--- Log opened Thu Jan 26 00:00:03 2012
--- Day changed Thu Jan 26 2012
20120126 00:00:03< loonycyborg> fendrin: About your mail: IMO it's rather bad idea to de-emphasize building up a strong army of veteran units over course of scenarios,
20120126 00:00:03< fendrin> anonymissimus: It's on my TODO then...
20120126 00:00:26< loonycyborg> Since this aspect I myself enjoy the most :P
20120126 00:01:31< fendrin> loonycyborg: Yes, that is the case for me as well. Thus I want to go with only 60-80% of the recruit costs to make it still worth to collect veterans.
20120126 00:02:00< loonycyborg> Actually I'd prefer if all units were unkillable and after getting defeated were available in next scenarios with xp loss instead :P
20120126 00:02:31< fendrin> loonycyborg: Funny, I am working on a MP mini campaign where exactly that happens.
20120126 00:03:20< loonycyborg> How is it called so I could recognize it among addons?
20120126 00:11:42< fendrin> loonycyborg: I still haven't commited anything the addon server. The working title is "enemy territory" since I try to emulate and got inspired by team shooters like "Enemy territory Quake Wars".
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20120126 00:49:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: tagged 1.10.0, announcing on January 29th | HARD string and feature-freeze active for trunk and the 1.10 announcment | 150 bugs, 335 feature requests, 18 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20120126 10:55:46< Ivanovic> moin
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20120126 19:28:48< Aethaeryn> ooooh
20120126 19:30:00< loonycyborg> eh?
20120126 19:30:43< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: Can I combine beetlenaut's "change difficulty levels" and your #3 (check army strength) to test on some short mainline campaign?
20120126 19:31:15< Aethaeryn> Basically: (1) determine player strength based on gold and recalls past lvl 1 and from that (2) place them in one of the preexisting difficulties
20120126 19:31:47< Aethaeryn> I didn't actually come up with anything original, I just took all the ideas you guys posted and made it trivial to code because I am lazy.
20120126 19:36:51< Aethaeryn> The one problem with my idea is that Wesnoth uses SVN instead of git so I can't just "fork" the game right now for testing with 0 effort. <_<
20120126 19:37:39< zookeeper> dave had a good point about it not being fun when high-level units are way more expensive to recall, and i might kinda reverse my stance on the dynamic recall costs.
20120126 19:38:58< zookeeper> Aethaeryn, how is it any less inconvenient with svn? just make a checkout and try out whatever you want there. sure you can't do commits, but do you need to? not really, for something like that.
20120126 19:38:58< loonycyborg> Aethaeryn: You don't need git for testing. It only adds annoying extra steps :P
20120126 19:39:22< Aethaeryn> zookeeper: eh, I like being able to make intermediary commits so I don't lose my work... it encourages experimentation
20120126 19:39:35< Aethaeryn> I guess that's just my style vs wesnoth's
20120126 19:39:42< zookeeper> so you don't lose your work in case what happens?
20120126 19:39:54< Aethaeryn> Well, let's say I have something that works, but is hideously coded.
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20120126 19:40:08< Aethaeryn> I commit it to a testing branch, then rewrite it. If I screw up, I can drop the rewrite.
20120126 19:40:24< Aethaeryn> If not, I can keep the rewrite that matches features but is better.
20120126 19:40:44< Aethaeryn> Having something you can revert to, that imo is what revisions are for.
20120126 19:41:02< zookeeper> okay
20120126 19:41:03< Aethaeryn> It doesn't happen often but it happens about once every few months enough for me to keep frequent backups.
20120126 19:41:30< Aethaeryn> But anyway, with something like git I don't subject everyone else to the intermediate steps, but those steps are still there.
20120126 19:41:39< Aethaeryn> git handles branches a lot easier than svn
20120126 19:42:35< zookeeper> anyway, i certainly agree that it should be possible to drop the difficulty level mid-campaign. there might be some small changes needed in mainline campaigns to accommodate that, but it shouldn't be much.
20120126 19:43:28< Aethaeryn> The proposal I wrote moves all the work to the new function.
20120126 19:44:07< Aethaeryn> Assuming campaigns are already perfectly balanced, the dynamic mode's switcher is what needs to be balanced if there's a problem, not the campaigns themselves.
20120126 19:44:54< Aethaeryn> I mean, you can go the more-work way if you want someone to GSOC it or something, but I'm used to being the only coder in a one-man projects, so I like finding the easiest way to get roughly the desired effect.
20120126 19:46:23< Aethaeryn> zookeeper: If you use the idea Ivanovic wrote about difficulty level calculations, and simply use that integer (based on gold and high-level recalls) to place you in an existing difficulty based on some ranges, you should only change as many lines in the campaigns themselves as there are difficulty range declaration things.
20120126 19:48:07< Aethaeryn> In fact, I'm already coding it.
20120126 19:48:26< Aethaeryn> zookeeper: wesnoth.get_recall_units and wesnoth.get_side(1).gold should be all you need for the difficulty determination, right?
20120126 19:48:40< zookeeper> i was talking about difficulty levels.
20120126 19:49:01< Aethaeryn> oh, I misread that as just "difficulty"
20120126 19:49:48< Aethaeryn> zookeeper: Do campaign maintainers have full control over their campaign?
20120126 19:51:50< Crab____> Aethaeryn: in NR player sometimes controls several sides, so not only side-1 gold is involved. but you can just pick other, simpler, campaign for the test.
20120126 19:52:36< Aethaeryn> Crab____: Well, yeah, I'm just coding it for the general, naive case. It's possible that it needs to be adjusted. In fact, it's certain that it needs to be adjusted.
20120126 19:53:22< Aethaeryn> Crab____: For the test, I'm just taking their gold, adding it to the gold value of their recalled units > level 1 (assuming that the gold value there is fair based on strength), and returning an integer
20120126 19:54:39< Aethaeryn> This won't work as well in many places (e.g. Delfador's Memiors where the recall list gets reset frequently)
20120126 19:55:56< Crab____> Aethaeryn: instead of ' gold value of their recalled units > level 1', you can use 'gold value of unit in recall list- recall_cost where it is > 0'
20120126 19:56:11< Aethaeryn> ah
20120126 19:56:33< Aethaeryn> Good point.
20120126 19:56:39< Aethaeryn> You always recall >= 20 units, like mages/horses
20120126 19:56:51< Aethaeryn> If they have xp/traits
20120126 19:57:13< Crab____> Aethaeryn: for extra fun, you can take xp/traits into account, of course)
20120126 19:57:23< Aethaeryn> well...
20120126 19:57:39< Aethaeryn> I could multiply it by 1 + xp percent
20120126 19:57:46< Aethaeryn> level + xp percent
20120126 19:57:59< Aethaeryn> so a level 1 about to level is 1.9 and a level 2 with 0 xp is 2
20120126 19:58:23< Aethaeryn> but actually, that would really weight it to level 2s since their cost is higher
20120126 19:58:30< Aethaeryn> Hmm...
20120126 19:58:37< Crab____> maybe  (1-xp_percent * old_cost) + xp_percent * new_cost ?
20120126 19:59:05< Aethaeryn> What happens if they have two promotions of different value?
20120126 19:59:09< Crab____> take highest
20120126 19:59:17< Aethaeryn> Okay.
20120126 19:59:22< Aethaeryn> I was considering average but that works too.
20120126 19:59:30< Crab____> yes, average would work, as well.
20120126 19:59:40< Aethaeryn> Well, we should assume that the player takes the optimal choice.
20120126 19:59:59< Crab____> well, optimal long-term choice might be different
20120126 20:00:03< Aethaeryn> true
20120126 20:00:08< Crab____> but: if the player is not in trouble, he won't care
20120126 20:00:08< Aethaeryn> and healers
20120126 20:00:22< Crab____> and, if a player is in trouble, he will pick whatever is better *now*, since he's in trouble now.
20120126 20:00:46< Aethaeryn> (1 - xp_percent * cost) + xp_percent * avg_cost_of_promotions
20120126 20:00:51< Aethaeryn> Crab____: is that the simplest algorithm?
20120126 20:00:58< Crab____> no, there's an error
20120126 20:01:12< Crab____> (1 - xp_percent) * cost + xp_percent * avg_cost_of_promotions
20120126 20:01:53< Aethaeryn> Okay.
20120126 20:02:04< Aethaeryn> Right now we're just going to add this to their total gold
20120126 20:02:12< Aethaeryn> Playtests will show what to weight gold and what to weight this
20120126 20:02:38< Crab____> if adding to total gold, it's better to do :        (1 - xp_percent) * cost + xp_percent * avg_cost_of_promotions - recall_cost             IF it is > 0
20120126 20:03:51< Aethaeryn> Wow, I totally was going to put >= 0
20120126 20:03:57< Aethaeryn> In my summation <_<
20120126 20:04:22< Crab____> well, that'll work as well :)
20120126 20:04:49< Crab____> it's just that recall_cost is paid if we'd recall the unit, so if a unit is worth 35 gp, it only adds 15 gp to total
20120126 20:05:05< Crab____> note that there's a problem here
20120126 20:05:25< Crab____> if I have 19 gold and 1000 L4 recruits, it won't help me much.
20120126 20:05:34< Crab____> since I don't have the gold to recall them
20120126 20:06:08< Crab____> so, for best results, only best N recalls should count, where N is the number which can be recalled at the start of the next scenario
20120126 20:06:09< Aethaeryn> Crab____: How does Wesnoth implement difficulty? We might not even need to code a "let difficulty be switchable" feature. We simply add a "Dynamic" level that chooses from the three (or so) difficulty levels based on the returned number and the defined ranges, and then puts the player there.
20120126 20:06:25< Aethaeryn> Does this require any engine rewrites?
20120126 20:06:41< Crab____> Aethaeryn: difficulty is a preprocessor define, which matters when we parse the scenario config
20120126 20:06:50< Aethaeryn> The more this is "just code a WML feature in Lua", the easier this becomes to patch
20120126 20:07:14< Crab____> Aethaeryn: technically, when we have a prestart save, the difficulty can still be changed (since the scenario WML is not yet loaded)
20120126 20:07:29< loonycyborg> Aethaeryn: I hate dynamic difficulty since playing 'Homeworld' :P
20120126 20:07:45< Crab____> +1 here. I hate dynamic difficulty as well :)
20120126 20:08:00< Aethaeryn> Crab____: I think we should take the maximum units possible to recall with available gold, yes.
20120126 20:08:06< Aethaeryn> Crab____: This isn't dynamic per se, though.
20120126 20:08:10< Crab____> Aethaeryn: but, obviously, there's a chicken and egg problem here if we want to do it *correctly*, since we don't know the recall list and gold for the next scenario until we actually open it.
20120126 20:08:43< Crab____> Aethaeryn: so, I would just not touch the engine for now at all
20120126 20:08:44< Aethaeryn> If you're on the "right" difficulty level for you, nothing changes. And nothing changes in the existing 'noth
20120126 20:08:57< Aethaeryn> This just puts you in a harder level if the game suddenly becomes too hard or too easy.
20120126 20:09:02< Crab____> Aethaeryn: do a hack, for now)
20120126 20:09:05< Aethaeryn> *harder or easier level
20120126 20:09:19< Crab____> Aethaeryn: i.e. make 1 campaign work the way you want it to work, but without touching much C++
20120126 20:09:42< Crab____> Aethaeryn: because, really, we're not interested in the implementation, we're more interested in seeing how it would affect gameplay.
20120126 20:09:54< Aethaeryn> Yeah.
20120126 20:10:33< Aethaeryn> Crab____: Wait, I think I know how this can be done trivially.
20120126 20:10:41< Crab____> Aethaeryn: so, even if the implementation is as horrible as 'pick the next scenario depending on a WML variable, and have 3 copies of the scenario, with the difficulty level already set in each'
20120126 20:10:58< Aethaeryn> The definition for "Dynamic" would be "if in range 1, do easy, if in range 2 do medium, if in range 3 to hard"
20120126 20:13:27< Aethaeryn> oh, I see
20120126 20:13:40< Aethaeryn> Crab____: Since when is difficulty determined by #ifdef HARD and stuff?
20120126 20:14:37< Crab____> it's always the case
20120126 20:14:43< Crab____> i.e. for as long as I remember
20120126 20:14:58< Aethaeryn> hmm
20120126 20:15:06< Aethaeryn> I could've sworn I saw a campaign doing difficulty in macros
20120126 20:15:10< Crab____> in most cases, the ifdef is inside a helper macro
20120126 20:15:18< Crab____> but it's in there, inside.
20120126 20:15:19< Aethaeryn> ah
20120126 20:15:32< Aethaeryn> And is there a way to before anything else is done, change that?
20120126 20:15:40< Crab____> in C++
20120126 20:15:44< Aethaeryn> Oh, wait
20120126 20:15:47< Aethaeryn> I know
20120126 20:15:51< Aethaeryn> hmm
20120126 20:15:56< Aethaeryn> nevermind, campaigns are too fancy
20120126 20:16:07< Crab____> or you can create copies of the scenario, with #ifdef already expanded
20120126 20:16:33< Aethaeryn> Crab____: So is it possible I could keep this in Lua/WML/etc. and simply have a wesnoth.change_difficulty() defined in C++?
20120126 20:16:34< Crab____> i.e. instead of scenario2 you'll have scenario2_easy, scenario2_normal, scenario2_hard
20120126 20:16:47< Crab____> you can't change difficulty in scenario
20120126 20:17:04< Crab____> I suggest adding an extra parameter to tags which end level
20120126 20:17:31< Crab____> i.e., instead of saying 'next_scenario=foo', let the WML say 'next_scenario=foo difficulty=HARD'
20120126 20:17:42< Aethaeryn> I was going to do this check at the end of the level instead, but the problem is that some scenarios reset recalls or swap out recall lists
20120126 20:17:57< Crab____> easy: find a campaign where it's not done
20120126 20:18:15< Crab____> the generic case is unsolvable without some quite fun stuff)
20120126 20:18:58< Aethaeryn> Is there any way to read the difficulty of the WML?
20120126 20:19:05< zookeeper> Aethaeryn, um, full control over their campaign meaning what?
20120126 20:19:23< Aethaeryn> zookeeper: Would I need to ask for permission to do this test
20120126 20:20:09< zookeeper> Aethaeryn, on what?
20120126 20:21:03< Aethaeryn> A campaign
20120126 20:21:04< Crab____> Aethaeryn: what about cloning a mainline campaign and making a UMC addon out of it?
20120126 20:21:09< zookeeper> i doubt anyone would revert your commits on sight, but i hope you're sure what you're doing.
20120126 20:21:26< Crab____> Aethaeryn: then, anyone would be able to download your 'test campaign' via addon server
20120126 20:21:28< Aethaeryn> Crab____: yeah
20120126 20:21:52< Crab____> Aethaeryn: and you'd be able to just do the simplest thing that would work (split each scenario into 3, mess with next_scenario)
20120126 20:22:28< Aethaeryn> Crab____: Actually I think the simplest thing would be to define macros
20120126 20:22:35< Aethaeryn> {SIDE_2_HARD_GOLD_AND_RECRUITS}
20120126 20:22:49< Aethaeryn> then #ifdef DYNAMIC calls one of those macros based on the return value of our function
20120126 20:23:06< Crab____> even better, screw the macros
20120126 20:23:24< Crab____> s/macros/defines
20120126 20:23:31< Crab____> make a helper macro which checks a WML variable instead of checking #ifdef
20120126 20:23:38< Crab____> then, just set a WML var with 'current_difficulty'
20120126 20:23:52< Aethaeryn> ah
20120126 20:23:58< Crab____> and instead of having {GOLD 100 200 300}, have {GOLD_VAR 100 200 300}
20120126 20:24:38< Crab____> the first uses #ifdef, the second will check the variable. slightly slower to run, but doesn't matter here.
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20120126 20:29:48< Aethaeryn> Crab____: Can we get back some of the performance by doing it in a WML tag defined in Lua instead of a macro?
20120126 20:29:59-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120126 20:30:19< Aethaeryn> [gold_difficulty]\n hard = 100\n medium = 200\n easy = 300\n[/gold_difficulty]
20120126 20:30:37< Aethaeryn> Or does [side] not work like that?
20120126 20:30:58< Aethaeryn> hmm, if only the engine were more powerful :-P
20120126 20:31:29< Crab____> Aethaeryn: I would not care about performance there :0
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20120126 20:32:19< Aethaeryn> Okay
20120126 20:32:54< Crab____> in 1.10, there's a good chance that the 'select next scenario' system would be streamlined to the point where it would be trivial to change difficulty mid-campaign
20120126 20:33:07< Crab____> but, for now, it's more important to see if that makes sense
20120126 20:33:20< Crab____> (I have to go, bye)
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20120126 20:41:59< fendrin> hello
20120126 20:42:08< shadowm> Ivanovic: will you post the 1.10.0 announcement (and subsequent releases') in the moderators forum so we ca edit it before it becomes public?
20120126 20:42:31< Ivanovic> yes
20120126 20:43:26< Ivanovic> i plan to do so tomorrow
20120126 20:48:07< shadowm> okay
20120126 20:54:07< Aethaeryn> Okay, I coded up a quick function in Lua based on what was discussed here and assuming that the LuaWML documentation on the wiki works exactly like I expect
20120126 20:54:12< Aethaeryn> Which means it probably doesn't actually run yet :-P
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20120126 21:09:50< Aethaeryn> and... it doesn't work, but fails silently so I'll have to debug it after class
20120126 21:10:23< shadowm> Is there any particular reason you have to tell us this?
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20120126 21:12:58< Aethaeryn> shadowm: well, I probably should tell crab
20120126 21:16:13< CIA-59> ivanovic * r52774 /trunk/ (15 files in 4 dirs): updated Italian translation
20120126 21:17:12< CIA-59> ivanovic * r52775 /website/start/1.10/ (18 files in 2 dirs): 
20120126 21:17:12< CIA-59> updated Italian announcement translation
20120126 21:17:13< CIA-59> added missing html page for the Czech translation
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20120126 21:31:40< anonymissimus> all: re the balancing discussion and changing difficulty mid-campaign...it CABD by editing a start-of-scenario savefile, since that doesn't contain the #idef HARD etc results
20120126 21:32:43< noy> fendrin: is the only suggestion you are making is that recall costs can be changed by a slider?
20120126 21:32:49< shadowm> In the generic case, anyway. It's perfectly possible to make certain scenarios available only in some difficulty levels.
20120126 21:32:50< anonymissimus> so the could be an UI dialog allowing to set the difficulty to some of the other available values in case a start-of-scenario save is loaded
20120126 21:33:19< shadowm> So e.g. a user could be in a hard-level only scenario and accomplish nothing by changing difficulty to easy.
20120126 21:33:33 * anonymissimus actually changed difficulty mid-campaign this way in a certain playthrough suffessfully
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20120126 22:17:39< anonymissimus> fendrin: you should have made that "trying to recall unti failed!" message more useful at least, it just spams stderr messages for probably no good reason
20120126 22:18:55< anonymissimus> since it's common to try to recall units which don't exist but perhaps do since they have been killed, or do not yet exists in that early scenario which uses a common macro to recall loyal units by id for instance
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20120126 23:47:29< fendrin> noy: No, but that could also be implemented if the MP devs wish to have it. My proposal is a recruit_cost= tag for campaign developers that defaults to the current behavior. 
20120126 23:47:50< fendrin> noy: Sorry, s/recruit_cost/recall_cost
20120126 23:48:48< fendrin> anonymissimus: Yes, it shouldn't be an error at all. Maybe a warning or something that is only seen in debug mode or with increased log level.
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20120126 23:59:14< noy> I'd really rather it not be that...
--- Log closed Fri Jan 27 00:00:18 2012