--- Log opened Mon Jan 09 00:00:03 2012
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20120109 00:20:54< fendrin> shadowm_laptop: Then I guess you will also dislike https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?19251
20120109 00:24:24< shadowmaster> Of course. I read it the other night.
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20120109 00:49:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.9.14 aka 1.10-rc1, announcing "soon" | HARD string and feature-freeze active for trunk and the 1.10 announcment | 158 bugs, 332 feature requests, 14 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20120109 04:08:58< CIA-91> alarantalara * r52551 /trunk/projectfiles/Xcode/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Update Xcode project version numbers to 1.9.14
20120109 04:11:29< CIA-91> alarantalara * r52552 /trunk/projectfiles/Xcode/English.lproj/InfoPlist.strings: Update copyright to 2012 in Xcode project
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20120109 04:14:13< Alarantalara> Incidentally, the contents of InfoPlist.strings is localizable
20120109 04:15:43< CIA-91> espreon * r52553 /trunk/Doxyfile: Bumped the version number.
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20120109 04:33:20< Alarantalara> Mac OS X package for 1.9.14 uploaded
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20120109 04:36:19< CIA-91> alarantalara * r52554 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/internal-generic.cfg: Remove tags ignored by engine (as reported by lipk in http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=35832
20120109 04:41:11< vultraz> Alarantalara: wherewherehwere
20120109 04:42:28< vultraz> :D
20120109 04:43:29< Alarantalara> The usual place: https://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/wesnoth/wesnoth-1.9.14/
20120109 04:44:28< Alarantalara> Espreon: note that vultraz is becoming Anglo-Saxon in his excitement. You should approve
20120109 04:47:30 * vultraz downloads
20120109 04:47:36< vultraz> thanks Alarantalara :D
20120109 04:49:21< Espreon> Alarantalara: Maybe...
20120109 04:49:45< Alarantalara> hwere is definitely good Old English
20120109 04:50:10< Espreon> ...
20120109 04:50:22< Espreon> And sadly, I cannot input ash.
20120109 04:51:02< Espreon> Hold on.
20120109 04:53:14< Espreon> Alarantalara: No, "hwær" is Old English for "where".
20120109 04:54:15< Alarantalara> Yes, but it's probably too much to expect vultraz to be familiar with non-ASCII characters
20120109 04:54:41< Espreon> There was no "hwaer" in his babbling.
20120109 04:54:47< Espreon> ... so blargh.
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20120109 04:59:11< Alarantalara> And I suppose you won't accept that he wrote: "pot to water"?
20120109 05:00:31< Espreon> Maybe; maybe not.
20120109 05:00:41< Espreon> Not right now.
20120109 05:00:47< shadowmaster> Generally, when vultraz pastes UTF-8 sequences from AtS, they are corrupted.
20120109 05:01:35< vultraz> stupid chatzilla apparently won't read them 
20120109 05:03:34< Alarantalara> So I should be looking out for hw?r, I guess
20120109 05:04:03< shadowmaster> vultraz: That's why you should use a real IRC cnlient, and not those crappy embedded solutions.
20120109 05:04:18< shadowmaster> Especially since some IRC clients have spellchecking, which I could use at this point.
20120109 05:06:00< Espreon> Alarantalara: Assuming that corrupt character is ash, yes.
20120109 05:06:12< Espreon> shadowmaster: Also allow the "w" to be "uu", "w", or wynn.
20120109 05:06:20< Espreon> Whoops.
20120109 05:06:21< un214> get me a good free irc client for windows
20120109 05:06:27< Espreon> I meant Alarantalara.
20120109 05:06:35< un214> I sent someone to chatzilla once after some trouble
20120109 05:09:10< shadowmaster> I have no idea why I should do your research for you.
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20120109 05:09:31< un214> I'm merely pointing the rationale behind using chatzilla
20120109 05:10:06< shadowmaster> It doesn't sound very good to me.
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20120109 05:10:37< shadowmaster> Furthermore, the person to whom my message was directed is not you, and he uses Mac OS X, not Windows.
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20120109 05:11:51< un214> in which case he has a more appropraiate choice
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20120109 06:00:37< Tuggers> So since I have some time off before winter break starts, I want to ask some questions about Google Summer of Code
20120109 06:00:52< Tuggers> Did anyone ever implement the spritesheets project?
20120109 06:01:15< Tuggers> It wasn't listed as accepted on the Google page, so I assume it hasn't been done
20120109 06:01:49< un214> I would not recommend spritesheets
20120109 06:02:43< Espreon> Tuggers: That project was not done.
20120109 06:03:40< Tuggers> un214: why not?
20120109 06:04:17< un214> royal pain in the behind for accessing individual unit sprites individually in source control
20120109 06:05:23< Tuggers> well actually I have an idea that I think has most of the benefits of spritesheets with few of the drawbacks
20120109 06:05:41< Espreon> Let's hear it.
20120109 06:05:57< Tuggers> putting the .pngs in an archive and then (optionally) compressing it
20120109 06:06:28< Espreon> Ummm...
20120109 06:06:29< Tuggers> you could do the archiving/compressing at compile time
20120109 06:06:47< Espreon> I dunno...
20120109 06:07:14< un214> actually that sounds like a good idea
20120109 06:07:29< un214> although it adds a build-dep on optipng
20120109 06:08:16< Tuggers> so that way the files are kept separate for the developers and you don't have to spend time messing around with WML files, placing the sprites on a spritesheet, un-spritesheeting the sprites, etc
20120109 06:09:08< Tuggers> actually there's a very simple archive called .pak that was used in quake
20120109 06:09:20< Tuggers> description here: http://debian.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/~sergei/cgsr/docs/pak.txt
20120109 06:09:31< un214> there's a simpler one on *nix called cpio
20120109 06:10:14< chrisoelmueller> allow me to add that we do the same thing, revisioning single files and generating sheets for release balls / packages
20120109 06:10:41< Tuggers> I use debian so I'm not familiar with cpio
20120109 06:11:33< un214> the CPIO file format is very simple; however it is not seekable
20120109 06:11:37< chrisoelmueller> [which means we don't even need to add dependencies for everybody, just our packagers need to have them when they assemble a new pkg]
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20120109 06:15:38< Tuggers> So what do you use to generate sheets?
20120109 06:15:51< Tuggers> Do you have a custom program?
20120109 06:16:37< Tuggers> Also how do you store the position/dimension of sprites?
20120109 06:17:49< Tuggers> chrisoelmueller
20120109 06:18:43< chrisoelmueller> Tuggers: our engine provides a tool to assemble them. http://wiki.fifengine.net/Atlas_Creator
20120109 06:18:59< chrisoelmueller> so yeah, pretty custom
20120109 06:19:16< chrisoelmueller> and there's xml files in the regular fife format that describe the sheet
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20120109 06:21:03< Tuggers> So it's similar to the spritesheet/wml suggestion on the site
20120109 06:22:13< Tuggers> I was thinking, if the Wesnoth developers choose to go the spritesheet route, maybe the wml file could be included in the spritesheet .png as a COMMENT
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20120109 06:22:42< Espreon> LOL, wut?
20120109 06:23:42< Tuggers> The .png specification allows you to store text metadata in images in what's called a COMMENT block
20120109 06:24:22< Espreon> Ah.
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20120109 06:24:52< Espreon> Didn't know that.
20120109 06:25:26< Tuggers> Problem is it would make it hard to edit the wml file in a text editor
20120109 06:25:51< Tuggers> But allowing the wml file to be edited in a text editor might not be such a good idea
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20120109 06:27:12< Tuggers> I'd think you'd want to keep the spritesheet as something release-specific, and have the wml file only accessible by the spritesheet-generating tool
20120109 06:27:56< ancestral> Didn't http://irc.wesnoth.org/ used to resolve to the irc chat logs?
20120109 06:28:38< ancestral> (or to a page with irc links, I can't remember specifically)
20120109 06:28:42< Espreon> Well, we have irclogs.wesnoth.org
20120109 06:28:52< ancestral> Ah, hmm
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20120109 06:30:58< ancestral> Tuggers: relying on comments in pngs sounds like a bad idea
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20120109 06:33:27< Espreon> I don't like the idea either.
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20120109 08:57:22< Ivanovic> moin
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20120109 10:35:21< Ivanovic> crab_: okay, transportation to/from fosdem should be no problem
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20120109 12:49:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.9.14 aka 1.10-rc1, announcing "soon" | HARD string and feature-freeze active for trunk and the 1.10 announcment | 159 bugs, 332 feature requests, 14 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20120109 15:22:34< anonymissimus> Soliton: what does it exactly mean if a replay is OOS; and by a replay I mean a replay which is loaded and run on a single wesnoth instance, not the replay taking place on networked clients in multiplayer when currently inactive
20120109 15:23:31< anonymissimus> OOS means there's 2 states which are no longer the same though should be; what is the second state in comparison to the gamestate that exists after replaying until a certain point ?
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20120109 16:08:50< Soliton> anonymissimus: in practice OOS is detected when the game gets an impossible/invalid command. the conclusion then is that gamestates differ in some way. in case of a replay (live or not) the presumably differing states are that of the replay creator and the replay executor.
20120109 16:14:20< Soliton> Tuggers: (some) artists want spritesheets as an easier way to work on animations (i.e. many similar images neatly next to each other). another advantage is better compression (of an image with many similar parts). neither of those advantages are covered in your proposal.
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20120109 16:30:42< CIA-91> ivanovic * r52555 /website/start/1.10/ (8 files in 2 dirs): updated Lithuanian announcement translation
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20120109 17:17:39< CIA-91> ivanovic * r52556 /trunk/ (15 files in 14 dirs): updated Lithuanian translation
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20120109 20:08:27< lipk> sorry if it's a stupid question, but what the reason for the delay between the release and the announcement of a new version? is there any testing still in progress?
20120109 20:09:21< Ivanovic> lipk: there is some time for packagers to actually create packages
20120109 20:09:34< Ivanovic> and, uhm, you know, i need the time myself to post the announcement...
20120109 20:11:50< lipk> so i can start building the suse packages. in fact, i should :)
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20120109 20:11:58< Ivanovic> exactly
20120109 20:12:15< Ivanovic> that is why i normally mail the packagers directly after tagging/uploading the source tarball
20120109 20:14:54< Ivanovic> appearantly you are not on the list of people i mail, want me to add you?
20120109 20:16:35< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: are you ready regarding your forum "prune" announcement?
20120109 20:16:48< shadowmaster> it has been ready since last week
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20120109 20:26:18< lipk> Ivanovic: that'd be nice. I whisper you my email address.
20120109 20:26:27< Ivanovic> sure
20120109 20:27:14< Ivanovic> okay, added you in my list
20120109 20:27:38< lipk> thank you
20120109 20:29:12< shadowmaster> That is, the announcement is ready and I'm just waiting on yours in order to have the first link URL.
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20120109 20:38:53< Ivanovic> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=35849
20120109 20:38:56< Ivanovic> there you are!
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20120109 20:39:34< shadowmaster> k
20120109 20:42:41< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: okay, first mistake: you are still calling this 1.9.14 before 1.10 RC 1
20120109 20:42:58< shadowmaster> the topic title should refer to the 1.10 RC 1 name first in order to attract more attention
20120109 20:45:19< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: let me first do the frontpage (with 1.10-rc1 in front!)
20120109 20:46:12< Ivanovic> please refresh the frontpage
20120109 20:46:14< Ivanovic> is this better?
20120109 20:47:40< shadowmaster> yes!
20120109 20:47:54< Ivanovic> fixed the forum post, too
20120109 20:48:15< Ivanovic> at the frontpage please also have a look at the top where i don't mention it being 1.9.14
20120109 20:48:17< Ivanovic> ;)
20120109 20:49:49-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: HARD string and feature-freeze active for trunk and the 1.10 announcment | 159 bugs, 332 feature requests, 14 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120109 20:50:14< janebot> Wesnoth Forums | Developers’ Discussions • [STATUS] Forum/MP server login changes for Wesnoth 1.10 by shadowmaster [ 01-09-2012 19:40 ] [ http://r.wesnoth.org/p518036 ]
20120109 20:50:34< shadowmaster> why do you insist on using "beside" despite I have repeatedly corrected this in previous announcements?
20120109 20:51:10< lipk> "We are confident that we are really close to 1.8 now" ehm...
20120109 20:54:21< Ivanovic> "to what 1.8 should have beeen"?
20120109 20:54:22< Ivanovic> ;)
20120109 20:54:38< shadowmaster> in fact, it seems like you have not been copypasting these posts from the previous development release's announcement, but from something older than that
20120109 20:55:04< Ivanovic> this one was mainly copy&pasted from previous dev releases minus the first 3 sentences which were from the 1.8-rc1
20120109 20:55:23< shadowmaster> ah, no wonder, then.
20120109 20:58:23< shadowmaster> well, I don't think there's a need for a separate frontpage post for the forum status update then
20120109 20:59:06< Ivanovic> you could add this in the 1.10rc1 news entry though
20120109 20:59:49< lipk> you should release some rcs for announcements too
20120109 21:00:22< Ivanovic> lipk: the 1.10 announcement is in rc state for a while already...
20120109 21:02:03< shadowmaster> Soliton: could you either link to the 1.10 RC 1 announcement in the 1.8 (and 1.10?) server MoTDs as http://r.wesnoth.org/t35849  or perhaps create a new subdomain redirect/just link to the front page?
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20120109 21:02:32< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: on it
20120109 21:03:56< Ivanovic> lipk: cf this page: http://www.wesnoth.org/start/1.10/
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20120109 21:04:53< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: will you also comment out the frogatto logo for the time being?
20120109 21:05:18< Ivanovic> since i don't think that we should distract from wesnoth while shortly before or just after the start of a new stable series
20120109 21:05:20< Ivanovic> ;)
20120109 21:06:38< vultraz> Ivanovic: so that's how the announcement will look?
20120109 21:07:28< Ivanovic> vultraz: yes
20120109 21:07:48< vultraz> looks nice :D
20120109 21:08:02< vultraz> especially w/o the Frogatto thingy
20120109 21:08:05< Ivanovic> looked really similar for every start of a new stable series
20120109 21:08:35< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: okay, updated
20120109 21:08:37< shadowmaster> refresh the frontpage
20120109 21:08:41< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: looks fine!
20120109 21:08:43< Ivanovic> thanks
20120109 21:09:29< lipk> Ivanovic: that's really nice, but what I meant is that there's still the wrong version number just in the first line of the forum announcement :)
20120109 21:10:05< shadowmaster> let me revise that along with other things
20120109 21:10:08< Ivanovic> lipk: can't be!
20120109 21:12:39< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: the 1.9.x server is still going to be the 1.10 server, right?
20120109 21:12:46< shadowmaster> I mean the campaignd
20120109 21:12:49< Ivanovic> yes
20120109 21:13:45< boucman> wesbot: seen Crab_
20120109 21:13:45< wesbot> boucman: Person, who 2d 1h ago used nick Crab_, last spoke 1d 23h ago.  1d 1h ago as Crab___ they left with the message: Client Quit
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20120109 21:16:07< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: since it's really *not* good to be editing these posts after they have already become public, how about the next time you post in the hidden forum as soon as the new version is tagged in SVN to give me time to edit the announcement proper?
20120109 21:16:21< shadowmaster> links and such can be fixed as packages are uploaded, or at the very last minute before publishing
20120109 21:16:32< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: sounds like a nice solution
20120109 21:16:48< shadowmaster> and preferably we should make this standard practice 
20120109 21:16:55< Ivanovic> jepp
20120109 21:17:41< shadowmaster> s/ me/ us/
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20120109 22:14:27< Tuggers> soliton: if you want better compression of similar images, you can put them into one archive (preferably as bitmaps) and then compress the whole archive
20120109 22:15:41< Tuggers> same concept, less work spent mucking around with placing images on spritesheets, de-spritesheeting images, storing the position/dimensions of images in a separate file, etc
20120109 22:17:24< Tuggers> if you really want good compression you could use .7z with LZMA2 or .tar.xz, both of which would conceivably have better compression ratios than the DEFLATE-based .png
20120109 22:19:48< zookeeper> but more work mucking around with archives.
20120109 22:19:54< zookeeper> can't diff changed images, etc.
20120109 22:20:06< Soliton> you're going past the point of my argument. take a look at how spritesheets are done in frogatto.
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20120109 22:22:58< Tuggers> <Soliton>: another advantage is better compression (of an image with many similar parts).
20120109 22:23:51< Tuggers> How did I go past the point of that argument?
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20120109 22:24:49< Soliton> you're acting like that is the point of spritesheets.
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20120109 22:27:12< Soliton> shadowmaster: the motd is already pointing to wesnoth.org, please suggest what other wording you'd like.
20120109 22:27:48< Tuggers> The project page said they were desired for better compression and faster hard disk access
20120109 22:27:55< Tuggers> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas#Allow_wesnoth_to_support_spritesheets
20120109 22:28:07< Tuggers> "The advantage of having a large image with all positions is that it's more efficient in memory. Also one large file is more effecient on the harddisk and faster to load than a lot of smaller files. So the change to spritesheets will have a lot of advantages. "
20120109 22:35:32< anonymissimus> shadowmaster: nice job, tricking/convincing users into updating xD
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20120109 23:33:56< shadowmaster> Soliton: looks good
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 10 00:00:09 2012