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20110718 08:49:55 * shadowmaster makes a mental note to read the ladder discussion in its entirety later today/tomorrow.
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20110718 09:38:58< Ivanovic> moin
20110718 09:40:33< Crab_> hi, Ivanovic
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20110718 10:12:40< neph> hi, Crab_. Are you ready to have that talk?
20110718 10:12:56< Crab_> hi, neph
20110718 10:14:18< Crab_> neph: no, it's better to do it later (tomorrow?). however, we can talk a bit about the 'include ai in era' thing, if you don't mind
20110718 10:14:48< neph> ok, I'll just reboot to the system where I have my working rev
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20110718 10:18:34< Nephro> ok, Crab_, I'm here
20110718 10:19:11< Crab_> Nephro: ok. so, any good ideas on how to make an era add stuff to AIs ?
20110718 10:19:50< Crab_> I was thinking on making [era] to include it's own [ais] tag with a list of ais which would be available for selection in MP (there should be already some support for that)
20110718 10:22:57< Nephro> Crab_, I suppose that era configs are parsed long before the AI is initialized and the engines running. So we might keep the [ais] config part until everything is up and running and the the AI would just "ask" the era code whether there is something to add to them 
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20110718 10:23:39< Crab_> Nephro: yes, see the place where the list of AIs is initialized
20110718 10:23:48< Crab_> Nephro: however, there's another related issue
20110718 10:24:59< Crab_> Nephro: what if we have a lua ai, and we want to use a [event] to modify it to add a lua-based candidate action or aspect - will it work as-is now (including persistence across savegames) or are any config/code changes required ?
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20110718 10:29:43< Nephro> Crab_, yes, modifiying the lua ai works well, haven't tested it on aspects though, but candidate action modification was used multiple times by me
20110718 10:30:48< Nephro> Crab_, about persistence, I don't know what currently happens to the Lua state after saves/loads, but I think we have to include a persistence lib such as Pluto, that would serialize the whole state into a file, and load it back upon game loads
20110718 10:31:15< Nephro> We have things like global variable in the lua_state, losing the values of which would lead to errors
20110718 10:31:16< Crab_> note that not all state is worth serializing...
20110718 10:31:50< Crab_> i.e. if there's a multimegabyte cache somewhere (i.e. if some CA will decide to cache some combat expectations)
20110718 10:33:48< Espreon> Rhonda: I think the WesCamp stuff for g.w.o needs svn cleanup again
20110718 10:34:28< Nephro> Well, I don't see a clever and efficient way of separating things to-be-saved and to-be-discarded in Lua at the moment. This might be the case when it's actually not worth to invent  a new serializing mechanism, or vice versa. Typical engineering choice problem
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20110718 10:40:26< Nephro> Crab_, one way might look like this: we add a third function to the candidate action definition(optional) and when game save is triggered, this function is called(if it is there) to clean up any mess the CA left there
20110718 10:40:38< Nephro> after the cleanup we store the state
20110718 10:41:02< Crab_> yes, a good way
20110718 10:41:16< Crab_> and let to_config routines use it...
20110718 10:44:01< Nephro> Crab_, do you agree on including Pluto to store the lua state?
20110718 10:45:00< Crab_> I would prefer to serialize the state to something readable
20110718 10:45:23< Crab_> i.e. limit the serialization to some WML config structure
20110718 10:45:37< Crab_> what do you think ?
20110718 10:46:45< Nephro> Crab_, but how could that be done?
20110718 10:47:05< Crab_> if we nicely ask the CA to serialize itself
20110718 10:49:35< Nephro> In that case, (1) the reconstructed CA will not be the same as the initial one, (2) we might have trouble with closures and upvalues shared by components, (3) the UMC devs would have another function to write
20110718 10:51:40< Crab_> how you'd avoid serializing the cache with automated solution ?
20110718 10:53:11< Nephro> "we add a third function to the candidate action definition(optional) and when game save is triggered, this function is called(if it is there) to clean up any mess the CA left there" -- of course, this leads to another function to write too, but this one is optional and simpler than a serializer
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20110718 10:55:07< Nephro> the dump of the state could be saved right in the savegame config (in the bottom somewhere) or the savegame config would have a path to the file with the dump
20110718 10:56:04< Crab_> note: it's absolutly required to keep the save as 1 file
20110718 10:56:58< Crab_> can we make it explicitly like 'in a CA, you have an upvalue with a table, if you store something in this table, it'll be serialized' ?
20110718 10:58:14< Nephro> Crab_, come again. I didn't really get your last sentence
20110718 10:59:08< Crab_> i.e., I don't want to serialize the entire AI, preferring to keep the current structure of 'reconstruct from config on team construction'. for this, I don't want the 'ai' table to be serialized, since this will interfere with 'reconstruct from scratch' approach.
20110718 10:59:30< Crab_> so, I'd prefer to have some 'data area' in the AI, maybe on per-ca basic, maybe 1-per-lua-ai, which will be serialized
20110718 10:59:57< Rhonda> Espreon: Please ping me again later, I'm off to a meeting.
20110718 11:00:02< Crab_> i.e., don't make lua candidate actions and aspects serializable
20110718 11:00:17< Crab_> but make a lua ai partially serializable by making a table in the ai which will be serialized
20110718 11:00:23< Crab_> i.e., ai.data
20110718 11:00:27< Crab_> it'll be accessible to each CA
20110718 11:00:33< Crab_> so CA's would be able to store stuff in it
20110718 11:00:36< Crab_> afk 10 min
20110718 11:00:44< Espreon> Rhonda: OK.
20110718 11:08:42< Nephro> Crab_, oh, I see what you mean, yes. That's for data persistence, but what about functions, like candidate actions added by modify_ai. The config tree could be kept easily, but the assigned functions need to be kept too. Imagine on the second turn we remove a static CA and add another one. THen we save the game, there will not be another second move and if we load the game, we get the static CA back, and we know that there was a CA added, but it wasn't
20110718 11:08:42< Nephro>  serialized, and it's code is kept in an event tag
20110718 11:09:02< Crab_> the ca's would be serialized normally
20110718 11:09:13< Crab_> since they're added as c++ objects to vector of CAs
20110718 11:09:37< Crab_> so, those c++ objects would get their own to_config() called, in due course.
20110718 11:09:50< Crab_> since when a rca stage serializes, it calls to_config on each of CAs
20110718 11:10:26< Nephro> oh, you're right, lua ca's actually serialize pretty well
20110718 11:10:31< Nephro> just looked it up in the code
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20110718 11:21:10< Nephro> Crab_, then I'll give that a go. Don't know how saving a test scenario will go though, whether I will be able to load it("since I am only launching the game using -t lua_ai -d")
20110718 11:21:43< Crab_> you can
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20110718 11:26:28-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 227 bugs, 322 feature requests, 29 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110718 11:50:56< CIA-85> ivanovic * r50356 /trunk/po/wesnoth-utbs/id.po: updated Indonesian translation
20110718 11:50:58< CIA-85> ivanovic * r50357 /branches/1.8/po/wesnoth-utbs/id.po: updated Indonesian translation
20110718 11:53:25< CIA-85> ivanovic * r50358 /branches/1.8/po/ (5 files in 5 dirs): updated Indonesian translation
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20110718 19:09:11< Espreon> Rhonda: You back from that meeting?
20110718 19:09:39< Espreon> Meh, well it seems you fixed it.
20110718 19:09:46< Espreon> Thanks.
20110718 19:13:49< Rhonda> Yes, did squeeze it in.
20110718 19:14:28< Espreon> Ah, well... thanks again.
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20110718 23:26:29-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 228 bugs, 322 feature requests, 29 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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--- Log closed Tue Jul 19 00:00:43 2011