--- Log opened Wed Dec 07 00:00:42 2011
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20111207 03:29:29< cyphase> what exactly does the 'Ambushed' notification indicate? adjacent enemies from more than one team?
20111207 03:30:53< shadowmaster> that you encountered a previously invisible unit that was making use of its ambush, concealment, nightstalk or a custom ability
20111207 03:36:53< cyphase> aah, i needed one more turn in this scenario
20111207 03:37:51< cyphase> i wasted some turns before i realized i didnt have enough gold
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20111207 08:42:44< Ivanovic> moin
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20111207 13:26:10< csarmi_work> hmm anyone knows what happened to my csarmi_home nick? he should be online
20111207 13:28:22< csarmi_work> As far as I know I left my laptop online at home.
20111207 13:28:30< atomicbomb> csarmi_work: [14:52:51] <-- csarmi_home (csarmi@94-21-124-226.pool.digikabel.hu) has quit
20111207 13:29:24< atomicbomb> it's 19.28 here now, so it quit around 5 hours ago
20111207 13:31:25< csarmi_work> strange
20111207 13:31:51< csarmi_work> that would be 08:52 for me and I left home at 08:10
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20111207 19:08:10< cyphase> i can switch back and forth between 1.8.5 and 1.8.6 with no problems, right?
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20111207 19:12:15< shadowmaster> since both are in the same stable series (1.8), they are mutually compatible, but there shouldn't be a reason to keep the older one around
20111207 19:13:16< cyphase> shadowmaster, different computers
20111207 19:14:11< shadowmaster> if you are playing single player campaigns and there's a mainline campaign in 1.8.6 that's received fixes, odd situations could arise depending on what version you used to start a specific scenario, though
20111207 19:14:29< cyphase> hmm
20111207 19:14:45< shadowmaster> according to the changelog that'd only be relevant for THoT scenario "High Pass"
20111207 19:15:11< cyphase> where's the changelog?
20111207 19:15:36< shadowmaster> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/tags/1.8.6/changelog
20111207 19:17:08< cyphase> thanks
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20111207 19:45:46< Ivanovic> cyphase: keep in mind that the changelog might be missing some things (since there really are devs that forget to enter something when they fix a bug)
20111207 19:48:59< cyphase> Ivanovic, yea, that crossed my mind. i'm gonna stay on 1.8.5 at least until i finish TSG
20111207 19:49:24< Ivanovic> though before releasing 1.8.6 we basically went through the commit list to explicitly extract everything
20111207 19:49:36< Ivanovic> (a stable release with "not too many" commits, so this was possible)
20111207 19:49:47< cyphase> problem is the ubuntu natty repos dont have 1.8.6, and i havent found a repo yet that does
20111207 19:49:51< Ivanovic> but in dev releases there is often something missing from the logs
20111207 19:50:53< cyphase> ah.. https://launchpad.net/~vincent-c/+archive/wesnoth
20111207 19:51:09< Ivanovic> why not use the debian binaries from Rhonda?
20111207 19:51:23< Ivanovic> the package might be called wesnoth-1.8 though
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20111207 20:48:26< csarmi> would 1.9.10. saves work in 1.9.12. ?
20111207 20:48:53< csarmi> I supposed they might because of the stat fix?
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20111207 21:14:49 * Rhonda peeks at cyphase 
20111207 21:14:53< cyphase> lol, beat the final scenario of TSG in 4 turns by going around
20111207 21:15:00< cyphase> Rhonda, yea?
20111207 21:15:22< Rhonda> whoever vincent-c is, he's not the real maintainer
20111207 21:15:31< Rhonda> so be careful with that archive
20111207 21:16:14< cyphase> yea, i know
20111207 21:16:16< Rhonda> But I guess I'll contact him.
20111207 21:16:27< cyphase> i saw your dev ppa. is there an official stable ppa?
20111207 21:16:50< Rhonda> there is 1.8.5 in lucid-backports
20111207 21:17:34< cyphase> i'm on natty, which has 1.8.5 in the repo
20111207 21:19:53< Rhonda> I would like to do 1.8.6 backports, only, time and harddisk limitations block me.
20111207 21:20:46< Rhonda> If someone could sponsor me a proper laptop with proper diskspace (and a proper display …)_I would be more than willing to offer 1.8.6 through the official ubuntu backports channels.
20111207 21:28:21< cyphase> this is probably a standard question, but are there some recommended orders of playing the campaigns?
20111207 21:33:18< Ivanovic> cyphase: the general thing is that the campaigns are ordered by difficulty
20111207 21:33:33< Ivanovic> though heir to the throne is more difficult than some of the other campaigns listed at the top
20111207 21:33:41< Ivanovic> because that is *the* historical "main" campaign
20111207 21:34:58< Crendgrim> HttT is quite difficult especially because of its length..
20111207 21:35:16< cyphase> 25 scenarios sounds epic
20111207 21:35:17< Crendgrim> and it certainly is frustrating for new players to get stuck on the very first campaign because of being bored
20111207 21:35:40< Crendgrim> I felt into the same hole, and I know some others I introduced to Wesnoth who stopped playing after doing the same
20111207 21:38:00< cyphase> so should i wait for HttT until i've done all the novice campaigns?
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20111207 21:42:33< Ivanovic> yes
20111207 21:57:20< csarmi> or you can play some multiplayer games (1v1 or 2v2 preferably) and that should teach you fast
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20111207 21:58:36< Crendgrim> well, MP and SP are two totally different things
20111207 21:59:19< csarmi> They are, but if you get to any not-noob level in MP you'll have no problems in campaigns.
20111207 21:59:31< Crendgrim> not necessarily
20111207 21:59:42< Crendgrim> campaigns are requiring different tactics
20111207 21:59:51< csarmi> somewhat
20111207 22:00:08< Crendgrim> both because you have to play different against the AI than against human opponents, and because you have to plan also for the following scenarios
20111207 22:00:22< blarumyrran> Sun Tzu's art of backtoturn29
20111207 22:01:05< csarmi> I've yet to see a wesnoth campaign where you need foresight for next scenarios.
20111207 22:01:59< csarmi> I mean where you really need it and you can't get away with standard tactics like not getting your units killed and level reasonable units.
20111207 22:02:51< blarumyrran> Have you played through any of the mammoth campaigns (httt, trow, utbs) on harder difficulties?
20111207 22:03:11< csarmi> yes
20111207 22:05:32< Crendgrim> csarmi: I need it.
20111207 22:05:56< Crendgrim> I don't regard myself anymore as a "noob" MP player, but I'm technically a noob on campaign play
20111207 22:06:09< csarmi> There are some scenarios where knowledge of the map is needed, normal play would get you screwed.
20111207 22:06:18< Crendgrim> I never beated any of the campaigns without cheating, except for Two Brothers once
20111207 22:06:51< csarmi> But there is not much to do about that except to play it twice.
20111207 22:07:03< blarumyrran> trow in particular is notorious because you had two HIs in an early level that were placed there by the designer just for the purpose of that scenario, and they were meant to die there valiantly defending your other units; however later on in the campaign you would face lots of skeletons, and if you saved the HIs early on, then some of the difficult scenarios later on become very doable on first try
20111207 22:07:47< csarmi> Because usually you get no real hints as for what your unusual tactics should be anyway.
20111207 22:08:04< csarmi> Yea I think I remember those HI's.
20111207 22:08:33< csarmi> But I don't think it's easy to lose them. It's sensible to keep your units alive and your recall list flexible.
20111207 22:08:54< csarmi> It's bee a loooong time since I last played it however.
20111207 22:09:09< blarumyrran> But if you play that scenario the way that the campaign creator meant it to be played, then you do lose them
20111207 22:09:12< csarmi> *been
20111207 22:11:05< csarmi> which map is it?
20111207 22:11:50< csarmi> The Fall?
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20111207 22:15:00< csarmi> I don't think it's reasonable to expect the player to lose loyal units.
20111207 22:17:12< csarmi> Maybe the campaign's creator thought it would be a nice touch to put heavy infantry into those forts but come on, should they wait there getting posioned and killed easily?
20111207 22:17:18< zookeeper> it's reasonable to expect the player to lose loyal units which are presented as being there for the purpose of holding back an unstoppable enemy
20111207 22:17:53< csarmi> ah
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20111207 22:18:09< csarmi> I'd modify their movetype
20111207 22:18:57< zookeeper> ..?
20111207 22:19:39< csarmi> make the map outline and their movetypes so that they can't retreat
20111207 22:20:22< zookeeper> that doesn't make any sense. what are you going to do, make them unable to move on flat or make some mountains sprout up between scenarios?
20111207 22:20:54< zookeeper> the simplest "fix" is to simply make them not loyal
20111207 22:21:12< csarmi> but putting two heavy infantryman into a fort without any support, village, backup and healing is foolish
20111207 22:21:35< csarmi> I mean my first move would be to retreat with them for sure
20111207 22:22:18< csarmi> but yea if you want them to stay in the fort make them move 99 on flat
20111207 22:22:27< csarmi> :)
20111207 22:22:28< zookeeper> well... there's no shortage of foolish tactical and strategic decisions in wesnoth :J
20111207 22:23:06< csarmi> yea I understand that but I shouln't be expected to play foolish I think
20111207 22:23:11< csarmi> this is a strategy game
20111207 22:23:49< csarmi> mbtw I think just a patch of ice or two would make their retreat impossible
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20111207 22:24:27< csarmi> you can also remove them from your recall list or never add them
20111207 22:24:47< csarmi> which would make perfect sense
20111207 22:25:41< csarmi> as for foolish I mean they aren't even serving their purpose of stopping that unstoppable enemy orcs move 2 on mountains
20111207 22:26:01< csarmi> it's not as if they had any trouble going around
20111207 22:26:03< zookeeper> "I shouln't be expected to play foolish" <- yes, the point is that the choices implicitly suggested by the layout of the scenario contradicts what the sensible choice is.
20111207 22:27:04< cyphase> so what's the 'intended' way to win the last scenario in TSG (Vengeance)?
20111207 22:27:06< csarmi> I can recall using those infantryman later and they're helpful (vague memories) but can't you recruit some wesfolk by then anyway?
20111207 22:27:28< cyphase> the one where every enemy you kill makes 2 more spawn
20111207 22:27:42< blarumyrran> wesfolk have physical weaknesses, HI have resistance
20111207 22:28:08< csarmi> wesfolk have better defense
20111207 22:28:12< zookeeper> cyphase, just get her on the tree ASAP so you don't have to suffer the brokenness of that scenario's design for so long
20111207 22:29:01< csarmi> but yes in long campaigns you WILL get hit 4/4 on 70% a few times
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20111207 22:29:32< csarmi> so resist is safer than defense
20111207 22:30:18< csarmi> anyway my only point was that if you can beat humans you can beat the AI
20111207 22:30:27< csarmi> and the learning curve is faster
20111207 22:30:45< cyphase> lol
20111207 22:30:49< csarmi> also it was a suggestion only which migth or might not help cyphase
20111207 22:30:59< csarmi> depending on his playstyle
20111207 22:31:07< csarmi> but might be worth considering
20111207 22:31:32< cyphase> zookeeper, yea, that's what i ended up doing. i put all my units in front to draw the enemy, then sent ethilel(sp?) up over and down
20111207 22:31:34< cyphase> took 4 turns
20111207 22:32:38< zookeeper> cyphase, yep. you know why it's that easy? because before, you weren't told what the objective really is until X turns into the scenario... it sucks now too, but at least it sucks by being too easy, not game-breakingly frustrating when you play it the first time.
20111207 22:33:20< cyphase> i'm on 1.8.5, but i did see a changelog in 1.9.x about the objective being revealed
20111207 22:33:25< zookeeper> it's just waiting for someone to overhaul the whole scenario into something which makes more sense. that'd be my job, too :J
20111207 22:33:30< cyphase> not sure what that's about, as there was only one objective as far as i saw
20111207 22:33:34< csarmi> well yes there are some game-breakingly frustrating scenarios
20111207 22:33:49< csarmi> for example northern rebirth map 2
20111207 22:35:05< csarmi> you are expected to do your first few turns perfect (knowing the map) or get stuck forever
20111207 22:35:07< zookeeper> cyphase, yes, the change i mentioned was done before 1.8 already
20111207 22:35:12< csarmi> I find those scenarios unfair
20111207 22:35:17< zookeeper> and they are
20111207 22:35:40< zookeeper> no one's just fixed them yet
20111207 22:35:55< zookeeper> and there wasn't very tight quality control on that sort of things back when all these campaigns got added
20111207 22:36:12< csarmi> well actually
20111207 22:36:23< csarmi> footpad nerf killed that scanrio
20111207 22:36:29< csarmi> scenario
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20111207 22:37:37< csarmi> maybe the ranged damage increase in 1.9.10. fixed it bit it looked quite impossible to me in 1.9.9.
20111207 22:37:53< csarmi> I mean impossible without big luck
20111207 22:37:56< cyphase> zookeeper, search for "final objective". it's under 1.9. do you know what that's about? http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/tags/1.9.11/players_changelog
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20111207 22:39:03< csarmi> Creating scenarios withreasonable challenges and real difficulty levels is very hardy anyway.
20111207 22:39:41< csarmi> by real difficulty levels I mean solutions that aren't about decreasing max turns by X and available gold by Y
20111207 22:39:49< csarmi> but smth creative
20111207 22:42:12< zookeeper> cyphase, ah, looks like it was added after 1.8, in 1.8.1 and 1.9.0
20111207 22:44:42< zookeeper> and yes, combining interesting gameplay with story, varying objectives and all that is sometimes pretty tricky
20111207 22:48:11< zookeeper> ...at least if they need to be fixed afterwards because they weren't considered when the campaign was originally designed and written
20111207 22:48:54< zookeeper> some of the more unfortunately-designed scenarios have been improved over time, but there's still quite a few offenders around
20111207 22:49:56< zookeeper> anyways, i ought to be going ->
20111207 22:51:47< csarmi> me too
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--- Log closed Thu Dec 08 00:00:48 2011