--- Log opened Mon Aug 15 00:00:17 2011
20110815 00:02:23< CIA-57> esr * r50780 /trunk/data/ (4 files in 3 dirs): wmllint cleanup.
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20110815 07:26:17< CIA-57> mordante * r50781 /trunk/ (CMakeLists.txt changelog): 
20110815 07:26:17< CIA-57> Add -Wno-strict-aliasing to compiler flags.
20110815 07:26:17< CIA-57> This reverts 50384, since it breaks building the unit tests with
20110815 07:26:17< CIA-57> g++ 4.4.
20110815 07:46:02< Soliton> good idea to remove an important warning from the complete build because some unit test causes it.
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20110815 09:24:03< Ivanovic> moin
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20110815 11:26:29-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 180 bugs, 328 feature requests, 19 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110815 11:28:57-!- Nephro [~Dmitry@80.233.231.12] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110815 11:30:41< Nephro> wesbot, seen Crab)
20110815 11:30:44< Nephro> wesbot, seen Crab_
20110815 11:30:45< wesbot> Nephro: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 2d 16h ago.  1d 1h ago they left with the message: Client Quit
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20110815 11:31:26< Ivanovic> Nephro: he tends to read the backlogs every now and then
20110815 11:31:33< Ivanovic> so you can just leave him a message and wait
20110815 11:32:15< CIA-57> mythological * r50782 /trunk/po/ (26 files in 26 dirs): an update of macedonian translation
20110815 11:32:16< Nephro> I better just mail him, he receives email on his mobile phone and replies pretty fast
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20110815 11:32:40< Kolbur> hello
20110815 11:33:04< Kolbur> how can i get an overview of the bot commands here?
20110815 11:33:32< Crendgrim> wesbot: help
20110815 11:33:32< wesbot> Crendgrim: I could tell you about bug(s), feature(s), task(s), patch(es), a log revision, update the topic, last seen of people... you name it.
20110815 11:33:35< Nephro> Kolbur, type "help" in his private
20110815 11:34:03< Nephro> or directly here, yes :)
20110815 11:34:23< Crendgrim> sorry :p
20110815 11:34:29< Kolbur> thx
20110815 11:38:23< Kolbur> question: how are the chances that a ranking system will ever be integrated in wesnoth? :)
20110815 11:39:13< Ivanovic> zero
20110815 11:39:26< Espreon> There is indeed no chance.
20110815 11:39:47< Ivanovic> or "as close as you can get to the definition of zero"
20110815 11:40:33< Nephro> Why so?
20110815 11:40:45< Kolbur> figured that much ;) 
20110815 11:40:47< Espreon> Because we don't want it and don't need it?
20110815 11:41:23< Kolbur> how about the chances that the ladder people can get more than one single thread in the forum? let's say a own subboard?
20110815 11:42:02< Ivanovic> the same
20110815 11:42:09< Espreon> Indeed.
20110815 11:42:30< Kolbur> cool
20110815 11:42:36< Nephro> Espreon, well, why not? A lot of games incorporate a system, where people can choose whether to play a ranked ladder or a normal one. Ranked ladders add a new level of competitiveness 
20110815 11:42:43< Ivanovic> because we as devs don't want the community in general be some competitive place
20110815 11:42:55< Kolbur> just making sure that this is no option before we move to out own forum (which is already happening)
20110815 11:43:01< Espreon> Nephro: What Ivanovic said.
20110815 11:43:01< Kolbur> *our
20110815 11:44:08< Ivanovic> Nephro: the competitivepart tends to produce lots of discussions that end with people swearing, insulting and things like this
20110815 11:44:29< Ivanovic> plus all the little kids that just say "yeah, it is the RNGs fault!!!"
20110815 11:45:01< Espreon> We don't wish to harbor a shitload of nonsense.
20110815 11:45:40< Kolbur> hehe, how is this different from normal wesnoth, Ivanovic? :P
20110815 11:46:09< Ivanovic> Kolbur: it just increases if people see "that one is right in front in the ranking"
20110815 11:46:44-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110815 11:46:52< Crab_> Nephro: hello
20110815 11:47:17< Nephro> Makes sense, but I must say, the competitive part is very important to some people. Of course, we can't do anything with the really aggressive part of the community, but imagine what an achievement it would be to create a friendly community in the ranked ladder
20110815 11:47:20< Nephro> Hi, Crab_
20110815 11:47:43< Ivanovic> Nephro: close to impossible
20110815 11:48:04< Ivanovic> and honestly, it would actually be bad to see that 95% of the devs are in the bottom of the ranking
20110815 11:48:06< Ivanovic> ;)
20110815 11:48:22< Kolbur> the community is already there, Nephro, we just get no love from the devs :(
20110815 11:48:27< Ivanovic> plus if there was some "official" ranking the incentive for cheating would be higher
20110815 11:48:50< Ivanovic> cheating by eg hacking the code to not change the display when activating FoW
20110815 11:49:22< Kolbur> you don't need to hack anything to cheat in wesnoth as it is now 
20110815 11:49:52< Ivanovic> Kolbur: you have to change config files
20110815 11:50:05< Ivanovic> and those changes will give you an out of sync error
20110815 11:50:11< Crab_> Ivanovic: no, not for every type of cheat, some just require --log-debug=
20110815 11:50:31< Crab_> there were two gsoc projects from a year ago which added some stuff which can be later used to integrate a ranking system with a existing MP server (thus allowing each community to have their own stuff, like they do now, but just with less manual actions involved to keep the rankings)
20110815 11:50:33< Kolbur> i can just make a save from ingame for example and look at everything
20110815 11:50:36< Ivanovic> RNG changes are not possible on the official server since the RNG seeds now come from the server
20110815 11:50:58< Ivanovic> and of course you can look at anything
20110815 11:51:13< Ivanovic> and setting this up to allow nicely for *official* ranked games, uhm, sucks
20110815 11:51:19< Nephro> Crab_, (1) as far as I understood, the patrolling in LoW chapter 16. is done is a stage called unit_formulas (engine = fai). What I don't get is, what is the precedence of stage execution? I.E. which stages goes first?
20110815 11:51:34< Crab_> Nephro: stages are just done in order, 1..2...3..
20110815 11:51:54< Nephro> But there is only one stage in [ai]
20110815 11:51:55< Crab_> Nephro: so just look at the ai config or hit :inspect in game, you'll see the order. 
20110815 11:52:42< Crab_> Nephro: that's because those wolf riders were a special side
20110815 11:52:49< Nephro> hm, ok... I am asking because my implementation uses the RCA loop, so I will need to provide scores for the patrollers
20110815 11:53:44< Ivanovic> Kolbur: so the only "real" way to stop this kind of "cheating" would be to only allow "no shroud/FoW" games as ranked
20110815 11:54:11< Crab_> Nephro: LoW 16 is a quite special type of patrol
20110815 11:54:11< Ivanovic> which honestly sucks, since the interesting part can be to finally see what the enemy really has as well as trying to "hide" troops so that you can surprise the enemy
20110815 11:55:01< Crab_> Nephro: the special part is that partolling units are not allowed to attack unless they come within X hexes of enemy units
20110815 11:55:24< Crab_> Nephro: that's needed because the map is small
20110815 11:56:32< Crab_> Nephro: so, a proper way to handle LoW 16 would be to deal with that 'not allowed to attack unless detected enemy' separately via WML, and make a patrol have more priority than attacking
20110815 11:57:21< Crab_> Nephro: or if you limit the attacks in a good way (so that the combat phase won't see them), you can have < than attacking, as well. but that's more tricky to get right
20110815 11:57:53< Crab_> Nephro: so, I suggest making a "patrol just before combat" type of function
20110815 11:58:37< Crab_> Nephro: and stop the patrol within X hexes of enemy and let the combat phase do the rest
20110815 11:59:15< Crab_> Nephro: in that case, your patrolling formula must be smart enough to do 'ok, the patrolling unit is within X of enemy, return bad_score()'
20110815 11:59:35< Crab_> (where bad_score is -1)
20110815 11:59:58< Crab_> ( or whatever <0 )
20110815 12:00:10< Crab_> --
20110815 12:02:31< Crab_> Ivanovic: and I think, btw, that RNG cheating might be still possible but requires a major C++ hack - it's not possible to change the RNG values, but, theoretically, it might be possible to guess, over the course of the game, the seed and modify the attack selection dialog to show the 'true' result of future combat.
20110815 12:03:19< Nephro> 'not allowed to attack unless detected enemy' separately via WML -- how can this be done?
20110815 12:03:38< Crab_> Nephro: actually, it'll work well even if you don't do this :)
20110815 12:03:43< Crab_> Nephro: so I'd leave this out.
20110815 12:04:12< Crab_> Nephro: attack aspect has parameters wrt attack limitation
20110815 12:04:37< Crab_> Nephro: so, we can only allow enemy units within 'X' hexes of our units to be attacked. that's a simplest way
20110815 12:05:26< Crab_> Nephro: or, we can think of it like ' the attack only if within X limitation is because there's invisibility potion at work, so, if the invisibility is sniffed out, should everyone get a chance to attack?', this will lead to other limits on attacking for other sides, as well.
20110815 12:05:51< Crab_> see data/ai/scenarios/ai_arena_small/0004-filtered_combat.cfg
20110815 12:06:18< Kolbur> Ivanovic: well, the ladder relies on the honor of the players in that regard and I think it worked out pretty well so far, it's just sad that this big community gets no support at all from the devs except that they grudgingly tolerate us
20110815 12:06:29< Kolbur> but it's ok, we can work around that ;)
20110815 12:06:59< Nephro> Crab_, can I just do something like this: check whether an enemy is close, if not, move to the next waypoint, check again, if someone is near then return, if not, close the move, i.e. make the move full, so that the unit can't be moved and therefore can't attack
20110815 12:07:37< Crab_> Nephro: note that if we move from A..b...c...d...E, and only within 'x of enemy' at c, we need to stop at c
20110815 12:07:48< Crab_> Nephro: that is, you need to move 1 hex a time.
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20110815 12:08:28< Crab_> Nephro: that's only for this 'sniffing invisibility'  case, not for generic patrol situation
20110815 12:10:20< Crab_> Kolbur: if you know of small feature requests that might make the ranking games easier it make sense to create a wiki/web page with them and mail/PM me about it. ladder won't be integrated in wesnothd, but some small things might be done (i.e. if there're some stuff wrt initial game randomization, etc )
20110815 12:10:34< Ivanovic> Kolbur: a fear i got (beside a possibly bad atmosphere if the ladder was an official part of the game) is mainly that it would attract cheating if it was included officially and supported officially
20110815 12:13:45< Kolbur> Crab_: i'm not exactly sure what you mean but i'll inform the important people! ^^
20110815 12:15:00< Crab_> Kolbur: i.e., it was decided that we don't want to make an official ladder in wesnoth. but I see no problems with coding some stuff which might make your life easier without dictating a presence of a 'an official ladder site'.
20110815 12:17:15< Kolbur> i see
20110815 12:17:48< Nephro> Crab_, by the way, I would need some functions to find out the hexes I will walk through during a move from A to B. That probably is the thing you told me that I would need when refactoring LoW. I suppose that such functions are implemented in C++ and I'll just need to expose them, correct?
20110815 12:18:28< Crab_> yes, they are present in C++
20110815 12:19:51< Crab_> Kolbur: there might be some feature requests already, but we have tons of those, so they tend to sit unnoticed - that's why I'm asking to bring attention
20110815 12:20:17< Crab_> Nephro: note http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML:Pathfinder#wesnoth.find_path
20110815 12:20:57< Crab_> Nephro: it does NOT do what we want, because it doesn't take get_avoid() into account.
20110815 12:21:22< Crab_> Nephro: but apart from that little fact, it's exactly what's needed to see the path the unit will take.
20110815 12:25:20< Crab_> Nephro: also note that in C++, the AI has a ai::moves_map possible_moves structure
20110815 12:25:22< Nephro> Crab_, does the current fai patrol take "avoid" into account?
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20110815 12:27:33< Crab_> Nephro: no, in fact, it uses a somewhat screwed up version of pathfinding :)
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20110815 12:28:06< Crab_> Nephro: also note that there's a ai::moves_map possible_moves structure (which is related to srcdst and dstsrc) which already contains the info about paths to all locations
20110815 12:28:26< Crab_> it's related in the following way: all three are computed at the same time.
20110815 12:31:52< Kolbur> Nephro: are you working on a general AI?
20110815 12:32:11< Nephro> ok, I'll check that out too. Last question: how do I start a specific campaign scenario for debugging purposes
20110815 12:32:36< Crab_> Nephro: enable debug mode, (-d or :debug), then hit :cl and select your scenario
20110815 12:33:06< Nephro> ok
20110815 12:33:11< Crab_> Nephro: some campaigns are not working properly in this case, but LoW should work because it uses recall-or-create syntax for all the important NPCs
20110815 12:33:49< Crab_> Nephro: i.e. if scenario X requires character C to be present, it should not [recall] him, it should make a [unit] of him, so he'd be created if not present in recall list, recalled otherwise.
20110815 12:34:14< Nephro> Well, that's why I ask. Campaigns like to use info on the players previous performance, so if I jump straight to some scenario it might act weird
20110815 12:34:29< Crab_> Nephro: if campaign is done properly it should work
20110815 12:34:58< Crab_> Nephro: I think that forward-jumping should be supported in mainline (it is not, but still...)
20110815 12:35:03< Crab_> Nephro: also you can try to experiment with timotei's syntax for jumping directly to campaign/scenario
20110815 12:36:00< Crab_> ...    ("campaign,c", po::value<std::string>()->implicit_value(std::string()), "goes directly to the campaign with id <arg>. A selection menu will appear if no id was specified.")   ("campaign-difficulty", po::value<int>(), "The difficulty of the specified campaign (1 to max). If none specified, the campaign difficulty selection widget will appear.") ("campaign-scenario", po::value<std::string>(),"The id of the scenario from the specified campaign
20110815 12:36:13< Crab_> see commandline_options.cpp
20110815 12:36:24< Crab_> don't know if it works, it worked a year ago.
20110815 12:37:49< Nephro> Crab_, ok then, I'll start the work after lunch, thanks for the help
20110815 12:37:55< Crab_> also note that if you do it properly (modify stuff in external lua file), you should be able to modify your :lua file and reload the scenario save, and get the new code (without having to launch wesnoth or reload)
20110815 12:38:26< Crab_> so you'd be able to do it like 'while (!works) {modify .lua file, load game, test }'
20110815 12:39:25< Crab_> also you can rework data/campaigns/Eastern_Invasion/scenarios/13_The_Drowned_Plains.cfg to use a patrol formula for the dragon
20110815 12:39:44< Crab_> that one is easier - no stuff with 'get to visibility of X', it just needs to fly in circles :)
20110815 12:40:14< Crab_> currently it uses shifting goals (which are slightly broken atm), but it definitely can be done easier with patrol
20110815 12:40:24< Nephro> Crab_, should I commit the changes on these scenarios or show them to you beforehand?
20110815 12:40:50< Crab_> if it works, commit
20110815 12:41:02< Crab_> just make sure it's linted
20110815 12:41:11< Crab_> (i.e. wmllint will help you indent stuff properly)
20110815 12:41:48< Crab_> we can always revert it later, if someone doesn't like it :). but I foresee no problems.
20110815 12:48:31< Crab_> also note that ideally the scenario should only contain the patrol waypoints plus a *small* part of init code
20110815 12:48:43< Crab_> this will make it easier to work with it for WML authors
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20110815 13:26:59< mordante> servus
20110815 13:29:10< Espreon> mordante: Ic grete þe.
20110815 13:29:17< mordante> hi Espreon 
20110815 13:37:06< loonycyborg> mordante: No warnings with gcc 4.4.4 for me too.
20110815 13:38:01< loonycyborg> Of course there will be warnings from boost itself if it's installed in a non-system path.
20110815 13:38:10< loonycyborg> But nothing can be done about this.
20110815 13:38:56< loonycyborg> Beside using -isystem= instead of -I
20110815 13:40:00< mordante> loonycyborg, warns for me with 4.4.5 and boost 1.42
20110815 13:40:20< loonycyborg> Are those from wesnoth's code or from boost?
20110815 13:40:55< mordante> there is a error in the boost programming options test
20110815 13:40:59< mordante> an error*
20110815 13:42:00< loonycyborg> Better pastebin the exact messages.
20110815 13:43:38< mordante> need to reproduce it, will take some time
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20110815 14:02:27< Crendgrim> how do I clean my scons build? Just remove ./build ?
20110815 14:02:51< loonycyborg> Yes.
20110815 14:02:57< Crendgrim> thanks
20110815 14:04:28< Crendgrim> okay, still the same error.. does anyone else have problems with compiling current trunk with scons?
20110815 14:04:53< loonycyborg> I don't.
20110815 14:04:59< Crendgrim> "po/wesnoth-units/mk.po:1: keyword "m" unknown po/wesnoth-units/mk.po:1:2: syntax error"
20110815 14:05:57< loonycyborg> If you don't need translations you can pass nls=false
20110815 14:06:28< loonycyborg> Wait. I compiled without the last translation update.
20110815 14:08:32< loonycyborg> Yes. I get this syntax error too.
20110815 14:09:05< loonycyborg> That po file is broken.
20110815 14:13:10< CIA-57> loonycyborg * r50783 /trunk/po/wesnoth-units/mk.po: Removed a stray 'm' from a .po file.
20110815 14:13:18< loonycyborg> Crendgrim: ^
20110815 14:14:26< Crendgrim> loonycyborg: thanks :)
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20110815 14:39:07< mordante> loonycyborg, http://paste.debian.net/126279/
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20110815 15:40:45< loonycyborg> mordante: I've finally managed to repro it with gcc 4.4.6 and boost 1.42
20110815 15:41:51< loonycyborg> gcc 4.5.2+boost 1.42 was fine, gcc 4.4.6 + boost 1.46.1 also was fine.
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20110815 16:09:39< CIA-57> elvish_hunter * r50784 /trunk/ (changelog data/lua/wml-tags.lua): Added [primary_attack] support to [harm_unit]
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20110815 16:14:28< Elvish_Hunter> After my commit above, I documented this [harm_unit] change in the wiki.
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20110815 16:31:21< loonycyborg> mordante: This issue seems to be triggered by any use of boost::tuple::get, so the only workaround for this compiler bug is to not to use boost::tuple :P
20110815 16:35:10< loonycyborg> Unless that was boost::optional :P
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20110815 17:01:20< CIA-57> thonsew * r50786 /trunk/data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/11_Clash_of_Armies.cfg: Revert r50761 Bugs are in C++ bugs related to recruitment and $this_unit not the WML
20110815 17:01:23< CIA-57> thonsew * r50785 /trunk/src/ (5 files): (log message trimmed)
20110815 17:01:23< CIA-57> Fixes for ToD and fading related bugs #18504 #18493 #18017
20110815 17:01:23< CIA-57> 1. Broke display::adjust_colors into 2 functions, update_tod() and
20110815 17:01:23< CIA-57> adjust_color_overlay(). Update_tod() called whenever (but at least once per
20110815 17:01:24< CIA-57> turn) to update the tod color shift. Adjust_color_overlay() called from the lua
20110815 17:01:24< CIA-57> color_adjust handler to apply the color_adjust on top and just once to the
20110815 17:01:25< CIA-57> display.
20110815 17:01:26< CIA-57> thonsew * r50787 /trunk/src/ (game_display.cpp game_display.hpp unit_display.cpp): 
20110815 17:01:26< CIA-57> Fix bug #16173: Using n or cl while a fake unit is moving causes the game to segfault
20110815 17:01:26< CIA-57> The problem was that the temp_unit in unit_display for fake_move is not exception safe and cl (change_level) uses an exception to jump to the next level.
20110815 17:01:27< CIA-57> The fix was to create game_display::temp_unit which removes itself from the temp_units_ dequeue upon destruction
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20110815 17:26:29-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 178 bugs, 328 feature requests, 19 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110815 18:15:15< mordante> loonycyborg, ok
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20110815 19:19:02< CIA-57> mordante * r50790 /trunk/src/whiteboard/side_actions.cpp: Initialize all members.
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20110815 19:19:06< CIA-57> mordante * r50789 /trunk/src/whiteboard/highlight_visitor.cpp: Initialize all members.
20110815 19:19:07< CIA-57> mordante * r50788 /trunk/src/tools/schema/tag.cpp: Initialize all members.
20110815 19:19:07< CIA-57> mordante * r50791 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/debug_clock.cfg: 
20110815 19:19:07< CIA-57> Fix some invalid keys.
20110815 19:19:07< CIA-57> Found by Sytyi's validation tool.
20110815 19:19:07< CIA-57> mordante * r50792 /trunk/data/gui/default/widget/horizontal_scrollbar_default.cfg: 
20110815 19:19:08< CIA-57> Fix some invalid keys.
20110815 19:19:08< CIA-57> Found by Sytyi's validation tool.
20110815 19:19:11< CIA-57> mordante * r50793 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/mp_change_control.cfg: 
20110815 19:19:11< CIA-57> Fix a tag typo.
20110815 19:19:11< CIA-57> Found by Sytyi's validation tool.
20110815 19:19:16< CIA-57> mordante * r50794 /trunk/src/ (19 files in 8 dirs): Strip trailing whitespace.
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20110815 19:33:40< tschmitz> Thanks mordante
20110815 19:34:40< mordante> you're welcome tschmitz 
20110815 19:36:48< Ivanovic> boucman, crab_, fendrin, gabba, mordante: in case you don't have too much time during the "real" eval: carols just sent a mail with the final eval questions so you can already start preparing your answers
20110815 19:37:09< mordante> Ivanovic, thanks, read it a few minutes ago ;-)
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20110815 20:10:41< Soliton> as far as i'm concerned a ladder will be integrated into wesnoth as soon as someone submits an acceptable patch for it.
20110815 20:10:59< Soliton> that does however not mean that there will be an official ladder.
20110815 20:11:19< chains> Is there anything I can do to help?
20110815 20:11:41< chains> The server has so many replay files on it that directory browsing isn't working. (Someone put all the files into the same folder...)
20110815 20:12:01< chains> I managed to delete 5000+ old replays which should have the ladder running again. 
20110815 20:12:20< Soliton> "the server"?
20110815 20:12:30< chains> The ladder server.
20110815 20:12:33< chains> ladder.subversiva.org
20110815 20:12:51< Soliton> i wouldn't know anything about that nor be able to change it.
20110815 20:12:59< chains> I know. 
20110815 20:14:06< chains> The ladder's running on a shared hosting account and run out of disk quota because of the massive number of replays. 
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20110815 20:14:28< Soliton> i see.
20110815 20:14:39< Soliton> as for helping... well i just mentioned what needs done, no?
20110815 20:14:55< chains> Ideally the ladder should link to wesnoth for downloading replays 
20110815 20:15:08< Soliton> we can work on that.
20110815 20:15:17< chains> Do you have more details on what an acceptable patch is?
20110815 20:15:41< chains> I assume this isn't something that can be done from the ladder side?
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20110815 20:16:34< Soliton> of course not that's the point, no?
20110815 20:16:42< Soliton> i feel i'm missing something here...
20110815 20:16:49< chains> I feel the same. 
20110815 20:17:36< Soliton> ok, well, i was talking about integration of a ladder or ladder support into wesnothd.
20110815 20:17:45< chains> Great. 
20110815 20:18:11< chains> What the ladder needs is some way for players to automatically match a ladder game so that the ranks aren't so easy to manipulate. 
20110815 20:19:08< chains> There have been several ideas on how to make that happen, but no one able to program something that will work. 
20110815 20:19:16< Soliton> btw, i was responding to an earlier discussion on how there is no chance of integration at all.
20110815 20:19:35< chains> *nods*
20110815 20:19:50< chains> Integration could be done with a patch or third party tool that ladder players can install on their own. 
20110815 20:19:50< Soliton> i did not mean to start a discussion about what is need or anything since i'm unlikely to get involved.
20110815 20:20:17< Soliton> the latter is not possible.
20110815 20:20:45< chains> I think the most likely course of action will be to shut down the project. 
20110815 20:21:17< Soliton> what project?
20110815 20:21:24< chains> ladder.subversiva.org 
20110815 20:21:43< Soliton> i see, it's running that bad?
20110815 20:21:53< chains> It hasn't been touched since the last time I worked on it. 
20110815 20:22:09< chains> which I believe was in 09. 
20110815 20:22:54< Soliton> heh, ok...
20110815 20:23:11< chains> Luckily the code base isn't half bad, so it has basically run itself for all this time. 
20110815 20:23:30< chains> I think rigor is handling the user complaints (so and so cheated me etc etc)
20110815 20:24:41< chains> I'm not really sure, From time to time, I get requests from various people asking for passwords to the ladder account. I refer them to eye rouge and usually they never reply again. 
20110815 20:25:01< Soliton> yeah, i've seen him argue with a regular about who was lying about stuff... neither wanted anything checked in server logs to actually have facts curiously. :-P
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20110815 20:26:10< chains> *Heh* Sounds about right. 
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20110815 20:27:00< chains> Looking at the bandwidth graph for the server, the ladder consumes 80% of the resources used by that server supplying downloads for games. 
20110815 20:27:06< chains> So it seems people are still using it. 
20110815 20:27:45< chains> could just be a quiet machine though. I can't tell. 
20110815 20:29:23< chains> Anyway, it should have what it needs to continue along for another 6 months or so. It will eventually break unless someone archives the replays or starts storing them in folders or something, but until then, it's fine. 
20110815 20:32:22< Soliton> "it's just sad that this big [ladder] community gets no support at all from the devs except that they grudgingly tolerate us"  that's a pretty ignorant statement.
20110815 20:33:13< chains> Agreed. 
20110815 20:33:38< Soliton> i guess maintaining the game you play on that ladder and the server you use is "no support".
20110815 20:34:21< Soliton> i do agree that one forum thread is a bit lame though.
20110815 20:35:06< chains> It made sense at the time. 
20110815 20:35:28< chains> We could always move the ladder forum to the ladder site, but I was afraid it would get hit by spammers and no one would do anything about it
20110815 20:36:05< chains> One thread is probably plenty, it's not like there's that much to say about it. Just endless bickering over the best way to rank it. 
20110815 20:36:20< Soliton> i guess. :-)
20110815 20:36:29< Soliton> well, Kolbur was the one discussing earlier and he mentioned something about a seperate forum.
20110815 20:37:31< chains> The only support I'd like to see from wesnoth.org is a do follow link to the ladder project on source forge so that other  games might find and use the ladder code.
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20110815 20:38:14< chains> http://sourceforge.net/projects/gamingladder/
20110815 20:38:40< Soliton> where exactly would that go?
20110815 20:39:16< chains> It's already on the site on the wiki, but the link is nofollowed 
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20110815 20:39:36< chains> (which tells google this link is either advertising or untrusted spam)
20110815 20:40:08< Soliton> no idea how to change that.
20110815 20:40:36< chains> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Competitive_Gaming
20110815 20:40:58< chains> http://tolstoy.com/php/mediawiki-remove-nofollow-tag-selected-sites
20110815 20:41:29< chains> Read the very bottom of the article for an update for 2009 wikimedia code
20110815 20:41:51< chains> We've had a couple people pick up the ladder code and make stuff with it, but no one else who's made a successful ladder with it. 
20110815 20:42:18< chains> I believe we've added branches for those projects in the ladder source forge account, but I'd have to check on that to be sure. 
20110815 20:42:35< Soliton> someone who made an unsuccessful ladder then? :-P
20110815 20:44:16< Soliton> about acceptable patches: i was thinking start small with support for surrendering games for example.
20110815 20:45:47< Soliton> and also letting wesnothd know the outcome of game in the process.
20110815 20:51:45< chains> *nods* That would be a great feature even for non competitive games. I remember people used to get very upset about "Quitters", but if people could "Surrender" people would get less upset about it.
20110815 20:52:19< chains> You could also display a conclusion screen with some stats if you knew the outcome of a match. Although I imagine that might have been added already.
20110815 20:53:12< chains> I will place a call for contributors on the ladder project and see if I can get some interested programmers. 
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20110815 20:54:45< Soliton> there is some kind of conclusion screen when time runs out (i.e. undecided) IIRC.
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20110815 21:44:10< mordante> I'm off night
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--- Log closed Tue Aug 16 00:00:18 2011