--- Log opened Sat Oct 01 00:00:19 2011
20111001 00:03:15< anonymissimus> btw does anyone else get sometimes a crash when reloading the cache with F5 ? Espreon ? I got it only 1 times or so so far
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20111001 00:03:47< Espreon> anonymissimus: I haven't noticed anything.
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20111001 00:05:45< anonymissimus> it was with my mp scenario, I'm constantly running under gdb in hope it happens again ...:(
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20111001 00:09:23< AI0867> I haven't done enough testing to run into it yet
20111001 00:12:36< anonymissimus> btw when are we going to revert the token stuff (or make the branch) ? are we reverting it/making a branch ? I could just as well stop making bug reports and use 1.9.9 like shadowmaster
20111001 00:13:19< anonymissimus> this is not fun, ti run into some bug preventing me from what I wanted to do and then spending the time to make a good report
20111001 00:18:55< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: and who would do the testing if it was in a branch?
20111001 00:19:12< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: yeah, those bug reports that take your time are vital to get stuff actually working
20111001 00:19:19< anonymissimus> why do it at all ?
20111001 00:19:42< anonymissimus> the primary motivation is debatable, like loony said
20111001 00:19:43< Ivanovic> and if it *was* all done in a branch and then merged back, the issues would still pop up because there was noone testing the branch
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20111001 00:20:10< Ivanovic> the main motivation that i see is significantly reducing memory usage
20111001 00:20:14< Ivanovic> which is a *great* motivation!
20111001 00:20:24< shadowmaster> are there any formal benchmarks yet, though?
20111001 00:20:39< anonymissimus> and like shadowmaster points out, the code got a lot less readable
20111001 00:21:04< Ivanovic> sorry, i have not been able to follow much *at all* during the last weeks
20111001 00:21:17< shadowmaster> yes, this is placing a lot of burden on client code, which kind of defeats the point of using C++ instead of C in the first place
20111001 00:21:19< Ivanovic> (and since there was nothing persistent sent to the ML, how to actually keep up?)
20111001 00:21:59< Ivanovic> what i personally have seen are many complaints in here and entries in the tracker
20111001 00:22:11< Ivanovic> but i have also seen many commits actually *fixing* reports from the tracker
20111001 00:22:14< anonymissimus> thonsew's main (and afaik sole) motivation was a significant speed increase of ai turns in some NR scenario
20111001 00:22:41< Ivanovic> if this is a change that is not desired by (several) devs, why not take it to the ML where really anyone can easily keep up?
20111001 00:23:40< Ivanovic> what i heard early on after the first commits of this stuff was some 20% reduction of memory usage in some specific cases which really sounds like a great improvement to me
20111001 00:23:55< Ivanovic> if things suck to much, take it to the ML
20111001 00:24:06< Ivanovic> list the pros and cons there and get a centralized discussion started
20111001 00:24:56< anonymissimus> Ivanovic: thonsew's bug fixes tend to introduce bugs by themselves
20111001 00:25:05< Ivanovic> and since this one *is* a change with a possibly huge impact (considering the number of bugs appearing) a discussion on the ML is probably valid
20111001 00:25:14< anonymissimus> so lots of bugfixes is not neccessarily good
20111001 00:25:17< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: the main question here is: what is the root cause of the bugs
20111001 00:25:30< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: was the code really fragile before?
20111001 00:25:41< Ivanovic> or did the changes make it this much more problematic?
20111001 00:26:09< Ivanovic> personally i somehow assume that it was already fragile before and that the changes by thonsew just show this
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20111001 00:26:38< Ivanovic> anyway, its late for me and i am heading off to bed now, n8
20111001 00:27:11< shadowmaster> aggressive optimizations like this have caused problems in the past; remember the pool-based memory allocator
20111001 00:27:50< shadowmaster> now I'm not sure if your actual intention is to delay 1.10 for the end of 2012/early 2013 again
20111001 00:28:15< shadowmaster> for us add-on authors the lack of a new stable series for so long really sucks
20111001 00:28:18< AI0867> Ivanovic: thonsew has a habit of ignoring (or being ignorant) of the details of APIs and changing them
20111001 00:28:29< AI0867> thus breaking things in random places
20111001 00:28:56< AI0867> s/) of/ of)/
20111001 00:31:30< anonymissimus> in one place in the lua api, thonsew replaced the derivation from boost::static_visitor with a derivation from a new "default_visitor" struct in config.cpp; that thing is called whenever a lua-implemented tag is called by wml...not that I really get what that static visitor is about, but I wonder why thonsew did it; replacing a dependency on a foreign library with a custom one is no wise...
20111001 00:31:32< anonymissimus> ...thing to do I guess
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20111001 00:40:21< loonycyborg> anonymissimus: The sad thing here is that fixing those bugs will probably be easier than locating and reverting all those commits
20111001 00:41:28< shadowmaster> git log --author=thonsew ;)
20111001 00:41:36< loonycyborg> Possibly some later unrelated work got dependent on them and all that.
20111001 00:43:40< anonymissimus> there are a few commits of mine which would conflict I guess, I'd take care of them
20111001 00:44:07< anonymissimus> and some by mordante
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20111001 00:45:36< anonymissimus> think of the reports which are yet to come, delaying 1.10 to end of 2012 seems likely to me
20111001 00:49:20< Espreon> Ugh...
20111001 00:49:26< Espreon> ... No.
20111001 00:49:38< Espreon> I hate having to support 1.8.
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20111001 00:52:16< AI0867> guh, I just saw the t_token stuff in game_events.cpp....
20111001 00:52:47< shadowmaster> builder.cpp has some similarly hilarious examples
20111001 00:53:15< shadowmaster> that's to be expected since terrain graphics declarations are internally quite syntax-heavy
20111001 00:54:54< AI0867> could he at least sugarise those enormous statements?
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20111001 01:00:59< AI0867> I'm coming around to the position of "benchmark it, and if it's an improvement, you can do it properly once everything has been reverted"
20111001 01:04:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 193 bugs, 332 feature requests, 17 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20111001 01:24:30< anonymissimus> is it ok to remove a feature from the wml engine which was apparently never documented in teh wiki without deprecation ? ...
20111001 01:25:24< Espreon> And what feature did you have in mind?
20111001 01:25:54< anonymissimus> default side=1 in store_starting_location
20111001 01:26:14< Gambit> yes we need to hunt down all of the defaulting to side 1 stuff
20111001 01:26:21< Espreon> Indeed.
20111001 01:26:25< shadowmaster> add a deprecation warning and wmllint rule
20111001 01:26:26< AI0867> it was probably used
20111001 01:26:29< Gambit> I thought I had found them all last year this time...
20111001 01:27:00< anonymissimus> no, i have a list of remaining tags, all of them are somewhat problematic in one way or another
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20111001 01:30:12< anonymissimus> if I add a deprecation warning, SSF support can only be introduced once that deprecation is over, thats the disadvantage
20111001 01:33:26< AI0867> Ivanovic: how do you feel about adding a _"%a %b %d %I:%M %P %Y" (AM/PM) alongside every _"%a %b %d %H:%M %Y" (24-hour) ?
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20111001 01:34:03< AI0867> reasoning here is that most strftime format strings are translatable, but 12/24 hour preferences don't align along language boundaries
20111001 01:34:26< AI0867> I'm not entirely sure it's worth the effort though
20111001 01:34:58< AI0867> the 24/12 choice would become a preference, possibly with a default from the language
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20111001 08:15:34< Ivanovic> AI0867: honestly, i don't care much about the time format
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20111001 10:16:25< Crendgrim> hum.. does anyone else have problems accessing wesnoth.org?
20111001 10:22:47< Espreon> No.
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20111001 10:23:02< Crendgrim> okay, atomicbomb has the same... "server not found"
20111001 10:23:24< Crendgrim> I was browsing the forums and it suddenly stopped; that's weird
20111001 10:23:57< Crendgrim> with the IP address it's working? huh?
20111001 10:28:58< atomicbomb> Still got da problem
20111001 10:29:30< atomicbomb> It's working if I use the IP to access it
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20111001 11:07:29< Soliton> the dns server of my isp forgot about wesnoth.org as well.
20111001 11:07:38< Soliton> no idea what that is about.
20111001 11:11:10< boucman> wesbot: seen noy
20111001 11:11:10< wesbot> boucman: The person with the nick noy last spoke 6d 16h ago.  1d 9h ago was here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: Quit: noy
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20111001 12:18:30< CIA-7> ivanovic * r51351 /trunk/po/ (7 files in 7 dirs): updated Korean translation
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20111001 12:41:42< boucman> wesbot: log 49853
20111001 12:41:43< wesbot> boucman * r49853 : change animation cycling to be decided by WML instead of hardcoded, only visible effect is that drakes should flap their wing properly in a number of border cases. Please use with caution
20111001 12:41:47< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=49853
20111001 12:41:58< boucman> ookayy
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20111001 12:43:17< boucman> bisection finished :)
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20111001 12:50:57< AI0867> Ivanovic: espreon does, but the question here is whether we should bother translators with it
20111001 12:51:23< Ivanovic> IMO times in am/pm suck!
20111001 12:51:25< Ivanovic> ;)
20111001 12:51:59< AI0867> same here
20111001 12:52:06< AI0867> tell that to espreon
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20111001 13:34:57< boucman> Espreon: ok, found the bug, implementing the fix now
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20111001 13:44:22< Kolbur> hello
20111001 13:48:01< Mkaysi|ZNC> Soliton: 8.8.8.8, 8.8.4.4
20111001 13:48:59< Kolbur> someone killed the wesnoth dns?
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20111001 13:58:21< Mkaysi|ZNC> What is wesnoth dns?
20111001 13:58:34 * Mkaysi|ZNC answered to
20111001 13:58:38< Mkaysi|ZNC> <Soliton> [12:07:29] the dns server of my isp forgot about wesnoth.org as well.
20111001 14:02:13< Kolbur> that's what i meant, i have the same problem 
20111001 14:02:28< CIA-7> boucman * r51352 /trunk/src/unit_animation.cpp: fix bug 18685 : unit selection animation not working properly
20111001 14:02:45< loonycyborg> Kolbur: Use 8.8.8.8 as your dns server
20111001 14:04:30< loonycyborg> Wait. It fails too.
20111001 14:07:06< loonycyborg> Use 65.18.193.12 instead of wesnoth.org :P
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20111001 14:08:06< Kolbur> thx
20111001 14:09:15< AI0867> 8.8.8.8 looks up wesnoth.org fine for me
20111001 14:09:36< Crendgrim> loonycyborg: well, but how to access the forums then?
20111001 14:09:40< Crendgrim> or the Wiki?
20111001 14:10:18< AI0867> Crendgrim: do you know how to edit your hosts file?
20111001 14:11:05< loonycyborg> AI0867: That's what I get: http://pastebin.com/HyPnES0d
20111001 14:11:26< Crendgrim> AI0867: good idea... silly me
20111001 14:11:27< AI0867> my router says: Host wesnoth.org not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
20111001 14:11:33< loonycyborg> However www.wesnoth.org still works, probably because the responce got cached when dns worked.
20111001 14:11:39< AI0867> 8.8.8.8 says
20111001 14:11:42< AI0867> wesnoth.org has address 65.18.193.12
20111001 14:11:42< AI0867> Host wesnoth.org not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
20111001 14:11:42< AI0867> Host wesnoth.org not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
20111001 14:11:52< AI0867> same as 8.8.4.4
20111001 14:12:02< loonycyborg> It got it from cache probably.
20111001 14:12:20< AI0867> yeah, neither can find forum.wesnoth.org 
20111001 14:13:56< Crendgrim> hum.. wesnoth.org I can access now (with an edited hosts file), but not forum.wesnoth.org
20111001 14:14:03< Crendgrim> (and neither wiki)
20111001 14:14:26< Gambit> Too bad /wiki and /forums were disabled
20111001 14:14:31< loonycyborg> Add forum.wesnoth.org to hosts file too then..
20111001 14:15:05< Crendgrim> hum.
20111001 14:15:27< AI0867> Crendgrim: what loonycyborg said
20111001 14:15:31< AI0867> that was what I meant
20111001 14:15:38< Crendgrim> something is not okay today... :(
20111001 14:15:38< Gambit> ah
20111001 14:15:51< Gambit> thanks loonycyborg
20111001 14:16:44< Alarantalara> or try forums.wesnoth.org, since I believe that's what shadowmaster wants for connection (and it still has information)
20111001 14:17:49< Alarantalara> or not
20111001 14:18:20< Gambit> add these to /etc/hosts
20111001 14:18:20< Gambit> 65.18.193.12    wesnoth.org
20111001 14:18:20< Gambit> 65.18.193.12    forums.wesnoth.org
20111001 14:18:30< Gambit> and one for wiki.wesnoth.org if you want
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20111001 14:33:54< Mkaysi> Gambit: Is that static IP?
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20111001 14:36:03< loonycyborg> Mkaysi: It is. But it may change from year to year.
20111001 14:36:19< loonycyborg> When you forgot that you added those hosts entries :P
20111001 14:37:12< Mkaysi> Ok
20111001 14:38:02< Mkaysi> topic append: At 1.10.2011 you added wesnoth.org to /etc/hosts . If you can't connect to there, remove wesnoth.org entries
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20111001 17:30:57< Crendgrim> are Lua function calls cached somewhere?
20111001 17:33:58< anonymissimus> Crendgrim: what experienced bahvior makes you think that ?
20111001 17:34:17< anonymissimus> afaik no
20111001 17:34:25< Crendgrim> okay, then there's a weird bug somewhere...
20111001 17:35:11< Crendgrim> I have a custom tag which is kind of a "special [if]" (as you cannot define custom conditional tags), and it doesn't seem to fire for the [else] tag
20111001 17:37:14< Crendgrim> oh, it does fire, but it doesn't save the actions for some reason... hum
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20111001 17:58:33< Talad> Hi
20111001 17:58:37< Talad> did you see noy recently?
20111001 17:59:56-!- horon [~horon@nttkyo340050.tkyo.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
20111001 18:02:24< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen noy
20111001 18:02:24< wesbot> Ivanovic: The person with the nick noy last spoke 6d 23h ago.  1d 16h ago was here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: Quit: noy
20111001 18:08:16< anonymissimus> wesbot: seen nephro
20111001 18:08:16< wesbot> anonymissimus: The person with the nick nephro last spoke 9d 6h ago.  9d 6h ago they left with the message: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
20111001 18:08:33< anonymissimus> wesbot: seen neph
20111001 18:08:33< wesbot> anonymissimus: Sorry, I don't know of neph.
20111001 18:08:36< anonymissimus> wesbot: seen neph_
20111001 18:08:37< wesbot> anonymissimus: Person, who 24d 19h ago used nick neph_, last spoke 20d 3h ago.  20d 2h ago as Nephro they left with the message: Read error: Connection reset by peer
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20111001 18:16:45-!- Drakefriend [~Drakefrie@31-19-75-43-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #wesnoth-dev ["Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is"]
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20111001 19:04:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 192 bugs, 332 feature requests, 17 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20111001 19:49:40< SigurdTheDragon> anonymissimus: I'm think I'm getting that reload cache f5 crashing too, haven't tried to figure it out yet, but sometimes it's very frequent, and I have to flush the cache to get wesnoth to run again.
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20111001 20:13:43< vultraz> is something wrong with the wesnoth website?
20111001 20:13:50< vultraz> can't access it
20111001 20:15:10-!- SigurdTheDragon [1865eeac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.101.238.172] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20111001 20:16:42< Gambit> vultraz: see the topic of #wesnoth
20111001 20:17:13< Gambit> about the IP
20111001 20:17:50< vultraz> ok
20111001 20:18:06< vultraz> but that doesn't help for navigating, as all the links still fail :S
20111001 20:19:06< vultraz> what's the problem, anyway
20111001 20:19:13< vultraz> ip reallocation?
20111001 20:20:28< vultraz> ah...
20111001 20:20:33< vultraz> read up
20111001 20:20:37< vultraz> I*
20111001 20:21:10< vultraz> someone forgot to pay the bills ;)
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20111001 20:49:43< anonymissimus> Sigurd: ok then...make a report pls when you manage to get a backtrace
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20111001 20:50:06< anonymissimus> Gambit: whyt about the IP ? I dont get it
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20111001 20:50:53< Mkaysi|ZNC> http://wesnoth.org/ can only be accessed throught the IP
20111001 20:51:25< anonymissimus> and how does one do that ?
20111001 20:51:32-!- dtiger [~dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-17-139.telecom.by] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20111001 20:51:55< AI0867> throw stuff into a hosts file
20111001 20:52:09< AI0867> the DNS entry got lost
20111001 20:52:14< Gambit> you can literally put the IP address in your browser, but that won't help with the forums
20111001 20:52:20< Gambit> anonymissimus: edit /etc/hosts
20111001 20:52:38< Gambit> add the following:
20111001 20:52:39< Gambit> 65.18.193.12    wesnoth.org
20111001 20:52:39< Gambit> 65.18.193.12    forums.wesnoth.org
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20111001 20:53:08< anonymissimus> how does one do it on windows ?
20111001 20:53:42< Gambit> Oh I thought you had switched to Linux
20111001 20:53:48< Gambit> No idea
20111001 20:53:56< Gambit> You probably can't easily.
20111001 20:54:04< Alarantalara> it's at %SystemRoot%\system32\drivers\etc\hosts
20111001 20:54:10< Alarantalara> so almost the same
20111001 20:54:19< Gambit> oh neat
20111001 20:54:38< AI0867> back from when they plugged the BSD TCP/IP stack into windows 95 or so
20111001 20:55:23< fendrin> AI0867: Yeah, you beat me to telling it. MS had an unlucky hand with tcp/ip stack until they took open source and went with it.
20111001 20:57:19< anonymissimus> how long is this problem with the forums expected to last ? more importent, with the wiki ?
20111001 20:57:38< AI0867> I believe someone has been notified
20111001 20:57:46< AI0867> but DNS updates may take up to 48 hours to propagate
20111001 20:58:03< anonymissimus> before I start editing some system files...
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20111001 21:00:49< Gambit> you can add a similar line for anything on Wesnoth
20111001 21:01:24< Gambit> wiki, replays, irclogs, r, addons
20111001 21:01:25< Mkaysi|ZNC> Gambit: Does that fix links?
20111001 21:01:37< AI0867> yes
20111001 21:01:40< Mkaysi|ZNC> At http://65.18.193.12/
20111001 21:01:46< AI0867> ah, no
20111001 21:01:57< AI0867> but if you add hosts entries, that does fix it
20111001 21:01:59< Gambit> Mkaysi|ZNC: you won't need that anymore
20111001 21:02:03< Gambit> you can just use wesnoth.org
20111001 21:02:26< Mkaysi|ZNC> When did you fix it? :O
20111001 21:02:38< Gambit> you won't need it after editing those files I mean
20111001 21:03:17< Gambit> the problem is just that your computer is unable to look up what IP address "wesnoth.org" points at
20111001 21:03:21< Gambit> So you explicitly tell it
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20111001 21:13:49< shadowmaster> I hear wesnoth.org's DNS entries are borked? they appear to work for me
20111001 21:14:09< shadowmaster> oh, I was at least 8 pages up the backlog, it seems
20111001 21:14:27< Gambit> They're still borked afaik
20111001 21:14:40< shadowmaster> they work for me and I don't have a local cache
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20111001 21:15:59< Gambit> Your closest dns server was slow to "lose" them?
20111001 21:16:45< shadowmaster> it could be doing some caching of its own to speed up things, mobile broadband at all...
20111001 21:17:06< shadowmaster> *and
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20111001 21:30:51< Espreon> boucman: Ah, cool. Thanks.
20111001 21:31:06< boucman> np, the mistake was mine to start with...
20111001 21:36:09< Espreon> boucman: Is it possible to have units flash without having their standing animations start all over?
20111001 21:36:47< boucman> no, not with the current animation structure...
20111001 21:37:06< Espreon> Oh well.
20111001 21:37:08< boucman> we play a specific animation, we don't paint it over the existing one...
20111001 21:37:25< boucman> but we can make the unit wave at you when you select it :P
20111001 21:37:41< boucman> care to recycle the peasant idle animation into a selection animation ? :D
20111001 21:38:45< Espreon> Hmmm, it takes forever for saurians to start walking and to start attacking...
20111001 21:38:49< Espreon> It's rather irritating.
20111001 21:38:59< boucman> huh ?
20111001 21:39:05< boucman> animation related ?
20111001 21:39:13< Espreon> Yeah.
20111001 21:39:22< Espreon> Units without standing animations don't suffer from that.
20111001 21:39:49< boucman> that's weird... does disabling the standing anim help ?
20111001 21:40:40< Espreon> And now it's impossible to disable standing animations!
20111001 21:41:20< boucman> you need to remove them from the CFG to test what I want to test anyway
20111001 21:42:10< Espreon> OK, but I think it's a problem that it is now impossible to disable standing animations.
20111001 21:43:29< AI0867> why is it impossible?
20111001 21:43:52< Espreon> ... Because it is?
20111001 21:44:01< Espreon> I disabled it in preferences and nothing happened.
20111001 21:44:10< Espreon> boucman: OK, commenting out the standing animation helped.
20111001 21:44:17< AI0867> a thonsew bug?
20111001 21:44:32< Espreon> Who knows?
20111001 21:44:45< boucman> AI0867: probably not, my guess is that the saurians finish their standing anims before the mvt anim starts...
20111001 21:44:55< boucman> does the wolf rider show the same problem ?
20111001 21:45:12< AI0867> boucman: that is a "known bug", though I thought it had been fixed
20111001 21:45:20< AI0867> but the "impossible to disable" thing is new
20111001 21:45:24< Espreon> boucman: No.
20111001 21:45:32< Espreon> I guess it's just a problem with the Saurians.
20111001 21:46:13< boucman> makes sense if my hypothesis is right... or maybe it's a weird interaction with pre-mvt anims (used for drake lift-off and landing)
20111001 21:46:23< boucman> AI0867: what is known bug ?
20111001 21:47:35< AI0867> the "finishing their animations before starting the next one, thus delaying things if they're long" thing
20111001 21:47:54< AI0867> with regard to standing and running animations before fights
20111001 21:48:07< boucman> mkay
20111001 21:49:12< AI0867> using "known bug" as meaning "something fairly obvious that many players know but possibly nobody bothered to report"
20111001 21:51:47< boucman> :P
20111001 22:05:14< fendrin> hi
20111001 22:05:30< Espreon> Hello.
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20111001 23:33:49< shadowmaster> at last, I get NXDOMAIN for wesnoth.org from my ISP's servers
20111001 23:34:15< shadowmaster> time to follow my own advice
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20111001 23:55:48< CIA-7> ivanovic * r51353 /trunk/ (7 files in 7 dirs): updated Korean translation
--- Log closed Sun Oct 02 00:00:19 2011