:14:36< gabba> tschmitz: For recall, a quick idea is that you could simply serialize the index of the unit in the team recall list, that would save you  a search when deserializing
20110712 00:14:48< gabba> Haven't given it too much thought though
20110712 00:15:46< gabba> tschmitz: I'll go afk now and might alternate between online and offline
20110712 00:16:29< gabba> tschmitz: I'd like to try a few test games with you tomorrow, if I'm not too busy
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20110712 00:39:14< tschmitz> gabba: (Whether or not a player has networked allies) can change during a game
20110712 00:39:47< tschmitz> via droid and give_control
20110712 00:40:05< gabba> tschmitz: good point, didn't think about that
20110712 00:41:00< gabba> I think we can expect the player to know when that happens though
20110712 00:41:22< gabba> So enabling/disabling undo based on that should be acceptable
20110712 00:42:23< gabba> You'll need to re-check everytime if there are networked allies then, and when there's a gui, the option to share or not share should be deactivated if there are none
20110712 00:44:36< tschmitz> gabba: come to think of it, if you use give_control to change who's on what side, the whiteboard will not get synced up appropriately, as it is now
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20110712 02:48:13< gabba> 'night all
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20110712 04:04:31< CIA-85> espreon * r50273 /trunk/po/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Updated the British English translation.
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20110712 04:09:00< shadowm_laptop> anonymissimus: the topic in Technical Support to which you replied is spam according to some analysis.
20110712 04:09:33< shadowm_laptop> I mean today, the D3D DLL one
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20110712 09:40:34< CIA-85> tschmitz * r50274 /trunk/src/whiteboard/ (mapbuilder_visitor.cpp mapbuilder_visitor.hpp): Changed data structure to boost::ptr_vector.
20110712 09:44:17< CIA-85> tschmitz * r50275 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Fixed crash when planning a suppose_dead.
20110712 09:44:39< CIA-85> tschmitz * r50276 /trunk/src/whiteboard/move.cpp: Added newline between 'else' and statement following it.
20110712 09:45:00< CIA-85> tschmitz * r50277 /trunk/src/whiteboard/ (manager.cpp manager.hpp side_actions.cpp): Changed wb::manager fcn clear_undo() into possibly_clear_undo().
20110712 09:45:13< CIA-85> tschmitz * r50278 /trunk/src/actions.cpp: 
20110712 09:45:13< CIA-85> Fixed loophole in disabling undo for whiteboard.
20110712 09:45:13< CIA-85> Issue with goto and "Press 't' to continue".
20110712 09:45:47< CIA-85> tschmitz * r50279 /trunk/src/menu_events.cpp: 
20110712 09:45:47< CIA-85> Fixed loophole in disabling undo for whiteboard.
20110712 09:45:47< CIA-85> Activating the whiteboard while an undo (or redo) is in progress will no longer crash Wesnoth.
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20110712 09:59:37< Ivanovic> moin
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20110712 10:24:07< CIA-85> ivanovic * r50280 /trunk/ (10 files in 10 dirs): updated Russian translation
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20110712 10:39:30< CIA-85> nephro * r50281 /trunk/data/ai/ (lua/patrol.lua scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg): Tweaked the patrol_gen function to return a pair of function: execution and evaluation
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20110712 10:42:48< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen boucman
20110712 10:42:48< wesbot> Ivanovic: The person with the nick boucman last spoke 10h 12m ago.  10h 5m ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving.
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20110712 11:30:51< Crab_> Nephro: hi
20110712 11:30:58< Nephro> Morning Crab_. I've written some docs on http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaAI . Maybe you can tell me, what I've forgotten there if you take a peek, but I think most of it is there
20110712 11:31:34< Crab_> I'll starting doing a review of what was done so far, I'll look at the code, at the docs as well, and do some testing.
20110712 11:32:18< Crab_> I expect to finish today, in a few hours.
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20110712 11:32:22< Nephro> I've kind of run out of tasks at this point.
20110712 11:33:15< Nephro> Anything you want me to do this day/week?
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20110712 11:34:54< Crab_> Nephro: I expect that there should be a plenty of tasks in a few hours. Meanwhile,a good thing to do would be to study the issue of 'how to use one lua ai engine made from multiple parts, and how to save its state on 'save game' 
20110712 11:35:39< Crab_> Nephro: imagine we have a scenario S run with ai A using era E, and both S, A, and E want to contribute to the lua ai
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20110712 11:36:15< Crab_> Nephro: can you code an example for that ? afair, there were some features missing
20110712 11:36:31< Crab_> Nephro: the problem is: we want to have a single lua ai engine for all that stuff, from S, A, E
20110712 11:37:40< Crab_> so, for example, if we load a library to get a function F, it would be available to S,A,E - i.e. if each one of them will want to add a candidate action, they all would be able to use F.
20110712 11:38:36< Crab_> the usual use case for AI-from-scenario is 'I want the AI to know a particular scenario-specific trick, like 'step on X to teleport, to use it'
20110712 11:39:12< Crab_> the usual use case for AI-from-era is 'I have a custom faction with a special ability that the AI is not able to use, I want to add a candidate action to help the AI use that special ability in a good way'
20110712 11:42:02< Nephro> Ok, I'll go study that
20110712 11:42:18< Crab_> the good end result would be to code a small example which works
20110712 11:42:32< Crab_> note: most likely it'll require code changes before it would be able to work
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20110712 13:29:49< Sytyi> timotei: around?
20110712 13:29:55< timotei> Sytyi: hi.
20110712 13:29:56< timotei> Sytyi: yeah
20110712 13:30:32< Sytyi> timotei: hi. Can you test my patch under MSVC ?  
20110712 13:31:38< Sytyi> timotei: if you have time, offcourse.
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20110712 13:32:24< timotei> Sytyi: let me compile first the trunk
20110712 13:32:36< timotei> I'll ping you when I'm ready. ok?
20110712 13:33:15< Sytyi> timotei: ok. I will polish it and then send you. What filehosts do you prefer ? 
20110712 13:34:10< timotei> pastebin :P
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20110712 14:01:08< timotei> Sytyi: I'll stop the compilation. The CPU has 100 degrees :-S
20110712 14:01:24< Sytyi> timotei: Wow. 
20110712 14:01:47 * zookeeper blinks
20110712 14:01:48< zookeeper> nice
20110712 14:01:55< Sytyi> timotei: You're really hot boy! :-)
20110712 14:02:03< timotei> me? not really
20110712 14:02:06< timotei> the weather is :(
20110712 14:02:10< timotei> I really need a cooling pad
20110712 14:02:17< timotei> last summer it was not this way
20110712 14:02:27< zookeeper> the best i've gotten was ~88 degrees on a passively cooled gpu with really poor case ventilation :P
20110712 14:02:34< zookeeper> oh, a laptop? well, i guess those get a lot hotter.
20110712 14:02:42< timotei> yep.It's a laptop
20110712 14:03:12< elias> my desktop always spikes to 101 or 102 degree when i start a compile
20110712 14:03:14< Sytyi> zookeeper: timotei: My maximum was 90 C.
20110712 14:03:21< elias> then the fan turns on and cools it down to 80 again
20110712 14:03:52< zookeeper> elias, a desktop? O.o good heavens
20110712 14:03:54< elias> (i deliberately set than fan control to the lowest setting so it's silent)
20110712 14:04:02< elias> i hate noise
20110712 14:04:13< timotei> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/462510/temp.png
20110712 14:04:14< zookeeper> i bet you hate component life too ;)
20110712 14:04:16< timotei> I don't get it
20110712 14:04:22< timotei> it's just 30% percent turation :(
20110712 14:04:25< timotei> it should be at least 60
20110712 14:04:26< elias> it's running for 2 years like that
20110712 14:04:40< elias> heat reducing component life is a lie, as far as I'm concerned :P
20110712 14:04:42< Sytyi> and then I cleaned laptop from cat's fur :-)
20110712 14:05:25< zookeeper> well, not that i'm an expert, but i wouldn't expect something like that to run very many years more ;) i'm sure you can run such a hot system for a few years, but surely it drastically reduces the lifespan anyway.
20110712 14:06:21< timotei> well, the problem if it's the components heat or cool multiple times
20110712 14:06:34< timotei> that is, turn on/off the PC multiple times
20110712 14:06:39< Sytyi> I've heard that no matter in exact degree, but there schould be no quick changes of temperature
20110712 14:06:40< timotei> you'd better let it run more
20110712 14:07:19< timotei> ah. the GPU was 30%. I thought the CPU's/case's one :))
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20110712 14:07:34< timotei> I guess a 	Cooler Zalman ZM-NC1500
20110712 14:07:36< timotei> should do it
20110712 14:13:38< Sytyi> timotei: And we are under rains :-( . And my parents live in tent city right now. I  hope weaher to normalize. :
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20110712 17:49:57< anonymissimus> zookeeper: post in LessLuck era thread http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=24869&p=496950#p496950
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20110712 18:40:39< zookeeper> anonymissimus, reading...
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20110712 18:41:14< gabba> Hi all
20110712 18:41:46< Sytyi> gabba: hi
20110712 18:43:00< noy> yo
20110712 18:47:23< zookeeper> anonymissimus, i'm trying to find the explanation for the 50% drift issue in my irc logs, i know it's there somewhere
20110712 18:52:16< anonymissimus> zookeeper: but there is no technical problem in the era as it is; the side wide modifier alternates around 0%, the unit specific defenses alternate around their default defense
20110712 18:52:34< anonymissimus> so I don't call it a "bug"
20110712 18:53:27< zookeeper> anonymissimus, this should explain it: http://pastebin.com/8C36tmyN
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20110712 18:55:14< zookeeper> and yeah, i did test it and indeed after a while an ulf attacking a unit with high/low defense did tend to hit about every other time
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20110712 18:56:00< zookeeper> i admit that it still feels very unintuitive to me, but i do trust those tests a bit more
20110712 18:56:48< zookeeper> however, as you might notice those dynamic CtH increments we talk about in the end might be more easily doable nowadays
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20110712 19:15:28< neph> hi anonymissimus, zookeeper, I've started some research on eras and era specific AI code today. Have you did any work on tweaking AI for specific eras? The task I got is to design a way how to collect all the peaces of the AI in to one, meaning, era specific, campaign specific and in the end scenario specific.
20110712 19:15:37< neph> Any help on this matter will be appreciated
20110712 19:16:47< anonymissimus> neph: I dont even know of places in mainline or UMC where the new ai or lua ai syntax is used
20110712 19:17:27< neph> really? What AI does the mainline use then?
20110712 19:17:59< anonymissimus> new ai syntax is the one introduced in the 1.7 dev cycle (or was it 1.5 ?)
20110712 19:18:32< anonymissimus> well it uses old syntax which was wired to the new code by Crab
20110712 19:18:36< zookeeper> neph, AI (besides the standard WML [ai] params) is something i haven't had much to do with. i couldn't write even the simplest FAI off the top of my head.
20110712 19:18:38< anonymissimus> dont ask me
20110712 19:19:03< zookeeper> anyway, i'm not exactly sure what you're asking for
20110712 19:19:36< anonymissimus> I recall a guy trying to make UMC lua ai...I think his nick was FAAB
20110712 19:19:43< anonymissimus> in the forum
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20110712 19:20:33< zookeeper> anonymissimus, so does the 50% thing make sense to you now?
20110712 19:20:36< neph> The idea is such: imagine some factions(races/units) in an era have some unique abilities, the standard AI will not use the abilities, therefore we could create some era specific AI code, that would get included in the engine
20110712 19:20:43< Espreon> anonymissimus: That is true. I believe his work is in the Wesnoth-UMC-Dev repository... in the Nightmares of Meloen addon.
20110712 19:20:48< anonymissimus> and LoW does afaik make use of the newer ai syntxes, ask fendrin about that
20110712 19:21:10< anonymissimus> zookeeper: still understanding
20110712 19:22:12< anonymissimus> neph: yes; well I can imagine that doofus or alarantalara would have use for such code
20110712 19:23:26< neph> anonymissimus, they don't hang around here, do they?
20110712 19:24:09< anonymissimus> ala sometimes does doofus doesnt
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20110712 19:24:37< Espreon> Nowadays, you can sometimes find doofus in #wesoth-umc-dev.
20110712 19:25:18< neph> Espreon, that channel is empty
20110712 19:25:26< neph> you sure you wrote it down correct?
20110712 19:25:38< neph> #wesnoth-umc-dev
20110712 19:25:55< Espreon> Yes, I meant #wesnoth-umc-dev
20110712 19:25:56< Espreon> Sorry.
20110712 19:26:04< neph> AI seems to be a painful topic for a lot of people
20110712 19:26:09< Espreon> Yup!
20110712 19:26:19< anonymissimus> yep!
20110712 19:26:33< neph> But how do umc devs create their scenarios then, if they never tangled with custom ai code?
20110712 19:26:53< anonymissimus> we use the easy old ai wml syntax
20110712 19:27:01< zookeeper> well, unless you need the AI to do something very specific, then the old syntax is usually good enough
20110712 19:27:07< Espreon> Indeed.
20110712 19:27:35< neph> What actually do you mean by the old AI, where can I find the description of it
20110712 19:27:41< anonymissimus> sometimes we use tricky things like unit.goto_x
20110712 19:27:49< zookeeper> neph, http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AiWML
20110712 19:28:00< zookeeper> look for [ai] tags in mainline (campaign) scenarios for examples
20110712 19:28:37< neph> but people can't actually control nothing in this AI, they can only tweak its parameters, right?
20110712 19:28:44< zookeeper> right
20110712 19:29:23< neph> But doesn't the need to have specific control rise often enough?
20110712 19:29:54< zookeeper> maybe not as often as you'd think, but yes, sure
20110712 19:30:03< anonymissimus> we work around that with the knowledge we have due to the effort to dig into the new syntax
20110712 19:30:05< zookeeper> that's what we have hacky workarounds for :P
20110712 19:30:12< Espreon> Indeed.
20110712 19:30:38< neph> You might want to take on the LuaAI page
20110712 19:30:44< neph> take a look*
20110712 19:31:14< neph> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaAI 
20110712 19:32:10< Espreon> Hmmm... interesting.
20110712 19:32:18< neph> It doesn't seem too sophisticated(maybe because I've been struggling with it for two months), if you have any questions and/or are interested I'll be glad to help as much as I can
20110712 19:32:42< neph> Also in the very bottom there a library section with only one behavior at the moment
20110712 19:32:57< neph> if you want some other behaviors I could code generators for such
20110712 19:34:14< neph> At least, now there's a very easy way to make units do something specific
20110712 19:37:01< neph> --
20110712 19:37:40< zookeeper> well
20110712 19:37:50< neph> By the way, is there some team performance evaluation system in wesnoth at the moment? Meaning, a system that would count all the damage inflicted, gold earned, healing done, villages etc etc
20110712 19:38:47< neph> I will probably be working on boosting the performace of the current AI, and such statistics could help me a lot
20110712 19:40:39< zookeeper> uhm, actually i'm not sure what i should be saying. all i got is a first impression based on the example code on that page and i don't really know what it can do, so i guess i shouldn't comment much.
20110712 19:45:50< tschmitz> neph: if you play a game of Wesnoth, there are statistics available via the main menu in the upper left corner
20110712 19:45:55< tschmitz> is that what you mean?
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20110712 19:47:49< tschmitz> gabba: Oh hey you
20110712 19:48:05< gabba> hey tschmitz
20110712 19:48:17< gabba> (semi-afk right now)
20110712 19:49:31< tschmitz> K, I just woke up
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20110712 19:50:51< neph> zookeeper, do you know the approximate structure of the RCA Loop based ai?
20110712 19:51:44< anonymissimus> zookeeper: ok well I think I got silene's point; the program cjhopman made makes it pretty clear
20110712 19:51:51< neph> The info on that page shows, how we could use the new AI more efficiently, not just how to use the new AI
20110712 19:55:23< anonymissimus> and the fact that you have 70% chance of getting 40% cth in the next strike when you miss at 30%, but only 30% chance to get 20% lets it understand
20110712 19:56:39< anonymissimus> so the amount the cth is modified must be modified by the default def value somehow
20110712 19:57:01< anonymissimus> less if it's lowered thahn if it's increased
20110712 19:57:04< zookeeper> neph, nope
20110712 19:57:28< anonymissimus> (scratch last sentence)
20110712 19:57:52< anonymissimus> I wonder whether it can be done without much changes to the era
20110712 19:58:00< zookeeper> neph, i've never really used FAI/RCA and the whole thing always seems very confusing to me.
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20110712 19:58:36< zookeeper> anonymissimus, well, at the time i seemed convinced it couldn't be done without a bigger rewrite
20110712 19:58:56< anonymissimus> one could make a macro to create these chance_to_hit blocks with a step width of 1
20110712 19:59:40< anonymissimus> and round the calculated value which would be done in a new lua function which I have to find somewhere
20110712 20:01:09< neph> zookeeper, well, would clear documentation together with a complete sample scenarion encourage you to learn the new thing?
20110712 20:01:22< zookeeper> anonymissimus, you mean give every unit 100 [chance_to_hit] specials? :x
20110712 20:01:51< anonymissimus> um yes
20110712 20:01:55< zookeeper> neph, depends on if/when i might want to use it. i'm quite out of the loop these days and haven't written much WML in ages.
20110712 20:02:01< zookeeper> anonymissimus, but that's horrible
20110712 20:02:08< zookeeper> think of the savefile bloat
20110712 20:02:09< anonymissimus> sure ?
20110712 20:02:24< anonymissimus> but each block doesnt contain much
20110712 20:02:31< zookeeper> quite a few lines
20110712 20:02:46< zookeeper> 12 lines
20110712 20:02:53< zookeeper> (including the opening and closing tags)
20110712 20:03:05< anonymissimus> well maybe a step width of 2 or 1/3 is enough
20110712 20:03:19< neph> zookeeper, I am asking just to find out how the situation can be aided. I don't think that it is cool, that wesnoth has a great new AI system, which is not used because people don't want to study it/are too used to the old one :)
20110712 20:03:23< anonymissimus> more complicated though
20110712 20:03:37< zookeeper> i really really don't like that approach; it'd be much better to dynamically add/remove specials as needed
20110712 20:03:40< neph> The usage of the new AI could also make the scenarios much more interesting
20110712 20:04:08< zookeeper> neph, will you still be around in an hour?
20110712 20:04:19< neph> zookeeper, most probably 
20110712 20:04:48< zookeeper> great, i'll get back to you on that then
20110712 20:04:53< zookeeper> gotta go afk until then
20110712 20:05:04< anonymissimus> zookeeper: when you add/remove specials, you can never remove the wml
20110712 20:06:11< anonymissimus> when you do [object] the according wml gets added to the savefile, removing what the [object] added with e.g. remove_attacks= etc adds another object wml to that unit's wmld escription
20110712 20:11:05< anonymissimus> zookeeper: anyway, the muczh more difficult part is to find a modification so that cjhopman's program doesn't converge to hits/misses==1
20110712 20:11:32< anonymissimus> but to teh default denfense instead
20110712 20:12:23< tschmitz> What's cjhopman's program?
20110712 20:14:25< anonymissimus> tschmitz: dont ask
20110712 20:14:52< anonymissimus> tschmitz: http://codepad.org/YTQQgSKp
20110712 20:22:47< tschmitz> Unfortunately I haven't taken a probability analysis class
20110712 20:23:07< tschmitz> I can see what it does, but I can't see why it does that
20110712 20:23:14< neph> anonymissimus, are you working on a self-balancing randomizing sequence?
20110712 20:23:24< neph> generator... thingy...
20110712 20:23:52< tschmitz> In what context is cjhopman's program used?
20110712 20:24:53< neph> tschmitz, looks like this program just checks for the offset in randomness of rng in C++
20110712 20:25:21< anonymissimus> neph: if you know or have an idea how to modify the program in teh link so that it outputa hits/miss==(val/10) instead of 1.0 let me know
20110712 20:25:37< anonymissimus> thats the formula needed
20110712 20:26:32< anonymissimus> tschmitz: it is used to modify chances to hit in a wesnoth game in such way that long streakes of good or bad luck are more unlikely
20110712 20:27:04< anonymissimus> that program is not actually used, but it is the same algorithm
20110712 20:27:24< tschmitz> anonymissimus: oh lol Wesnoth does that too?
20110712 20:27:30< anonymissimus> no
20110712 20:27:39< anonymissimus> lessluck era does it
20110712 20:27:50< tschmitz> got it
20110712 20:28:40< neph> anonymissimus, do you mean, you want the thing to converge to val/10? How do you imagine that, considering that val/10 varies in every iteration?
20110712 20:28:41< tschmitz> anonymissimus: I would try modifying the += 10
20110712 20:28:53< anonymissimus> yep, and how ? :P
20110712 20:29:30< anonymissimus> I know about what to do but not in such way that hits/miss==(val/10)
20110712 20:30:54< tschmitz> btw I think the ratio you are expecting is actually val / (100-val)
20110712 20:31:25< tschmitz> for val = 90, you expect hits/miss == 90/10 == 9, right?
20110712 20:32:15< anonymissimus> val=90 means 90% hits
20110712 20:33:05< anonymissimus> um yes you are probably right
20110712 20:37:00< anonymissimus> neph: I mean val in the formula for the wanted ratio is the val as it was initialized
20110712 20:37:13< anonymissimus> 90 in that case
20110712 20:37:35< anonymissimus> but it cna be anything from 10 to 70%
20110712 20:37:48< anonymissimus> wesnoth defenses range
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20110712 20:48:59< neph> anonymissimus, imho the problem is that we change the val in each iteration. This way we don't keep moving to the needed ratio. Imagine we have a h:m == 4 : 1 (meaning we hit in 80% of the time), but the actual chance to hit is 50%. That means we are hitting too often and we need to lower the chance in order to move to the desired ratio. But once we miss, we raise the chance back again, disregarding that the miss actually moved our ratio to the right direc
20110712 20:48:59< neph> tion
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20110712 20:49:55< neph> The condition of change of val must be changed. It mustn't depend on the current result(hit or miss) it must depend on whether the offset from the ideal ratio is negative or positive
20110712 20:54:18< neph> anonymissimus, you got my idea? (my technical english probably lacks quality :)) )
20110712 20:56:04< anonymissimus> partly at least
20110712 20:56:44< anonymissimus> well can you suggest a modificytion of the program ? I probably can translate it to wml or lua then
20110712 20:56:54< neph> ok
20110712 20:57:04< neph> I need to restart into linux then
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20110712 20:57:37< tschmitz> neph, anonymissimus: something like this? http://pastebin.com/6vtRJ1jZ
20110712 20:57:46< tschmitz> credits to neph for the idea
20110712 20:58:12< zookeeper> neph, ok, i'm back... well, basically IMO the situation could be aided by making the required syntax simpler and not require understanding of non-obvious abstract concepts.
20110712 20:59:00< zookeeper> of course that's difficult without seriously compromising what you can do with the system, or so i think anyway
20110712 21:01:54< zookeeper> i don't know where to find the cleanest example of how to write a scenario where one AI unit does something special, like moves to a location based on some condition
20110712 21:01:54< zookeeper> however...
20110712 21:02:09< zookeeper> if i look at something like data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg then that already looks horribly complicated
20110712 21:05:14< zookeeper> of course, a major part of the difficulty is that all that requires you to know another language, whether it's the formula language or lua
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20110712 21:06:37< Nephro> anonymissimus, can you repaste that link to me, please?
20110712 21:06:56< anonymissimus> Nephro: what link ?
20110712 21:07:04< Nephro> that program, codepad
20110712 21:07:11< anonymissimus> http://codepad.org/YTQQgSKp
20110712 21:07:19< Nephro> ty
20110712 21:08:43< tschmitz> Nephro: I took the liberty of attempting to code up your idea http://pastebin.com/6vtRJ1jZ
20110712 21:09:13< Nephro> tschmitz, is it working correctly?
20110712 21:10:29< tschmitz> Nephro: It appeares to
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20110712 21:11:34< Nephro> great then
20110712 21:13:36 * Sytyi happy. 
20110712 21:13:49 * Sytyi validated my input schema
20110712 21:14:16< anonymissimus> Nephro: tschmitz well I think the idea is feasible
20110712 21:14:32< anonymissimus> and seems good enough
20110712 21:14:48< Nephro> I think it can be made even better
20110712 21:15:11< Nephro> This one actually doesn't prevent a person from having a long miss streak
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20110712 21:15:41< tschmitz> additionally, it adds the persistent variables hits and misses to the mix
20110712 21:16:06< Nephro> It just converges the ratio to the correct value on a somewhat long distance
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20110712 21:16:50< Nephro> That is, you will still have long miss and hit streak, but you can be sure that the damage you dealt will be somewhat proper after 10000 attempts to hit
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20110712 21:18:02< Nephro> That actually would probably be gained even if we just used the rand() since iirc it converges to a balanced ratio anyway
20110712 21:19:15< tschmitz> It is supposed to be uniform, yeah
20110712 21:19:18< anonymissimus> Nephro: well but wouldn't you get the long mis streak only if you deserved so ?
20110712 21:19:35< anonymissimus> that is you did hit a lot previously
20110712 21:19:48< Nephro> anonymissimus, I think it would look like a seesaw of miss and hit streaks
20110712 21:21:20< Nephro> fact is, these streak could really turn around a battle... Imagine your first big battle, you attack with 10 units and they are on a big hit streak, they slay a lot of the enemy units. Then they go on a miss streak, but still win, because they are ten, while the enemies now have only 5 units
20110712 21:22:17< Nephro> A very rough case, but if someone loses such a battle, he will be raging and swearing the so called lessluck system
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20110712 21:23:07< tschmitz> Nephro: How about this:
20110712 21:23:19< tschmitz> Remember the results of a unit's last 10 attacks
20110712 21:23:30< tschmitz> whether they hit or missed, that is
20110712 21:23:59< tschmitz> and if the ratio is too low, then give them an 80% chance to hit
20110712 21:24:05< tschmitz> if the ratio is too high, give them a 20% chance to hit
20110712 21:24:26< tschmitz> if it's just right, then give them the correct chance to hit
20110712 21:25:05< anonymissimus> well, whatever ideas we have here, it must fit to the already existing code
20110712 21:25:36< anonymissimus> the modification you coded is small enough
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20110712 21:27:47< Nephro> tschmitz, the idea is good, but it might be better to use dynamic percentages, meaning, the longer the streak gets, the harder it becomes to get the same result again.
20110712 21:29:18< Nephro> Maybe we can extend your implementation with a variable named streak, and if the streak of concurrent hits or misses grows, we make it extremely hard for it
20110712 21:29:32< Nephro> adjusting to the  ratio change
20110712 21:29:56< Sytyi> mordante: Looks like working! Now testing for bugs. 
20110712 21:30:49< Nephro> tschmitz, the last 10 attacks ratio will be jumping around like hell
20110712 21:31:57< tschmitz> Nephro: the percentage of hits will only change by at most 10 after every attack
20110712 21:33:20< Nephro> tschmitz, well, I consider 10% a lot in such things. But of course, everything depends on how the developers of the era see it work
20110712 21:37:31< anonymissimus> I will put one of these typical stements into the release "the author of this program takes no reponsibility for any harm your games might take by using this era"^^
20110712 21:37:56< Nephro> haha :D
20110712 21:40:49< Nephro> anonymissimus, well, the solution tschmitz posted is working fine and should be pretty easy to implement in anything you want.
20110712 21:41:09< Nephro> If you want we can extend it with some kind of streak killer
20110712 21:41:53< Nephro> The "keep 10 last attacks" approach needs a queue, don't know if Lua or WML has implementations of those
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20110712 21:43:46< tschmitz> btw I just checked the "average streak length"
20110712 21:44:19< tschmitz> anonymissimus: My paste has a higher average streak than just using the correct probability the whole time
20110712 21:44:35< Nephro> :D
20110712 21:44:37< Nephro> That's fun
20110712 21:45:05< Nephro> tschmitz, if you still have that code
20110712 21:45:20< Nephro> try to find the maximum streak length in both cases
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20110712 22:04:13< tschmitz> Nephro: Results:
20110712 22:04:13< tschmitz> 100000 trials:
20110712 22:04:36< tschmitz> cjhopman: max hit streak: 8, max miss streak: 8
20110712 22:04:59< tschmitz> normal wesnoth probability: hit: 21, miss: 10
20110712 22:05:16< tschmitz> my code: hit 18, miss 12
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20110712 22:13:39< Nephro> that's weird
20110712 22:13:49< Nephro> Oh, no, not weird
20110712 22:14:15< Nephro> cjhopman's code kills streaks, but gives the wrong overall ratio
20110712 22:14:57< Nephro> I think if a streak counter and killer is added to your code it will show the best results
20110712 22:15:07< Nephro> Average streak length shows nothing imho
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20110712 22:30:41< tschmitz> Nephro: Oh yeah, forgot to mention that I'm using 60% chance to hit
20110712 22:32:00< zookeeper> so what's your system in plain english? :P
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20110712 22:33:18< tschmitz> zookeeper: Me?
20110712 22:33:21< zookeeper> yes
20110712 22:33:50< tschmitz> zookeeper: my first attempt was my interpretation of nephro's first proposal, which was ...
20110712 22:35:23< tschmitz> zookeeper: Instead of changing our next chance to hit based on the previous attack only, it is based on all previous attacks in history
20110712 22:35:34< zookeeper> oh, right. only add +10% or -10% if it moves you closer to the stated CtH?
20110712 22:35:49< zookeeper> or maybe that was another proposal
20110712 22:36:02< tschmitz> zookeeper: Right
20110712 22:36:28< tschmitz> cjhopman's code just tries to balance out the number of hits and misses, resulting in always 50-50 on average
20110712 22:37:36< tschmitz> my second attempt is to base it off the last "ten" hits instead of the last "1" hit or the last "all" hits
20110712 22:38:39< tschmitz> it doesn't result in always 50-50 like cjhopman's, but it also doesn't result in the correct CtH
20110712 22:38:47< tschmitz> somewhere inbetween
20110712 22:39:04< tschmitz> the first attempt, btw, resulted in the correct CtH, by design
20110712 22:39:22< tschmitz> but didn't really help decrease hit streaks and miss streaks, which apparently is the goal
20110712 22:39:36< zookeeper> yeah, it is
20110712 22:39:55< tschmitz> I wish I'd taken that probability class right about now
20110712 22:40:04< tschmitz> I'll be taking it in the coming winter
20110712 22:42:34< zookeeper> i wish i'd have a better grasp of these things, probability class or not ;)
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20110712 22:48:33< anonymissimus> what about a mixture ? increase chance to hit only if we didnt hit in this trial and we did since the start also hit less than we should have
20110712 22:49:30< anonymissimus> what makes the thing a ton more problematic is that we don't have such static fights; we habe short fights with varying defenses
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20110712 22:50:06< anonymissimus> making it difficult to compute "did we hit more than we should have ?" since the start or tegh öast 10 strikes or whatever
20110712 22:51:02< tschmitz> yeah that is true
20110712 22:52:31< anonymissimus> I also consistently get too many hits with the border cths, at 90% or 10%
20110712 22:52:51< tschmitz> anonymissimus: with which algorithm?
20110712 22:52:51< zookeeper> i'd prefer to keep the side-specific persistent "CtH mod" variable without introducing any other way to track how hits/misses in the past
20110712 22:52:58< anonymissimus> all
20110712 22:53:25< zookeeper> ...but i don't know whether that could work or not
20110712 22:53:31< anonymissimus> since there needs to be a boundary at 100% respectively 0%
20110712 22:53:43< tschmitz> anonymissimus: oh yeah, btw, in cjhopman's program, the line that says rand() on it:
20110712 22:53:49< tschmitz> anonymissimus: it has a '>' on that line, but it should be a '>='
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20110712 23:06:52< CIA-85> espreon * r50282 /trunk/ (58 files in 3 dirs): Eliminated a Britishism.
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20110712 23:10:47< anonymissimus> tschmitz: could you improve (lower) maximum streak length but keep the default cth on average ?
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20110712 23:13:22< tschmitz> anonymissimus: I just remembered that I actually implemented this kind of unrandomization in the Tetris game that I made two years ago
20110712 23:13:51< tschmitz> anonymissimus: I will try to implement it in C++ and test and see if it produces that desired result
20110712 23:14:44< anonymissimus> tschmitz: ah you tried to break long series of getting the same block ?
20110712 23:15:25< anonymissimus> they're kind of really annoying^^
20110712 23:15:50< tschmitz> anonymissimus: lol yeah I did
20110712 23:16:14< tschmitz> interestingly, I don't tend to get much higher scores with the unrandomizer
20110712 23:19:41< anonymissimus> but the analogy fits well
20110712 23:32:33< zookeeper> anonymissimus, anyway, in the post you asked for permission; it's not on the 1.8 atm pretty much only because of the brokenness, so really it ought to get fixed first. i'm guessing you agree with that at this point, though...
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20110712 23:36:59< anonymissimus> zookeeper: yes i agree
20110712 23:37:35< anonymissimus> however, since i fixed some other minor issues I'd like to commit it into the wesnoth umc repo
20110712 23:37:47< anonymissimus> it may look as if I changed much but I didnt
20110712 23:38:15< anonymissimus> organized it bit better so that support for era heroes etc could easily be added
20110712 23:38:36< zookeeper> sure, feel free to
20110712 23:39:20< anonymissimus> and of course updated to 1.9 syntax, putting that .variables everywhere
20110712 23:43:33< zookeeper> yep
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20110712 23:49:49< boucman> hey all
20110712 23:50:05< enchilado> hi
20110712 23:53:11< Crab_> hi, boucman
--- Log closed Wed Jul 13 00:00:09 2011