--- Log opened Thu Jan 12 00:00:31 2012
20120112 00:00:54< esr> What we're dealing with is essential delusional pdychopathology on a cultural scale.  It's called "religion".
20120112 00:01:13< Gambit> Yeah terrorists are stupid and crazy. But I think it's also stupid and crazy to think they're the majority anywhere.
20120112 00:01:38< loonycyborg> The point is that they're a small scale threat that doesn't warrant astronomical spending or erosion of liberties.
20120112 00:01:40< Aethaeryn> Gambit: do they need to be a majority to cause damage?
20120112 00:01:45< Gambit> You can't have a war against terrorism. They're criminals. You have to treat them like that.
20120112 00:02:06< esr> Gambit: They don't have to be when the culture they're embedded in is insane.  (Or religious...much the same thing.)
20120112 00:03:56< loonycyborg> You can use religion to justify pretty much anything, but oftentimes something that apparently looks like a crusade or jihad is rooted in practical considerations.
20120112 00:03:59< Gambit> You investigate them and arrest them like drug dealers. You don't drive tanks through cities and accidentally kill civilians.
20120112 00:04:13< Aethaeryn> esr: How many civilizations have existed without any religion at all?
20120112 00:05:37< esr> Aethaeryn: Not al religions are insane, jusdt most of the ones you know about. Theravada Buddhism is pretty safe, for example.
20120112 00:06:50< esr> It's a definitional question whether they should be considered "religious".  No faith, no eschatology.
20120112 00:07:23< esr> But the Abrahamic religions, the near-Eastern monotheisms, are *all* insane.
20120112 00:07:50< esr> You can tell by the body count, if nothing else.
20120112 00:10:29< esr> Gambit: Drug dealers don't have a covert nuclear-weapons program.
20120112 00:10:43< Gambit> Really if you have any set of thoughts that mandate their subscribers to convince everyone else in the world to believe in them to - that's where you run into trouble.
20120112 00:10:59< esr> Neaither "war" no "crime" is a sufficient category here.
20120112 00:11:15< Gambit> esr: Of course you still need the military for the "arresting" part.
20120112 00:11:23< esr> Sorry. "Neither war nor crime".
20120112 00:11:26< Gambit> I just mean that we're going about this on way too large a scale.
20120112 00:11:44< Gambit> You can't wage war against 30 guys.
20120112 00:11:44< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Depends on what you mean by convince.
20120112 00:11:58< Aethaeryn> Gambit: "Convince" by violence or force is what causes the trouble.
20120112 00:11:59< Gambit> Aethaeryn: Sometimes they mandate that you convince people forcibly or kill them
20120112 00:12:41< Aethaeryn> Gambit: example?
20120112 00:12:47< Gambit> But annoying your neighbors constantly is pretty crazy too (Jehovah's Witnesses)
20120112 00:12:57< esr> But if they're operating in the territory of a failed state, you're "police" response is not going to be objectively distinguishable from warfare. 
20120112 00:13:03< esr> Aaargh.
20120112 00:13:26< esr> I'm too literate to spew apostrophes :-)
20120112 00:13:37< Gambit> I keep messing up homophones tonight too.
20120112 00:14:02< Aethaeryn> The more I focus on my programming, the higher my typo ratio goes up.
20120112 00:14:08< Gambit> Aethaeryn: Any type of mandated convincing is bad.
20120112 00:14:13< Aethaeryn> I guessd I'm just too distracted to write IRC lines perfectly.
20120112 00:14:31< Aethaeryn> Gambit: The law mandated convinces you that murder is something you shouldn't do.
20120112 00:14:35< Aethaeryn> Gambit: You don't have a choice.
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20120112 00:15:08< Gambit> Oh I forgot my disclaimer about thoughts having some logical or mathematic basis.
20120112 00:15:31< Aethaeryn> Gambit: AI programmers tried that.
20120112 00:15:37< Aethaeryn> Couldn't reproduce.
20120112 00:15:48< Gambit> OTOH I suppose if you believe your neighbors will burn forever if they don't believe in your sky man, it's only logical you try to convince them.
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20120112 00:18:36< Gambit> I'm glad that my religion tells me to not give a shit about the mythologies other people subscribe to.
20120112 00:19:44< Gambit> esr: So we need to spend more on spies and less on bombs
20120112 00:20:38< Gambit> And hell: assassins
20120112 00:20:47< esr> Gambit: Assassins would be preferable to bombs. Better targeting, less collayeral damage. 
20120112 00:21:30< Gambit> The way we got Bin Laden was awesome
20120112 00:22:05< Gambit> As long as we keep things legal
20120112 00:22:19< esr> Which is part of the reason the "treat it like crime" position is bullshit.  You don't sdend assasins after drug dealers.  Different tools.
20120112 00:23:10< Gambit> More powerful tools.
20120112 00:23:22< Gambit> You prove they're guilty and then you take them or kill them.
20120112 00:23:40< Gambit> It also keeps us on the moral high ground
20120112 00:23:40< esr> And if I were running a nation-state, "right: is what minimizes casualties. "Legal", outside mt borders, can go fuck itself.
20120112 00:24:40< esr> I'll take minimizing the casualties over the largeluy illusory "moral high ground" every time.
20120112 00:26:27< esr> If it takes "illegal" to keep a backpack nuke from going off in a U.S. city, I'm all for illegal.
20120112 00:27:46< esr> All this talk of "crime", "legality", and "moral high ground" takes place in a fantasy universe, among people who aren't responsible for actual consequences.
20120112 00:29:07< esr> I think it functions mainly to offer the illusion of order.
20120112 00:32:32< Aethaeryn> Gambit: (1) Pirates are terrorists who wish to end peace and threaten trade. (2) Terrorism is wrong. (3) Terrorists must be taken out before they disrupt things. (4) Umbra is a pirate empire. (5) We should have federations ally to take out the pirate-terrorist threat.
20120112 00:32:51< Aethaeryn> Gambit: I think that's what I learned from this convo.
20120112 00:33:44 * shadowm learned (6)
20120112 00:33:46< Gambit> Aethaeryn: I just... find it really hard to care about your game because I can't see anything yet
20120112 00:33:53< Gambit> I can't interact with it
20120112 00:33:57< shadowm> namely, "this is the wrong channel for any of that"
20120112 00:34:20< Aethaeryn> I was wondering when that would come up
20120112 00:34:21< Gambit> shadowm: Yeah but this is where I can poke esr about politics without disturbing the peace and sanctity of #wesnoth-dev
20120112 00:34:40< shadowm> Aethaeryn: worry not, I was watching from the very beginning.
20120112 00:34:40< Gambit> Also this channel is totally dead anyway since you started ##shadowm
20120112 00:35:07< shadowm> It's amusing to see nobodies passively discussing crap they can't change in any way whatsoever.
20120112 00:35:26< Gambit> Heh
20120112 00:35:33< Aethaeryn> #wesnoth-offtopic + ##shadowm killed #wesnoth-umc-dev 
20120112 00:35:50< Aethaeryn> It's just a glorified RSS feed these days, with the SVN stuff
20120112 00:36:07< Gambit> We really should get rid of #wesnoth-offtopic and go back to using #wesnoth for chatter
20120112 00:36:07< shadowm> and that's a good thing, because I can do whatever I want without answering to anyone in ##shadowm
20120112 00:36:41< shadowm> Gambit: just say it and I can pull the plug
20120112 00:36:46< shadowm> cut the juice supply
20120112 00:36:50< shadowm> terminate the process
20120112 00:37:05< Gambit> Yeah but would you also allow crazy chatter in #wesnoth again?
20120112 00:37:15< shadowm> it's not up to me
20120112 00:37:24< Aethaeryn> Gambit: well, #wesnoth gets random clueless n00bs wanting to talk about the game or with wesnoth issues
20120112 00:37:30< Gambit> shadowm: That's... bullshit
20120112 00:37:34< Aethaeryn> Off topic chatting discourages them form coming forward
20120112 00:37:37< shadowm> I couldn't care less about #wesnoth* nowadays.
20120112 00:37:43< Gambit> You're the only who made the decision in the first place
20120112 00:38:01< Gambit> We used to have such random amusing conversations in #wesnoth
20120112 00:38:05< Aethaeryn> It's been killing #wesnoth*
20120112 00:38:10< shadowm> Where you were proving your worth as a troll, yes
20120112 00:38:22< Aethaeryn> Not everyone who wants to have good convos are in #wesnoth-offtopic or ##shadowm 
20120112 00:38:25< Aethaeryn> e.g. esr
20120112 00:38:28< Gambit> s/only/one/
20120112 00:38:32< Gambit> Wow why can't I type?
20120112 00:38:37< shadowm> Aethaeryn: esr isn't in #wesnoth either and has never wanted to be there
20120112 00:38:50< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20120112 00:38:59< shadowm> so your argument is invalid
20120112 00:39:05< Aethaeryn> In the old days, though, we could be off-topic here unless someone wanted to talk UMC
20120112 00:39:06< shadowm> my hair is a pony
20120112 00:39:21< Aethaeryn> After you added additional restrictions, this channel slowly died
20120112 00:39:26< Aethaeryn> And now it's just CIA reporting SVN stuff
20120112 00:39:41< Gambit> This used to be the place where forum moderation was discussed as well
20120112 00:39:43< shadowm> I already said Wesnoth-UMC-Dev as  whole should go the way of the dodo.
20120112 00:39:47< shadowm> not just the channel.
20120112 00:39:52< shadowm> *a whole
20120112 00:39:53< Gambit> I actually don't care about restoring this channel
20120112 00:40:01< Gambit> But I feel like saving #wesnoth is a good idea
20120112 00:40:06< Aethaeryn> shadowm: Well, yeah, I'm probably going to switch to git in 1.11
20120112 00:40:13< shadowm> #wesnoth doesn't need to be saved
20120112 00:41:46< Aethaeryn> shadowm: You did kill this chan by trying to get people to switch to #wesnoth-offtopic though and keep this strictly on topic. There's not enough strictly on topic to keep it alive.
20120112 00:42:03< Aethaeryn> Some of the best channels I've been on in IRC weren't fitting their named role all the time (or even most of the time)
20120112 00:42:06< esr> Um, I've been working on svn-to-git conversion.  I hacve the most capable converter there is already, though it's not released yet.
20120112 00:42:14< shadowm> Aethaeryn: don't be dumb
20120112 00:42:35< esr> Handles fyll Suversion branching, even mixed commits.
20120112 00:42:43< shadowm> I didn't intentionally kill this channel, but besides off-topic crap, the other commonly discussed topics moved to ##shadowm where they should have been in the first place
20120112 00:42:49< shadowm> that is, IftU, AtS and TSL
20120112 00:43:00< shadowm> also my awesome persona
20120112 00:43:07< Aethaeryn> esr: Yes, but how do I just get out my stuff from wesnoth-umc-dev?
20120112 00:43:11< shadowm> and then I simply left the administration
20120112 00:43:14< Aethaeryn> I only have about 5 out of maybe 20-30 in trunk.
20120112 00:43:25< Aethaeryn> Tbh, I was willing to give up revision history.
20120112 00:44:03< shadowm> Aethaeryn: git-svn can already do that
20120112 00:44:15< esr> Aethaeryn: Rip the whole repo, then use reposurgeon to dissect out the history for the subtree you want..  It's easy.
20120112 00:44:16< shadowm> I've been using git-svn to work on IftU and AtS and mainline since 2008
20120112 00:44:36< Aethaeryn> shadowm: I'm done with wesnoth-umc-dev, though, I think. SVN just... sucks.
20120112 00:45:02< shadowm> I agree, but I'm not done yet 
20120112 00:45:36< Aethaeryn> Eh, if I have to I'll push stables to wesnoth-umc-dev
20120112 00:45:45< Aethaeryn> But I definitely prefer working in git.
20120112 00:47:20< Aethaeryn> And since anyone who I have ever collaborated with on UMC has always given up before me, if I'm just going to work with myself, I might as well use the rcs I prefer.
20120112 00:47:42< shadowm> I don't have such an argument in my case.
20120112 00:47:55< shadowm> I work with vultraz and Espreon, of whom only Espreon can use Git.
20120112 00:48:33< Aethaeryn> The only people I can conceive of helping me are people already using git (e.g. Espreon)
20120112 00:50:18< Aethaeryn> shadowm: Why can't vultraz use git?
20120112 00:51:27< shadowm> I don't know, do I look like vultraz?
20120112 00:53:37< Gambit> It's a very specific disability.
20120112 00:53:53< Gambit> shadowm: Dixie?
20120112 00:54:11< Gambit> Man I shouldn't have to play this guessing game
20120112 00:54:41< Gambit> Whoops
20120112 00:54:43< Gambit> Wrong channel
20120112 00:54:45< Gambit> Ha
20120112 00:54:58< Gambit> I'm glad that's all I said.
20120112 00:55:14< Gambit> Clearly I need to get off of IRC and go do something that actually matters.
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20120112 02:17:30<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12850 /trunk/After_the_Storm/episode2/ (3 files in 2 dirs): AtS E2S11: more progress
20120112 02:18:28<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12851 /trunk/After_the_Storm/ (4 files in 3 dirs): AtS: add resources and WML for the Control Spire unit type
20120112 02:18:50<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r12852 /trunk/After_the_Storm/ (.gitignore _server.ign): AtS: add *.kate-swp files to gitignore and _server.ign
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20120112 04:47:43<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r12853 /trunk/Invasion_from_the_Unknown/scenarios/ (01_Border_Patrol.cfg 14_Bye_and_Behold.cfg): IftU: improved the first-time help selector's message.
20120112 04:53:22<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r12854 /trunk/Invasion_from_the_Unknown/macros/first-time-help.cfg: IftU: 'Character description' -> 'Character Description'.
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20120112 07:12:26<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r12855 /trunk/Tales_of_the_Setting_Sun/ (4 files in 2 dirs): shields code, still needs work
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20120112 09:42:40<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r12856 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/scenario-utils.cfg: NX: added {ENDLEVEL_CONTINUE} and {ENDLEVEL_QUIET} from AtS
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20120112 19:58:44<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r12858 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/macros/first-time-help.cfg: Ported r12853 to TSL.
20120112 19:58:51<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r12859 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/macros/rpg-utils.cfg: TSL: we don't neet [set_variable] for the 'shove in recall list' step...
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20120112 20:41:40<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: anonymissimus * r12860 /trunk/Wesnoth_Lua_Pack/gui-tags.lua: (log message trimmed)
20120112 20:41:40<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: WLP: allow unit debug dialog to increase over max_hitpoints
20120112 20:41:40<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: I find it way more useful this way. The maximum allowed values for
20120112 20:41:40<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: hitpoints, experience, moves and attacks_left is now
20120112 20:41:40<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: a factor using factor * max_value.
20120112 20:41:41<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: Perhaps a slider is not the best widget though, maybe simply put
20120112 20:41:42<+CIA-49> wesnoth-umc-dev: a box there to enter a numerical value. With current and max values
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--- Log closed Fri Jan 13 00:00:31 2012