--- Log opened Wed Jan 11 00:00:09 2012
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20120111 02:03:27<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12824 /trunk/After_the_Storm/episode2/maps/11_A_Final_Confrontation.map: AtS E2S11: initial map
20120111 02:03:49<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12825 /trunk/After_the_Storm/episode2/maps/12_Fate.map: AtS E2S12: map tweaks
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--- Log opened Wed Jan 11 04:03:28 2012
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20120111 04:03:51-!- Topic for #wesnoth-umc-dev: Wesnoth-UMC-Dev Project discussion and support channel | http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net | Staff: AI0867, Espreon | Blog: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net/blog/ | IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org, http://irclogs.ai0867.net
20120111 04:03:51-!- Topic set by shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] [Sat Sep 24 21:45:44 2011]
20120111 04:03:51[Users #wesnoth-umc-dev]
20120111 04:03:51[@ChanServ  ] [ Aeth     ] [ Espreon] [ janebot    ] [ Octalot       ] 
20120111 04:03:51[+CIA-49    ] [ Aethaeryn] [ esr    ] [ lobby      ] [ shadowm       ] 
20120111 04:03:51[+shikadibot] [ AI0867   ] [ Gambit ] [ loonycyborg] [ shadowm_laptop] 
20120111 04:03:51[+wesbot    ] [ ancestral] [ iwaim  ] [ melinath   ] [ vultraz       ] 
20120111 04:03:51-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-umc-dev: Total of 20 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 3 voices, 16 normal]
20120111 04:03:51-!- Home page for #wesnoth-umc-dev: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net
20120111 04:04:07-!- Channel #wesnoth-umc-dev created Mon Mar 31 16:51:24 2008
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20120111 04:45:01<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12826 /trunk/After_the_Storm/images/units/fairies/ivyel-damaged.png: AtS: update baseframe for the Shaxthal Infiltrator
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20120111 09:41:15<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r12827 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/macros/rpg-utils.cfg: TSL: reverted part of r12799 since it makes things do a bunch of unneeded crap...
20120111 09:41:23<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r12828 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/macros/rpg-utils.cfg: TSL: fixed a check.
20120111 11:06:12<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: elvish-hunter * r12829 /trunk/Wesnoth_Lua_Pack/ (changelog wlp.html wml-tags.lua): WLP: added support for interval= key to [fade_*] tags, as requested by Espreon
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20120111 17:44:40<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12830 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/variables.cfg: NX: put all the variable macros into one file
20120111 17:51:24<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12831 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/unit_deaths.cfg: NX: mane continuous attacking dependant on certain potion
20120111 18:00:58<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12832 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/unit_deaths.cfg: NX: ran wmlindent, fixed some quote errors
20120111 18:02:08<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12833 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/ (conditional-utils.cfg sceanrio_utils.cfg): NX: remaining part of r12830
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20120111 18:24:08<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12834 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/unit_deaths.cfg: NX: made continuous attacking available if attacking gates
20120111 18:27:57<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12835 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/unit_deaths.cfg: NX: [switch] block now checks levels, not roles
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20120111 18:36:32<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12836 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/01_Awakening.cfg: NX: cases of {BOOSTED_UNIT} now {GENERIC_UNIT}
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20120111 18:55:44<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12837 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/02_Unknown_Land.cfg: NX: FINALLY gave P1S2's enemies gold and recruits
20120111 19:01:52<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12838 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/02_Unknown_Land.cfg: NX: tweaked the recruit lists a bit
20120111 19:18:34<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12839 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/01_Awakening.cfg: NX: made use of'enemies_defeated' event and tweaked spme dialog
20120111 19:18:45< vultraz> some*
20120111 19:45:52<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12840 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/02_Unknown_Land.cfg: NX: updated enemy unit list
20120111 20:12:06<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12841 /trunk/After_the_Storm/macros/abilities.cfg: AtS: add always-hits weapon special
20120111 20:12:37<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12842 /trunk/After_the_Storm/episode2/ (2 files in 2 dirs): AtS E2S11: initial sides setup
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20120111 21:20:01<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12843 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/01_Awakening.cfg: NX: fixed wrong number of args to {NAMED_LOYAL_UNIT} (forgot the id arg)
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20120111 21:53:32<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12844 /trunk/After_the_Storm/units/alien-verlissh/Matrix_Core.cfg: 
20120111 21:53:32<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: optimize animation code for the Matrix Core
20120111 21:53:32<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: There's a synchronization issue that needs to be checked later before
20120111 21:53:32<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: deciding whether to revert or not.
20120111 21:53:58<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12845 /trunk/After_the_Storm/episode2/scenarios/11_A_Final_Confrontation.cfg: AtS E2S11: more initial crap
20120111 21:55:58<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12846 /trunk/After_the_Storm/music/the_high_kings_march.ogg: 
20120111 21:55:58<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: add music track, "The High King's March" by West
20120111 21:55:58<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: [http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27572]
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20120111 22:10:44<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12847 /trunk/After_the_Storm/ (3 files in 2 dirs): AtS: ran umcpropfix
20120111 22:12:29<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12848 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/ (sceanrio_utils.cfg scenario-utils.cfg): NX: fixed typo in file name, pointed out by shadowmaster
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20120111 23:12:58< Gambit> esr: Did you see that congress gave the power to lock up American citizens in military detention forever without charging them with a crime or giving them a trial? Scary stuff.
20120111 23:13:10< Gambit> And he, of course, signed it into law.
20120111 23:13:21< Gambit> *gave the president the power
20120111 23:14:03< esr> Gambit: Hope and change!
20120111 23:14:11< Gambit> Heh
20120111 23:14:26< Gambit> Oh but it's okay because he promises not to use it!
20120111 23:14:28 * Gambit rolls eyes
20120111 23:14:48< Gambit> Even if that's true, it's only a matter of time before some other president does.
20120111 23:17:12< Gambit> I love it, because now all the crazy people who said stuff about how he was going to ruin the country and have secret police and he's like Hitler and so on: He made them correct!
20120111 23:19:12< Aethaeryn> esr: but if Ron Paul gets elected, he'll bring real change, right?
20120111 23:19:28< Aethaeryn> esr: Or is there reason to be pessimistic?
20120111 23:20:24< esr> Aethaeryn: Sadly, Ron Paul is a foaming loonytune.  The *sane* libertarian in the race is Gary Johnson, who the media has of course blacked out. 
20120111 23:20:54< Aethaeryn> Isn't Ron Paul better than nothing, though?
20120111 23:21:00< Aethaeryn> 20% in NH... that's not bad
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20120111 23:22:23< Aethaeryn> I don't think it'll last, but according to Wikipedia he's currently in second: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_presidential_primaries,_2012
20120111 23:22:28< esr> Ron Paul thinks 9/11 was a U.S. government inside job and Israel should be thrown to the <s>dogs</s> Palestinians.  And his newsletters were full of vile racist slurs.  Need I go on?
20120111 23:23:04< Aethaeryn> The US should continue to interfere with Israel?
20120111 23:23:11< Aethaeryn> Doesn't seem very libertarian to me.
20120111 23:24:31< esr> If by "interfere" you mean "ship them lots of weaopns so they can survive as an outpost of civilization amidst howling barbarians", than yes, I think we should continue interfering.
20120111 23:24:55< Aethaeryn> But that seems to admit a role of government.
20120111 23:25:16< Aethaeryn> You're saying the government ought to tax Americans to buy weapons and transport them.
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20120111 23:25:40< Gambit> Well this conversation has taken an interesting turn.
20120111 23:26:00< Gambit> Aethaeryn: Of course. We never want peace in that region :P
20120111 23:26:04< Gambit> World War III has to start there
20120111 23:26:10< Gambit> So that Jesus can return
20120111 23:26:20< Aethaeryn> Gambit: That's not my point.
20120111 23:26:42< Aethaeryn> Gambit: My point is it doesn't seem right for an anarchist to say the government has a necessary role doing something.
20120111 23:27:07< Gambit> No it's my satire of the point most people in this country has that esr surprisingly seems to agree with.
20120111 23:28:12< esr> I'd like to live in a world where we have better instruments of self-defense against other governments than the government of the U.S. I think we will someday, and soon enigh that I might live to see it.  But we don't live in that kind of workd *yet*.
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20120111 23:28:20< Gambit> Just keep supporting Israel blindly as they refuse to go to discuss things peacefully and gobble up more and more land illegally.
20120111 23:28:45< Aethaeryn> esr: Right, but could something like Israel exist in an ancap world?
20120111 23:30:42< esr> I think the Israelis would be willing to make the kind of peace you're thinking of if there were a fit negotiating partner on the other side, but there never has been.  So they cynically go through the motions of pretending to make peace, and much of thr rest of the world pretends to believe them.
20120111 23:31:43< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Well, there is a concept of land as a buffer for defensive purposes.
20120111 23:32:10< Gambit> The Palestinians attempted to due exactly what Israel did to become a state and get some recognition at the UN, but the US stood in their way.
20120111 23:32:15< Aethaeryn> The Czechs would've been better off had they kept the German-speaking Sudetenland
20120111 23:32:21< esr> *We* can afford the delusion that the Arabs and Palestinians can be negotiated with as though they were rational actors running a Westphalian nation-state.  The Israelis have to be more realistic.
20120111 23:32:40< Gambit> Aethaeryn: Yeah but they're stuffing the land with civilians and houses.
20120111 23:32:54< Gambit> So that theory is out the window.
20120111 23:32:58< Aethaeryn> Gambit: I'm not quite sure you understand Islamic political philosophy because you never lived in that region of the world.
20120111 23:33:14< Gambit> s/due/do/
20120111 23:33:31< Aethaeryn> Gambit: To them, any country that has been conquered by the Mulsims at one point or another is theirs forever.
20120111 23:33:51< esr> Aetheryn is correct.  
20120111 23:33:57< Aethaeryn> The people who genuinely are religious in that region don't want to coexist with Israel, they want full political dominance over it.
20120111 23:34:33< Aethaeryn> Unlike Christianity, Islam is a religion where politics is an integral part of the core doctrine.
20120111 23:34:45< esr> Dominance?  They don't want dominance. They want *genocide*.  To drive every Jew into the sea.
20120111 23:34:58< Gambit> The same can be said for the extreme Christian fundamentalist Israeli government
20120111 23:35:17< Gambit> The regular citizens of these two places don't think that way according to polls
20120111 23:35:23< esr> "Christian fundamentalist Israeli government"? In what universe?
20120111 23:35:27< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Think, though, about all the Christian religious right who want a theocracy. Now imagine that the New Testament advocated and outlined specifically how the theocracy ought to work.
20120111 23:35:29< Gambit> Err
20120111 23:35:34< Gambit> Orthodox Jewish
20120111 23:35:38< Gambit> Whoops haha
20120111 23:35:46< Aethaeryn> With Christianty, theocracy came hundreds of years later, so it isn't part of the core doctrine that all Christians believe.
20120111 23:35:53< Aethaeryn> With Islam, it was there from the beginning.
20120111 23:36:15< Aethaeryn> It's more like pre-synagogue Judaism in that sense.
20120111 23:36:40<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12849 /trunk/After_the_Storm/lua/After_the_Storm.lua: AtS: [unserialize_and_activate_sides] should restore the original .hidden value, not force .hidden=false
20120111 23:37:04< Aethaeryn> Gambit: The difficulty with an Israeli-Palestinian peace is that there are Palestinians who will gladly accept peace if the Israelis accept dominance under an Islamic government and pay the unbeliever's tax.
20120111 23:37:11< Aethaeryn> Not all think that way.
20120111 23:37:16< Aethaeryn> But that is an element that complicates things.
20120111 23:37:18< Gambit> I get so used to saying Muslim or Christian when referring to all these fundamentalist religious freaks who runs the governments of the world...
20120111 23:37:21< Aethaeryn> Just like not all fundies want theocracy.
20120111 23:38:07-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20120111 23:38:24< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Israel isn't under a fundamentalist government. They're rather secular, actually, afaik.
20120111 23:38:43< Aethaeryn> Modern Jewishness is more of an ethnic than a religious thing.
20120111 23:39:06< loonycyborg> Israel deserves support because those arabs bordering it are goddamn morons. They even failed to defeat it by joining forces, iirc several times even..
20120111 23:40:01< Aethaeryn> I wouldn't call them morons just because they suck at modern military tactics.
20120111 23:40:10< Aethaeryn> There's more to modern life than war. :o
20120111 23:40:37< loonycyborg> As much as they suck at tactics they excel at infighting :P
20120111 23:40:52< Aethaeryn> It's just that Israel/Palestine is a very complicated thing because both have philosophies that basically are against compromise.
20120111 23:40:57< Gambit> esr: In the end though, why should the American tax payer care at all?
20120111 23:41:44< Gambit> Especially given this debt that's supposedly the most important issue in the world.
20120111 23:42:11< esr> Because it keeps a bunch of barbarians occupied far away from the U.S.  When they're trying to kill Israelis they're not trying to kill *us*.
20120111 23:42:33< Aethaeryn> Sounds rather neocon to me.
20120111 23:42:45< esr> ?
20120111 23:42:49< Gambit> Oh right. They'll invade the US.
20120111 23:42:57< Aethaeryn> "Fight them there so they don't fight us here."
20120111 23:43:02< Aethaeryn> That's very neocon.
20120111 23:43:15< Aethaeryn> As in, basically defined by Bush and co.
20120111 23:43:20< esr> Is it?  I don't keep track of such labels.
20120111 23:43:34< Gambit> I didn't mean to start this. I just wanted to have some sad laughs at the further shredding of our constitutional rights.
20120111 23:43:50< Aethaeryn> Anyway, it seems to be used as a justification for an expansion of government and a loss of rights, as well as massive war spending.
20120111 23:44:20< Aethaeryn> Even if it doesn't logically necessitate this stuff.
20120111 23:44:44< esr> There are sillier things we should vut first.  Like, say, agricultural subsidies.
20120111 23:44:50< Gambit> esr: Because aiding the people who won't let them become a state and keep gobbling up their land will make "the barbarians" love us, yeah?
20120111 23:44:54< esr> s/vut/cut/
20120111 23:45:24< esr> Gambit: They'll never love us, so that doesn't matter much.
20120111 23:45:30< Gambit> I don't understand why "the barbarians" would come attack us assuming they could get disentangled from the mess with Israel.
20120111 23:45:35< Aethaeryn> The problem is that defense is the big thing. Almost everything else is tiny by comparison
20120111 23:45:49< esr> Because we're in the Dar al-Harb.
20120111 23:45:58< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Well, some of them will want to, anyway.
20120111 23:46:01< Gambit> Don't tell me they hate us for our freedoms. Germany is a lot closer.
20120111 23:46:23< esr> Aethaeryn: That's not true.  entitlement programs and debt are much larger.
20120111 23:46:33< Aethaeryn> Gambit: If you know Mediterranean history from about 600 AD to present, you'll know that traditional Islamic politics basically means conquer everyone else.
20120111 23:46:45< Gambit> Useless tax cuts that haven't created a single job are the same size.
20120111 23:46:59< esr> The Dar al-Harb.  The House of War.  Anything that isn't the Dar al-Islam.
20120111 23:47:14< Aethaeryn> Gambit: It's not like most Muslims want to or are capable of conquering the world today, though.
20120111 23:47:22< Gambit> Aethaeryn: Yeah but why start so far from home against such a big enemy?
20120111 23:47:27< Gambit> And yeah that of course.
20120111 23:47:37< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Technically speaking, we'd be the only enemy.
20120111 23:47:50< Aethaeryn> Without the US propping up NATO, most of the world is defenseless.
20120111 23:47:57< Aethaeryn> Europe doesn't do much with NATO anymore :-P
20120111 23:48:27< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Though again, this is only really relevant to those stuck in the eighth century.
20120111 23:48:39< Aethaeryn> It's unfortunate that there actually are some people who are.
20120111 23:48:45< esr> Conventional warfare isn't the near-term threat.  Nuclear/chemical/biological terrorism is the near-term threat.
20120111 23:50:20< esr> Israel is the tripwire.  If and when they nuke Tel Aviv we'll have time to repond before they slag a city in the U.S.
20120111 23:50:40< Aethaeryn> esr: And how do you stop terrorism without massive government programs? I don't see any private counterterrorism or defense agencies.
20120111 23:50:49< esr> And *that's* whuy money to keep the Israelis fighting is worth it.
20120111 23:51:10< Gambit> Aethaeryn: So we take away all the medicine and wheelchairs and send that money to Israel apparently.
20120111 23:51:22< Gambit> And tax cuts of course.
20120111 23:51:39< Aethaeryn> Gambit: No, we don't take away anything. We pretend to cut spending, but we really just cut proposed future spending increases.
20120111 23:51:51< Aethaeryn> The government gives money to everyone except me. :-(
20120111 23:52:04< esr> Aethaeryn: I know some theoretical answers to that question but none that atre practical this year.
20120111 23:54:43< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Damn it, Pete managed to get just enough people to join the Federation forums to outnumber me.
20120111 23:55:13< Aethaeryn> Gambit: We need to stop pirate scum from overrunning the game when it launches. My empire is apparently the only way.
20120111 23:55:50< loonycyborg> I don't think that terrorism is in any way workable long term strategy for anyone..
20120111 23:56:10< Aethaeryn> esr: But is it worth it? You're going to give up far too much power with the short term fixes that make any long run ones impossible.
20120111 23:56:12< Gambit> If he is the larger federation... doesn't that make you the rebel scum?
20120111 23:56:26< Aethaeryn> Gambit: well, it's just five people.
20120111 23:57:00< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Pete just doesn't understand programming enough so he's doing his recruiting now rather then when it's ready
20120111 23:57:10< Aethaeryn> Thinking that I could in five minutes get everything working
20120111 23:57:11< Aethaeryn> :-P
20120111 23:57:29< esr> Aethaeryn: I'm as libertarian as anybody, but I have to deal with the world as it is.
20120111 23:57:48< Aethaeryn> esr: Maybe it's a no win scenario, then.
20120111 23:58:36< esr> We have to do the leat bad thing and hope we can pick up the pieces later.  It's often like that.
20120111 23:58:39< Aethaeryn> Maybe the only place where politics will ever make sense is in a fictional space world in a browser game. <_<
20120111 23:58:42< Aethaeryn> >_>
20120111 23:59:53< esr> loonycyborg: Of course terrorism isn't a "workable long term strategy for anyone".  Now stop thinking like a sane person; you'll never undetstand terrorisys while you're doing *that*,
--- Log closed Thu Jan 12 00:00:31 2012