--- Log opened Mon Sep 19 00:00:22 2011
--- Day changed Mon Sep 19 2011
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20110919 01:04:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 196 bugs, 330 feature requests, 18 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110919 02:49:27< CIA-7> ai0867 * r51228 /trunk/data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/ (2_Tutorial.cfg utils.cfg): Fix the tutorial's "8 XP away from leveling" speech's trigger.
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20110919 08:23:15< Espreon> Sytyi: Hello.
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20110919 09:37:23< Ivanovic> moin
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20110919 12:05:13< Sapient> can anyone confirm a gui glitch on trunk?
20110919 12:06:04< Sapient> connect to 1.9 add-ons server and try viewing description of "All About Giles"
20110919 12:06:55< Sapient> actually add-ons.wesnoth.org:15001
20110919 12:07:40< Ivanovic> i don't see such an addon on the *default* 1.9 addon server
20110919 12:07:49< Ivanovic> so you are looking at some 1.8 content or something like this
20110919 12:08:00< Sapient> right, that's 1.8
20110919 12:08:43< Sapient> I just realized I had pointed my 1.9 client to 1.8 addons for some odd reason
20110919 12:09:14< Sapient> anyway, when you view the add-ons description for Giles you should see an interesting glitch
20110919 12:09:22< Ivanovic> but yeah, you are right that it is a weird hang that should not happen and might also appear on 1.9 content
20110919 12:09:39< Ivanovic> the issue seems to be some strange interaction between the "freaking long author field" and the gui display code
20110919 12:09:54< Sapient> I'll go ahead and file a report if it was unknown
20110919 12:10:25< Ivanovic> the author name (where no auto linebreaks are inserted) leads to the addition of a scollbar which makes things go *really* boom, not allowing me to leave this description anymore
20110919 12:10:31< Ivanovic> Sapient: yes, please do so
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20110919 12:16:29< Sapient> wesbot: bug #18691
20110919 12:16:30< wesbot> Bug #18691  Assigned to: None  Status: Confirmed  Priority: 5 - Normal
20110919 12:16:33< wesbot> Summary: GUI glitch with long add-on author field
20110919 12:16:36< wesbot> Original submission: To reproduce this glitch, browse the add-ons at add-ons.w
20110919 12:16:39< wesbot> esnoth.org:15001 and view the description of the campaign "All About Giles" (it 
20110919 12:16:42< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?18691
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20110919 13:04:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 197 bugs, 330 feature requests, 18 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110919 16:01:09< Gambit> So apparently there's a regression in 1.9.9 (and maybe trunk, I don't have time to test right now) where starting the game with --debug will make the debug options available in online multiplayer.
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20110919 16:13:29< Crendgrim> Gambit: afaik, that also works with older versions of Wesnoth... though I'm not too sure
20110919 16:14:22< Crendgrim> I think Anonymissimus once told me that this was done to make the life of UMC authors easier, with the hope that actually using the debug mode in multiplayer would cause OOS soon
20110919 16:17:02< Ivanovic> it will lead to OOS soon since there will suddenly be new units
20110919 16:17:39< Ivanovic> units that only one side knows about thus leading to "can't move here" or "hey, why are you reporting that this unit has less XP/HP?"
20110919 16:18:03< Crendgrim> except if you're using debug mode only to disable fog/shroud, and that may be done as well by editing the sources..
20110919 16:24:44< Gambit> Crendgrim: does not work in 1.8.6
20110919 16:26:24< Crendgrim> okay, then it may have been an older 1.9 version... 
20110919 16:36:11< zookeeper> sounds like that'd make fog/shroud cheating too easy
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20110919 18:28:33< Mkaysi> This is interesting. If you have white board enabled and unit which is on whiteboard dies, Wesnoth crashes at every place (Online multiplayer).
20110919 18:29:43 * Mkaysi goes to read if it's already reported.
20110919 18:33:57< Mkaysi> Hmm, it doesn't seem to be reported.
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20110919 18:39:25< anonymissimus> zookeeper: , Gambit , Crendgrim: yes, --debug to enable debug mode in networked mp works on purpose
20110919 18:39:54< anonymissimus> honestly, how could I ever have written Settler os Wesnoth without that ?
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20110919 18:40:45< anonymissimus> and imho players who know how to use this switch generally don't cheat
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20110919 18:41:11< anonymissimus> there are surprisingly few who know about such easy things
20110919 18:41:59< Mkaysi> There are people who get weird error messages and enable debug via terminal to get clearer error message.
20110919 18:42:01< anonymissimus> and forget about fog cheating being to easy, same effect can easily be done by reloading a save in a second wesnoth instance
20110919 18:43:39< anonymissimus> Gambit: I can imagine that having debug mode in your current project should be a great help too
20110919 18:44:56< anonymissimus> :inspect in networked multiplayer is the only way for resolving OOS; although the [inspect] tag in wml code works even without debug mode enabled, but it's not as interactive and much more tedious
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20110919 19:04:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 199 bugs, 330 feature requests, 18 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110919 19:05:54< anonymissimus> Mkaysi: nope, I close that report as won't fix right away
20110919 19:06:16< Mkaysi> Ok
20110919 19:06:26< Mkaysi> Which of them?
20110919 19:06:33< anonymissimus> it was agreed the way it is between silene and me; it is possible to cheat by source modifications anyway
20110919 19:07:46< Mkaysi> Do you close whiteboard crashing or that debug thing?
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20110919 19:12:55< anonymissimus> debug mode, of course
20110919 19:13:18< Mkaysi> o
20110919 19:13:22< Mkaysi> *OK
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20110919 19:21:02< vultraz> what's a whiteboard?
20110919 19:21:42< boucman> vultraz: a project that draw arrows where units will move to allow you to visualize advanced planning
20110919 19:22:17< vultraz> ooooohhhhhhhhkkkkkk......
20110919 19:23:03< vultraz> sounds interesting 
20110919 19:23:31< Mkaysi> Command "whiteboard" in testing version
20110919 19:23:33< anonymissimus> you never recognized the whiteboard ? oO
20110919 19:23:41< Mkaysi> And you can get commandprompt with ":"
20110919 19:24:30< Crendgrim> you can even toggle it via the context menu..
20110919 19:25:38< Mkaysi> You can? :OO
20110919 19:25:54 * Mkaysi knew only :whiteboard
20110919 19:29:40< anonymissimus> I know tschmitz us using debug mode in networked mp too btw
20110919 19:30:07< anonymissimus> when testing the whoteboard (of course!)
20110919 19:30:18< anonymissimus> whiteboard
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20110919 19:51:29< Gambit> anonymissimus: ...
20110919 19:51:39< Gambit> You enabled multiplayer cheating because "most people won't do it"?
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20110919 19:54:27< Gambit> [13:06:33] <anonymissimus> it was agreed the way it is between silene and me; it is possible to cheat by source modifications anyway
20110919 19:54:39< Gambit> This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
20110919 19:54:46< Gambit> It's possible to cheat so we should make it easier.
20110919 19:56:34< Gambit> It doesn't even work actually. So you're not even accomplishing your goal.
20110919 19:56:38< Gambit> You're just breaking the game.
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20110919 20:01:40< Mkaysi> (btb
20110919 20:01:51< Mkaysi> How hard is it for me to write / ?
20110919 20:01:59< Gambit> Well... hmm. I guess :inspect does actually work to cheat.
20110919 20:02:00< Mkaysi> mr
20110919 20:02:02< Mkaysi> grr
20110919 20:02:17< Mkaysi> What does :inspect do?
20110919 20:02:37< Gambit> It shows you all the units and all the variables
20110919 20:04:50< Mkaysi> Ok
20110919 20:10:16< Gambit> cjhopman: Do you have a preferred way of receiving bug reports for the android port?
20110919 20:10:21< Gambit> Someone on twitter is asking.
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20110919 20:21:47< Mkaysi> I have an suggestion about this debug thing which helps both sides, players and developers.
20110919 20:22:15< Mkaysi> Add configuration variable for allowing of debug mode to Wesnoth server config.
20110919 20:22:46< Gambit_> Yes that would have been the right way to do this.
20110919 20:22:52< Gambit_> Make it so that it doesn't break the game.
20110919 20:22:55< Mkaysi> If developers need to test their multiplayer screnarios/capmpaings/eras, they could just quickly setup their own server for debug tests.
20110919 20:22:56< Gambit_> And make it ask the server if it's okay.
20110919 20:23:02< Gambit_> And then our official server should say no.
20110919 20:24:09< Mkaysi> And enabling debug could be done with :debug, why to allow one way if one way is blocked?
20110919 20:25:32< shadowmaster> --debug is dead easy to add to a launcher/shortcut; changing the engine behavior at the source code level is not
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20110919 20:27:55< Mkaysi> Good night, I will see how does this discussion end from scrollback
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20110919 20:35:39< anonymissimus> Gambit: I did nothing
20110919 20:35:56< anonymissimus> IIRC it was crab's inspect patch adding it
20110919 20:36:16< anonymissimus> later on, I reported the issue, thinking that "cheating should be disabled" as you do now
20110919 20:36:36< anonymissimus> however, I changed my mind after I had learned better
20110919 20:37:14< anonymissimus> and silene reverted it to the exact behavior it had been due to crab's patch
20110919 20:37:50< anonymissimus> so actually, I promise you that you will like it once you need to resolve some strange OOS problem in your addon
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20110919 20:46:59< shadowmaster> content developers aren't the entirety of our audience
20110919 20:52:49< shadowmaster> hopefully observers can't change the gamestate via debug mode because of a client or server restriction
20110919 20:57:05< anonymissimus> do I get this right and there is an additional "server_config" file ? it might be the reason why wesnoth --debug doesnt allow debug mode in networked mp on the 1.8 stable server then; crab's patch was before the 1.8 release (so it actually is already present a long time with nobody complaning, one more argument)
20110919 20:59:55< anonymissimus> so you could expect that in the 1.10 stable server debug mode also won't work, and that actually makes a lot of sense since content developers who want debug mode in networked mp will probably use the dev version, players who don't want it won't
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20110919 21:06:07< shadowmaster> well, you seemed to imply at the beginning you had the whole story there, not it seems you don't.
20110919 21:06:23< shadowmaster> not sure what I should think of that.
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20110919 21:28:42< Gambit_> [14:37:50] <anonymissimus> so actually, I promise you that you will like it once you need to resolve some strange OOS problem in your addon
20110919 21:28:49< Gambit_> This is why we have error reports and save files
20110919 21:29:19< Gambit_> We should not have in-game options that cause OOS
20110919 21:29:25< Gambit_> Only bad WML should do that.
20110919 21:30:11< Gambit_> We also shouldn't make cheating so easy.
20110919 21:30:16< Gambit_> This is ridiculously easy.
20110919 21:30:29< Gambit_> Yes there are other ways, but they're hard and obscure.
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20110919 22:01:21< anonymissimus> Gambit_: no, I am 100% opposed to you here
20110919 22:02:34< anonymissimus> error reports and savegames are much more complicated and work
20110919 22:02:41< anonymissimus> and insufficient
20110919 22:05:23< Gambit_> As much as I love and often fight for UMC developers, no amount of easing our work is worth placing extra crap on the users.
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20110919 22:20:51< fabi> I have made a theme for widescreen displays.
20110919 22:21:07< fabi> It features a second unit sidebar on the left.
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20110919 22:22:45< zookeeper> fabi, screenshot?
20110919 22:23:17< fabi> zookeeper: one moment please
20110919 22:26:27< fabi> zookeeper: http://imagebin.org/173135
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20110919 22:26:59< fabi> zookeeper: time of day + hitpoints + xp are still missing, but that is only a matter of minutes.
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20110919 22:28:01< zookeeper> huh. so how can you have different units on different sides? is your selected unit on the right and any hovered-over unit on the left?
20110919 22:28:07< fabi> I thought it could be included as an extra theme. Meaning it is only active if the user does deliberately select it.
20110919 22:28:47< fabi> zookeeper: The selected unit is on the left and the right side just behaves as we are used to. Meaning the hoverd-over is on the right.
20110919 22:29:06< fabi> Switching that is of course no problem.
20110919 22:30:44< zookeeper> hard to say whether it's immediately obvious which one's which and how the unit displays really work
20110919 22:31:26< fabi> zookeeper: I can commit it, if you want to have a test run.
20110919 22:31:53< zookeeper> maybe tomorrow, not much time left tonight
20110919 22:32:12< fabi> okay
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20110919 22:44:16< anonymissimus> Gambit: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?18693
20110919 22:44:47< anonymissimus> for active debug mode cheating, just say "we have OOS, so I can't trust my opponents in thsi game"
20110919 22:44:59< anonymissimus> and an OOS game is screwed anyway
20110919 22:45:18< anonymissimus> since all active debug mode cheating causes OOS
20110919 22:46:08< anonymissimus> and for "passive" cheating it is probably more obvious to load a savegame locally from teh game I'm playing and look there
20110919 22:46:20< anonymissimus> rather than :inspect etc
20110919 22:47:01< anonymissimus> so, since it is that easy to cheat anyway, it doesnt make much sense to attempt to prevent it here
20110919 22:57:09< anonymissimus> hm obs can use all debug mode functionalities
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20110919 23:08:23< anonymissimus> here's the discussion I has with silene btw: https://gna.org/bugs/?17412
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20110919 23:27:19< CIA-7> anonymissimus * r51229 /trunk/src/side_filter.cpp: consider enemy_of(no sides) as false in SSFs
20110919 23:27:35< CIA-7> anonymissimus * r51230 /trunk/src/side_filter.cpp: 
20110919 23:27:35< CIA-7> introduced [allied_with]<SSF> in SSFs
20110919 23:27:35< CIA-7> Due to the previous revision, [not][enemy_of] is no longer the same
20110919 23:27:35< CIA-7> as [allied_with].
20110919 23:28:06< CIA-7> anonymissimus * r51231 /trunk/changelog: changelog update
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--- Log closed Tue Sep 20 00:00:36 2011