--- Log opened Wed Jan 25 00:00:03 2012
--- Day changed Wed Jan 25 2012
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20120125 00:31:34< fendrin> Hello
20120125 00:32:32< Espreon> Hello.
20120125 00:32:40< fendrin> I have a feature request from a friend. He told me a button in the title screen to load the last save would be handy.
20120125 00:33:06< fendrin> Since this is almost everything what he wants when playing a campaign in a row.
20120125 00:33:36< fendrin> I thought about it and came up with a better idea.
20120125 00:33:57< cjhopman> A "Continue" button is pretty common on titlescreens these days
20120125 00:34:30< fendrin> Yes, but it does only save one click.
20120125 00:35:19< fendrin> Load Game, one click. The last save is chosen per default. Another click on okay.
20120125 00:35:40< cjhopman> yeah, but it also saves a sort of mental context switch
20120125 00:35:56< Aethaeryn> Is it possible to have Lua/WML set what the next scenario is going to be?
20120125 00:36:09< Aethaeryn> I want the host to be able to choose which map to start on.
20120125 00:36:52< Espreon> fendrin: Well, if such a button were to be implemented, it'd be best for there to be some way of telling what the last save was.
20120125 00:37:04< fendrin> I think a better solution for the problem is another commandline option --last-save which does the job. The packagers for the several platforms would then add an extra icon for the option.
20120125 00:38:16< fendrin> This will even bring up the scenario quite fast.
20120125 00:38:50< cjhopman> yeah, the not having to reload the wml would be nice
20120125 00:39:25< Aethaeryn> It'd be nice to have a quickstart for multiplayer as well.
20120125 00:39:29< fendrin> I think that is very easy to implement, if there is no objection against it I can start the project immediately.
20120125 00:39:47< Aethaeryn> Perhaps it already exists, a way to enter immediately into hosting a certain scenario on the MP lobby.
20120125 00:40:02< Aethaeryn> So if I only play Isar's Cross, I can just wesnoth --mp-start isars
20120125 00:40:04< Aethaeryn> or soemething
20120125 00:40:06< Aethaeryn> *something
20120125 00:40:15< Aethaeryn> Basically the MP version of this feature.
20120125 00:40:18< fendrin> Aethaeryn: I can have a look at that as well.
20120125 00:40:41< cjhopman> which makes me wonder if you could actually load up the last save, but still show the titlescreen. Such that a "Continue" button would be fast...
20120125 00:41:25< Aethaeryn> I would love to be able to just jump immediately into testing one of my maps since I only ever play MP to test my maps
20120125 00:41:57 * Espreon agrees
20120125 00:42:27< Aethaeryn> Load Wesnoth -> Load MP -> Create Game -> Find My Scenario
20120125 00:42:30< Aethaeryn> That takes a few minutes.
20120125 00:42:30< fendrin> Aethaeryn: Please fill a feature request for your idea against me.
20120125 00:42:49< Aethaeryn> It doesn't exist yet, does it?
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20120125 00:43:01< Aethaeryn> I think there's already a way to quickly get into a scenario for AI testing, and a quick lobby load
20120125 00:43:02< fendrin> Aethaeryn: Not sure, please determine that.
20120125 00:43:15< Aethaeryn> ok
20120125 00:43:42< fendrin> Aethaeryn: Just write what you already find as useful feature for solving the problem in the feature request, please.
20120125 00:44:43< cjhopman> you can start into an mp scenario... not sure about straight to lobby though
20120125 00:45:39< Aethaeryn> http://linux.die.net/man/6/wesnoth
20120125 00:45:43< Aethaeryn> This seems to be mostly for AI testing.
20120125 00:45:56< Aethaeryn> I don't think it takes you into an actual MP server, but it should just be one more step if you have a name/pw saved
20120125 00:47:27< Aethaeryn> just a sec
20120125 00:47:31< Aethaeryn> I lost my gna password
20120125 00:47:35< Aethaeryn> I have to boot up my old machine
20120125 00:49:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: tagged 1.10.0, announcing on January 29th | HARD string and feature-freeze active for trunk and the 1.10 announcment | 151 bugs, 335 feature requests, 17 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120125 00:49:57< Aethaeryn> wesnoth --multiplayer isn't working for me
20120125 01:01:06< anonymissimus> there already is or are command line options to directly load a save
20120125 01:01:27< anonymissimus> he would need to specify the save name however
20120125 01:02:04< anonymissimus> similar for directly starting a certain sp or mp scenario, just run wesnoth --help
20120125 01:06:46< fendrin> anonymissimus: Yeah, that is why I think that coding the option if more or less trivial, at least for SP.
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20120125 01:24:54< Aethaeryn> There are some things on the add-on server that haven't been touched since mid 2010
20120125 01:25:43< Aethaeryn> The one currently accessible in 1.9.14
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20120125 01:30:23< Gambit> Mhm.
20120125 01:30:30< Gambit> But a cleaning is not on the schedule.
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20120125 01:34:48< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Which is kinda bad, since people will see all sorts of broken stuff
20120125 01:34:50< Aethaeryn> and testing stuff
20120125 01:35:07< Gambit> [19:34:42] <Gambit> You really should have a skeleton scenario for every map
20120125 01:35:07< Gambit> [19:34:49] <Gambit> And then all the general code should be in an era
20120125 01:35:11< Aethaeryn> I think the reason there's no cleaning is because people were expecting the addon GUI to be rewritten to avoid the whole "whoever gets there first shapes the impression of the game"
20120125 01:35:25< Gambit> Oh wrong conversation.
20120125 01:35:30< Gambit> Bah stop switching channels on me
20120125 01:35:32< Aethaeryn> yeah
20120125 01:35:39< Aethaeryn> Well, I was responding to your point in here
20120125 01:35:40< Aethaeryn> in here
20120125 01:35:43< Aethaeryn> and your points in there in there
20120125 01:36:01< Gambit> [19:34:34] <Aethaeryn> hmm, I should ask in -dev
20120125 01:36:10< Aethaeryn> I should
20120125 01:37:13< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Can't I just move out all the definition except map_data into its own .cfg macro file?
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20120125 01:46:29< fendrin> It works!
20120125 01:47:00< fendrin> Ivanovic: Can I commit it for inclusion in 1.10.1?
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20120125 01:56:46< anonymissimus> fendrin: no feature commtis allowed atm
20120125 01:57:25< anonymissimus> make a branch and keep it local xD
20120125 01:58:18< anonymissimus> perhaps this finally makes you install git now
20120125 01:59:11< anonymissimus> you could transfer the changes with a patch (and a bit of modification, since svn and git patches aren't quite compatible)
20120125 01:59:43< anonymissimus> but almost, one needs to add these a/ and b/ stuff then it should work IIRC
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20120125 02:09:24< fendrin> anonymissimus: What do you mean? That it can't go in for 1.10.1 at all or that it can't go in just right now?
20120125 02:09:35< anonymissimus> the ladder
20120125 02:09:40< fendrin> okay
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20120125 02:13:07< anonymissimus> Crab____: or is there anybody else familiar with the event handler system; why are new handlers (from nested action tags [event]) only made active after the current event call stack has run out ?
20120125 02:14:10< anonymissimus> since I can't really imagine why this buffering is made; it seems to complicate the code, and I also just noticed that it's possible to circumvent it by executing wml action code via the lua command line
20120125 02:15:19< anonymissimus> as usually, I assume there's some good reason which I don't grasp...
20120125 02:19:27< Aethaeryn> Error while playing the game: game_error: creating unit with an empty type field.
20120125 02:19:32< Aethaeryn> ^ When I try to make an MP campaign.
20120125 02:19:51< Aethaeryn> I don't want to have to define their type because they should be able to choose their units
20120125 02:20:38< Aethaeryn> oh, use an id
20120125 02:21:41< Aethaeryn> Nope, still have the problem.
20120125 02:22:17< Aethaeryn> Does anyone know what might be going wrong here?
20120125 02:23:46< Aethaeryn> persistent=yes?
20120125 02:24:28< Aethaeryn> again, doesn't fix it
20120125 02:29:30< Bob_The_Mighty> Aethaeryn: i think i have seen that errors where i was using a variable for the type= when placing a unit
20120125 02:29:49< Aethaeryn> so I just need a dummy type= on the later scenarios apparently
20120125 02:32:20< Aethaeryn> got it
20120125 02:32:35< Aethaeryn> wow that is odd, to define a false type just to have something there
20120125 02:32:38< Aethaeryn> Imo, that's buggy.
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20120125 02:47:20< Aethaeryn> Bob_The_Mighty: If you want to see my RPG you can. It's almost finished, I did a complete rewrite, made it an MP campaign, etc.
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20120125 02:47:33< Bob_The_Mighty> cool, what is it called?
20120125 02:47:35< Aethaeryn> I haven't added compatability to other eras yet, though. 
20120125 02:47:40< Aethaeryn> Master of Dungeons, it's not published yet
20120125 02:48:05< Aethaeryn> I'm going to have a default inventory/story/amla system, but once I do the era compatability code I should be able to turn those off if the era conflicts with those.
20120125 02:48:11< Aethaeryn> *inventory/store/amla
20120125 02:48:59< Aethaeryn> Bob_The_Mighty: It's the one where the host places units and draws the maps, but I made it a lot more powerful, and added some predrawn maps since it takes me about 45 minutes to do them.
20120125 02:49:42< Aethaeryn> I was doing it on 1.8 about a year ago, but had to stop because no one was on 1.9 to playtest the Lua rewrite.
20120125 02:50:46< Aethaeryn> Bob_The_Mighty: It's basically a tabletop RPG with a dungeon master who determines the story, and who faces what, and even now what maps to use. It's literally endless if everyone wants to keep playing new scenarios... I'm about 82% done.
20120125 02:51:20< Aethaeryn> The problem is that documenting how to play it would be a project in itself.
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20120125 05:30:28< CIA-59> shadowmaster * r52766 /trunk/ (changelog src/game_display.cpp): Do not require restarting Wesnoth to disable or enable desktop notifications (noted by un214 on IRC)
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--- Log opened Wed Jan 25 07:42:12 2012
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20120125 07:42:25-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: tagged 1.10.0, announcing on January 29th | HARD string and feature-freeze active for trunk and the 1.10 announcment | 151 bugs, 335 feature requests, 17 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120125 07:42:25-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@asteria.debian.or.at] [Wed Jan 25 00:49:48 2012]
20120125 07:42:25[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20120125 07:42:25[ Aethaeryn      ] [ csarmi    ] [ iwaim       ] [ Samual        ] 
20120125 07:42:25[ AI0867         ] [ ejls      ] [ janebot     ] [ shadowm       ] 
20120125 07:42:25[ Amuchan        ] [ elias     ] [ knotwork    ] [ shadowm_laptop] 
20120125 07:42:25[ apoi           ] [ enchilado ] [ koan        ] [ shikadibot    ] 
20120125 07:42:25[ atomicbomb     ] [ erl       ] [ lobby       ] [ Smar          ] 
20120125 07:42:25[ Blueblaze      ] [ Espreon   ] [ loonycyborg ] [ Tigge         ] 
20120125 07:42:25[ chpln          ] [ fendrin   ] [ LordNasty   ] [ Upthorn       ] 
20120125 07:42:25[ chrisoelmueller] [ fstltna   ] [ matthiaskrgr] [ vcap          ] 
20120125 07:42:25[ CIA-59         ] [ gabba     ] [ melinath    ] [ wesbot        ] 
20120125 07:42:25[ cjhopman       ] [ happygrue_] [ noy         ] [ yann          ] 
20120125 07:42:25[ Crab____       ] [ Ingmar    ] [ pbunbun     ] 
20120125 07:42:25[ crimson_penguin] [ Ivanovic  ] [ Rhonda      ] 
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20120125 07:42:45-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
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20120125 08:25:29< vultraz> wesbot: seen Alarantalara
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20120125 10:18:55< Ivanovic> moin
20120125 10:20:07< vultraz> hey
20120125 10:23:11< Ivanovic> fendrin: what is your patch about?
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20120125 10:35:49< CIA-59> ivanovic * r52767 /website/start/1.10/ (18 files in 2 dirs): updated Hungarian and Italian announcement translation
20120125 10:37:01< CIA-59> ivanovic * r52768 /trunk/po/wesnoth-units/it.po: updated Italian translation
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20120125 11:30:55< Crab____> Ivanovic: thanks
20120125 11:32:14< Crab____> Aethaeryn: you're getting errors about type= being required on leaders defined inside [side] in subsequent mp scenarios, where leaders are supposed to be recalled?
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20120125 13:45:20< jo-erlend> In Legend of Wesmere, there is a scenario called "The Northern Battle". Cleodil is supposed to be there, but she isn't. :/
20120125 13:46:36< jo-erlend> I get this error: <invalid wml found> [store_unit], [if], [clear_variable] (not supported at scenario top level)
20120125 13:47:24< jo-erlend> Version: 1:1.9.13-1~ppa1 in Ubuntu Precise (12.04) 
20120125 13:47:56< jo-erlend> I haven't the foggiest idea what that really means or how to fix it, but I played really well in the previous scenario so I would like to finish it! :)
20120125 13:48:17< jo-erlend> is there a public bug tracker where I can file a report about this? 
20120125 13:48:32< jo-erlend> ... and; is there a chance it can be fixed soon? :)
20120125 13:48:53< Crab____> jo-erlend: hi
20120125 13:48:57< Crab____> jo-erlend: https://gna.org/bugs/?func=additem&group=wesnoth
20120125 13:48:59< jo-erlend> hi Crab____
20120125 13:49:22< jo-erlend> thanks. 
20120125 13:49:49< Crab____> jo-erlend: it should be quick to fix, however, it will most likely end up only in 1.10.1 (see topic message, 1.10 is already being prepared for release)
20120125 13:49:50< jo-erlend> what "item group" should I use for that bug?
20120125 13:49:59< Crab____> 'campaign' seems reasonable
20120125 13:50:34< Crab____> and thanks for reporting
20120125 13:50:53< jo-erlend> hehe, yes, it's real altruism :)
20120125 13:53:48< jo-erlend> what is the name of the thing in the middle of a camp where your hero must be in order to recruit?
20120125 13:53:58< jo-erlend> (I use a translated version)
20120125 13:54:02< jo-erlend> camp?
20120125 13:54:10< Crab____> 'keep'
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20120125 13:54:32< Ivanovic> jo-erlend, Crab____: this might already have been fixed in 1.9.14
20120125 13:54:40< Ivanovic> not to mention 1.10
20120125 13:54:46< Ivanovic> you should ask fendrin once he is back
20120125 13:55:08< jo-erlend> oh, that would be great. 
20120125 13:55:23< jo-erlend> do you know when I can expect the new version to become available in the ppa?
20120125 13:55:49< Ivanovic> could it be this bug? https://gna.org/bugs/?19236
20120125 13:56:20< jo-erlend> Ivanovic, great. Yes, that's it. 
20120125 13:58:37< Ivanovic> so it should be fine once you got the update to 1.10.0
20120125 13:59:12< jo-erlend> oh? 
20120125 13:59:56< Ivanovic> yes, this fix was part of the fixed between 1.9.14 and 1.10.0
20120125 14:01:04< CIA-59> ivanovic * r52769 /website/start/1.10/ (68 files in 2 dirs): 
20120125 14:01:04< CIA-59> updated the order in the table of contents (fixed bug #19326)
20120125 14:01:04< CIA-59> no new/changed strings because of this, it is only a change or order
20120125 14:03:31< jo-erlend> ah. The comments are upside down :)
20120125 14:04:41< jo-erlend> ok. Will I be able to finish my campaign when 1.10.0 is released? When can I expect that to be pushed into the ppa? 
20120125 14:05:02< Ivanovic> yes, you will be able to finish it in 1.10.0 though you might have to manually copy over your savegames
20120125 14:05:16< Ivanovic> when it will be in the ppa: no idea, i just know that it already is in debian unstable
20120125 14:05:30< jo-erlend> oh
20120125 14:05:33< jo-erlend> that's great news. 
20120125 14:05:50< jo-erlend> Rhonda, it's your ppa? 
20120125 14:05:52< Ivanovic> and a sync request to the ububtu folks was sent by Rhonda (the debian packager), too
20120125 14:06:27< jo-erlend> right. 
20120125 14:06:28< Ivanovic> sync request for Ubuntu precise that is
20120125 14:06:43< jo-erlend> yes, that's what I'm using.
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20120125 14:39:11< CIA-59> ivanovic * r52770 /website/start/1.10/ (index.de.html po/de.po po/wesnoth-start-1.10.pot): updated German announcement translation
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20120125 17:08:09< Rhonda> …
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20120125 17:30:16< Aethaeryn> Crab____: yes
20120125 17:30:32< Aethaeryn> which is a known issue according to http://wiki.wesnoth.org/MultiplayerCampaigns
20120125 17:33:59< Aethaeryn> It seems to me like a bug, that you can have people choose a leader in the first scenario, and then set type=Peasant just to never see a Peasant.
20120125 17:34:12< Aethaeryn> To have a field that literally does nothing.
20120125 17:34:30< Crab____> it's a definite bug
20120125 17:34:46< Aethaeryn> The laziest workaround with something like WML would be to automatically assume "type=Peasant" in [side] on later scenarios if type isn't given and it's supposed to be recalled.
20120125 17:34:56< Crab____> I'll take a look at it.
20120125 17:35:04< Aethaeryn> Basically the same thing as here but without having to define it yourself.
20120125 17:35:05< Crab____> it should not care about that type= at all.
20120125 17:35:12< Aethaeryn> Right.
20120125 17:35:23< Crab____> (if it would replace by id, the type= doesn't matter)
20120125 17:37:54< Crab____> ok, checked the code, I see the most likely place where it happens, and I will fix this
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20120125 17:46:47< Aethaeryn> I think there's also an OOS bug for observers when the MP campaign goes to a new scenario and an observer takes over a side.
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20120125 17:47:08< Aethaeryn> I will have to narrow this down but I couldn't think of any other cause of the OOS last game but the fact that the person who had it started as an observer
20120125 17:54:31< Aethaeryn> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=11349 <- the OOS one is known
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20120125 18:08:31< Aethaeryn> Crab____: I think the problem is that there just aren't too many MP campaigns so all these old 1.3 bugs are forgotten or ignored
20120125 18:09:21< Aethaeryn> The add-on server has 9 and I bet half don't work or are incomplete.
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20120125 18:15:32< anonymissimus> Aethaeryn: , Crab____ : as far as I'm concerned, mp campaigns are unsupported, since there's a ton ob problems with them
20120125 18:16:01< anonymissimus> the stuff which gets reported is just what the people don't find workarounds for
20120125 18:16:34< Aethaeryn> anonymissimus: An MP campaign is the best solution for an endless RPG as far as I'm concerned.
20120125 18:16:48< anonymissimus> (and we don't have an mp campaign in mainline to find and fix stuff)
20120125 18:17:13< anonymissimus> my advice is to not create Mp campaigns, since they are too buggy
20120125 18:18:05< anonymissimus> until zaroth's project is done and LoW is in the according syntax, so that stuff can be fixed
20120125 18:18:05< Aethaeryn> Too buggy?
20120125 18:18:09< anonymissimus> sure
20120125 18:18:32< anonymissimus> too buggy due to engine bugs
20120125 18:18:42< Aethaeryn> I'm used to working around engine bugs.
20120125 18:19:01< anonymissimus> of course, thats why many mp campaigns work so-so
20120125 18:19:28< Aethaeryn> I have 350 lines of Lua that create object-like tables just to work around terrible gaps in the Lua-Wesnoth API that basically forces me to write WML "tables" for things best done in Lua.
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20120125 18:19:58< Aethaeryn> I'm used to working around crappy engine support since what I'm doing is kinda not what people built Wesnoth for.
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20120125 18:20:46< anonymissimus> "terrible gaps in the lua api" ? non existent features you certainly mean
20120125 18:21:31< Aethaeryn> Wesnoth's game engine -> (often) Lua -> WML tag -> WML table -> Lua
20120125 18:21:46< Aethaeryn> I'd call that a terrible way to handle things.
20120125 18:22:18< anonymissimus> and you don't need to write tables in lua, you can write then in wml and use set_variables and get_variable to transform them into a wml table
20120125 18:22:36< Aethaeryn> That's missing the point.
20120125 18:22:51< anonymissimus> I imagine that can useful for lua dialogs
20120125 18:22:54< Aethaeryn> The point is that WML is not a programming language. It's best kept to things like [side]
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20120125 18:24:51< Aethaeryn> I don't see why I have to call as WML-in-Lua things that are often written in Lua anyway. I mean, sure I could just copy and paste the Lua code, but that's a terrible way to stay in sync with upstream.
20120125 18:25:25< Aethaeryn> And yeah, you can just "stick to WML" and work with global variables and stuff, but that's a terrible way to write thousands of lines of a fairly complex program.
20120125 18:28:17< anonymissimus> fendrin, fabi: here you can see the most extreme position regarding backwards compatibility^^: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=519243#p519243
20120125 18:28:38< anonymissimus> that guy is much stricter than me :)
20120125 18:32:08< Aethaeryn> anonymissimus: What do you mean that it's not the responsibility of the developers to automatically update all add-ons on the server?
20120125 18:33:11< Aethaeryn> There's only a few hundred on the 1.9 add-on server right now they'd have to update, right? It wouldn't be that much harder than just maintaining mainline.
20120125 18:34:04< anonymissimus> Aethaeryn: you don't seem to understand
20120125 18:34:18< anonymissimus> go contributing to the wesnoth engine itsself
20120125 18:34:21< Aethaeryn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
20120125 18:35:00< Aethaeryn> It's hard enough updating three to five add-ons during dev versions every few months. It'd be terrible with hundreds.
20120125 18:35:12< anonymissimus> make patches that provide the functionality you intend and that work and are stable, then you work with a farily complex program, an addon does never count as such for me
20120125 18:35:24< Aethaeryn> I thought I was being absurd enough.
20120125 18:35:25< zookeeper> i can't blame anyone for being annoyed of every single stable version being backwards incompatible.
20120125 18:35:52< anonymissimus> it would be much harder and much more work to do what that guy suggest
20120125 18:35:52< zookeeper> s/version/branch
20120125 18:36:38< anonymissimus> design your addons in a way they're easier to upgrade
20120125 18:37:04< anonymissimus> write maintenance scripts for your own pleasure
20120125 18:37:05< Aethaeryn> anonymissimus: My most recent add-on is more than 2000 lines of Lua, it isn't just a toy
20120125 18:37:13< Aethaeryn> It's almost as much lines as my stand-alone game right now.
20120125 18:37:22< Aethaeryn> That's about 3.5k currently.
20120125 18:38:48< zookeeper> one project i do some light work on maintains backwards compatibility with original commercial retail data which is from '99.
20120125 18:39:21< anonymissimus> SoW's main lua file has ~1500 lines of lua
20120125 18:39:26< zookeeper> and the engine has had like a zillion features added
20120125 18:40:54< anonymissimus> together with the other files its certainly 2000+, and that is not juts a lot of lua dialog tables, no no
20120125 18:41:01< Aethaeryn> Okay, cool.
20120125 18:41:14< anonymissimus> but its absolutely nothing in comparison to the wesnoth code base
20120125 18:41:19< Aethaeryn> I know.
20120125 18:41:33< Aethaeryn> Counting all the .cfg, .lua, .c, etc. files there's more than 100k lines of code.
20120125 18:41:45< anonymissimus> it is sensible to require contributors to do work themselves as well
20120125 18:41:58< Aethaeryn> anonymissimus: Yes. It is.
20120125 18:42:12< Aethaeryn> It would be insane to have developers essentially maintain all add-ons on the add-on server.
20120125 18:42:34< anonymissimus> and due to the syntax changes thread, wmllint and wmlscope it is really easy to update addons
20120125 18:42:50< anonymissimus> together with a few mass-replacings you're done
20120125 18:42:59< Aethaeryn> Oh, yes, it's easy to update most add-ons.
20120125 18:43:19< Aethaeryn> MoD has a tiny, tiny amount of actual WML
20120125 18:43:55< anonymissimus> of course, if you don't follow the dev version, and don't use wmllint, wmlscope and mass-replacings like most addon authors then the amount of work eplodes
20120125 18:43:55< Aethaeryn> The One True Way (TM) to do things in Wesnoth doesn't scale well to the kind of total gameplay conversions I do.
20120125 18:45:44< anonymissimus> (one thing I would like to see is a syntax lifter/checker for lua though, such as wmllint is for wml)
20120125 18:45:47< Aethaeryn> There are ugly workarounds I had to do, e.g. I have to make my Lua files macros in order to not require downloads of my add-on.
20120125 18:46:08< anonymissimus> but there are little backwards-compat breaking changes in the lua api so far
20120125 18:46:30< Aethaeryn> so every file begins with "#define SOME_NAME\n<<" and ends with ">>\n#enddef\n" and are placed in [lua] code = {SOME_NAME} [/lua]
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20120125 18:47:21< anonymissimus> I have a script for that purpose which adds << >> to pure lua files so I cna embed them :)
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20120125 18:48:55< Aethaeryn> I don't see, though, why you can make sweeping statements dismissing add-ons as trivial, though, and not see them as statements as absurd as me saying to just automatically update them all as devs or whatever. It isn't 50,000 lines of cpp, but that isn't really the point.
20120125 18:49:21< Aethaeryn> It's hard to maintain in different ways. The bugs and features I depend on to workaround engine ugliness could disappear tomororw.
20120125 18:49:24< Aethaeryn> *tomorrow
20120125 18:49:38< Aethaeryn> And coding doesn't have to be painful to be worth it.
20120125 18:49:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: tagged 1.10.0, announcing on January 29th | HARD string and feature-freeze active for trunk and the 1.10 announcment | 150 bugs, 335 feature requests, 17 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120125 18:50:05< anonymissimus> then provide patches that do what you want. period
20120125 18:50:27< Aethaeryn> If it's in Lua, then sure.
20120125 18:50:59< Aethaeryn> But I do Wesnoth purely on my own time for fun. I'm not reverse-engineering 3000 line C++ files that have such informative variable names as "a" and "m"
20120125 18:51:29< Aethaeryn> That isn't my idea of how to spend my spare, unpaid time.
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20120125 19:22:41< mordante> servus
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20120125 19:45:04< Ivanovic> boucman: have you already made your travel arrangements for fosdem?
20120125 19:45:51< boucman> yes, hotel and everything, but I won't be at 2go4
20120125 19:45:57< Ivanovic> okay
20120125 19:46:05< boucman> my dad is also giving a talk, so we'll share a car from paris
20120125 19:46:33< Ivanovic> will you already be around for the friday evening at  "Santorini"?
20120125 19:52:14< fendrin> hello
20120125 19:59:59-!- gabba [~gabba@wesnoth/developer/gabba] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120125 20:03:49< anonymissimus> Aethaeryn: oha, I just managed to get this hp-bar see through shroud bug^^
20120125 20:06:28< anonymissimus> but that unit's side's definition is share_vies=yes and share_maps=yes so doesnt count
20120125 20:06:50-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20120125 20:07:54< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: So 1.10 is really done, eh?
20120125 20:08:00< Ivanovic> jepp
20120125 20:08:15< Ivanovic> and so far there seem to be no "really big" issues preventing the announcement
20120125 20:08:16< crimson_penguin> So if somehow I found the time to get it on the Mac App Store in the next few days, that would be good...
20120125 20:08:21< crimson_penguin> but it's unlikely :-/
20120125 20:08:43< vultraz> crimson_penguin: have you gotten Wesnoth compiles via Xcode on Lion?
20120125 20:08:48< vultraz> compiled*
20120125 20:08:50< gabba> I read above that we don't have an mp campaign in mainline and that they supposedly don't work too well yet anyways, and I'm disappointed.
20120125 20:09:00< crimson_penguin> vultraz: I haven't tried; is there a problem?
20120125 20:09:02< gabba> This was the main thing I wanted to use the whiteboard for myself
20120125 20:09:19< vultraz> crimson_penguin: this:  http://pastebin.com/YGZZGKNe
20120125 20:09:31< vultraz> err
20120125 20:09:35< vultraz> wrong one
20120125 20:09:45< vultraz> crimson_penguin: http://pastebin.com/LFdRHtN5
20120125 20:09:48< vultraz> that
20120125 20:10:01< vultraz> happens right before title screen appears
20120125 20:10:25< crimson_penguin> so wait, you're saying it doesn't even run on Lion? interesting
20120125 20:10:58< vultraz> it compiles, but yeah, won't run. the releases work, though
20120125 20:11:10< crimson_penguin> oh, hmm
20120125 20:11:10< vultraz> BTW I CAN get into the editor....
20120125 20:11:14< vultraz> somehow..
20120125 20:11:33< vultraz> ./wesnoth -debug get's me the editor (yeah I know it's --debug)
20120125 20:11:37< vultraz> gets*
20120125 20:11:40< crimson_penguin> well, ONE DAY I'll get around to actually updating all those libraries, and putting it on the App Store
20120125 20:11:41< Ivanovic> gabba: lets just wait for the amount of bug reports we get with the whiteboard
20120125 20:11:59< Ivanovic> gabba: and for 1.12 lets possibly work further on getting mp campaign support on par with the rest
20120125 20:12:08< shadowm> vultraz: -de is actually -d -e
20120125 20:12:12< shadowm> -e is the shorthand for --editor
20120125 20:12:13< gabba> Ivanovic: oh, I'm sure there will be many
20120125 20:12:57< gabba> Ivanovic: it's just that the main use case I tried 2+ years ago isn't ready yet, so me = sad 
20120125 20:13:31 * Ivanovic remembers that we talked about some MP interface stuff last fosdem
20120125 20:13:36< gabba> I guess some simple mp campaigns still work at least as well as in 1.6/1.8
20120125 20:13:37< Ivanovic> with fendrin that is
20120125 20:13:51< Ivanovic> it is unlikely to have gotten (significantly) worse
20120125 20:14:31< anonymissimus> gabba: I dunno, I have an own MP test campaign which at least works a bit
20120125 20:15:05< vultraz> shadowm ahhh thanks 
20120125 20:15:25< vultraz> crimson_penguin: so...what do you suggest 
20120125 20:15:39< anonymissimus> there's just the basic problem that whenever I attempt to debug some MP camp stuff all testcases are unusable due to poor wml or non-tracked down ways to reproduce
20120125 20:15:58< shadowm> crimson_penguin: why "ONE DAY" and not "immediately"?
20120125 20:16:07< gabba> anonymissimus: ok
20120125 20:16:25< fendrin> Ivanovic: It led to an google summer of code project that sadly failed.
20120125 20:16:27< Ivanovic> shadowm: my guess is because getting it work for the mac is hell
20120125 20:16:32< Ivanovic> fendrin: yeah
20120125 20:16:43< crimson_penguin> shadowm: because I have a full time job programming, and then when I get home I usually don't really feel like doing more computer work
20120125 20:16:50< crimson_penguin> plus often I go out and do other stuff
20120125 20:16:52< anonymissimus> fendrin: it didnt fail
20120125 20:16:53< fendrin> Ivanovic: Which led to the removal of LoW MP which is even more sad.
20120125 20:16:56< Ivanovic> shadowm: the problem there is that the different versions of OSX *can* have significant difference and be very incompatible
20120125 20:17:05< crimson_penguin> vultraz: I can't really suggest anything, I just have to look at it at some point
20120125 20:17:09< Ivanovic> shadowm: plus the two architecture, x86 as well as ppc for older OSX versions
20120125 20:17:11< anonymissimus> it was a very good one, it was the developer who no longer had time for it
20120125 20:17:19< fendrin> anonymissimus: Not? Why did I remove LoW MP then?
20120125 20:17:26< shadowm> Ivanovic: yes yes
20120125 20:17:30< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: if I package Wesnoth again, I won't support PPC; it's basically infeasible at this point
20120125 20:17:44< shadowm> Jetrel would probably kill you for that.
20120125 20:17:47< fendrin> anonymissimus: Not finished project is failed. 
20120125 20:17:59< anonymissimus> AFAIK you removed it because it was a bad hack from the beginning ?
20120125 20:18:08< crimson_penguin> shadowm: he can compile it himself, so it's probably okay
20120125 20:18:22< crimson_penguin> anyway, I can package it for the App Store at least, which doesn't allow PPC anyway
20120125 20:19:00< crimson_penguin> PPC hasn't been supported since 10.5 (we're on 10.7 now), and Xcode 4 removed support for compiling for it
20120125 20:19:13< crimson_penguin> (the first x86 Macs were released in 2006 btw)
20120125 20:19:40< crimson_penguin> it is a quick transition, but... can't really do a lot about it - I'm not gonna install earlier Xcode versions to try to wrangle things together
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20120125 20:19:53< shadowm> It'd be nice to know how many people use Wesnoth and can't afford the upgrade.
20120125 20:20:00< crimson_penguin> supporting PPC was already a pretty big hassle with all the libraries
20120125 20:20:21< crimson_penguin> shadowm: most of them wouldn't use Macs in the first place :P
20120125 20:20:23< fendrin> anonymissimus: hmmm, the campaign itself wasn't hacked, only the support for several difficult levels in MP.
20120125 20:21:27< shadowm> crimson_penguin: people can lose their jobs
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20120125 20:23:07< vultraz> crimson_penguin: so is there any way I can get it compiled in the meantime? 
20120125 20:23:54< crimson_penguin> shadowm: are you threatening me? :P
20120125 20:24:04< shadowm> no :p
20120125 20:24:40< crimson_penguin> vultraz: I don't know, you could try changing the SDK and compiler; that should be the main difference between compiling on different OSs
20120125 20:24:44< shadowm> although I admit the concept of a broke Mac user amuses me greatly
20120125 20:24:58< shadowm> bonus point if he or she also owns an iPhone
20120125 20:26:00< vultraz> crimson_penguin: well...I did update the project settings to what they recommended 
20120125 20:26:13< vultraz> LVMM (or whatever it's called)
20120125 20:26:16< vultraz> 10.7 SDK
20120125 20:26:20< shadowm> LLVM
20120125 20:26:43< crimson_penguin> vultraz: it's easy to change back
20120125 20:26:49< crimson_penguin> clang
20120125 20:28:02< vultraz> so...the old settings might work where the new ones failed?
20120125 20:32:02< Aethaeryn> anonymissimus: removing two lines in MoD produce the bug
20120125 20:32:43< Aethaeryn> when I have the time I will code a test case if I can
20120125 20:33:53< Aethaeryn> and attach it to a gna bugreport
20120125 20:35:02-!- Elvish_Hunter [5ea1bd6a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.161.189.106] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120125 20:35:06< Aethaeryn> I'll take side 6 def from MoD and put iy in a simple scenario to issolate other factors
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20120125 20:42:14< crimson_penguin> vultraz: yeah
20120125 20:42:23< vultraz> hummm
20120125 20:42:34< vultraz> er...what's clang BTW>>>>
20120125 20:43:12< crimson_penguin> it's a new compiler that's better than gcc
20120125 20:44:59< shadowm> how is it supposed to be better?
20120125 20:46:28< vultraz> er...then why did they suggest LLVM
20120125 20:47:25< Elvish_Hunter> Hi all
20120125 20:47:44< Elvish_Hunter> I have two questions about two bugs and the string/feature freeze
20120125 20:48:54< Elvish_Hunter> While playtesting, I found a bug with the scenario 15 of SotBE: the death of Al'Brock and Flar'Tar is a defeat condition in the objectives.
20120125 20:49:02< crimson_penguin> vultraz: I think it's sort of both
20120125 20:49:12< Elvish_Hunter> But these two units aren't present in that scenario.
20120125 20:49:16< crimson_penguin> shadowm: better errors/warnings, faster
20120125 20:49:38< vultraz> crimson_penguin: both? I'm lost here....
20120125 20:49:41< shadowm> I doubt that's very useful for vultraz's usage.
20120125 20:49:41< Elvish_Hunter> Should I comment out the lines like here: http://pastebin.com/34yAsTJ2 or can I delete them?
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20120125 20:50:22< shadowm> Elvish_Hunter: as far as wmlxgettext cares, deleting and commenting out is the same
20120125 20:50:32< crimson_penguin> vultraz: well it says "Apple LLVM compiler 3.0", but really it's LLVM + clang
20120125 20:50:41< vultraz> ahhhhhhhh
20120125 20:50:45< crimson_penguin> shadowm: I'm suggesting he NOT use it; it's the default compiler now, but it could be the problem
20120125 20:51:25< vultraz> Lion seems to have created a lot of problems for teh mac version of wesnoth
20120125 20:51:28< Elvish_Hunter> So, can I safely delete them? Normally I won't ask such question, but given our current hard freeze...
20120125 20:51:40< shadowm> vultraz: every SDL application, not just Wesnoth.
20120125 20:51:55< crimson_penguin> "Luckily, Apple has an excellent optimizing compiler called Clang (since rechristened by Apple's marketing geniuses as the Apple LLVM Compiler 3.0)."
20120125 20:52:05< shadowm> Elvish_Hunter: if they are used elsewhere, they'll stay in the catalog. If they are not, they'll just disappear and that isn't really harmful for translators anyway.
20120125 20:52:37< Elvish_Hunter> OK, thanks.
20120125 20:52:47< crimson_penguin> shadowm: http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7.ars/10 - I think ARC only works with clang as well
20120125 20:53:09< shadowm> Elvish_Hunter: it's *adding* previously missing strings (or altering existing ones) that's a problem during a string freeze
20120125 20:54:51< CIA-59> elvish_hunter * r52771 /trunk/data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/15_Civil_War.cfg: SotBE: fixed objectives that reported death of Al'Brock and Flar'Tar as a defeat condition in scenario 15
20120125 20:55:58< shadowm> changelog entry!
20120125 20:56:31< Elvish_Hunter> Now, the second question: Aleph from the Wesnoth Italian Forum reported me that Kaleh in UtBS, when fully upgraded, has his XP bar that disappear, and his XP label is blue instead of violet.
20120125 20:56:39< vultraz> Elvish_Hunter: BTW can you help me with this? http://pastebin.com/sSNTyKaA gives http://imagebin.org/195510
20120125 20:57:08< Elvish_Hunter> Adding AMLA_DEFAULT fixes this. Does not violate our feature freeze, right?
20120125 20:57:22< vultraz> (which is line 3 in paste)
20120125 20:57:27< shadowm> Elvish_Hunter: Espreon might want to look at the patch
20120125 20:58:12< Elvish_Hunter> Yeah, I tried to contact him, but currently he's away... I'll drop him a PM.
20120125 20:58:27< shadowm> he reads the logs
20120125 20:59:35-!- lipk [~lipka_bol@host-91-147-212-174.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120125 20:59:49< Elvish_Hunter> Well, my proposed patch is here: http://pastebin.com/TMrg87ru
20120125 21:00:36< shadowm> Elvish_Hunter: that isn't really a diff
20120125 21:02:36< Elvish_Hunter> No, there are just two missing AMLA_DEFAULT. But I preferred to ask rather than doing a potentially wrong action.
20120125 21:03:19< shadowm> By the way, I just sent my plans for 1.12 to the ML.
20120125 21:03:37< shadowm> Comments welcome (in the mailing list, please, because I really hate cross-media discussions)
20120125 21:07:31< CIA-59> elvish_hunter * r52772 /trunk/changelog: Changelog entry for my former commit
20120125 21:10:35< Elvish_Hunter> vultraz: wesnoth.match_unit takes two parameters, one unit object and one WML table containing a SUF. You passed it only a unit ID.
20120125 21:13:45< vultraz> so...
20120125 21:13:55< vultraz> if cfg.id == wesnoth.match_unit(unit, { unit[i].id}) then ?
20120125 21:14:24< Elvish_Hunter> viltraz: perhaps this should work: if wesnoth.match_unit( unit, { id = cfg.id } ) then
20120125 21:15:31-!- EdB [~edb@tss37-1-89-82-194-231.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20120125 21:19:13< anonymissimus> Elvish_Hunter: pls paste diffs, not files...
20120125 21:20:36< vultraz> Elvish_Hunter: er....now it says I gave wlm_actions.unit a table and not a  WML table....
20120125 21:22:46< Elvish_Hunter> vultraz: try this http://pastebin.com/tL3b2yrC
20120125 21:28:40< Elvish_Hunter> anonymissimus: Espreon is already working on this. Anyway, here is the diff: http://pastebin.com/R0vi6zcC
20120125 21:29:46< vultraz> Elvish_Hunter: attempt to index local 'cfg'(a userdata value)
20120125 21:31:20< anonymissimus> Elvish_Hunter: well fine with me since the feature is required to fix a bug; not sure about shadowm however
20120125 21:31:50< shadowm> I already gave my opinion: 16:57:27 <shadowm> Elvish_Hunter: Espreon might want to look at the patch
20120125 21:32:58< shadowm> At the risk of stating the obvious, I'll also note that this doesn't _break_ anything per se, and in the worst case users will only need to start over to enjoy the fix.
20120125 21:33:56< shadowm> The only reason I'm routing this change through Espreon is UtBS:E
20120125 21:42:10< Elvish_Hunter> vultraz: this way works for me: http://pastebin.com/BceUG6Bd
20120125 21:55:27< fendrin> shadowm: Your proposal regarding the addon system.
20120125 21:56:05< vultraz> Elvish_Hunter: I still get that error
20120125 21:56:08< vultraz> :S
20120125 21:56:31< fendrin> shadowm: It is very much related to the support for total conversations/UM-cores and should be designed in the same process to avoid problems.
20120125 21:56:51< shadowm> conversions, not conversations (the latter is what we are doing at the moment)
20120125 21:57:00< fendrin> right, sorry.
20120125 21:57:11< shadowm> I have not heard much about that project, so I have no idea about what it's supposed to entail.
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20120125 21:57:48< fendrin> shadowm: There is an old feature request assigned to me from which I didn't know of when I thought about it first.
20120125 21:58:39< fendrin> shadowm: https://gna.org/bugs/?8832
20120125 21:59:09< Elvish_Hunter> vultraz: custom unit variables should be stored in unit.variables
20120125 21:59:43< fendrin> shadowm: What zookeeper wrote is more or less still valid.
20120125 21:59:54< Elvish_Hunter> But here, I can't really give you a suggestion without seeing the code that writes .class...
20120125 22:02:51< shadowm> fendrin: right, but as my WIP proposal explains (I believe) it'd be nice to make all add-ons manageable by the user when installed instead of solely relying on the singleplayer/multiplayer modes separation.
20120125 22:03:18< shadowm> I'm not entirely sure how that should play with more intrusive add-ons like mods or whether mods should be add-ons int he first place.
20120125 22:04:00< fendrin> shadowm: Oh yes, that is one of the prerequisites of what is needed to be done to get LoW MP in again. I hope you can get to it. 
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20120125 22:04:47< shadowm> isn't what you want for that real MP campaigns (instead of scenarios with valid successors)?
20120125 22:05:00< fendrin> Yes
20120125 22:05:11< shadowm> because as far as I understand, MP campaigns are currently implemented as MP scenarios with successors (i.e. next_scenario not "null")
20120125 22:05:27< fendrin> Yeah, but a SP isn't much more either.
20120125 22:05:55-!- MeccaGod [~majs@host189-199.bornet.net] has quit []
20120125 22:06:40< fendrin> Basically you have the _main.cfg with the campaign specific define and the campaign tag with some extra information. The rest is more or less equal between both constructs.
20120125 22:07:23< shadowm> and integrated difficulty levels
20120125 22:08:16< CIA-59> espreon * r52773 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Made it so that Kaleh gets the default AMLA after he's been fully upgraded.
20120125 22:08:18< shadowm> that is, using the preprocessor facilities instead of relying on complicated WML variable conditionals (although some would argue the latter would be a better approach, I guess)
20120125 22:08:22< fendrin> Right, more or less it is a result of the campaign specific define which allows the delayed parsing of the campaign files.
20120125 22:10:01< mordante> I'm off night
20120125 22:10:13-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20120125 22:10:15< vultraz> Elvish_Hunter: it's an for each character that has lots of different vars used around teh scenarios: eg Rhyan.class, Norethial.hpleft, etc
20120125 22:10:20< vultraz> an array*
20120125 22:10:20< shadowm> anyway, I haven't decided whether my planned system is the best (I haven't even tried to cover all cases yet either, which is the frightening/tedious part); that's why I plan to focus on the various dependency tiers first 
20120125 22:11:44< shadowm> having dependency tiers would also allow me to significantly make maintenance of AtS and IftU easier by moving music to a separate optional add-on, and shared units WML and resources to a separate *required* add-on
20120125 22:11:47< Elvish_Hunter> vultraz: try with if wesnoth.get_variable( unit.id .. ".class" ) == "none" then
20120125 22:12:43< Elvish_Hunter> But not knowing the array structure, I'm just guessing.
20120125 22:12:44< shadowm> technically I could already do that, but then people would start asking me why one or another campaign doesn't work without all dependencies, etc.; the current single-tier system assumes all dependencies to be optional
20120125 22:13:11< vultraz> Elvish_Hunter: would that input the current unit being looked at's id?
20120125 22:13:15< shadowm> then users are left to deal with any errors *after* wasting some amount of time downloading the add-ons
20120125 22:13:19< vultraz> without the need of i ?
20120125 22:13:36< fendrin> I see. My thoughts about the support for addon cores did have such a dependency system in mind, still achieved by defines during the runtime and reparsing since that system is working and is more or less reliable.
20120125 22:14:19< Elvish_Hunter> vultraz: yes. Otherwise, we'll need to try with string.format.
20120125 22:15:19< fendrin> Every addon would come with something like the current [campaign] tag defining a set of symbols with which the reparsing takes place.
20120125 22:15:24< vultraz> actually seems it doesn't like line 35 on this: http://pastebin.com/CGPWLWez
20120125 22:15:35< vultraz> (that's the whole file)
20120125 22:15:57< loonycyborg> shadowm: What is the point of any dependency tier other than 'mandatory'? :P
20120125 22:16:26< shadowm> people don't always want or need to play with music
20120125 22:16:38< loonycyborg> Will it ask a question about them?
20120125 22:16:50< shadowm> obviously
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20120125 22:17:13< Elvish_Hunter> vultraz: when I tested, it correctly created me the unit near the leader. But in the WML part I supplied x, y, type and id.
20120125 22:17:43< Elvish_Hunter> Then, it raised the error while attempting to read the non-existing variable, but that's another issue.
20120125 22:17:46< shadowm> the whole point is having some sort of user-level support for this
20120125 22:18:00< shadowm> as I said add-on authors already have the tools to emulate much of this functionality
20120125 22:18:49< fendrin> There is an addon manager needed where you can enable/disable each addon/whatever on its own.
20120125 22:19:31< fendrin> As long as you still satisfy all mandatories inside the current set.
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20120125 22:21:21< vultraz> Elvish_Hunter: I gave it name, id, type, role, and {IS_HERO}
20120125 22:21:23< loonycyborg> If an addon has a lot of optional deps you can end up with a lot of annoying dialog boxes :P Though no idea why an addon would want to have a lot of optional deps
20120125 22:22:09< fendrin> Depends on how the gui is organized.
20120125 22:22:19< shadowm> if an add-ons has a lot of brokenness you can also end up with a lot of annoying dialog boxes
20120125 22:22:24< shadowm> ;)
20120125 22:22:38< Elvish_Hunter> vultraz: did you try, as I said, without [i] ?
20120125 22:22:45< shadowm> (would be nice to sort that out too so the preprocessor only shows a single dialog with all the reports)
20120125 22:23:04< Elvish_Hunter> Because for me, the placement line works.
20120125 22:23:37< loonycyborg> fendrin: Ah. Yes. You can also have a list with checkboxes.
20120125 22:28:40< vultraz> Elvish_Hunter: humm...works if I put the placement line in the WML
20120125 22:29:16< vultraz> and for some reason I get two of the second unit I was expecting
20120125 22:30:27< Elvish_Hunter> vultraz: now I have to go. You can drop me a PM with all the stuff (even the WML and array parts) and I'll take a look at it. OK?
20120125 22:30:28< vultraz> and teh event didn't fire for anyone but the first unit
20120125 22:30:33< vultraz> ok
20120125 22:30:49< Elvish_Hunter> Bye!
20120125 22:30:55-!- Elvish_Hunter [5ea1bd6a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.161.189.106] has quit [Quit: Ciao!]
20120125 22:37:57-!- Pete-Flux [~quassel@unaffiliated/peterporty] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120125 22:44:24 * fendrin send a mail to the mailing list regarding recall costs.
20120125 22:47:38-!- Pete-Flux is now known as PetePorty
20120125 22:53:27< fendrin> loonycyborg: Or some sort of dependency graph thing maybe with the checkboxes.
20120125 22:55:10< noy> I saw your post fendrin. 
20120125 22:55:16< noy> or I should say email
20120125 22:55:36< noy> A few questions... I'm not too sure if there is an "issue" with the Age of Heoroes
20120125 22:55:53< noy> *heroes
20120125 22:55:59< noy> can you point me to one?
20120125 22:57:06< anonymissimus> Espreon: I don't understand http://gna.org/bugs/?19328; which chat notifications ?
20120125 22:57:50< zookeeper> that's an awfully long mail. so you just want dynamic recall costs?
20120125 22:59:00< zookeeper> my suggestion would be 8+8/level, or simply the same as the recruit cost (with costs of higher-level units lowered somewhat across the board).
20120125 22:59:44< Espreon> anonymissimus: The ones that get sent to your desktop environment whenever someone "speaks" in MP.
20120125 23:00:06< shadowm> Espreon: they use D-Bus, which isn't available on Windows
20120125 23:00:37< noy> is that for IRC?
20120125 23:02:05< Espreon> shadowm: And?
20120125 23:02:17< shadowm> Espreon: anonymissimus uses Windows.
20120125 23:02:25< shadowm> He doesn't get any such notifications.
20120125 23:02:28< fendrin> noy: Hmm, I am not aware of a specific issue with it. I just heard rumors that Default would be much better balanced than Age of Heroes and believed them to be true. At least it makes sense since Age of Heroes concerns more recruitable units at once and might get less feedback just because it is not used that often. I guess when you ask me that, the balance of AoH is indeed fine nowadays?
20120125 23:02:32< Espreon> Ah, yes.
20120125 23:03:51< noy> its not really better balanced, there can't be a way for it to be better balanced because of the huge potential disparity in power between units
20120125 23:04:52< noy> like technically the balance is fine. The problem is that there are so many different ways to implement strategies that if you get it wrong, you lose. 
20120125 23:06:45< fendrin> noy: Understood. It's balanced to the max but out of technical reasons it can't be balanced as much as default.
20120125 23:07:11< anonymissimus> Espreon: ah ok; yes, that feature isn't on win, but I have seen them a few times under ubuntu
20120125 23:07:18< noy> Balance I think is the wrong word to use here in a way. 
20120125 23:07:53< noy> because everything is balanced. Problem is that AoH is too volitile
20120125 23:08:02< noy> volatile, and unpredictable
20120125 23:08:20< noy> that's its problem
20120125 23:10:36< fendrin> I see.
20120125 23:11:21< noy> too many options. 
20120125 23:11:53< noy> As for your broader initiative, I suggest you talk to two people in particular: zookeeper and jb
20120125 23:12:23< noy> work it out with them directly
20120125 23:13:22< fendrin> I will do that. Still the MP balance is not directly a concern for my approach. It's more or less a singleplayer campaign issue only. None of the changes should affect MP in any way.
20120125 23:14:20< noy> No, I'm thinking MP campaigns
20120125 23:14:36< noy> which I think your proposal actually has more of an effect on given their general design
20120125 23:15:22< fendrin> zookeeper: Right, this wasn't the shortest email ever. Felt the need to argument properly and detailed in that matter.
20120125 23:16:43< zookeeper> sure
20120125 23:17:03< zookeeper> anyway, i gotta go now, so if you want to talk about it then catch me another time...
20120125 23:17:05-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20120125 23:17:12< fendrin> noy: Hmmm, is there much difference between MP and SP Campaigns? My only experience is with LoW which is a cooperative one where it should behave equally.
20120125 23:18:05< noy> Recalls in MP campaigns are more critical than in SP campaigns because of the more liberal use of WML events to "upgrade" them. Changing recall costs really affects their use. They have been carefully balanced with this in mind.  
20120125 23:18:26< noy> take World Conquest, the most popular MP campaign
20120125 23:19:04< noy> you basically upgrade a front tier of units, and increase their statistics over their equivalent lvl3s
20120125 23:20:03< noy> by the end you're supposed to have an army of extremely high level units, that you recall
20120125 23:20:25< noy> Jb and others have balanced it so that its really difficult to do under the current set up
20120125 23:20:28-!- enchilado [~enchilado@defocus/yummy/enchilado] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120125 23:20:30< noy> I mean to win
20120125 23:20:46< noy> so playing around with the recall system will force them to change it
20120125 23:21:19< noy> its just something you should coordinate with him, because he's also made or assisted with virtually every good scenario we have
20120125 23:21:49< fendrin> Sure, no doubt with that. I think that all SP campaigns will be reworked somehow as well. That is why I didn't suggest to enforce the change and make it pure optional for the designers.
20120125 23:22:13< noy> the other option, and this was the reason why we've resisted changing it in the past is to ensure consistency
20120125 23:22:33< noy> that people aren't wondering about what the recruit system is between one scenario and another
20120125 23:22:58< noy> adding complexity might not really benefit game design in this case
20120125 23:24:14< fendrin> Yeah, I recognize all this points.
20120125 23:24:25< noy> I understand why you're doing it, and I think it has alot of merit, I just don't know if its worth it for the work its going to cause, and the effect on added complexity for the game. 
20120125 23:25:36< anonymissimus> fendrin: did you catch my pointer to http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=519243#p519243 and the concersation with Aethaeryn ? pls note that there are people much more concerned/demanding regarding backwards compat ;)
20120125 23:26:45< fendrin> Indeed, that is an experiment. LoW is not optimal balanced at the moment so I need to spend much work on that in any case. So I thought testing another system might be the right time for.
20120125 23:27:14< shadowm> LoW is hardly a standard SP campaign.
20120125 23:27:32< shadowm> I'd advise you keep that in mind before considering changes to standard mechanisms for every other campaign.
20120125 23:28:12< fendrin> Why isn't it a standard SP campaign?
20120125 23:29:25< shadowm> Because it's lengthy, has some non-standard mechanics on it (... do I even need to explain that...), and the maintainer is crazy.
20120125 23:29:35< fendrin> ah yes
20120125 23:29:44< fendrin> the last point at least is valid :-)
20120125 23:32:02< fendrin> The lengthiness is somehow softened by 2 points in the campaign where the gold is reduced to a static value and the recall lists are also filtered at several locations. 
20120125 23:32:33< fendrin> For my taste DM is the much more non standard campaign and it has two crazy maintainers.
20120125 23:36:28< shadowm> I don't think people like having their hoarded gold and units stolen from them.
20120125 23:38:00< fendrin> Yes, indeed. They also dislike the genocide scenario where the children get slaughtered. It was hard work to make it that disgusting. Didn't expect it to work out that well. But we even have the right music for that matter these days.
20120125 23:38:28< vultraz> ???????????
20120125 23:38:41< vultraz> DM or LoW
20120125 23:39:01< fendrin> LoW, scenario 19, Costly Revenge
20120125 23:40:34< shadowm> And most people aren't in for the plot.
20120125 23:40:57< fendrin> That is new to me.
20120125 23:41:04 * Espreon chuckles
20120125 23:41:42< fendrin> There is a problem with the plot?
20120125 23:41:50-!- Alarantalara [~Adium@CPEc0c1c09e8055-CM00252eac6d62.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120125 23:41:56< vultraz> o_O killing young 
20120125 23:42:01< vultraz> that's a new one....
20120125 23:42:23< shadowm> vultraz: oh boy, I can see it was a good idea to never go into much detail as to what happens in E1S9.3 in AtS for you
20120125 23:42:53< vultraz> ;)
20120125 23:42:55< shadowm> fendrin: no, I wasn't referring to any campaign's plot specifically. I'm just saying most people want to play the game, not read the book of the ame.
20120125 23:42:58< shadowm> game
20120125 23:43:36< vultraz> shadowm: Galas's death WAS sudden....
20120125 23:43:41< vultraz> and unexpected 
20120125 23:43:50< fendrin> Yeah, still the number of people complaining about costly revenge made me feel that I did well on producing a really disgusting one, like I intended to do.
20120125 23:43:53< shadowm> vultraz: You don't want to know what I had originally storyboarded for his death.
20120125 23:43:59< shadowm> :)
20120125 23:44:02< vultraz> O_O
20120125 23:44:10< Espreon> shadowm: But I do!
20120125 23:46:19< vultraz> shadowm: what...did undead Galas fight Elynia or something?
20120125 23:46:25-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20120125 23:46:33< shadowm> vultraz: see my channel
20120125 23:47:14< fendrin> vultraz: There had been complains that Landar isn't a proper antagonist in the past. I think the killing young them does solve that problem once and for all.
20120125 23:48:16< anonymissimus> fendrin: I for one absolutely dislike loyal units being put to Ai allies where they're sacrificed
20120125 23:48:42< fendrin> I think about changing that.
20120125 23:48:45< anonymissimus> sacrificing non-loyals can be accepted
20120125 23:49:34< anonymissimus> a single character or so with good story reasons is also ok
20120125 23:49:56< anonymissimus> shadowm: did I ever tell you I loved "face your fate" in IftU :)
20120125 23:50:35< anonymissimus> this is the right scenario to be designed by you
20120125 23:50:45< fendrin> anonymissimus: How about placing them as a guard around Uradredia? That will most likely prevent them from being slaughtered.
20120125 23:51:44< vultraz> I LOVE IftU
20120125 23:51:54< shadowm> anonymissimus: because of the kill-them-all bomb?
20120125 23:52:05< vultraz> IMO, it one of THE BEST campaigns ever
20120125 23:52:23< Espreon> No, it is THE best campaign evar.
20120125 23:52:25< fendrin> vultraz: IftU is just great. Alone the maps and all the little details on them.
20120125 23:52:56< vultraz> yeah. and the scenarios. and the story
20120125 23:52:58< vultraz> :D
20120125 23:53:04 * vultraz bows to shadowm
20120125 23:53:54< anonymissimus> fendrin: are there story reasons for putting them on the allied side ? it would probably work...and enable the human player to protect them
20120125 23:54:57< fendrin> Yes, there are story reasons. Maybe the plot could be changed. But I would rather go with tuning the ai.
20120125 23:55:28< anonymissimus> yeah, IftU...all the exorbitantly complex wml...all the massive load of maintenance...
20120125 23:56:13< anonymissimus> shadowm: well, probably because it was so challenging as opposed to the other scenarios...and it's sadistic
20120125 23:56:41< anonymissimus> I defeated Elyssa twice IIRC
20120125 23:58:57< anonymissimus> fendrin: well then, making them stationary should be very easy and should work
--- Log closed Thu Jan 26 00:00:03 2012