--- Log opened Sun Aug 07 00:00:38 2011
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20110807 08:36:53< boucman> wesbot: seen Thonsew
20110807 08:36:54< wesbot> boucman: The person with the nick thonsew last spoke 23h 11m ago.  22h 39m ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving
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20110807 09:31:26< Ivanovic> moin
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20110807 11:26:29-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 217 bugs, 326 feature requests, 21 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110807 12:34:52< CIA-57> sytyi * r50636 /trunk/src/gui/auxiliary/canvas.cpp: fixed type values misprints (especially color)
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20110807 13:51:39< Gambit> Hmmm. Why does using find_in in SLF cause a ton of spam about nonexistent variables?
20110807 13:52:12< Gambit> It should just silently ignore it.
20110807 13:55:59< Gambit> Looks like it only does it with variables inside nonexistent other variables.
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20110807 14:05:59< CIA-57> ivanovic * r50637 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): updated Indonesian translation
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20110807 16:02:24< anonymissimus> maybe we should invent some more bug statuses to get rid of the 200+ bugs; for instance "useless", "negligible" and "too hard to reproduce" may prove useful xD
20110807 16:08:08< timotei> anonymissimus, well... only what's built-in in the GNA's tracker options
20110807 16:14:04< Espreon> ...
20110807 16:19:02< Ivanovic> timotei: we can add our own options for some stuff, too
20110807 16:19:11< timotei> Ivanovic, ah. nice
20110807 16:19:15< timotei> Didn't know that
20110807 16:19:16< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: there is stuff like "won't do" and you can simply say "negligible" int he post
20110807 16:19:16< timotei> I have to go
20110807 16:19:18< timotei> laterz
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20110807 16:19:37< Ivanovic> the same for "too hard to reproduce", "irrelevant" as well as "useless"
20110807 16:19:42< Ivanovic> they all fall under "won't do"
20110807 16:20:08< anonymissimus> well consider bugs like this: http://gna.org/bugs/?17171
20110807 16:20:25< anonymissimus> it's definitely a "negligible"
20110807 16:20:31< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: it *only* needs someone going through the list and marking accordingly
20110807 16:20:43< Ivanovic> and yeah, everyone with commit privs has the rights to do so
20110807 16:21:22< Espreon> anonymissimus: I wouldn't.
20110807 16:22:16< anonymissimus> the bulk of the stacked bug reports at gna consist of reports which are in some way hard to deal with
20110807 16:22:36< anonymissimus> that is they are either hard to fix or in some way a bad report
20110807 16:22:46< anonymissimus> the ladder being the majority
20110807 16:23:07< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: like i said, if you see such a report, feel free to mark it accordingly
20110807 16:23:24< Ivanovic> Espreon: and yeah, those edges there are visible but require an artist to do better
20110807 16:23:39< Ivanovic> and things are IMO still functional, even with this rougher edge
20110807 16:23:54< Ivanovic> consider that wesnoth *IS* a hexbased game
20110807 16:24:10< Espreon> Whatever...
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20110807 16:40:13< anonymissimus> Crendgrim: can you pls try reproducing https://gna.org/bugs/?18152 again and then report there
20110807 16:42:24< Crendgrim> anonymissimus: ah, right. Thanks for reminding me.
20110807 16:42:51< Crendgrim> I'll have to find my add-on first somewhere in my last backup, though...
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20110807 16:50:10< zookeeper> well, that blending report isn't IMO negligible at all, but it might be a duplicate
20110807 16:50:53< CIA-57> anonymissimus * r50638 /trunk/src/ai/lua/lua_object.hpp: mute an MSVC warning
20110807 16:51:06< CIA-57> anonymissimus * r50639 /trunk/src/ai/lua/lua_object.hpp: fix an MSVC warning about converting from lua_number to int (possible data loss)
20110807 16:51:22< CIA-57> anonymissimus * r50640 /trunk/src/ai/lua/lua_object.hpp: fix an MSVC warning about converting from lua_number to int (possible data loss)
20110807 16:51:25< zookeeper> also, what's negligible to a coder isn't necessarily negligible to an artist
20110807 16:51:42< zookeeper> i don't recall if eleazar intended for those transitions to be improved or not, though
20110807 16:56:44< Soliton> if the high bug count in the topic bothers people we could only count bugs above a certain severity/priority.
20110807 16:57:16< Soliton> it's not useful to close bugs just because they're minor or hard to reproduce etc.
20110807 16:58:17< anonymissimus> let's be realistic: eleazar hasnt been active for quite a while now; that transition will nto be done
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20110807 16:58:51< anonymissimus> same for tons of other bugs which belong to areas of people who are no longer active
20110807 16:59:04< Soliton> s/realistic/pessimistic/
20110807 16:59:12< anonymissimus> thats another huge group of problem bugs
20110807 17:00:07< Soliton> make a list with specific examples and then we can decide what to do with them.
20110807 17:02:01< anonymissimus> a typical useless bug would be this: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?17244
20110807 17:02:15< anonymissimus> one can't just put it aside since it seems valid
20110807 17:02:25< zookeeper> err, eleazar comes and goes and that it's likely an issue won't be fixed in the next 6 months or whatever isn't a reason to say that it'll never get done and close it
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20110807 17:03:03< anonymissimus> however, nobody else reported it and there's no way to reproduce it
20110807 17:04:02< zookeeper> sure, reports like that one seems ok to close after a while
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20110807 17:06:10< anonymissimus> uh its ok for you to close it but I'm sure there is some dev here who disagrees
20110807 17:07:30< zookeeper> that's why i wouldn't close it
20110807 17:07:38< Espreon> Indeed.
20110807 17:07:40< zookeeper> but i wouldn't protest if someone did
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20110807 17:10:02< zookeeper> what's the problem with a large open bugcount anyway even if some of them are really minor issues which are unlikely to get fixed anytime soon?
20110807 17:10:55< Espreon> It kills their ego...
20110807 17:11:25< Soliton> "a typical useless bug" -> "it seems valid"  doesn't add up to me.
20110807 17:11:49< boucman> the only real probelm with high bugcount is loosing tracks of the important ones...
20110807 17:12:03< Soliton> if it's not reproducable you can mark it as works for me.
20110807 17:12:08< anonymissimus> well I hate all bugs ;)
20110807 17:12:55< Soliton> so hate on the bugs not the bug reports.
20110807 17:14:07< anonymissimus> esr doe sometimes close quite soem bugs and even without a reason, it's just that nobody notices and the bug gets forgotten
20110807 17:18:27< CIA-57> espreon * r50641 /trunk/data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/2_Speaking.cfg: We don't need to use the narrator anymore to prevent scrolling thanks to scroll=no; fixes bug #18459.
20110807 17:20:39< Espreon> Sigh....
20110807 17:22:34< Espreon> Bug #17244 sometimes happens to me. But I usually have to go in and out of fullscreen mode.
20110807 17:23:14< Espreon> ... to trigger it.
20110807 17:24:37< anonymissimus> hm ok then in that case you should post there and cna reopen it since there's a realistic chance some dev can reproduce it
20110807 17:24:58< Espreon> Why don't you try to reproduce it?
20110807 17:25:05< anonymissimus> I never use fullscreen so that can be a reason I never can reproduce it
20110807 17:25:20< Espreon> Just keep using the shortcuts to go in and out of fullscreen mode until you can't use keyboard shortcuts anymore.
20110807 17:25:38< anonymissimus> well i use some keyboard shortcuts, they always work
20110807 17:25:47< anonymissimus> when I play
20110807 17:26:03< Espreon> As I said, I have to go in and out of fullscreen mode to trigger it.
20110807 17:26:12< Espreon> You don't use fullscreen mode, thus you haven't seen the bug in action yet.
20110807 17:26:29-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 211 bugs, 326 feature requests, 21 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110807 17:26:29< anonymissimus> ok pls write that description to reproduce in teh report; I wouldnt have closed if such had been present
20110807 17:26:45< Espreon> All right then.
20110807 17:27:25< Espreon> I guess I'll also properly handle bug #17277 when I get the chance.
20110807 17:27:39< Espreon> *#17227
20110807 17:28:31< anonymissimus> back when silene fixed such a lto of bugs we were at 180-190 bugs :(
20110807 17:30:18< Espreon> Well, it would have been nice if he didn't rageleave.
20110807 17:30:58< Crendgrim> anonymissimus: bug updated; behavior is still weird.. :(
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20110807 18:27:01< anonymissimus> Espreon: I dont think he regeleft
20110807 18:27:46< anonymissimus> one of teh reasons he left is imo since he got tired of fixing other people's bugs
20110807 18:27:59< anonymissimus> which he did a lot
20110807 18:28:27< anonymissimus> but hardly left any bug he was reponsible for himself
20110807 18:46:12< Soliton> only the difficult ones like 16571.
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20110807 18:52:02< Soliton> anonymissimus: why are you not closing bugs marked as wont fix?
20110807 18:52:20< anonymissimus> should I ?
20110807 18:52:35< Soliton> what's the point in leaving them open?
20110807 18:52:46< anonymissimus> well the answer is the same for why do other devs not even mark tehm won't fix
20110807 18:53:22< Soliton> and that answer is?
20110807 18:53:48< anonymissimus> to give people a chance to step up "hey, I can reproduce this bug: ... (sensible description follows)"
20110807 18:54:20< Soliton> what does wont fix have to do with reproducability?
20110807 18:58:24< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: the usual marking for bugs that you can't reproduce should be "works for me"
20110807 18:58:44< Ivanovic> and if you *tried* ro reproduce something and you were not able to, you should mark the report accordingly
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20110807 19:00:05< anonymissimus> well of course
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20110807 19:00:28< anonymissimus> if there's no sensible bgu description I can't reproduce it :P
20110807 19:01:47< Soliton> so you ask for more info and mark it accordingly.
20110807 19:01:47< Ivanovic> then mark accordingly
20110807 19:01:51< Ivanovic> or "need info"
20110807 19:02:04< Ivanovic> simple as that
20110807 19:02:17< Ivanovic> and if there is no additional info after some reasonable time, just close the report
20110807 19:19:35< fendrin> wesbot: seen ilor?
20110807 19:19:35< wesbot> fendrin: Sorry, I don't know of ilor.
20110807 19:19:51< fendrin> wesbot: seen ilor_?
20110807 19:19:51< wesbot> fendrin: Sorry, I don't know of ilor_.
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20110807 19:41:28< Espreon> anonymissimus: ... Right.
20110807 19:41:44< Espreon> I shan't say anything more.
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20110807 20:56:24< timotei> loonycyborg, I can't recall, but did your asio implementation replace SDL_Net?
20110807 21:04:25< loonycyborg> Not yet.
20110807 21:04:51< loonycyborg> But it will eventually.
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20110807 21:29:49< anonymissimus> zookeeper: there was once some discussion about the order in which events of teh same name are executed
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20110807 21:30:09< anonymissimus> I'd expect that this would vreak much wml if it gets ever changed
20110807 21:30:18< zookeeper> yep
20110807 21:30:37< zookeeper> what would be a more sensible behaviour for it, anyway?
20110807 21:30:50< anonymissimus> since silene said once it's nto guaranteed for the future that if there are 2 events of teh same type in the same scenario that they are executed in the order in which they appear
20110807 21:31:25< anonymissimus> in my own UMC I tried to care for this by using fire_event tags, it creates lots of trouble
20110807 21:31:39< zookeeper> yeah, i remember that. i'm very much of the opinion that the current behaviour absolutely needs to be kept.
20110807 21:31:48< anonymissimus> yes
20110807 21:31:58< zookeeper> it'd result in a horrible amount of mainline breakage if it ever changed
20110807 21:32:09< zookeeper> and as you say the workarounds would be equally horrible
20110807 21:33:52< CIA-57> anonymissimus * r50642 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/scenarios/19_Showdown_in_the_Northern_Swamp.cfg: 
20110807 21:33:53< CIA-57> fixed condition checking for undead in recall list based on already cleared variable
20110807 21:33:53< CIA-57> fixed key wording
20110807 21:33:53< CIA-57> (fix for bug #17365)
20110807 21:34:23< CIA-57> anonymissimus * r50643 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/utils/sides.cfg: fixed not matching variable name
20110807 21:34:39< CIA-57> anonymissimus * r50644 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/utils/sides.cfg: removed unused macro HAVE_UNDEAD_VETERANS
20110807 21:34:55< CIA-57> anonymissimus * r50645 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/scenarios/19_Showdown_in_the_Northern_Swamp.cfg: fixed key wording (this one should not have had effect though)
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20110807 22:04:21< CIA-57> sytyi * r50646 /trunk/src/tools/schema/tag.cpp: Made class_key.mandatory_ false as default, in consctructor using config. Fixed validation bug, decreased warnings number by 7k
20110807 22:08:51< sytyi> is here anybody interested in WML validation?
20110807 22:09:35< Espreon> Maybe.
20110807 22:09:38< Espreon> Why?
20110807 22:11:42< sytyi> Maybe one of you want to view at validator?
20110807 22:12:45< Espreon> Maybe I do want to see it, but why do you want it to be seen?
20110807 22:13:09< Nephro> Espreon, it's his gsoc project. Hi, sytyi how's it going for you?
20110807 22:13:18< tschmitz> C'mon Espreon, everyone wants validation
20110807 22:13:34< Espreon> Please give me reading material.
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20110807 22:13:57< Espreon> Nephro: I knew that.
20110807 22:14:19< Nephro> I would need a wml validator since I will be writing a custom map to show off my projects results
20110807 22:14:57< tschmitz> Nephro: I was actually kinda curious how your project is going -- AI, right?
20110807 22:15:17< sytyi> the main part is done, Some code need to be reviewed by mordante. And I want to know anyone else point of view.
20110807 22:15:32< Nephro> Btw, maybe someone could make a symmetric 2 player map, so that I can stuff my AI's there to battle it out
20110807 22:15:49< Espreon> Well, explain to me what this thing will do. Is it an external tool that reads WML and sees if it's valid? If so, blargh.
20110807 22:15:54< Espreon> Details... details.
20110807 22:15:56< sytyi> Espreon: try this. http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ValidationDesign .Some details are not written yet. 
20110807 22:16:12< sytyi> Espreon: I have both variants
20110807 22:16:20< tschmitz> Nephro: there are already some 2p maps you can use, aren't there?
20110807 22:16:25< Nephro> tschmitz, it's hard. The main part is kind of done, but there's still some work to do
20110807 22:16:37< Nephro> tschmitz, right, why didn't i thought of that myself
20110807 22:16:39< Nephro> :D
20110807 22:17:05< Nephro> the ai system is pretty tangled, so every task, even a simple one requires lots of work
20110807 22:17:07< sytyi> You can use validation in your code, when reading config file. And I wrote a stand-alone util, just calling the validation.
20110807 22:17:11< Nephro> lua  is another pain
20110807 22:17:28< Nephro> but all in all it's fine
20110807 22:17:36< CIA-57> loonycyborg * r50647 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): 
20110807 22:17:36< CIA-57> Made the network transmission dialog track upload progress when uploading addons
20110807 22:17:36< CIA-57> instead of tracking the progress of downloading the server's responce.
20110807 22:17:38< tschmitz> Nephro: Think the AI will be able to communicate its plans to the player via the whiteboard? Heh heh
20110807 22:18:16< Nephro> tschmitz, I think that could be easily done after gsoc ends
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20110807 22:18:52< Nephro> but that's not actually what I am working on atm, I'm writing tools to make further scenario development easier
20110807 22:19:08< zookeeper> sytyi, so, i looked at your project page and i'm not sure what exactly it'll do for the average WML author
20110807 22:19:18< Nephro> exposing stuff to Lua, to get rid of some heavyweight classes in c++
20110807 22:19:38< sytyi> zookeeper: There still much work with writing schema file.
20110807 22:19:40< tschmitz> I see
20110807 22:20:16< Nephro> tschmitz, but anyway I like your idea
20110807 22:20:40< Nephro> I think we can implement that(if you're not going to run off after gsoc, :D)
20110807 22:20:47< Espreon> sytyi: Yes, how will this make my writing of WML more or less magical?
20110807 22:20:49< zookeeper> sytyi, yeah, but i mean that when the project's finished, how will the average UMC author benefit? will they see user-friendly error messages about broken semantics in-game? or is the validator a tool they must run on their add-on? etc
20110807 22:22:07< sytyi> zookeeper: WML authors need to create schema file
20110807 22:23:02< sytyi> zookeper, and then a coder need to call config file reading with validation using that schema file.
20110807 22:23:31< Espreon> But why?
20110807 22:23:39< Espreon> Explain the magicks.
20110807 22:23:55< zookeeper> ok, but we only need one core schema file to ship with the game, right?
20110807 22:24:14< sytyi> zookeper You can create as many schema as you can
20110807 22:24:29< sytyi> and call validation with right schema
20110807 22:25:40< sytyi> Espreon: for example now if something in data/gui/default.cfg is broken mordante can receive warning like this 20110807 22:59:16 warning validation: ../default.cfg:266: In tag label which begins here, key label have wrong value Connect to Server
20110807 22:27:44< sytyi> we can create  schema files for different contexts. Even count all config file reading calls, and have a special schema files to each of them.
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20110807 22:28:10< sytyi> and I want to add schema info into config. using macro
20110807 22:28:44 * zookeeper unfortunately doesn't get it
20110807 22:29:58< zookeeper> ok, let's imagine this: you finish the project and the other mainline developers do what they're supposed to do with the schema files and whatnot. i'm a newbie who downloads the game and starts to write a campaign. does the validator help me directly?
20110807 22:30:16< Espreon> sytyi: OK, but explain why *I* and any other WML author should care about these magicks?
20110807 22:30:20< Espreon> *magicks.
20110807 22:30:22< zookeeper> and if it does, what steps do i need to take to receive that help?
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20110807 22:30:36< sytyi> Yes. It will say you - you missed mandatory key here, and here
20110807 22:30:42< Espreon> How will it make my writing of WML easier or whatever?
20110807 22:31:14< sytyi> run wesnoth using that file, or use special validator_tool. Both variants are allowed
20110807 22:31:31< sytyi> * if schema file is written and called in wesnoth.
20110807 22:31:42< zookeeper> okay, clear so far except that i don't know what "run wesnoth using that file" means
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20110807 22:33:02< Espreon> stikonas: Perhaps if you answer my questions, zookeeper will understand as well.
20110807 22:33:06< Espreon> Whoops.
20110807 22:33:16< Espreon> I meant sytyi 
20110807 22:33:33< zookeeper> wesnoth will automatically run the validator on all the preprocessed WML, and give you nice error messages about broken semantics on startup (just like the not-so-nice error messages about broken syntax)?
20110807 22:33:37< sytyi> zookeeper: I mean that if coder turn on the validation of all campaign wml, it will write you warnings with line numbers
20110807 22:33:51< sytyi> zookeeper: yes
20110807 22:34:13< zookeeper> okay, well, sounds good to me then. better error messages are good.
20110807 22:34:28< sytyi> zookeeper: I will be very bad seller - I can't describe what I'm sekking
20110807 22:34:34< sytyi> *selling
20110807 22:34:40< Espreon> Sounds good to me as well.
20110807 22:35:35< zookeeper> the important part with any tool which is not intended only for developer use is that it's integrated into the game so the user doesn't need to run command-line tools or such
20110807 22:36:09< sytyi> zookeper, Espreon: now it looks like http://pastebin.com/XRTU8HwC
20110807 22:36:31< zookeeper> better error messages are mostly needed by the people who couldn't run a command-line tool anyway
20110807 22:36:45< sytyi> I mean the output. And now I'm working with the markup.
20110807 22:37:09< sytyi> the errors are put in log. So developer can print them anywhere
20110807 22:38:34< sytyi> Espreon:  And later I will  ask for help in creating more understandable error messages.
20110807 22:38:46< Espreon> All right.
20110807 22:39:44< sytyi> also If you run it on file with macros it says "gui/default/window/addon_connect.cfg:137 included from data/gui/default.cfg:29: error message body"
20110807 22:40:39< zookeeper> what will it output if i feed it syntactically broken WML?
20110807 22:41:12< zookeeper> like if i accidentally forget to close a quote
20110807 22:41:13< sytyi> it will output parser errors like now
20110807 22:41:19< zookeeper> okay
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20110807 22:42:23< sytyi> validation is an addon to parser, it works with tags "just-read" by parser. and if tag is not broken dont validate it.
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20110807 22:57:41< zookeeper> boucman, going to commit patch 2851 sometime soon? when it's in i can clean up feeding a bit...
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20110807 23:27:42< Gambit> The random map labels are immutable?
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20110807 23:45:50< CIA-57> elias * r50648 /trunk/data/tools/wmlunits: [wmlunits] Use the english text as fallback for missing translations. Use fixed width for unit details page.
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--- Log closed Mon Aug 08 00:00:45 2011