--- Log opened Fri Oct 28 00:00:19 2011
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20111028 01:04:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 172 bugs, 327 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20111028 01:30:42< shadowmaster> beetlenaut: hi
20111028 01:30:56< beetlenaut> Hi.
20111028 01:31:06< beetlenaut> You caught me at my computer!
20111028 01:31:17< shadowmaster> did you read what I said before about the changelog and the AMLA XP changes?
20111028 01:31:44< beetlenaut> Yes.
20111028 01:32:09< beetlenaut> I'm not sure what to do about *raising* the AMLAs though, because some people didn't like it.
20111028 01:32:32< beetlenaut> What do you guys usually do in this situation? Vote?
20111028 01:33:07< beetlenaut> Or is someone ultimately in charge?
20111028 01:33:21< shadowmaster> I think the procedure the last time such an important change was made (2007?) was requesting feedback in the ML before proceeding
20111028 01:33:49< beetlenaut> ML?
20111028 01:34:09< shadowmaster> the developers' Mailing List, which Ivanovic probably told you to subscribe to when you were given commit access
20111028 01:34:48< shadowmaster> (IIRC 1.3.x changed the default AMLA effects and the XP requirement was raised from 100 to 150)
20111028 01:35:06< beetlenaut> I don't remember that...do you have a link to the sign-up for the list?
20111028 01:35:28< beetlenaut> I wasn't actually thinking that this was a very large change, but perhaps it is.
20111028 01:35:51< shadowmaster> https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev/
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20111028 01:36:22< shadowmaster> eek
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20111028 01:36:31< shadowmaster> https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev/
20111028 01:37:11< beetlenaut> Sorry, Internet issues. I live far from a city, and it's flaky.
20111028 01:38:09< shadowmaster> I know how that feels, myself :(
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20111028 01:41:47< beetlenaut> I subscribed to the list.
20111028 01:43:10< shadowmaster> sending a message at wesnoth-dev@gna.org explaining the situation, the problems you found and asking for ideas about what to do would be the next step, then
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20111028 01:47:48< anonymissimus> beetlenaut: I'm concerned about 250 amla xp for delfador since he *needs* several amlas with his 55 start hps
20111028 01:48:00< anonymissimus> in hasty alliance
20111028 01:48:08< anonymissimus> for instance
20111028 01:48:22< anonymissimus> similar for desert star
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20111028 01:49:53< shadowmaster> Desert Stars are healers and should be treated as such, though, meaning you should not be allowing them to fight alone in the front lines.
20111028 01:50:12< beetlenaut> What about lowering the XP requirement for Zhul and Delfador?
20111028 01:50:30< beetlenaut> I don't think the Stars need more in general, but Zhul is a hero.
20111028 01:50:40< shadowmaster> Doesn't Delfador have the Intelligent trait?
20111028 01:51:08< beetlenaut> Yeah, so the 250 really means 200, and 150 meant 120.
20111028 01:55:06< shadowmaster> I'm not sure about my campaigns yet either. (I've always tried to encourage not using the high-level protagonists to do most of the fighting and killing wherever possible, but there are scenarios in which they are pretty much the only viable choice, and I tend to fail at balancing vs. plot compromises, etc.)
20111028 01:56:53< anonymissimus> shadowmaster: 1. I think you know that I know that 2. I think you know that in UtbS it can't occasionally be avoided that heavy hitters can reach the desert stars
20111028 01:58:18< anonymissimus> in fact, the only strategy in the subterranean struggle working for me was spamming desert hunters
20111028 01:58:42< anonymissimus> attacking with any valuable units results inevitable in loosing some of them
20111028 01:58:56< shadowmaster> 2 tends to be the case always, regardless of the campaign, which significantly decreases the chances of obtaining a L4 healer.
20111028 01:59:17< shadowmaster> whenever it's technically feasible, that is.
20111028 01:59:34< shadowmaster> of course, I'd not use a UtBS unit as a benchmark at this point.
20111028 02:05:00< beetlenaut> I was just looking at a UtBS replay, and I don't think you can get Zhul an amla before the underground scenarios anyway. Not if you got as many high-level units as you needed.
20111028 02:05:36< beetlenaut> Delfador is a different story of course.
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20111028 02:17:20< anonymissimus> i generally center on getting 2 desert stars and kaleh as high as possible
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20111028 02:17:35< anonymissimus> 2 desert stars is the main objective in any case
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20111028 02:19:03< beetlenaut> Yeah, I had two desert stars by subterranian struggle, but getting each one even one amla would have been really tough, even with the lower requirements.
20111028 02:19:50< beetlenaut> That's why I don't think raising the requirements would make much difference in their case.
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20111028 02:21:01< beetlenaut> We can put Delf back to 150 or maybe 200?
20111028 02:21:41< anonymissimus> i agree on the amla getting for desert stars
20111028 02:21:58< anonymissimus> not possible before the underground scenarios
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20111028 02:45:12< Espreon> shadowm_laptop: We use <b> to mark keys, dialog names, and so forth.
20111028 02:45:33< Espreon> Yeah, keys as in keys on a keyboard.
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20111028 02:45:52< shadowmaster> label = _ "You can use <b>Alt</b> and a number key to set the starting position for a player, and <b>Delete</b> to clear the starting position under the cursor. Pressing a number key alone will scroll to the corresponding starting position."
20111028 02:46:01< shadowmaster> that would be correct, then?
20111028 02:46:09< Espreon> Yes.
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20111028 03:01:39< CIA-64> beetlenaut * r51687 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog): Added an entry about changed AMLA requirements.
20111028 03:02:23< shadowmaster> and RELEASE_NOTES!
20111028 03:03:20< beetlenaut> oh drat.
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20111028 03:13:07< CIA-64> beetlenaut * r51688 /trunk/RELEASE_NOTES: Added a note about the changed AMLA requirements.
20111028 03:15:54< Alarantalara> I just took a look at this patch https://gna.org/patch/?2992. Does anyone mind if I mark it won't do. It's two spelling corrections to comments, the addition of an empty if clause, a changelog update and an about.cfg update
20111028 03:18:01< shadowmaster> I'd mark it "Won't Do" on grounds of containing a smiley in the comments, but I also noticed one of the spelling fixes misses another mistake on the same line. I don't think it'd hurt to apply thecorrections nevertheless (GUI2's internal comments and documentation comments are awfully in need of some revisions).
20111028 03:20:17< shadowmaster> Then again, any random person could go and do that given time and energy.
20111028 03:22:48< Alarantalara> okay, marked as Won't Do with slightly friendlier reasons
20111028 03:23:09< shadowmaster> :)
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20111028 03:26:36< beetlenaut> shadowmaster: Do you agree with putting Delfador back to 150? Anyone else want to weigh in?
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20111028 03:27:34< shadowmaster> I don't know. Maybe ask zookeeper since he maintains HttT?
20111028 03:27:39< shadowmaster> (I really, really suck at balancing.)
20111028 03:31:38< beetlenaut> Oh, right. Ask the mainainer. I should have thought of that!
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20111028 04:07:47< CIA-64> espreon * r51689 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_Hammer_of_Thursagan/utils/abilities.cfg: Added missing initial space to a special notes macro.
20111028 04:07:52< CIA-64> alarantalara * r51690 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics.cfg: fix layering of chasms w/ bridges for all castles except dwarven. Partial fix for bug #18873
20111028 04:12:21< CIA-64> shadowmaster * r51691 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): (log message trimmed)
20111028 04:12:21< CIA-64> gui2/teditor_set_starting_position: Converted old GUI1 starting positions tool menu to GUI2
20111028 04:12:21< CIA-64> * Added a column displaying existing starting locations' coordinates to
20111028 04:12:21< CIA-64> the player numbers list
20111028 04:12:21< CIA-64> * May have made the player number entries easier to translate
20111028 04:12:22< CIA-64> * Removed overly long infodump about hotkeys that's already part of the
20111028 04:12:23< CIA-64> tooltip on the editor palette anyway.
20111028 04:12:45< Espreon> Huzzah.
20111028 04:13:29-!- ivanovic_pandora [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20111028 04:13:58< Espreon> ivanovic_pandora: Hello.
20111028 04:14:42< ivanovic_pandora> hi Espreon 
20111028 04:14:57< Espreon> Havin' fun?
20111028 04:15:04 * ivanovic_pandora is currently sitting at SFO where he found a power plug!
20111028 04:15:29< Espreon> Yay!
20111028 04:15:36< ivanovic_pandora> complementary wifi "video ad supported" works lovely thanks to adblock!
20111028 04:15:51< ivanovic_pandora> ^^
20111028 04:16:15< ivanovic_pandora> i expect to be back home in some 30h
20111028 04:16:19< Espreon> ivanovic_pandora: You've noticed that our outlets kinda look like faces, yes?
20111028 04:16:40< shadowmaster> They are hilarious.
20111028 04:16:56< ivanovic_pandora> i noticed that your outlets suck compared to european ones
20111028 04:17:09< ivanovic_pandora> especialy regarding how firm plugs are connected
20111028 04:17:21< Espreon> Yeah.
20111028 04:17:57< Espreon> Once a lower part breaks, it gets worse...
20111028 04:18:19< Espreon> Well, if you're using a three-pronged plug.
20111028 04:18:44< ivanovic_pandora> only got the two pronged ones here
20111028 04:19:18< Espreon> Hmmm, then it should be that problematic.
20111028 04:19:21< Espreon> *shouldn't
20111028 04:19:21< ivanovic_pandora> that is: the nook came with a us usb power adapter, which is kinda nice
20111028 04:19:40< ivanovic_pandora> but for basically everything i got the adapter to eu plugs which just works
20111028 04:20:01< ivanovic_pandora> its not problematic
20111028 04:20:01< ivanovic_pandora> those plugs are just not sturdy
20111028 04:20:13< ivanovic_pandora> especially not if i also consider more heavy acs
20111028 04:20:18< CIA-64> alarantalara * r51692 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/mountains.cfg: adjust base values for narrow long mountains. Fixes bug #18874
20111028 04:21:00< ivanovic_pandora> hmmm, somehow i am a little disappointed
20111028 04:21:34< ivanovic_pandora> i thought you would by now have managed to drop the bug number into the two digit area
20111028 04:21:45< ivanovic_pandora> or at least below 150...
20111028 04:22:04< ivanovic_pandora> ;)
20111028 04:22:17< Alarantalara> But the people... they submitted 8 bugs in the last 2 days
20111028 04:22:43 * shadowmaster is about to kill a bug.
20111028 04:23:01< ivanovic_pandora> shadowmaster: yeah, smash it sead!
20111028 04:28:10< Espreon> ivanovic_pandora: Well, as long as you've noticed that our plugs kinda look like faces, all is well.
20111028 04:28:41< ivanovic_pandora> how is this supposed to help?
20111028 04:28:58< Espreon> It's not.
20111028 04:29:10< Espreon> It's just fun to know.
20111028 04:31:13< ivanovic_pandora> most annoying thing about the us: everything here is sooooo noisy
20111028 04:31:49< Espreon> Not everything. Just most things.
20111028 04:31:51< ivanovic_pandora> no matter if it is the noise of the cars, the noise of/inside public transport or the sirens
20111028 04:32:29< ivanovic_pandora> all that stuff appears to be significantly louder than in germany
20111028 04:32:38< Gambit> Where in the US?
20111028 04:33:44< ivanovic_pandora> san francisco as well as the bay area
20111028 04:33:55< Espreon> Oh, then no wonder.
20111028 04:34:23< Espreon> If you're in a big city... then you are going to hear a lot of noise. There's no avoiding it.
20111028 04:35:50< ivanovic_pandora> Espreon: ehm, sunnyvale/mountain view count as "big city"?
20111028 04:35:50< ivanovic_pandora> and they are more noisy than the ruhr metropolitan area which is the area of europe with the highest population density
20111028 04:35:51< ivanovic_pandora> so yeah, the comparison should be rather fair
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20111028 04:36:37< Espreon> ivanovic_pandora: I don't know those areas.
20111028 04:36:43< Espreon> ... nor have I been to them.
20111028 04:37:03< Espreon> And I'll probably never go to them.
20111028 04:38:26< Alarantalara> The population density in San Francisco is about double the most populated area in Ruhr
20111028 04:39:33< ivanovic_pandora> Alarantalara: going into the town centers it should be similar
20111028 04:39:50< ivanovic_pandora> and the comparison also holds true with brussels or berlin
20111028 04:40:10< ivanovic_pandora> the general noise level is just rather high
20111028 04:40:38< Espreon> Well, too bad. That's the way things are.
20111028 04:41:06< Espreon> If you don't like that "la mano"'s "la mano", then too bad. Things are just the way they are.
20111028 04:41:29< Alarantalara> Alternatively, it's twice the population of Berlin in 2/3rds the area
20111028 04:42:25< ivanovic_pandora> Espreon: jepp
20111028 04:42:25< ivanovic_pandora> this was just an observation
20111028 04:42:31< Espreon> Yup.
20111028 04:42:43< Gambit> I definitely could not live in a city.
20111028 04:42:54< Espreon> Nor could I.
20111028 04:44:21< ivanovic_pandora> what defines a city in those regards?
20111028 04:44:45< ivanovic_pandora> Alarantalara: okay, and how does this explain the noise level in a small town like sunnyvale?
20111028 04:44:47< ivanovic_pandora> ;)
20111028 04:45:04< Espreon> ivanovic_pandora: Anything that's not a nice, quiet neigborhood or the like.
20111028 04:45:20< Gambit> No screw neighborhoods too.
20111028 04:45:40< Gambit> My nearest neighbor should be at least a football field and a half away.
20111028 04:46:24< CIA-64> shadowmaster * r51693 /trunk/ (5 files in 5 dirs): Fixed remaining time of day areas that should affect map borders in mainline campaigns and MP scenarios (bug #16508)
20111028 04:47:08< Alarantalara> I don't know
20111028 04:47:12< melinath> helper.get_variable_array fails if the array length is undefined... for example, if the variable itself is undefined. Is this intentional, or a bug?
20111028 04:47:57< shadowmaster> melinath: 1.9.9 or trunk HEAD?
20111028 04:48:02< Alarantalara> where I am I blame major highways that are not nicely isolated from residential areas (like the ones in Germany)
20111028 04:49:17< melinath> shadowmaster: 1.9.9
20111028 04:49:20< Alarantalara> Of course, I'm thinking of this highway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_401
20111028 04:49:50< shadowmaster> melinath: it could be part of https://gna.org/bugs/?18701, which is fixed in trunk
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20111028 04:51:44< ivanovic_pandora> Alarantalara: hmmm, you have not seen the A40 in germany
20111028 04:52:04< ivanovic_pandora> it goes right through the town center of several large towns like eg essen
20111028 04:53:00< melinath> shadowmaster: Yeah, that would *probably* fix it. I'll build trunk and check.
20111028 04:53:58< melinath> I guess I should say I'll *try* to build trunk... never done it on a mac before.
20111028 04:55:32< ivanovic_pandora> melinath: should be possible
20111028 04:55:55< ivanovic_pandora> in case you encounter problems Alarantalara and crimson_penguin should be able to help
20111028 04:56:28< ivanovic_pandora> especially since you just want to build for your box, not some special multilib, multi os release binary
20111028 04:57:04< Alarantalara> Ivanovic: not that one in particular, no. Mostly just the one connecting Frankfurt to Strasbourg
20111028 04:57:49< ivanovic_pandora> that one is quite seperated
20111028 04:58:13< melinath> ivanovic_pandora: yeah, I figure it'll work, just take a bit of setting up.
20111028 04:59:13< CIA-64> torangan * r51694 /trunk/po/ (7 files in 7 dirs): korean translation update
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20111028 05:03:44< Alarantalara> melinath: It's a bit of a pain right now, since getting all the libraries is currently very hard
20111028 05:04:36< ivanovic_pandora> melinath: just a one time effort
20111028 05:04:39< ivanovic_pandora> ;)
20111028 05:04:40< ivanovic_pandora> Alarantalara: that is: there is always at least some noise protection in germany for people living close to a motorway
20111028 05:05:25< ivanovic_pandora> Alarantalara: is there no easy way these days like eg installing all libs using fink?
20111028 05:05:39< Alarantalara> scons + fink/macports does work
20111028 05:05:42< ivanovic_pandora> that was what i was doing some 4 years ago on 10.4
20111028 05:05:51< Alarantalara> though I haven't tried it in a while
20111028 05:06:10< ivanovic_pandora> okay, in the old days there was only autohell
20111028 05:06:38< ivanovic_pandora> but scons and cmake should both work if fink does still exist and provide the correct libs
20111028 05:06:47< Alarantalara> it doesn't make the nice app bundle though
20111028 05:07:34< ivanovic_pandora> which dev needs those?
20111028 05:07:37< Alarantalara> I'll try a build with the macports supplied libs now
20111028 05:07:59< ivanovic_pandora> okay, in the old automake days there was also some "make app" target, but no idea if/how that actually worked
20111028 05:08:27< Alarantalara> nothing like that in scons
20111028 05:08:42< ivanovic_pandora> should be possible to recreate such a thing as "single os / target plattform" app
20111028 05:09:28< ivanovic_pandora> yeah, getting stuff work for several os releaes and possibly x86 as well as ppc would be hell and not worth the work
20111028 05:10:04< Alarantalara> especially since fink and macports don't build multi-platform libraries for you
20111028 05:10:26< ivanovic_pandora> :)
20111028 05:12:50< ivanovic_pandora> Alarantalara: do you think there is some demand for a "simple app creation" for such a single target plattform?
20111028 05:13:33 * ivanovic_pandora is not a mac user anymore and was using the terminal during his mac days for most stuff, so there was no demand for .app bundles
20111028 05:13:48< Alarantalara> It doesn't seem like it - there has been exactly one person who has had trouble compiling Wesnoth since the boost version change
20111028 05:14:17< Alarantalara> I would guess that most people are happy with the intermittant releases on the mac
20111028 05:14:49< Alarantalara> well that's a fun error with scons: error: ?libintl_setlocale? is not a member of ?std?
20111028 05:15:38< ivanovic_pandora> hmmm there were some changes with localzation stuff these days...
20111028 05:16:07< ivanovic_pandora> and yeah, libintl is really not part of std but of gettext stuff iirc
20111028 05:16:45< Alarantalara> Indeed. It doesn't use std on Windows, looking at the source
20111028 05:17:28< Alarantalara> but apparently it does in the Xcode copy of the library
20111028 05:17:41< Alarantalara> which is of course separate from the macports version
20111028 05:17:58< ivanovic_pandora> ugh
20111028 05:18:08< ivanovic_pandora> good luck with that one!
20111028 05:18:34< Alarantalara> I can always rebuild all the libraries
20111028 05:18:44< ivanovic_pandora> off now for a while, will go through security and search for a nice seat there
20111028 05:18:58< ivanovic_pandora> still some hours to wait till boarding...
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20111028 05:50:33< ivanovic_pandora> re
20111028 06:01:16< ivanovic_pandora> looks like everyone went to bed in those 30min i was off...
20111028 06:01:42< Alarantalara> not quite
20111028 06:01:49< shadowmaster> yup
20111028 06:02:41< Espreon> yar
20111028 06:02:56< CIA-64> alarantalara * r51695 /trunk/src/game.cpp: avoid std prefix so scons build on Mac works with macports
20111028 06:03:37< CIA-64> alarantalara * r51696 /trunk/projectfiles/Xcode/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/project.pbxproj: prepare Xcode project for 1.9.10 release
20111028 06:04:14< Alarantalara> now it's time to go to bed. Goodnight
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20111028 06:07:13< ivanovic_pandora> Alarantalara: refgarding the xcode stuff: i think there was once a ready to download inlude package
20111028 06:07:13< ivanovic_pandora> is there antying stopping you/us from providing such a thing for the latest version?
20111028 06:07:14< ivanovic_pandora> eg by zipping it all and uploading it to sf.net
20111028 06:12:24< CIA-64> shadowmaster * r51697 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/language_selection.cfg: gui2/tlanguage_selection: Set maximum dialog height to 600
20111028 06:12:39< CIA-64> shadowmaster * r51698 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/language_selection.cfg: gui2/tlanguage_selection: Title Case
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20111028 07:07:15< ivanovic_pandora> okay, this public wifi relly sucks
20111028 07:08:01< ivanovic_pandora> will turn the pandora off now and i assume that there will be no (decent) free wifi at the atlanta airport either
20111028 07:08:21< ivanovic_pandora> so so you in some 30h when i am back home
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20111028 08:34:47< Rhonda> did Ivanovic open the box?
20111028 08:35:18< Espreon> What box?
20111028 08:42:03< Rhonda> pandora's box?
20111028 08:42:12< Espreon> Ah.
20111028 08:42:19< Espreon> Heh..
20111028 08:43:00< Rhonda> I know, early in the morning for suble jokes, but that's how I like them. :)
20111028 08:53:39< beetlenaut> zookeeper: When I changed the AMLA requirements to 50*level, it affected Delfador. Some people feel that it will make it too hard to keep him alive now though. Do you think he should have stayed at 150 XP?
20111028 08:55:13< zookeeper> beetlenaut, i can see it being a little bit of an issue, but sounds like we could easily fix that by just bumping the base hp by 3-6 or so.
20111028 08:56:13< beetlenaut> Hmm. I think that would be nicer.
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20111028 09:02:23< zookeeper> how about 60? currently elder mage has 55 and lvl4 great mage has 65.
20111028 09:02:51< beetlenaut> That sounds good. I was just going to propose that.
20111028 09:04:01< beetlenaut> Do you want me to take care of it?
20111028 09:05:16< zookeeper> yeah, please do
20111028 09:05:25< beetlenaut> Ok.
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20111028 09:13:58< CIA-64> beetlenaut * r51699 /trunk/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/01_The_Elves_Besieged.cfg: Bumped up Delfador's hitpoints to 60 (since he needs more XP to AMLA).
20111028 09:18:39< CIA-64> espreon * r51700 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Ran umcpropfix.
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20111028 09:36:01< zookeeper> beetlenaut, i bet that's not going to stick once he AMLAs for the first time
20111028 09:36:32< zookeeper> i'd say rather bump the elder mage hp or give delfador a hp-boosting object
20111028 09:41:24< CIA-64> zookeeper * r51701 /trunk/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/04_The_Bay_of_Pearls.cfg: Applied r48135 to the "enemies defeated" dialogue as well.
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20111028 11:52:47< CIA-64> fendrin * r51702 /trunk/src/ (reports.cpp unit.cpp unit.hpp): The tooltip of the unit's displayed level now shows the possible advancements in the selected language.
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20111028 17:59:40< anonymissimus> fendrin: is this guy right about his liminal description ? http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=511617#p511617
20111028 18:00:03< anonymissimus> it sounds indeed interesting for a faction then
20111028 18:00:45< anonymissimus> fendrin: and what about assigning the "hotkey" bugs to me ?
20111028 18:09:07< CIA-64> anonymissimus * r51703 /trunk/projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj: VS projectfile update
20111028 18:09:20< CIA-64> anonymissimus * r51704 /trunk/projectfiles/CodeBlocks/wesnoth.cbp: CB projectfile update
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20111028 19:04:43< fendrin> hi anonymissimus
20111028 19:04:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 169 bugs, 327 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20111028 19:06:07< fendrin> anonymissimus: You want to take over both hotkey related bugs? Feel free to do so. I have done some work making joystick buttons hotkeyable so the code is no stranger to me. But If you feel confident about it I don't mind.
20111028 19:09:24< fendrin> anonymissimus: and yes, the post about liminal is right. I don't get exactly how he calculated the 1.2 and 20% or 10%.
20111028 19:10:50< fendrin> anonymissimus: Liminal just works by giving you the -abs(lawful_bonus). Thus liminal units are at there normal values during twilight and handicaped otherwise. So they will have slightly better base values.
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20111028 19:12:38< fendrin> hi Crab_
20111028 19:12:54< Crab_> hi, fendrin
20111028 19:18:10< fendrin> Crab_: any news on the mp front?
20111028 19:18:49< fendrin> Crab_: I have disabled LoW MP for the upcomming release for the case that I am not around during the hot phase already. 
20111028 19:18:54< Crab_> no, not at the moment. but it's good that you've reminded me, this gives a good chance I'll check it on this weekend
20111028 19:19:13< Crab_> ok, I see
20111028 19:19:35< fendrin> Crab_: That would be cool but don't feel embossed to make it in time.
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20111028 19:34:49< anonymissimus> fendrin: I don'r feel comfortable about the hotkey code
20111028 19:35:58< anonymissimus> however, when I fixed the ingame command line on windows I noticed that the behavior is very different win vs Linux
20111028 19:36:05< anonymissimus> and since you cant test that...
20111028 19:36:47< anonymissimus> TBH I dont even wuite understand Sigurd's bug report; he's got a different keymap setting
20111028 19:41:54< fendrin> anonymissimus: Then I like to suggest we work together on the matter. My theorem about bug https://gna.org/bugs/?18868 or more likely https://gna.org/bugs/?15567 is that we had two kinds of keyboard hotkeys, simple and complicated ones. I removed the simple way with my now reverted fix attempt. That stopped working the hotkeys for 18868 so I think that the complicated hotkeys never worked with that setup like bug 18868 suggests. 
20111028 19:43:00< fendrin> anonymissimus: You noted in 15567 that you have a theorem for the bug as well. can I hear it please?
20111028 19:52:20< SigurdFireDragon> anonymissimus: should I try to explain the bug in a different way?
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20111028 20:20:59< shadowmaster> Crab_: hi, what's the status of the GUI2 chat log dialog?
20111028 20:21:39< Crab_> shadowmaster: hi. so far, nothing new, but this time your timing for the reminder is quite good :)
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20111028 20:50:40< anonymissimus> fendrin: I have no theorem for bug 15567
20111028 20:51:17< fendrin> "It is a win-only problem and I have suspicions about the cause."
20111028 20:51:30< fendrin> anonymissimus: ^ The suspicions.
20111028 20:51:56< anonymissimus> what I noticed when fixing the command line was that on windows, SDL fires for a single keypress of right alt (alt graph) first a lctrl and then a lctrl+ralt key event
20111028 20:53:00< anonymissimus> on linux its only one event for right alt instead, and this is the way it's supposed to be, proven by some research
20111028 20:53:34< anonymissimus> so stuff like that can interfere with all these bugs
20111028 20:54:26< anonymissimus> SigurdFireDragon: yes, that might help
20111028 20:54:41< anonymissimus> SigurdFireDragon: you may as well find out what#s wrong yourself
20111028 20:54:48< anonymissimus> and prepare a patch
20111028 20:55:37< anonymissimus> however, after I fix something on win I generally re-test the fix on Linux since it could break the other way round :(
20111028 20:56:58< anonymissimus> the issue with alt graph above was the reason for the characters reachable only via alt graph (on a german keyboard) not working in the command line, that was the bug I fixed...
20111028 20:58:05< anonymissimus> and yes, the problems have probably been present since ever
20111028 21:00:46< anonymissimus> and as for bug #15567, it really is a win only problem, i tried it once and the behavior is clearly different
20111028 21:03:01< anonymissimus> SigurdFireDragon: your location says US, so I supposed your keymap is a normal US one ?
20111028 21:03:17< anonymissimus> afaik that is the qwerty one ?
20111028 21:05:09< SigurdFireDragon> in win 7 it's the US-keyboard with the dvorak layout for keys
20111028 21:05:40< SigurdFireDragon> so I'm not using the qwerty layout
20111028 21:07:58 * anonymissimus knows nothing about keyboard layouts
20111028 21:08:45< anonymissimus> the only thing i need to know is that the y in the us keyboard is where the z on a german one is, for pressing "yes" in bios...
20111028 21:10:35< Espreon> Let's just say this: QWERTY and Dvorak are very different.
20111028 21:11:49< anonymissimus> SigurdFireDragon: your's is this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_United_States_Dvorak.svg ?
20111028 21:14:55< SigurdFireDragon> yep
20111028 21:15:44< SigurdFireDragon> currently, Wesnoth respects my Windows keyboard mapping except for shift+c, shift+u and others involving shift
20111028 21:17:24< anonymissimus> "respect" means that the saved shortcut stays with the spacial position of the key ?
20111028 21:17:55< anonymissimus> or that it "moves together with the letter" ?
20111028 21:18:24< SigurdFireDragon> which patch did you mean for me to try my hand at for #18868 or #15567?
20111028 21:19:09< SigurdFireDragon> moves with the letter
20111028 21:19:11< anonymissimus> well, the one you reported
20111028 21:19:17< SigurdFireDragon> r
20111028 21:19:45< anonymissimus> or the ones you can reproduce, that is
20111028 21:20:48< SigurdFireDragon> moves with the letter, such that "r" is triggered where windows tells wesnoth where it is to be trigged
20111028 21:21:19< SigurdFireDragon> imo, which is what it should do
20111028 21:21:32< anonymissimus> this here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Qwerty.svg is what I know as the "english" layout, it's relevant whenever I have no keymap set with a german keyboard, such as when using Linux-ish boot CDs
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20111028 22:26:34< Natasiel> hi all
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20111028 22:36:08< neph> Hi, guys, I've got my broadband back and settled the problems with uni, so am willing to become an active dev again :) I haven't checked in for quite a while, any important news regarding AI stuff? Also, are there any crucial tasks that should be done asap? I could try tackling that before I dive right back into the AI mechanisms
20111028 22:36:44-!- neph is now known as Nephro
20111028 22:38:34< Natasiel> Nephro, having more than 9 sides in mp games could be very nice
20111028 22:40:21< Espreon> Nephro: I don't think anything exciting happened.
20111028 22:42:08< Nephro> Natasiel, we had an mp expert somewhere... He should be able to do that much more faster and cleaner than I ever could :)
20111028 22:43:24< Nephro> Espreon, well, I might as well start designing the defense system then... The problem is I recently discovered that I am a horrible player at this game, so the implementation of AI defense might occur simpler than its design
20111028 22:45:55< Espreon> Heh.
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20111028 22:49:10< Natasiel> Nephro, if you could actually make an AI recognize more than a single leader, it could do the trick
20111028 22:51:19< anonymissimus> Natasiel: who are you if I may ask ?
20111028 22:51:32< anonymissimus> we are chsrto time before feature freeze
20111028 22:51:51< anonymissimus> implementing more sides is a ridicuous task at this spot
20111028 22:52:02< anonymissimus> short time I mean
20111028 22:52:03< Nephro> well, we had a discussion about this with crab and decided that the ai should enter a defense phase at some point when it is obviously outnumbered and/or is in a "behind position", cause at the moment it throws its forces right into the flames no matter what
20111028 22:52:04< Natasiel> anonymissimus, a nobody working on mp campaigns
20111028 22:52:52< anonymissimus> Nephro: so what you should do imo is look for some ai bugs to fix
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20111028 22:54:22< Nephro> anonymissimus, yeah, that's probably what I am going to do, to get some speed 
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20111028 23:08:02< anonymissimus> implementing +9 sides is something that was certainly talked about several times
20111028 23:08:19< anonymissimus> already, and it got not done since it's too difficult
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20111028 23:18:06< Natasiel> crab talked about tackling it, AFAIK it already works locally hotseats
20111028 23:22:43< anonymissimus> if you are a mp campaign author other concerns should be muhc more important for you, such as bug #18746 
20111028 23:22:45< Natasiel> anonymissimus, anyway there is a rollovereyes way around it
20111028 23:23:16< Natasiel> thank you, I'll get knowledge of it
20111028 23:23:32< anonymissimus> getting what exists to work right is more important than implementing a feature
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20111028 23:31:39< Natasiel> anonymissimus, is this bug only affecting auto-saves?
20111028 23:31:59< anonymissimus> start-of-scenario saves
20111028 23:32:08< anonymissimus> which are, sort of, autosaved
20111028 23:34:21< Natasiel> I see, they are merely ignored since 1.4 in WC
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20111028 23:38:04< Natasiel> so, getting a MP campaign on current trunk is the goal? everything is freezing?
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20111028 23:42:02< anonymissimus> Natasiel: as far as I'm concerned, mp campaigns are practically officially unsupported in 1.9 and 1.10
20111028 23:42:54< anonymissimus> since there are so many problems, and I dont want that bug reports for those which dont have a workaround come, but not for those that have
20111028 23:43:02< anonymissimus> and the like
20111028 23:43:44< anonymissimus> and we dont have a mp campaign in mainline to test and fix stuff
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--- Log closed Sat Oct 29 00:00:20 2011