--- Log opened Mon Nov 14 00:00:48 2011
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20111114 01:24:38< CIA-81> ai0867 * r51965 /trunk/utils/wmlxgettext: Add #po: comment recognition to perl wmlxgettext
20111114 01:24:39< AI0867> ivanovic: please check the new output from wmlxgettext ^
20111114 01:25:02< Espreon> Awesomeness.
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20111114 01:48:43< Espreon> AI0867: http://pastebin.com/AtBvCAMn ... I think # po: comments should get their own lines, if possible.
20111114 01:49:56< Espreon> ... rather than being on the same lines with stuff such as "[campaign]: id=Liberty"
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20111114 02:00:32< AI0867> maybe
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20111114 04:10:29< CIA-81> ai0867 * r51966 /trunk/ (changelog utils/wmlxgettext): Fix define handling of wmlxgettext (bug #18622)
20111114 04:10:30< AI0867> Ivanovic: again, please verify this ^
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20111114 05:16:15< CIA-81> ai0867 * r51967 /trunk/utils/wmlxgettext: Make #po: comments appear on their own lines
20111114 05:16:16< AI0867> Espreon: ^
20111114 05:16:23< Espreon> Yum.
20111114 05:16:25< Espreon> Thanks.
20111114 05:18:23< Espreon> AI0867: http://pastebin.com/vL34TkQP
20111114 05:19:06< AI0867> you mean it didn't do that before?
20111114 05:19:36< Espreon> Well, it did spurt out stuff, but not that much.
20111114 05:19:58< Espreon> AI0867: I'm looking at these: Use of uninitialized value in string eq at
20111114 05:20:15< Espreon> And these: Use of uninitialized value $domainstack[0]
20111114 05:22:05< Espreon> AI0867: This is all I get before that revision: http://pastebin.com/qaijjZzu
20111114 05:22:05< AI0867> I'm not sure if that's a problem in the tool or a problem in the WML
20111114 05:22:38< AI0867> this is all scenario-lua.cfg ?
20111114 05:24:01< Espreon> AI0867: The first link has all the errors I got for 'wesnoth'.
20111114 05:24:27< Espreon> Well...
20111114 05:24:55< Espreon> Well, just all the errors that came first.
20111114 05:25:23< AI0867> could you retry this on something with less lua lying around?
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20111114 05:26:11< Espreon> Sure.
20111114 05:27:27< Espreon> AI0867: I just get spammed with these: http://pastebin.com/0GY13Qqz
20111114 05:28:02< AI0867> which file?
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20111114 05:28:36< Espreon> No idea. Some file in the EoM.
20111114 05:30:41< Espreon> AI0867: Part of wesnoth-Era_of_Myths.pot did get mutilated, but then something icky in the EoM could have caused that. Lemme run it on something better.
20111114 05:32:27< Espreon> AI0867: These guys appear if it finds Lua: Use of uninitialized value $domainstack[0] in string eq at /home/espreon/bin/wmlxgettext line 103, <FILE> line 101.
20111114 05:33:44< AI0867> so, basically the new version hates lua?
20111114 05:34:01< Espreon> Well...
20111114 05:34:06< Espreon> Lemme see...
20111114 05:34:15< Espreon> As long as things don't get mutilated, it's fine.
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20111114 05:37:12< Espreon> AI0867: Yeah, stuff gets mutilated: http://pastebin.com/C8vFyV3c
20111114 05:37:33< Espreon> And those strings are indeed still in TSL.
20111114 05:38:44< Espreon> I wouldn't say it hates Lua... maybe in terms of strictness it does... Whether or not something has Lua, it appears that stuff is getting mutilated
20111114 05:41:06< AI0867> okay, r51966 is at fault
20111114 05:41:22< AI0867> and it looks like the new version has some issues with single-line defines
20111114 05:46:08< CIA-81> ai0867 * r51968 /trunk/utils/wmlxgettext: Do not parse the #enddef in a string + #enddef line twice
20111114 05:46:08< AI0867> Espreon: does this fix it for you? ^
20111114 05:46:44< Espreon> Let's see...
20111114 05:47:46< AI0867> turns out a line gets reparsed if there's more than one element that the script cares about
20111114 05:47:54< AI0867> and the #enddef was being hit every parse
20111114 05:48:15< Espreon> AI0867: Yup, that fixes it.
20111114 05:48:19< AI0867> =)
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20111114 06:04:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: String/feature-freeze active for trunk | 171 bugs, 326 feature requests, 13 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20111114 10:13:33< Ivanovic> moin
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20111114 10:43:50< CIA-81> ivanovic * r51969 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs): updated Indonesian and Latvian translation
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20111114 12:21:47< fendrin> hi
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20111114 16:03:19< Talad> Hi
20111114 16:03:27< Talad> I'm trying to get the FGA more popular
20111114 16:03:42< Talad> wesnoth is part of it (see news on the wesnoth web site)
20111114 16:03:54< Talad> please vote up  this story on http://slashdot.org/recent "5 free games join forces! Free Game Alliance"
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20111114 16:08:28< Rhonda> Please vote down the story because planeshift being in there is a laugh in the face of any real OSI project.
20111114 16:09:23< Talad> lol
20111114 16:10:11< Talad> PlaneShift is the only free mmorpg in existance which is a volunteer project and being able to be called a game
20111114 16:10:45< Talad> if you want to cut it down, then I think you cut the only chance people have to play a free mmorpg made by volunteers
20111114 16:11:19< Rhonda> It's free as in beer. Not free as in free speach.
20111114 16:11:37< Talad> wrong
20111114 16:11:52< Rhonda> The *engine* is free as in speech too, yes. But the gameart is not.
20111114 16:11:53< Talad> and I suggest you to avoid copying philosophies
20111114 16:11:55< Rhonda> Intentionally not.
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20111114 16:12:01< Talad> it's quite a fail
20111114 16:12:13< Talad> the game art is free to use
20111114 16:12:14< Rhonda> copying philosophies? What do you mean with that.
20111114 16:12:22< Rhonda> But it's not free as in OSI approved.
20111114 16:12:29< Talad> and open to the extent of being available to people who want to openly contribute to the project
20111114 16:12:34< Rhonda> which the slashdot article suggests.
20111114 16:12:39< Talad> which to me it's open source
20111114 16:12:43< Rhonda> lol
20111114 16:13:00< Rhonda> then you have a completely contrary opinion on open source than what OSI stands for
20111114 16:13:40< Talad> the article says explicitely OSI for source code
20111114 16:13:55< Talad> so your comment is not valid at all
20111114 16:15:03< Rhonda> game data is also source
20111114 16:15:29< Talad> but not source code
20111114 16:15:47< Rhonda> well, a fair amount of people disagree on that
20111114 16:16:22< Rhonda> Especially those who got their systems cracked because of exploits in image processing code. :)
20111114 16:17:10< Talad> I have no problem in having people complaining
20111114 16:17:24< Talad> there is always a group of people who like to spit on the work of others
20111114 16:17:26< Talad> it's normal.
20111114 16:17:54< Rhonda> It's not spitting on the work of others. It's clearly intentional by the planeshift to have their game data licensed proprietary.
20111114 16:18:36< Talad> it is, to protect the game uniqueness
20111114 16:18:36< Rhonda> And thus intentionally *not* OSI compatible.
20111114 16:18:43< Talad> what's the problem with that?
20111114 16:18:59< Rhonda> How do you see the game uniqueness of wesnoth in danger?
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20111114 16:19:24< Talad> I don't even question it
20111114 16:19:57< Talad> and it's really not related to the project's own choices
20111114 16:20:12< Talad> freedom is also the ability to choose your license
20111114 16:20:30< Talad> and open source is made to protect users and developers
20111114 16:20:34< Talad> not to please fanatics
20111114 16:20:41< Talad> or purists
20111114 16:20:49< Rhonda> You did, if you see the need to choose a proprietary license.
20111114 16:20:54< Talad> PS license pleases both developers and players
20111114 16:21:25< Talad> I never liked OS fanatics
20111114 16:21:41< Rhonda> Of course freedom is about the ability to choose your license. But if you choose a license model that is *NOT* OSI compatible, don't come along and try to ask for the "freedom" to claim otherwise.
20111114 16:21:53< Talad> and Stallman is the first to have been in the board of Ryzom
20111114 16:21:56< Talad> which was a commercial game
20111114 16:22:00< Talad> so what's the deal ?
20111114 16:22:10< Talad> I think they opened it without him :)
20111114 16:22:12< Talad> that's cool.
20111114 16:22:19< Rhonda> I am not an OS fanatic. I just hate people claim something being OS when it clearly isn't.
20111114 16:22:27< Rhonda> And I hate the GPL. There you go. :)
20111114 16:22:47< Talad> seems to me you don't like people called OS what you think it's not
20111114 16:22:50< Talad> which is different
20111114 16:23:26< Talad> anyway thanks for supporting free gaming. Seems you really like it.
20111114 16:24:13< Rhonda> It's not about what I think.
20111114 16:24:40< Rhonda> And claiming that it's "my" interpretation doesn't make it any more wrong, unfortunately.
20111114 16:25:00< Rhonda> Yes, I really like it. I like it so much that I was trying to work on getting planeshift packaged for Debian.
20111114 16:25:10< Rhonda> unfortunately, the license doesn't permit that, at all.
20111114 16:25:39< Talad> can be packaged with external repo
20111114 16:25:42< Rhonda> I do support free gaming to very big extends. That's why I am with wesnoth, and not with planeshift. It was their choice to be non-free gaming, not mine.
20111114 16:25:44< Talad> like everyone does
20111114 16:26:00< Rhonda> external repos are also in violation of their outset licenses.
20111114 16:26:21< Rhonda> That they don't pursue it is a different topic.  It is still in violation with their terms.
20111114 16:26:30< Talad> that's not correct
20111114 16:26:31< Rhonda> Doesn't make it right, though.
20111114 16:26:43< Talad> one of their main devs told me to do that
20111114 16:26:55< Talad> which was ok if the game was not commercial
20111114 16:27:08< Talad> and if the packaged part in debian was open source
20111114 16:27:19< Rhonda> so it's and offially blessed violation of their own license terms? "great", unfortunately doesn't hold much :)
20111114 16:27:39< Talad> well, people sometimes are reasonable
20111114 16:27:48< Talad> and do not just read the license literally
20111114 16:28:05< Talad> also any license can have special grants
20111114 16:28:13< Talad> and PS can grant special rights to debian if needed
20111114 16:28:53< Talad> as owner of the copyright you can release a special grant on top of the license
20111114 16:29:10< Talad> which is one of the reasons for copyright assignment.
20111114 16:29:29< Talad> projects without copyright assignment will have an issue in that sense
20111114 16:29:31< Rhonda> The license is the only thing that allows you actually to use stuff.  If we disregard licenses like that we have no right anymore to worry about having our OS code protected.
20111114 16:30:14< Rhonda> Right, they can grant whatever they like.  But that still wouldn't make it an OS game, it's still non-free.
20111114 16:30:15< Talad> I'm not saying to disregard the license, I'm saying that the copyright owner (for example of PlaneShift) releases a grant on top of the license
20111114 16:30:29< Talad> for example saying that Debian can distribute it as he pleases for x releases or so.
20111114 16:30:41< Rhonda> … which still wouldn't make it OS compatible and thus still not a free game.
20111114 16:30:48< Talad> it's non-free is your own view
20111114 16:30:59< Rhonda> that's not my view.
20111114 16:31:28< Talad> just search free games on google
20111114 16:31:34< Talad> and you will see how many interpretations there are
20111114 16:31:47< Talad> and anyway I did this discussion too many times
20111114 16:32:11< Talad> so don't worry, you can keep your "non-free" idea. :)
20111114 16:32:31< Rhonda> ah right. search "standart" as proper german term on google. all hail teh intarnetz :)
20111114 16:32:41< Talad> anyway I think wesnoth is non-free because it doesn't have a working rss feed
20111114 16:32:53< Talad> so it limits greatly my freedom
20111114 16:33:02< zookeeper> what the...
20111114 16:33:03< Talad> I'm sorry wesnoth is non free.
20111114 16:33:06< Rhonda> You are free to set one up yourself?
20111114 16:33:21< Talad> unfortunately not, as the web site is evilly controlled :)
20111114 16:33:26< Rhonda> Unfortunately, I am *not* free to change planeshift images myself.
20111114 16:33:41< Talad> yes, life is bad.... I understand your pov.
20111114 16:33:57< Rhonda> You don't, you dismiss it in a unconstructive childish way.
20111114 16:34:01< Talad> by the way lot of people changed PS images and contributed back
20111114 16:34:18< Crendgrim> euh... Wesnoth is unfree? interesting, interesting...
20111114 16:34:30< Talad> Crendgrim: it's a piece of soap opera, don't worry. :)
20111114 16:34:58< Crendgrim> yeah, but I wonder who's doing the soap.
20111114 16:35:13< Talad> well, I'm a roleplayer
20111114 16:35:31< Talad> so from soap to theater it's all good
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20111114 16:36:03< Talad> if you are interested in promoting FGA (the orange logo on wesnoth web site) please vote up our story on slashdot
20111114 16:36:11< Talad> http://slashdot.org/recent
20111114 16:36:18< Talad> it's there under "5 free games"
20111114 16:36:50< Rhonda> You are right, I have to discuss with Sirp about the potential impact of that, and potentially get it removed.
20111114 16:36:51< AI0867> I don't think I will
20111114 16:37:03< zookeeper> if i'd have an account i'd have voted it down, although for reasons other than what has been stated so far ;)
20111114 16:37:12< Talad> Rhonda: Sirp approved it and it's one of the founding members
20111114 16:37:29< Rhonda> That might be all fine and good, but he might not had been aware of the issue at that time.
20111114 16:37:30< Talad> and Nils as well
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20111114 16:37:47< AI0867> yeah, it got approved because it seemed like a reasonable idea at 0 cost to us
20111114 16:37:48< Talad> we discussed it for weeks, so I guess it's pretty aware of the concept
20111114 16:38:05< Talad> this is not limiting wesnoth in any way
20111114 16:38:10< Talad> it's a good way to advertize the project
20111114 16:38:21< Talad> and will bring more developers and players
20111114 16:38:24< AI0867> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=35321 <-- forum discussion on FGA
20111114 16:38:57< Talad> the fact you dislike PlaneShift client license has really little to do with that.
20111114 16:39:48< loonycyborg> I only know of planeshift by SA review :P
20111114 16:39:57< loonycyborg> http://www.somethingawful.com/d/mmo-roulette/planeshift.php
20111114 16:40:12< Talad> loonybot: that'ss another way to be known
20111114 16:40:12< loonybot> error: Unexpected end of request. Expected any symbol.
20111114 16:40:25< Rhonda> Well, humblebundle also brings more developers and players. Unfortunately not everything counts here.
20111114 16:40:30< Crendgrim> very interestingly, I mainly heared bad critique about the FGA, except from PS devs...
20111114 16:40:41< AI0867> loonybot << "Talad: I am not a person";
20111114 16:40:41< Talad> eh humblebundle are smarter than us, that's sure
20111114 16:40:50< loonybot> Talad: I am not a person
20111114 16:40:52< Talad> or just have more time
20111114 16:40:59< Talad> hi lobby
20111114 16:41:02< Talad> hi loonybot
20111114 16:41:09< Talad> mmmm.. .he doesn't answer though
20111114 16:41:13< Talad> bad roleplayer
20111114 16:41:21< Talad> loonybot: do you know roleplay?
20111114 16:41:21< loonybot> error: expected unqualified-id before 'do'
20111114 16:41:26< Talad> mmm
20111114 16:41:29< Talad> reallly bad
20111114 16:41:30< Talad> :)
20111114 16:41:33< AI0867> loonybot << "Talad: I am a geori bot (C++ evaluator)";
20111114 16:41:33< loonybot> Talad: I am a geori bot (C++ evaluator)
20111114 16:41:37< AI0867> geordi*
20111114 16:42:11< loonycyborg> Tab completion fails ftw
20111114 16:42:27< Talad> ah, I was hoping for a natural language bot
20111114 16:44:03< Talad> btw there will be other ways to promote the alliance
20111114 16:44:15 * wesbot claims to be neutral
20111114 16:44:18< Talad> I think /. is pretty hard to be in 
20111114 16:44:50< Talad> people really vote geek/new/cool things, which is natural
20111114 16:45:01< Talad> and there are anyway a number out there
20111114 16:45:18< Talad> the 5 games in question are already known and not much of a news for the typical slashdot voter
20111114 16:45:22< loonycyborg> I think that good idea for FGA would be to cover genres that got abandoned by mainstream companies, such as tactical RPGs and wargames.
20111114 16:45:44< Talad> we can add genres as we go
20111114 16:45:46< Talad> it's no problem
20111114 16:46:05< Talad> but considering I'm doing all the marketing I didn't want 10 as a start
20111114 16:46:18< Talad> the next in the list are : one spacesim
20111114 16:46:22< Talad> like pioneer or vegastrike
20111114 16:46:30< Talad> and maybe one isometric RPG
20111114 16:46:33< Talad> like freedroid
20111114 16:46:43< Talad> but then I need you guys to make those games great!!
20111114 16:46:50< Rhonda> I have no issue with promoting planeshift, it is nice and promising (or was at least, the few years back that I tried it)
20111114 16:47:01< Talad> we don't win just by listing those :)
20111114 16:47:02< Rhonda> I just have an issue with it being promoted as being an exceptional OSI compliant project.
20111114 16:47:11< Crendgrim> I thought the FGA was meant to make the included games great?
20111114 16:47:18< Talad> Rhonda: never been the case
20111114 16:47:38< Talad> Crendgrim: yes, with the support of the communities and developers
20111114 16:47:45< Crendgrim> so far, only "big" projects are included; not the ones which really need developers.
20111114 16:47:47< Talad> not magicwizzllly
20111114 16:48:16< Talad> Crendgrim: on one side I agree those are big projects, but on the other I can tell you most need developers
20111114 16:48:34< Talad> world is moving and projects need to keep up
20111114 16:48:39< Talad> wesnoth on mobile? :)
20111114 16:49:03< Talad> new gfx cards, new OSes, new protocols
20111114 16:49:08< Crendgrim> of course, each projects needs them; but there are plenty small projects nobody knows of, while they are awesome as well..
20111114 16:49:22< Talad> luckily wesnoth reached a VERY good maturity level
20111114 16:49:41< Crendgrim> IMHO the power of open source is diversity, not perfectionism
20111114 16:49:49< Talad> but it should take it to the next level with more story and campaign, and exandibility
20111114 16:50:12< Talad> Crendgrim: I understand. FGA is to show the world what volunteer projects can do
20111114 16:50:20< loonycyborg> Talad: What really would be really useful for FOSS game developers is a big shared pool of reusable artwork.
20111114 16:50:35< loonycyborg> Though not sure how practical the very idea is..
20111114 16:50:39< Talad> loonycyborg: depends on the project
20111114 16:50:45< Talad> for us is not useful at all
20111114 16:50:49< Talad> but for others can be
20111114 16:51:05< Talad> well, Ryzom released their art
20111114 16:51:09< Talad> but who wants to use it?
20111114 16:51:11< Crendgrim> loonycyborg: isn't that what OGA is for?
20111114 16:51:16< Talad> cannot make another game with the same chars really
20111114 16:51:48< loonycyborg> That's why I was wondering about practicality.
20111114 16:51:52< Talad> right
20111114 16:52:02< loonycyborg> But perhaps you can reuse textures and what-not.
20111114 16:52:03< Talad> I thought about it many times
20111114 16:52:14< Talad> for textures there are good resources already
20111114 16:52:25< Talad> for models there are a few
20111114 16:52:28< zookeeper> Talad, so is FGA actually only for volunteer projects, and if someone set up a project which actually pays people to work on it, they wouldn't qualify?
20111114 16:52:35< Talad> but when you make a game you want your "special" flavour
20111114 16:53:21< Talad> zookeeper: depends on the payment type. For example wesnoth and PlaneShift have been in Google summer of code
20111114 16:53:38< Talad> and had some paid developers for few months
20111114 16:54:00< zookeeper> so as long as the project is for the most part run by volunteers, it's ok?
20111114 16:54:06< Talad> but still it's volunteers showing up to help a project and get a reimbursement
20111114 16:54:41< Talad> zookeeper: yes, I think should be evaluated case by case, but let's say the majority of the project should be volunteer based
20111114 16:55:03< Talad> if it's not means it has funding and if it has good funding then it's no more a miracle :)
20111114 16:55:07< Talad> like projects in FGA are
20111114 16:55:13< Talad> we also excluded clones
20111114 16:55:17< Talad> and ex-commercial games
20111114 16:55:21< Talad> see 0AD
20111114 16:55:21< zookeeper> got it.
20111114 16:55:26< Talad> which is beautiful btw
20111114 16:55:45< Talad> but I will say it's easier to be a commercial project and then go OS :)
20111114 16:55:53< Talad> and say "look at that!"
20111114 16:56:16< Talad> on the other hand, if they provide a free game, that's great
20111114 16:56:18< zookeeper> well, i was about to say that if one really wanted to further OSS gaming, they'd need to start throwing money at it.
20111114 16:56:38< Talad> usually yes
20111114 16:56:41< Talad> and many do
20111114 16:56:47< Talad> maybe not gaming
20111114 16:56:49< Gambit> Yeah I thought you didn't like OS purists :)
20111114 16:56:53< Talad> but lot of other products
20111114 16:57:08< Talad> eh, throwing money at it, it's not purist at all :)
20111114 16:57:09< loonycyborg> Crendgrim: I remember about OGA. Though no idea how useful it's right now. Are assets from there used in many projects?
20111114 16:57:26< Gambit> Talad: But you excluded ex-commercial products
20111114 16:57:33< Crendgrim> I think so, at least
20111114 16:57:55< Crendgrim> I know of some projects hosted on freegamedev.net which are using OGA
20111114 16:59:14< Talad> for art I can tell you it's pretty hard
20111114 16:59:31< Talad> becasue if the asset is very generic can be reused, but then it's not very interesting
20111114 16:59:46< Talad> if the asset is very specific/special then it's hard to reuse
20111114 16:59:59< Talad> but for example, google maps
20111114 17:00:13< Talad> if you start to make buildings in 3d of all big monuments, that's reusable
20111114 17:00:25< Talad> a fly simulator can use it
20111114 17:00:30< Talad> google earth can
20111114 17:00:31< Talad> etc...
20111114 17:00:51< Talad> so if it's mimic-ing a real thing I think it's really reusable
20111114 17:01:08< Talad> but if it's fantasy or art, I think it's hard to reuse
20111114 17:01:17< zookeeper> i've had an idea of a fly simulator for years and years. you'd play flies, bees and mosquitoes, trying to conduct your everyday tasks without getting eaten or swatted.
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20111114 17:02:19< Gambit> That actually sounds pretty neat.
20111114 17:02:25< Gambit> Especially the mosquito part.
20111114 17:03:02< Talad> zookeeper: just make a model for http://flightgear.org/
20111114 17:03:13< Talad> that is another candidate for FGA btw
20111114 17:03:29< Talad> not sure about the rudder on a bee....
20111114 17:03:53< zookeeper> i don't think a fly/bee/mosquito model in a flight sim is going to make for a very good game.
20111114 17:06:19< Talad> making a very good game needs 50 people for 2 years minimum
20111114 17:06:21< Talad> that's the problem.
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20111114 17:06:37< Talad> ... OR ... you can just join one of the 5 :)
20111114 17:06:55< Talad> and add your mosquito beast to xonotic 
20111114 17:07:06< zookeeper> depends on the game type and scope.
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20111114 17:08:25< zookeeper> a game with a scope of an commercial AAA game takes 50 people for 2 years, sure. something smaller and more feasible for a volunteer effort, not so much.
20111114 17:08:49< Talad> agreed
20111114 17:08:59< Talad> if the game is small an neat it usually works
20111114 17:09:06 * AI0867 points at frogatto
20111114 17:09:17< Talad> angry bird 
20111114 17:09:26< Talad> millions of downloads :)
20111114 17:09:57< zookeeper> yeah. even wesnoth qualifies, since most of the scope is in non-essential content.
20111114 17:10:04< Talad> who was mentioning retro gaming?
20111114 17:10:26< Talad> I think retrogaming can be nice, but isn't that more than one genre only?
20111114 17:10:38< Talad> anyway if you want to discuss FGA you should join #fga
20111114 17:10:48< Talad> otherwise we dominate with off-topic here
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20111114 17:12:03< zookeeper> the games in FGA other than planeshift actually have pretty reasonable scopes, unfortunately they're all uninteresting except for wesnoth of course ;)
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20111114 17:12:29< zookeeper> and if i bash FGA then i'll rather do it elsewhere
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20111114 17:14:12< Gambit> I'd like to try RoR, but I just can't justify tying up my connection for that long on something that might not work.
20111114 17:15:07< matthiaskrgr> I tried to get it running, but the build was broken at that time
20111114 17:15:07< Gambit> No linux builds, and a gigabyte in dependencies in order to compile the source :\
20111114 17:15:17< Gambit> Some of which must also be downloaded and compiled from their source code.
20111114 17:15:47< Gambit> Off for class. Bye.
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20111114 17:35:26< Ivanovic> Talad: regarding the discussion about free and non-free:
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20111114 17:36:34< Ivanovic> personally i see a difference between "open source engine" (like it is the case with frogatto where the engine is open source and the game assetts (like graphics and levels) are "ask us for permisison if you want to somehow distribute it!") and "open source game" where all assetts are released under a license following the OSI standards
20111114 17:38:05< Talad> http://www.frogatto.com/about
20111114 17:38:10< Talad> Frogatto is an open-source “platformer” game
20111114 17:38:55< Talad> I personally see no problem in that anyway
20111114 17:39:15< Talad> including the chapter at the bottom of that page
20111114 17:39:45< Talad> to which I agree.
20111114 17:40:08< Ivanovic> http://www.frogatto.com/developer
20111114 17:40:15< Ivanovic> "Our code is open-source, our content isn’t."
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20111114 17:40:28< Talad> we have the same :)
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20111114 17:40:39< Talad> you dont' have to convince me.
20111114 17:40:40< Ivanovic> so for me this is an open source engine
20111114 17:40:58< Ivanovic> and yeah, people *can* see a difference between open source engine and open source game
20111114 17:41:33< Talad> even "open source" is debatable
20111114 17:41:37< Talad> there are so many different licenses
20111114 17:41:48< Talad> and each gives many different levels of freedom
20111114 17:41:50< Ivanovic> Talad: that is why Rhonda explicitly mentioned the OSI compatible ones
20111114 17:42:09< Ivanovic> which is often seen as the main criteria if something is an open source license or not
20111114 17:42:25< Talad> for source code
20111114 17:42:39< Talad> FGA doesn't impose any restriction on art
20111114 17:42:40< Ivanovic> Talad: in the case of wesnoth, what is source code?
20111114 17:42:49< Ivanovic> are the wml files which define the levels sourcecode?
20111114 17:43:00< Talad> source code is not art
20111114 17:43:17< Talad> "code" is defined as text of some kind
20111114 17:43:18< Ivanovic> respectively: are the level files in 3d games (being 3d meshs) sourcecode?
20111114 17:43:23< Talad> a programming language
20111114 17:43:32< Talad> no
20111114 17:43:41< Talad> 3d models are not source code.
20111114 17:43:45< Ivanovic> but they do exactly the same what eg a map in wesnoth describes
20111114 17:43:58< Ivanovic> plain placement of graphics objects
20111114 17:44:02< Talad> well, philosophy again :)
20111114 17:44:05< Talad> I'm not a fan of it
20111114 17:44:22< Talad> to me OS licenses are made to promote open development
20111114 17:44:30< Ivanovic> doing the destinction of "it is some form of text file" is not too good IMO
20111114 17:44:31< Talad> not to make lawyers rich
20111114 17:44:43< Ivanovic> since eg the documents saved by libreoffice are some kind of xml files
20111114 17:44:52< Talad> Ivanovic: probably better as it's a programming language
20111114 17:45:03< Ivanovic> though no normal human would ever hand edit them unless there is a *dire* need
20111114 17:45:36< Talad> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code
20111114 17:45:40< Ivanovic> the same is most likely valid for most 3d mashes
20111114 17:45:42< Talad> "In computer science, source code is text written using the format and syntax of the programming language that it is being written in"
20111114 17:45:51< Talad> that's the meaning
20111114 17:45:54< Ivanovic> which might easily be described in xml files or the likes
20111114 17:46:03< Talad> then you can dig around it as much as you want and make lawyers rich :)
20111114 17:46:29< Ivanovic> it is always a question of the definition, eg in wesnoth we see the artwork as some kind of sourcecode, too
20111114 17:46:37< Talad> so we are an open source code (or open source for short) game.
20111114 17:46:37< Ivanovic> so the artwork falls under the gpl, too
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20111114 19:47:54< CIA-81> ivanovic * r51970 /trunk/po/wesnoth-lib/lv.po: updated Latvian translation
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20111114 20:01:46< mordante> servus
20111114 20:03:11< Espreon> mordante: Ic grete þe.
20111114 20:03:19< mordante> hail Espreon 
20111114 20:03:22< Espreon> Hee hee.
20111114 20:03:55< Espreon> mordante: In the campaign description part of the "Play a campaign" dialog, ampersands cause GUI2 to believe that there's invalid markup.
20111114 20:04:47-!- knotwork_ [~markm@unaffiliated/knotwork] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20111114 20:04:49< mordante> it's invalid markup ;-) good catch, will fix it
20111114 20:05:03< Espreon> All right.
20111114 20:05:24< shadowmaster> ampersands don't really belong in a description label IMO
20111114 20:05:42< shadowmaster> that is, stylistically speaking
20111114 20:06:06< Espreon> shadowmaster: Yes, but it's possible that the error could show up in other places.
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20111114 20:06:20< Espreon> I haven't really tested other stuff.
20111114 20:06:29< shadowmaster> shouldn't they use &amp; then?
20111114 20:06:37< mordante> »shadowmaster's awesome campaign« also contains invalid markup ;-)
20111114 20:06:37< Espreon> They shouldn't have to.
20111114 20:06:47< shadowmaster> mordante: no, it doesn't.
20111114 20:07:09< mordante> shadowmaster, it does
20111114 20:07:20< shadowmaster> unless you meant that literally, and weren't referring to my actual campaigns
20111114 20:07:42< mordante> yes needed an example with a quote
20111114 20:07:53< shadowmaster> Espreon: ah, you've never written XML or HTML documents, have you? :p
20111114 20:08:10< mordante> Espreon, it needs it, but of course the engine needs to do the escaping
20111114 20:08:10< Espreon> Nope.
20111114 20:08:53< Espreon> I see.
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20111114 20:11:16< shadowmaster> esr: you are obviously around now, right?
20111114 20:13:00< shadowmaster> I guess that was a too optimistic guess.
20111114 20:17:39< elias> that's the drawback of using irc clients like irssi
20111114 20:18:06< elias> oh, he isn't
20111114 20:18:46< shadowmaster> There's nothing wrong with real IRC clients. Browser-dependent crap, on the other hand...
20111114 20:18:56< mordante> shadowmaster, haven't been able to reproduce the editor problem, ran into problems compiling boost
20111114 20:19:04< shadowmaster> foo
20111114 20:20:19< shadowmaster> well, I'm not going to do anything about it myself since I don't know whether my fix is truly a fix or just a coincidental work-around for some memory corrutipn issue.
20111114 20:21:56< shadowmaster> mordante: wait. Boost.foreach shouldn't require compilation.
20111114 20:22:24< shadowmaster> You could just change src/foreach.hpp so it points to the newer version and test locally.
20111114 20:22:58< mordante> good one... will give that a try
20111114 20:24:55< iwontbecreative> If it can help, i noticed thta sometimes the editor would bug too if you add very large amounts of terrain (especially water) to large maps (e.g. using the fill tool), but it is not always reproducible and I guess that is another issue.
20111114 20:26:08< shadowmaster> it certainly gets stuck here filling a 200x200 map with deep water, but perhaps that's just a problem with the implementation of animated terrains/terraini n general and it'll come back after some minutes
20111114 20:27:16< shadowmaster> hm, or perhaps not.
20111114 20:27:30< mordante> loonybot, << RAND_MAX
20111114 20:27:31< loonybot> 2147483647
20111114 20:29:24< shadowmaster> it seems to get stuck in editor::editor_controller::refresh_after_action at the foreach loop, but it could well be that the operation in question is that slow
20111114 20:30:19< iwontbecreative> shadowmaster. Doesn't need to be a 200*200 map in my case. Just pick defautl size, fill with water, fill with something else, repeat until it segfaults.
20111114 20:30:32< iwontbecreative> shadowmaster: it doesn't get stuck, it segfaults.
20111114 20:30:44< iwontbecreative> Guess that's yet another report
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20111114 20:31:47< shadowmaster> iwontbecreative: doesn't segfault for me either, but it also gets stuck in a loop after doing that repeatedly
20111114 20:32:34< shadowmaster> until that happens, the operation is instant and doesn't cause any visible lag. COnsidering the location at which the loop is occurring is the same of the symbol_image crash bug, well...
20111114 20:33:02< mordante> wesbot seen alarantalara
20111114 20:33:02< wesbot> mordante: The person with the nick Alarantalara last spoke 2d 3h ago.  1d 22h ago they were seen quitting on the channel #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: Remote host closed the connection
20111114 20:34:49< shadowmaster> iwontbecreative: I'll post in the bug report about that anyway, just in case.
20111114 20:35:20< iwontbecreative> shadowmaster: Ok. I will eat now and brb if you need me to test something.
20111114 20:40:04< mordante> Espreon, I thought you meant in the title of the addon, not in the description
20111114 20:40:25< mordante> if we want to allow markup in the description the user needs to use &amp;
20111114 20:40:28< Gambit> Ivanovic, Talad|Away: So what you're saying is that Planeshift is a commercial game built on an open source engine, but it is *not* an open source game?
20111114 20:40:45< mordante> of course it could be fixed, but it might be wrong
20111114 20:41:31< mordante> I'll see what I can do, I have some ideas
20111114 20:41:46< shadowmaster> we allow markup in the description right now and that's intentional. Please don't change that!
20111114 20:42:00< mordante> i didn't intent to do that
20111114 20:42:06< mordante> s/i/I/
20111114 20:42:35< shadowmaster> yeah, but *I* did
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20111114 21:05:50< mordante> ha <u>&</u> now works (at least does what Espreon would expect)
20111114 21:08:09< Espreon> Well, my case had no markup whatsoever.
20111114 21:09:44< mordante> doesn't matter ;-) even the abomination above now works
20111114 21:11:36< Espreon> Hee hee.
20111114 21:14:42< mordante> using markup and not escaping a special markup character is an abomination
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20111114 21:37:25< CIA-81> mordante * r51971 /trunk/ (changelog src/text.cpp src/text.hpp): 
20111114 21:37:25< CIA-81> Try to recover from broken pango-markup.
20111114 21:37:25< CIA-81> Espreon noticed an ampersand in a campaign description breaks the
20111114 21:37:25< CIA-81> description markup. Now try to recover from unescaped ampersands. The
20111114 21:37:25< CIA-81> rest of the broken markup remains broken (pango seems to handle
20111114 21:37:26< CIA-81> unescaped single quotes and double quotes properly).
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20111114 21:55:06< mordante> I'm off night
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20111114 22:30:43< fendrin> hi
20111114 22:32:18< fendrin> Ivanovic: Hello, regarding the FOSDEM dev room, isn't it a good idea to cooperate with the other projects that are part of the Free Game Alliance? 
20111114 22:33:03< Ivanovic> fendrin: sure, that is why i made sure that Talad|Away, as the "main" founder of the FGA, is aware of it
20111114 22:33:56< fendrin> Nice, I feel really excited and looking forward to the next FOSDEM.
20111114 22:35:10< Ivanovic> fendrin: so do i
20111114 22:35:20< Ivanovic> that is: i hope everything works out nicely
20111114 22:38:48< fendrin> I think that an old connection is reactivatable, who once produced professional looking posters for my small business.
20111114 22:39:23< fendrin> We could have them to sign our dev room or even sell or give them away for free if we want.
20111114 22:43:46< fendrin> Ivanovic: ^
20111114 22:44:28< Ivanovic> jepp, would be cool to have though we would first have to find something sane to print on
20111114 22:44:51< Ivanovic> possibly with a logo for each org that has a speaker
20111114 22:45:52< fendrin> Right, maybe some high resolution image from kitty or another art dev for our purposes.
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20111114 23:04:27< Ivanovic> this would just be lovely!
20111114 23:04:42< Ivanovic> fendrin: it would be great if you could propose something like this on the ML for the fosdem dev room
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20111114 23:35:32< fendrin> Ivanovic: Yeah, I will see to do it over the week.
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20111114 23:37:30< fendrin> Ivanovic: But let me contact my old friend first, I am not even sure if he is still in the same business.
20111114 23:43:00< Ivanovic> sounds good to me
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--- Log closed Tue Nov 15 00:00:48 2011