--- Log opened Sat Nov 12 00:00:43 2011
20111112 00:04:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: String/feature-freeze active for trunk | 172 bugs, 326 feature requests, 13 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20111112 04:50:52< Jetrel> fendrin:  so apparently, I need to bring that new end-turn button more in line with the brightness on other buttons?
20111112 04:51:12< Jetrel> I think I was told to make it brighter so it'd be more noticeable.
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20111112 04:55:17< shadowmaster> mordante: I think I commented on https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?12424 without making sure I'm making sense in the first place. Did zaroth really get a chance to do any refactoring in the gameplay controllers before disappearing? (and yes, I screwed up, "start of this cycle" was 2010, not 2011)
20111112 04:55:26< CIA-81> grickit * r51960 /trunk/data/themes/default.cfg: Move the end turn button up a pixel.
20111112 04:57:42< shadowmaster> hm, apparently not, or at least not as himself. Maybe someone else? patches from him before GSoC?
20111112 04:58:52< Espreon> Gambit: You might as well apply the change to the widescreen theme too.
20111112 04:59:00< shadowmaster> although now that I think of it, the whiteboard feature could have also enforced some refactoring
20111112 04:59:31< Gambit> Oh I thought all the other themes were experimental and unusable.
20111112 04:59:35< Gambit> Alright Espreon.
20111112 04:59:54< Espreon> At least the widescreen theme is being developed.
20111112 05:00:04< shadowmaster> Gambit: I thought you moderated Ideas.
20111112 05:00:28< shadowmaster> it's hard to believe you didn't pay attention to the widescreen theme topic in there ;)
20111112 05:00:39< Gambit> Ah that's the one with the other sidebar
20111112 05:01:52< shadowmaster> eh, I'll go back to work on my own crap before I start looking at every single src/ diff since 2010 and spend the full night without accomplishing anything
20111112 05:02:49< Gambit> Espreon: widescreen apparently still uses the old end turn
20111112 05:03:22< Gambit> and weird I don't see a second sidebar
20111112 05:03:27< Gambit> maybe 1440 isn't enough
20111112 05:03:38< Espreon> How od.
20111112 05:03:39< Espreon> *odd
20111112 05:03:49< Espreon> ... That you don't see a second sidebar.
20111112 05:03:58< shadowmaster> I see it.
20111112 05:04:10< shadowmaster> I am on 1280x800
20111112 05:04:12< Gambit> Oh it's because I was in a replay.
20111112 05:04:13< Espreon> As do I.
20111112 05:04:23< shadowmaster> actually 1280x752
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20111112 05:06:03< CIA-81> grickit * r51961 /trunk/data/themes/macros.cfg: Fixed buttons on replay bar being up too high.
20111112 05:06:56< shadowmaster> Gambit: now try to fix the missing map borders too!
20111112 05:07:19< Gambit> Huh?
20111112 05:07:32< shadowmaster> the replay theme lacks map borders!
20111112 05:09:44< Gambit> The replay is a separate theme?
20111112 05:10:26< shadowmaster> kind of. individual themes define changes for the replay controller.
20111112 05:10:47< shadowmaster> sadly, the only way to figure out why the original map border definitions are being ignored (or so I figured after messing a lot with WML and debug output) is to run Wesnoth under a debugger and place strategical breakpoints in the theme and replay code!
20111112 05:11:15< shadowmaster> but you could be a hero if you can pull that off!
20111112 05:11:29< Gambit> Meh I'm not smart enough for that.
20111112 05:12:26< shadowmaster> ah well, I'm sure there are more dimwits here I can manipulate into doing the hard work for me.
20111112 05:13:08 * shadowmaster *evil laugh*
20111112 05:14:01< Gambit> I'll just keep doing the tiny things.
20111112 05:14:30< Gambit> I guess a responsible developer would now go and look for bugs related to those two fixes.
20111112 05:14:48< shadowmaster> (no, I didn't break it. I recall that problem appearing as far back as 1.3.x, but since I almost never use replays, I didn't pay much attention until I became obsessed with UI consistency approximately 1 month ago)
20111112 05:15:54< shadowmaster> Gambit: theoretically, your changes shouldn't cause any bugs unless you moved a control in such a way its rectangle overlaps into an area outside its parent panel
20111112 05:16:04< Gambit> shadowmaster: I mean reports to close.
20111112 05:16:20< shadowmaster> Gambit: ah no, you must do that by yourself
20111112 05:16:29< Gambit> Surely someone reported the end turn button being one pixel too low. It was driving me insane. :P
20111112 05:16:39< shadowmaster> and as I was saying, it should be fine as long as your rectangles don't overlap into the gamemap drawing area
20111112 05:16:58< shadowmaster> make sure to test on 800x480, 800x600 and 1024x768, though
20111112 05:18:04< Gambit> 800x480 is really broken on the create game menu
20111112 05:18:29< shadowmaster> I know, and I had figure d out a compromise to fix it, but it's no longer feasible due to the string freeze
20111112 05:19:14< shadowmaster> I've got an alternative in mind, but it could upset the Crazy MP People.
20111112 05:19:17< Gambit> I think the list-of-players box could be shrunk
20111112 05:19:24< Gambit> Expand the main box to the right
20111112 05:19:32< Gambit> shrink the chat box vertically
20111112 05:19:43< shadowmaster> the list of players is already limiting
20111112 05:19:47< Gambit> the era selection and password boxes have plenty of room. they just need moved up
20111112 05:19:50< Gambit> shadowmaster: What?
20111112 05:19:52< shadowmaster> the maximum nickname length is 20
20111112 05:19:56< Gambit> It takes up the whole right side of the screen
20111112 05:20:01< Gambit> No I mean vertically
20111112 05:20:13< shadowmaster> can't do that without altering the lobby too, I think
20111112 05:20:35< shadowmaster> or making the game setup screen use a custom geometry, which would be a feature, which is bad
20111112 05:20:54< shadowmaster> if you still don't get it, look into images/misc/lobby*.png
20111112 05:21:06< Gambit> Ah
20111112 05:21:33< Gambit> well I can at least move the era selection and password boxes up so they're not on top of the chat box.
20111112 05:21:35< Gambit> probably.
20111112 05:22:12< shadowmaster> nope
20111112 05:22:18< shadowmaster> select a Random Map generator
20111112 05:22:22< Gambit> Ah
20111112 05:22:24< Gambit> Sad
20111112 05:22:42< Gambit> Oh well. Open Pandora users will just have to suffer.
20111112 05:23:25 * Gambit == jealous
20111112 05:23:27< shadowmaster> I heard not too long ago that they are at risk of encountering OOS due to floating point precision errors, so... :)
20111112 05:23:54< Gambit> Oh the internals of the game are different too?
20111112 05:24:05< Gambit> Or the processor is funny?
20111112 05:24:17< shadowmaster> the compiler options and the processor
20111112 05:25:10< shadowmaster> that said, I believe it works in the general case
20111112 05:26:10< shadowmaster> one thing I'd propose for 1.11 is killing the chat box in that screen
20111112 05:26:18< shadowmaster> and possibly the nicklist to
20111112 05:26:27< Gambit> No
20111112 05:26:42< Gambit> Whispering about what options people want while setting up a game
20111112 05:26:49< shadowmaster> okay, Crazy MP Person, you can go and figure out a solution yourself then :p
20111112 05:26:56< Gambit> I shall.
20111112 05:27:03< Gambit> probably
20111112 05:27:16< Gambit> Tell me where is the lobby's soft code?
20111112 05:27:17< shadowmaster> actually, I swore I'd not fix bugs or code features for your kind some days ago, so it's probably a moot point
20111112 05:27:21< Gambit> For I much desire to speak with it.
20111112 05:27:35< shadowmaster> look under src and try to use your head
20111112 05:28:02< Gambit> Aw but if it's in there...
20111112 05:28:18< shadowmaster> no, the current default (non-GUI2) lobby doesn't have any piece of code in WML
20111112 05:28:29< Gambit> Eh not touching that stuff.
20111112 05:28:50< shadowmaster> :)
20111112 05:29:54< Gambit> And you messed up your line by the way.
20111112 05:30:12< Gambit> "The lobby's soft code did not pass the borders of GUI2. It has fallen into Shadow."
20111112 05:30:12< shadowmaster> what line?
20111112 05:30:32< shadowmaster> that's not my line
20111112 05:31:47< Gambit> You need to rewatch The Fellowship.
20111112 05:32:13< shadowmaster> I don't need to. We are discussing the Wesnoth UI, not the LotR movies.
20111112 05:36:12< Gambit> The nick list maybe.
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20111112 06:04:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: String/feature-freeze active for trunk | 170 bugs, 326 feature requests, 13 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20111112 11:31:37< Ivanovic> moin
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20111112 11:45:47< vultraz> hullo
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20111112 17:25:28< Alarantalara> Is there a problem with non-ASCII characters on pathnames? http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35444&p=513306
20111112 17:26:01< Alarantalara> My OS won't let me create such a username, so I can't confirm it myself
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20111112 17:36:08< anonymissimus> Ivanovic: , noy , happygrue Actually, I agree with slowthinker on teh khalifate removal, we broke backwards compatibility for UMC heavily by this
20111112 17:36:42< anonymissimus> it should have been enough to make them unavailable for main multiplayer, we have a lot of such units in core
20111112 17:37:01< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: but they could not be tuned and updated anymore, so it is better to not have them in mainline and ask the UMC creators to copy stuff over
20111112 17:37:07< anonymissimus> wolfs monsters and such
20111112 17:37:27< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: those would still be double with the addon installed
20111112 17:37:36< Ivanovic> which makes things more difficult
20111112 17:39:08< Gambit> I'd have also preferred to keep the files in and accessible, just not their era.
20111112 17:39:11< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: besides those units are simply incomplete
20111112 17:39:28< Ivanovic> they would need *lots* of work to eg add sane descriptions
20111112 17:39:49< Ivanovic> so there is NO way to have them in right now considering that issues were not fixed over the months
20111112 17:43:11< anonymissimus> slowthinker's case is sort of special, his conquest addon can't have custom units without people being ejected from teh games with "unknown unit type" errors
20111112 17:43:22< anonymissimus> thats why he objects
20111112 17:43:43< anonymissimus> that is, if these other people dpn't have downloaded the addon
20111112 17:44:20< anonymissimus> thats nothing special to conquest though, it affects all UMC mp scenarios/campaigns
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20111112 17:52:57< Gambit> That's the big issue.
20111112 17:53:20< Gambit> For multiplayer add-ons, you'll be a lot more successful if your add-on doesn't require downloads.
20111112 17:53:25< Gambit> Because people can "try before you buy"
20111112 17:53:45< Gambit> So the more resources that exist in data/core/ the better
20111112 17:55:21< Gambit> For that same reason (this is a different issue though) it'd be awesome if some day [unit_type] could be transferred over the network like [multiplayer] can be.
20111112 17:59:06< timotei> What if add some kind of: depends on the x addon requirements on addons
20111112 17:59:16< timotei> so the prerequisites gets downloaded before the addon?
20111112 18:00:20< Gambit> timotei: Yes this feature exists.
20111112 18:01:35< timotei> Gambit: well... didn't you said something along that lines? (I understood something like: "Don't require downloads of dependent addons?")
20111112 18:02:04< Gambit> We don't want to require any add-ons.
20111112 18:02:23< Gambit> That way someone who has the add-on can host a game and his friends that don't have it can join.
20111112 18:02:31< Gambit> And he can convince them more easily to go download it. :)
20111112 18:02:53< Gambit> And they can do likewise then.
20111112 18:03:04< timotei> Gambit: are you going to MineCon btw?
20111112 18:03:05< timotei> :P
20111112 18:03:22< Gambit> No :(
20111112 18:04:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: String/feature-freeze active for trunk | 171 bugs, 326 feature requests, 13 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20111112 18:10:26 * anonymissimus wonders why the crazy mp people are playing the crappy, very poorly wml'ed, gigantic to download and install, download-requiring, unbalanced Ageless Era all the time then
20111112 18:12:32< Gambit> But for all its faults, it's still better than downloading and updating the dozens of eras that comprise it
20111112 18:12:40< Gambit> s/But/Because/
20111112 18:12:58< Gambit> *for them
20111112 18:13:29< Gambit> Half the eras on the add-on server are crap. I really don't want them all.
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20111112 18:57:59< happygrue> anonymissimus: I completely agree with you, I think it is tragic that they are removed, but Ivanovic's points are important, namely that whatever was in there is already shiping outdated and can't be modified later, and things like unit discriptions didn't get done
20111112 18:58:50< happygrue> hard call, is it better to ship something broken that still has some nice functonality (and users who want it) or to pull it and fix it before sending it out?
20111112 18:59:05 * happygrue does not like answering these questions
20111112 19:02:57< boucman> happygrue: remember that if we change the characteristics of a unit, we create incompatibilities between stable versions... which is a strong argument against
20111112 19:03:05< boucman> (oos type incompatibilities
20111112 19:03:49< happygrue> right right, I agree it was the right decision and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
20111112 19:04:23< happygrue> that's what I was saying, it is not acceptable to put them out there in the form they were in considering there will be such changes
20111112 19:04:31< happygrue> but it still sucks :(
20111112 19:05:13< boucman> indeed :(
20111112 19:05:27 * boucman wasthe one that pushed the most to get them included...
20111112 19:05:58< happygrue> sadly I have not had a good past few months or maybe this could have been straightened out in time but RL has not been kind to my plans
20111112 19:06:03< boucman> I am not sure how to make them move forward for the next version... they have been in the making for so long
20111112 19:08:02< happygrue> well, I think that there is still enough community interest that testing can happen on the dev side
20111112 19:08:52< happygrue> as an addon they could be tested on stable too
20111112 19:09:17< happygrue> it's quite possilbe that this was the last 'big' change (but possible it is not too I guess) and that it's tweaks from here out
20111112 19:10:11< happygrue> overall I am more than optamistic about them being ready, maybe even starting to look polished, by the end of the next dev cycle
20111112 19:13:02< boucman> not sure...
20111112 19:13:41< boucman> for all previous race, they were added unbalanced in mainline (these were other times, we could do that...) and it was only once in mainline that most balance problems were detected
20111112 19:14:19< boucman> I am not sure we can balance them without heavy testing by the whole community, that's why I think default+khalifate as a separate era wasthe way to go...
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20111112 19:30:21< Ivanovic> boucman: they can get the very same testing if eg the default+khalifate era is actively encouraged by the main MP players eg by using them in tournaments, too
20111112 19:32:41< boucman> yes, but having these players to encourage the use in one more step...
20111112 19:40:20< Soliton> there is no use in wider testing if it's clear that major changes are still to come.
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20111112 19:46:35< Gambit> Well you do have ways to push tournaments to use default+khalifate
20111112 19:46:50< Gambit> We can withhold stickying the thread (something they all love)
20111112 19:47:05< Gambit> Also the subdomains like tgt.wesnoth.org and kotf.wesnoth.org
20111112 19:48:08< Gambit> Now that I've actually typed it, it seems much more evil than it was in my head.
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20111112 20:53:25< happygrue> hehe
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20111112 20:59:54< Ivanovic> Gambit: where is it evil?
20111112 21:00:02 * Ivanovic sees no evil there, just sane reasoning
20111112 21:00:53< un214> valley of death
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20111112 21:14:16< AI0867> 17:25 < Alarantalara> Is there a problem with non-ASCII characters on pathnames? http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35444&p=513306 <-- there is on windows
20111112 21:32:20< anonymissimus> alarantalara: I wouldn't use anything else than letters in english alphabet and underscores in path and filenames
20111112 21:33:00< anonymissimus> its too problematic depending on OS etc
20111112 21:33:49< anonymissimus> win allows space, Linux does not (or at least certain tools tend to fail)
20111112 21:35:00< shadowm_laptop> Linux allows whitespace, and only poorly coded applications fail to handle paths with whitespace in them, in both operating systems.
20111112 21:36:24< shadowm_laptop> in both it's often necessary to escape whitespace or surround arguments with quotes in command lines since it's interpreted as an argument delimiter by DOS and Unix based operating systems
20111112 21:37:28< anonymissimus> um by that definitions a lot of applications are poorly coded :|
20111112 21:37:48< shadowm_laptop> none of the applications I use, at least
20111112 21:38:01< un214> most shell script coding can be choked by sufficiently obscure characters in filenames
20111112 21:38:08< anonymissimus> well, IIRC cmake fails for instance
20111112 21:38:22< anonymissimus> and the wesnoth pythong tools
20111112 21:38:53< shadowm_laptop> I don't really use cmake, and I'm not surprised about the latter.
20111112 21:38:54< un214> so long as they handle whitespace above the starting directory, _I'm not bothered by devtools choking on whitespace_
20111112 21:49:15< AI0867> anonymissimus: which tools fail and how?
20111112 21:50:27< anonymissimus> AI0867: well...it is not really important to fix it since there's an easy workaround; also, since I never use spaces now I can't tell
20111112 21:51:06< anonymissimus> or don't remember
20111112 21:52:33< anonymissimus> there is the "trackplacer fails to draw journey dots on windows" bug for instance
20111112 21:52:57< anonymissimus> thats about the most disturbing python tool bug imo at the moment
20111112 21:54:28< anonymissimus> when I showed it to esr he thought that it's an upstream problem with the gtk release for win though
20111112 21:55:05< AI0867> probably
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20111112 22:48:55< CIA-81> ivanovic * r51962 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: updated credits entry for the russian translation
20111112 22:58:40< Gambit> Invalid WML found: possible deprecated [or] syntax: now forcing re-interpretation
20111112 22:58:51< Gambit> What's this mean and why can't it be more specific?
20111112 23:00:09< Gambit> I'm fairly certain this is valid WML: http://pastebin.com/pdnMBpJD :|
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20111112 23:07:30< shadowm_laptop> introduced in 1.3.x, the first [or] shouldn't be an [or]
20111112 23:07:48< Gambit> But it has to be.
20111112 23:08:08< Gambit> Maybe I can wrap all the or chunks in ands
20111112 23:08:43< Gambit> If I understand game_events.cpp correctly you can't have multiple ors in the same chunk of logic.
20111112 23:09:10< shadowm_laptop> no, it doesn't have to be
20111112 23:10:01< Gambit> Yes it does. I want that to evaluate true if you have enough gold or if the cost is 0.
20111112 23:10:35< Gambit> err the first one is AP
20111112 23:10:39< Gambit> but anyway...
20111112 23:11:16< Gambit> Meh wrapping them in ands causes the thing to always be true.
20111112 23:13:25< Gambit> Since this has been deprecated since 1.3 I wonder if I can remove it...
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20111112 23:14:19< Gambit> I guess it's from when people did [or]condition[/or][or]condition2[/or] instead of [or]condition condition2[/or] ?
20111112 23:16:01< Gambit> Oh it doesn't work then either.
20111112 23:16:48< Gambit> So I guess WML cannot do this
20111112 23:17:51< Espreon> Oh well.
20111112 23:18:43< Gambit> Well it rather sucks having -2 gold and being unable to perform an action that costs 0
20111112 23:19:09< Gambit> The C++ doesn't look too complicated, but I'm not sure if this is a bug.
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20111112 23:23:32< Gambit> I guess gold is the only thing it's possible to go negative on (income), so this particular case doesnt matter.
20111112 23:24:03< Gambit> But it's weird that Wesnoth can't do ((a || b) && (c || d))
20111112 23:38:26< fendrin> Gambit: Wesnoth can't do that? I think that is clearly a bug then. One should be able to use all kinds of boolean expressions.
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20111112 23:46:37< CIA-81> elias * r51963 /trunk/data/tools/wmlunits: [wmlunits] ignore addon units with no name
20111112 23:47:05< shadowm_laptop> Gambit: it can
20111112 23:48:11< shadowm_laptop> <a> [or] <b> [/or] [and] <c> [or] <d> [/or] [/and]
20111112 23:49:03< Gambit> I don't think that's how [or] works...
20111112 23:49:13< shadowm_laptop> that's how [or] works
20111112 23:49:30< Gambit> Well darn.
20111112 23:49:38< Gambit> Thanks shadowmaster.
20111112 23:50:05< shadowm_laptop> If you really can't get it to work, lay it out in pseudocode and we could check again.
20111112 23:52:05< shadowm_laptop> Since I learned C# before WML, I've never really liked the WML way to do conditional expressions since the syntax tends to diverge from the effects
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--- Log closed Sun Nov 13 00:00:43 2011