--- Log opened Wed Jul 20 00:00:44 2011
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20110720 00:58:29< tschmitz> gabba: Hello
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20110720 01:30:59< gabba> Hey tschmitz
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20110720 03:41:54< JordiGH> I'm curious, is the RNG cryptoraphically secure?
20110720 03:42:45< JordiGH> I mean, for multiplayer games, is there an actual bit commitment protocol implemented? (I think that's what it's called, coin flipping over the telephone)
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20110720 03:47:41< tschmitz> JordiGH: I'm no expert, but I think that the random seed is available to all clients
20110720 03:47:42< tschmitz> somewhere
20110720 03:48:29< JordiGH> Hm, that allows for cheating.
20110720 03:48:51< JordiGH> If you know the seed, then you can mod the game to tell you what results are ahead of time.
20110720 03:50:57< shadowmaster> Yeah, Wesnoth isn't cheat-proof and that's a well-known fact.
20110720 03:51:21< JordiGH> But I think this much can be fixed.
20110720 03:51:50< shadowmaster> As they always say, "patches welcome". ;)
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20110720 03:56:09< JordiGH> So I think it's like this, Alice spins the RNG, encrypts, sends to Bob, who does the same. Now they both have encrypted rolls of the die. Then they send each other decryption keys, and add their rolls, modulo whatever. This gives them both a uniformly distributed number in the range, right?
20110720 03:57:01< JordiGH> I wonder if it doesn't already work like this, I've noticed a delay before an attack when my pings were really bad. There must be network interaction at the precise moment when attacks happen.
20110720 03:59:12< tschmitz> JordiGH: I'm fairly certain the network activity is just the "attack command" so to speak
20110720 03:59:54< tschmitz> I've heard that it's fairly easy for user-made scenarios to suffer from out of sync errors if they don't take special care to ensure that all clients make RNG calls at the same time
20110720 04:01:02< tschmitz> so as far as I know, random numbers are generated locally and the only way that games stay synced up is by making sure that clients are using the same random seed
20110720 04:02:07< JordiGH> This sounds silly, is that really how it's done?
20110720 04:02:24 * JordiGH does an svn checkout.
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20110720 04:03:57< tschmitz> JordiGH: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/BuildingMultiplayerExamples
20110720 04:04:40< tschmitz> that page is apparently out of date though
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20110720 04:09:01< JordiGH> Alrighty, doing an svn checkout...
20110720 04:09:42< JordiGH> Eh, teleport.hpp?
20110720 04:09:47< JordiGH> Stuff can teleport/
20110720 04:09:48< JordiGH> ?
20110720 04:11:08< tschmitz> Um, Silver Mages can teleport
20110720 04:11:26< tschmitz> WML events can also cause teleportation
20110720 04:11:38< tschmitz> but I dunno what teleport.hpp handles
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20110720 05:26:29-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 229 bugs, 322 feature requests, 28 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110720 06:51:34< gabba> Hey tschmitz, what's up?
20110720 06:51:58< tschmitz> gabba: Hi, I was just writing back to you
20110720 06:52:44< tschmitz> I was hanging out with a friend from high school yesterday and whatnot
20110720 06:52:44< gabba> ah ok, do you prefer to finish that and send it to me, or just discuss it right away on IRC?
20110720 06:52:44< tschmitz> I have been a little less productive over the past couple days
20110720 06:52:56< tschmitz> We can talk about it on IRC if you like
20110720 06:53:08< tschmitz> I did try your idea a little bit last week
20110720 06:53:18< tschmitz> and I did feel like there were some issues
20110720 06:53:22< gabba> k, let's call it your midterm break ;)
20110720 06:54:16< tschmitz> One issue is that some actions will get invalidated by the temporary move and then subsequently deleted, unless there were a special validation mode that prevented the deletion of those kinds of invalid actions.
20110720 06:54:42< tschmitz> But even if we had that, we'd have to implement some kind of similar validation mode on allies' clients, who would also have to be aware of the fact that this particular move action is just a temporary one; this would be hard because, while it's easy to tell if an action is invalid *at all*, it's difficult to tell if an action is invalid *because of* some specific other action, namely the ally's temporary move
20110720 06:54:45< gabba> wait, do any actions still get deleted when invalid?
20110720 06:55:00< tschmitz> gabba: Yes, we have two notions of invalid
20110720 06:55:23< tschmitz> informally, the distinction hinges on whether or not the source unit is still in its hex
20110720 06:56:03< tschmitz> If I make a move planned action for a unit and then that unit gets killed, its action will disappear instead of remaining as an invalid one
20110720 06:56:13< gabba> right, if the unit doesn't exist anymore, plans for that unit still get deleted... that^^
20110720 06:56:52< gabba> But I don't think that planning some unit could cause action deletion for others?
20110720 06:56:58< tschmitz> additionally, only moves currently have an "invalid but not deleted" status
20110720 06:57:13< tschmitz> recruits recalls and suppose_deads never stick around in invalid form, but that could change if we think of a good way to illustrate it
20110720 06:58:05< gabba> Yes that's kind of implied by my idea
20110720 06:58:12< tschmitz> It's reasonably likely that my temporary move will invalidate my ally's actions ... let's see
20110720 06:58:30< tschmitz> if I move over his recruit action
20110720 06:58:32< tschmitz> in his castle
20110720 06:58:52< gabba> (note that the temporary move doesn't necessarily have to be sent to allies until confirmed, btw... would be nice but not essential)
20110720 06:59:48< tschmitz> Yeah that is true; if we did it that way, the problem would be lesser, although it would require disabling the network code during the move selection
20110720 06:59:55< gabba> in the recruit case, the visuals should change but it shouldn't be deleted anymore
20110720 07:00:20< tschmitz> Hm OK
20110720 07:00:57< gabba> I'm thinking of two alternatives to changing the visuals:
20110720 07:02:26< tschmitz> (I guess the other thing that could happen is that if my ally puts a suppose_dead on me, then attempting to move my unit would definitely trigger the deletion of the suppose_dead. Fortunately, that one is relatively minor)
20110720 07:02:31< gabba> 1- present the player with a list of invalid actions, that dynamically changes if we receive the planning of the current player in real time: this way, I know at least what was invalidated, and the recruit though invisible when invalidated can "come back" when it's not invalid
20110720 07:03:55< gabba> 2 - At the beginning of his turn, scroll the player through plans that were invalidated when it wasn't his turn (so either due to the allies or enemies) and give a few options if appropriate (accept/reject/change/whatever)
20110720 07:04:35< gabba> Rough ideas anyways... but those are directions we could go to if the visuals are really too hard to get right
20110720 07:05:31< tschmitz> How about changing the color of the action number?
20110720 07:06:05< tschmitz> Oh yeah, I never updated you on what I did with that
20110720 07:06:25< tschmitz> I made it so that the action numbers from different teams won't overlap ecah other anymore
20110720 07:06:55< tschmitz> so that's good, but now they are still hard to distinguish from one another because the numbers are all yellow
20110720 07:07:19< tschmitz> but I added some framework so that we can easily add support for team-coloring the numbers
20110720 07:07:52< tschmitz> However, I wasn't sure how to translate team-color into an SDLColor object, so I left it at that
20110720 07:08:47< tschmitz> Also, I wanted to discuss one more time the reason that you want to insert the move actions into the queue while they are still unconfirmed
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20110720 07:09:25< tschmitz> as I recall, your motivation for doing that was to make it so that the sidebar unit is taken from the fully-built future unit map
20110720 07:09:46< tschmitz> rather than the partially-built map
20110720 07:11:03< tschmitz> I still think it would be easier to just build the whole map while the sidebar is being drawn
20110720 07:11:28< tschmitz> i.e., have a separate map-building mode
20110720 07:12:04< tschmitz> I can try to work on the whole map-building framework to make sure the code doesn't get extra convoluted in the process
20110720 07:12:50< tschmitz> That just seems to me like a more sensible and direct solution to the sidebar problem than what you proposed
20110720 07:14:03< tschmitz> gabba: Are you going to start working on the code this summer?
20110720 07:14:59< gabba> (Sorry, went afk) I'd very much like to, but it doesn't look like I'll get to it
20110720 07:15:15< gabba> I'm going on vacations 'round mid-August
20110720 07:15:39< gabba> But if not this summer, I want to advance the wb project this autumn
20110720 07:16:01 * gabba reads the lines he missed
20110720 07:18:15< gabba> tschmitz: ok, let's see. The motivation for inserting actions  right away was to allow building the unit map including planned actions from all player, instead of ignoring the ones that play after you
20110720 07:18:57< tschmitz> Currently, highlighting allies' actions works (number gets bigger, arrow gets brighter)
20110720 07:19:23< tschmitz> the sidebar still has "the issue"
20110720 07:19:27< gabba> Interesting idea on the number coloring btw, but first we need to solve the problem of some arrows/colors being almost invisible
20110720 07:19:44< tschmitz> Yes that is true
20110720 07:20:26< gabba> I look forward to see what you did to separate the numbers
20110720 07:20:57< gabba> mmm, so for the sidebar issue, we do have to weight the pros and cons
20110720 07:21:37< tschmitz> ( aNumbers used to be drawn in side_actions::draw_hex(). Now they are drawn in manager::draw_hex() so that it can include actions from everyone's side_actions )
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20110720 07:22:25< gabba> sounds good
20110720 07:23:06< tschmitz> Yeah looks like I committed that one already
20110720 07:23:23< tschmitz> so it should be available for you if you want to look at it sometime
20110720 07:24:05< gabba> Did we determine why we have two separate unit maps, and if my idea would allow to merge the two methods back into one?
20110720 07:24:30< gabba> I'd rather merge than add yet another map building mode, if we can avoid it :/
20110720 07:24:39< tschmitz> gabba: You mean the for-pathfinding and the non-for-pathfinding?
20110720 07:24:45< gabba> yeah
20110720 07:24:53< gabba> We'll go with whatever is practical though
20110720 07:25:05< tschmitz> gabba: As I mentioend last time, the difference is whether or not recruits/recalls are placed on the map
20110720 07:25:05< gabba> I feel silly for not remembering why I had to do that
20110720 07:25:31< gabba> Sure I remember the difference, but did you understand why/when each one's used
20110720 07:25:45< tschmitz> I'm not exactly sure why you wanted to ever leave them out,
20110720 07:25:55< tschmitz> I haven't looked into it deeply, so ... I suppose not.
20110720 07:26:09< tschmitz> It's easy to think of reasons why to include the recruits and recalls on the map
20110720 07:26:21< tschmitz> I can't really think of a reason why not to include them on the map, though
20110720 07:27:07< tschmitz> You can't remember at all?
20110720 07:27:18< tschmitz> I am grepping through the code now to see when each is used;
20110720 07:27:18< gabba> I probably ran into hairy problems, otherwise I love consistency so much, I would never have done this
20110720 07:28:13< tschmitz> OK, one difference that it makes
20110720 07:28:20< tschmitz> planned recruits are not selectable
20110720 07:28:23< gabba> Not under linux right now, but I'll go look at the code on Gna!
20110720 07:28:34< tschmitz> if you click on a planned recruit, it doesn't get selected
20110720 07:28:52< tschmitz> because it is not part of the map for the purposes of selection; only for the purposes of pathfinding
20110720 07:29:22< gabba> ah... ok I'm starting to see why, I think
20110720 07:29:45< tschmitz> Let me know when it clicks, because I still haven't spotted the danger
20110720 07:30:26< gabba> I bet that if a unit gets selected the game keeps a reference to it or its location, and afterwards try to reference it in a later part of the program
20110720 07:31:20< tschmitz> gabba: Maybe that's the reason
20110720 07:31:22< gabba> I remember that when you insert a unit into the map, remove it and put it back (so, when building, unbuilding and rebuilding for instance), some references break
20110720 07:31:47< tschmitz> Hm
20110720 07:32:34< gabba> In some place, probably in the mouse code, I had to revert the unit map to normal for several things and rebuild it afterwards, but it didn't "rebuild" the selection reference or something similar
20110720 07:33:02< gabba> Maybe with a fresh look at the situation you can find a better solution
20110720 07:33:18< tschmitz> Yeah the mouse code has many scoped unit map blocks, rather than just one block around the whole thing
20110720 07:33:25< tschmitz> interestingly
20110720 07:39:34< gabba> tschmitz: The sidebar display is linked to the selection AFAIR
20110720 07:40:05< tschmitz> gabba: I know it displays the selected unit there, even if you mouseover a different unit and then move the mouse away from that unit
20110720 07:40:30< tschmitz> whereas when nobody is selected, it just remembers the most recently moused-over unit
20110720 07:51:51< tschmitz> gabba: I just realized that the partially-built map is necessary to do the pathfinding properly
20110720 07:52:20< gabba> tell me!
20110720 07:52:27< tschmitz> What?
20110720 07:52:43< gabba> well, why it is so, so I can a memory flashback
20110720 07:53:12< tschmitz> When I say partially-built, I mean our more recent notions of partially-built and fully-built
20110720 07:53:42< tschmitz> not your recruits vs no-recruits
20110720 07:53:51< tschmitz> I still haven't figured that one out
20110720 07:53:54< gabba> k I see
20110720 07:55:16< tschmitz> but yeah calling the pathfind algorithm will of course make use of the presently active map, so if we eliminate our ability to build only up to our own turn and exclude our allies whose turns come later ...
20110720 07:55:18< tschmitz> then
20110720 07:55:28< gabba> Yeah actually I was thinking about that the other day (now that you mention it) and I thought we'd probably have to build the unit map up to the action to insert, "pause the build", insert it and then build the rest of the unit map
20110720 07:55:33< tschmitz> we won't be able to get the correct map for pathfinding
20110720 07:55:37< gabba> Pretty complicated
20110720 07:56:21< tschmitz> I think we can manage 3 modes; unbuilt, partly-built, fully-built
20110720 07:56:55< tschmitz> the first for real-game things, the second for manipulating our own whiteboard actions, and the third for viewing all plans together
20110720 07:57:13< tschmitz> as far as the recruits vs no-recruits, I still don't know the answer
20110720 07:58:26< tschmitz> maybe we can add the "fake recruit" as a field in the recruit action
20110720 07:58:35< tschmitz> and keep it around
20110720 07:58:53< tschmitz> so that we can guarantee that unbuilding and rebuilding will result in the same fake unit being added to the map
20110720 08:00:06< gabba> maybe, maybe not, can't tell without analysing the issue more
20110720 08:00:11< tschmitz> Yeah
20110720 08:01:16< gabba> Ok, let's do the following: for tomorrow try to understand what's going on with the recruits vs no-recruits, and I'll do the same on my end
20110720 08:01:43< tschmitz> gabba: Sounds like a plan
20110720 08:01:47< tschmitz> gonna get some sleep?
20110720 08:02:42< gabba> Besides that draw up a list of what you think should be priorities to polish up the multiplayer whiteboard, then I can go through that and suggest/add/remove as needed
20110720 08:03:23< gabba> Yes, some quick gaming and then sleep
20110720 08:04:59< gabba> tschmitz: so, see you tomorrow for planning the final miles (for you) / kilometers (for me)
20110720 08:05:25< tschmitz> gabba: heh OK then
20110720 08:05:33< tschmitz> I'll talk to you tomorrow then.
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20110720 09:22:24< timotei> mornign
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20110720 12:13:13< CIA-85> nephro * r50360 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Fixed a bug that leads to a crash(Lua aspects weren't saved between games)
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20110720 12:43:06< timotei21> I'm wondering. why does "variable" in wiki point to http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ConditionalActionsWML#Condition_Tags ?
20110720 12:43:20< timotei21> isn't variable the [set_variable] thingy?
20110720 12:43:51< shadowmaster> in the sidebar, "variable" refers to the tag [variable]
20110720 12:44:03< timotei21> ah
20110720 12:44:04< shadowmaster> all names in the sidebar are tag names, not attribute names
20110720 12:44:26< timotei21> shadowmaster: thanks
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20110720 13:14:03< Nephro> is cfg["smth"] = some_config; /// valid?
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20110720 13:38:55< Nephro> It is , ok
20110720 13:39:04< Nephro> Anyone can give me a hint where savefiles are kept?
20110720 13:39:56< timotei21> Nephro: what os?:P
20110720 13:40:03< Nephro> linux
20110720 13:40:34< Nephro> found it
20110720 13:40:43< timotei21> it's in filesystem.cpp
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20110720 14:18:51< ancestral> Just a heads up, I thought I'd ask a couple of people about the placement of the data directory of Wesnoth in OS X going forward
20110720 14:19:58< ancestral> Basically, there's two types of data being stored in ~/Library/Wesnoth_1.x/ — temporary data like cache and add-ons/downloadable content
20110720 14:20:45< ancestral> How most other games handle it is separating the two data types, with cache still staying in Library and extra content being stored in Documents
20110720 14:21:37< ancestral> With Lion hiding the Library folder by default, it doesn't make any sense, in my mind, keeping it there. Maybe it makes sense to change the data directory to go to the Documents folder now
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20110720 14:24:45< ancestral> One compromise, to make it easier exposing the data directory, the application could create an alias in ~/Documents on launch if it doesn't exist, so the user could go to ~/Documents/Wesnoth_1.9 and it would point to the actual location in ~/Library/
20110720 14:29:28< ancestral> crimson_penguin, alarantalara
20110720 14:30:16< ancestral> Thanks
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20110720 20:23:45< mordante> servus
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20110720 21:23:24< mordante> I'm off bye
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