--- Log opened Wed Jan 25 00:00:03 2012
--- Day changed Wed Jan 25 2012
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20120125 00:01:03< Aethaeryn> I write my code to be copied
20120125 00:01:15< Aethaeryn> The highest level part of it has to be human readable.
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20120125 00:08:59<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: aethaeryn * r13074 /trunk/Master_of_Dungeons/lua/units.lua: Making the unit list very human readable.
20120125 00:09:20< Aethaeryn> Espreon: Can you understand all of this? http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev/trunk/Master_of_Dungeons/lua/units.lua?revision=13074&view=markup
20120125 00:10:17< Aethaeryn> Espreon: I intend that document to be at a very high level... As in, all you need to know is what units are in Wesnoth and you should be able to customize MoD to your own needs without ever touching "real" Lua
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20120125 00:13:34< Aethaeryn> Espreon: MoD for other eras should be as simple as replacing that file.
20120125 00:20:01< Espreon> Aethaeryn: OK.
20120125 00:22:00< Aethaeryn> Espreon: it works?
20120125 00:22:28< Espreon> No, that was an "IDRGAF OK".
20120125 00:22:35< Espreon> *F" "OK"
20120125 00:22:48< Espreon> Well, maybe lighten it a bit...
20120125 00:23:13< Espreon> OK fine, I care.
20120125 00:23:19< Espreon> Lemme look into this.
20120125 00:24:09< Aethaeryn> So I can, if eras announce their presence, use their units
20120125 00:24:28< Espreon> Hmm, good job at making it high-level.
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20120125 00:26:07< Aethaeryn> Espreon: There's actually three levels.
20120125 00:26:43< Aethaeryn> The level that interacts with the API directly is object-oriented, and rather complex. Then the middle layer is mostly functional and fairly readable. Then top layer is braindead easy to edit as long as you don't break the {"foo", "bar"}, form
20120125 00:27:14< Espreon> Well, yeah.
20120125 00:27:15< Aethaeryn> As it approaches 2.0 it'll be clearer
20120125 00:27:25< Aethaeryn> 1.0 is mostly about getting the damn thing to run
20120125 00:28:15< Aethaeryn> Which basically means sticking to default :-P
20120125 00:28:47< Aethaeryn> Well, I couldn't find anything broken in my limited tests
20120125 00:29:51< Aethaeryn> Gambit: So do you know a good way to associate a hex with an inventory?
20120125 00:29:58< Aethaeryn> Units can store variables natively.
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20120125 00:30:23< Gambit> $inventory_x_y
20120125 00:30:34< Gambit> Though how "good" that is is arguable
20120125 00:30:48< Gambit> It provides the easiest access
20120125 00:31:11< Gambit> inventory_$x1_$y1
20120125 00:31:33< Aethaeryn> Gambit: well, this is all in Lua
20120125 00:31:36< Aethaeryn> So I can just make a table
20120125 00:31:51< Aethaeryn> I just don't want to reinvent the wheel when not necessary
20120125 00:32:26< Gambit> So this question is for like chests and things?
20120125 00:32:43< Gambit> You have an inventory object that can be associated with units or with locations?
20120125 00:35:03< Aethaeryn> chests, dead unit drops, and shops
20120125 00:35:07< Aethaeryn> That's what I need to code next.
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20120125 00:44:24<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: aethaeryn * r13075 /trunk/Master_of_Dungeons/ (maps/battle.map maps/hide_and_seek.map todo): MoDifying the recently imported maps so that the player starting locations are MoD-friendly.
20120125 00:45:26< vultraz> XD
20120125 00:45:29< vultraz> good one
20120125 01:14:01<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: aethaeryn * r13076 /trunk/Master_of_Dungeons/ (maps/intro.map maps/intro2.map todo): Making two transition small maps for safe shopping and breaks between scenarios.
20120125 01:17:00< Aethaeryn> vultraz: Very observant.
20120125 01:17:16<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13077 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/scenario-utils.cfg: NX: added {DIFF} from AtS
20120125 01:17:46< Aethaeryn> Gambit: disable recruit lists... is there a trivial mainline way?
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20120125 01:20:50<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13078 /trunk/NX-RPG/_main.cfg: NX: bump required version to 1.10.0, even though it's not strictly necessary
20120125 01:21:19< Aethaeryn> vultraz: what about the late 1.9s? I'm still on 1.9.14
20120125 01:21:42< vultraz> Aethaeryn: it'll still work
20120125 01:21:50< vultraz> on those.
20120125 01:22:12< vultraz> but 1.10's announcing in a few days, so...
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20120125 01:23:52<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13079 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/02_Unknown_Land.cfg: NX: redid P1S2's spawner code to behaves like it should
20120125 01:23:53< Aethaeryn> 1.9.14 uses the 1.10 MP 
20120125 01:26:02< Gambit> Aethaeryn: I think there's a [set_recruit]
20120125 01:26:16< Aethaeryn> Gambit: [set_recruit][/set_recruit] then?
20120125 01:26:29< Gambit> needs a SSF
20120125 01:26:43< Gambit> oh or not
20120125 01:26:45< Gambit> needs a side=
20120125 01:26:58< Gambit> shit it has no way to do all sides
20120125 01:27:00< Gambit> I missed one :(
20120125 01:27:21< Gambit> [set_recruit]
20120125 01:27:27< Gambit> side = 1,2,3,4,5
20120125 01:27:32< Gambit> recruit = ""
20120125 01:27:35< Gambit> [/set_recruit]
20120125 01:30:35<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13080 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/02_Unknown_Land.cfg: NX: added missing closing tags, ran wmlindent
20120125 01:31:21< Aethaeryn> Gambit: yes, that works thanks
20120125 01:32:44< Aethaeryn> Gambit: is there a way to change maps (i.e. go to the next "scenario" without having to define a scenario for each map?)
20120125 01:33:04<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13081 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/02_Unknown_Land.cfg: NX: fixed two more errors
20120125 01:33:08< Aethaeryn> Perhaps even staying in the same scenario, but resetting all units, moving leaders to their new starting positions, etc.
20120125 01:33:15< Gambit> Yes, but it requires all the maps to have the same dimensions AFAIK
20120125 01:33:24< Gambit> You would just replace the terrain…
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20120125 01:33:40< Gambit> Basically no nice way
20120125 01:33:43< Gambit> You'd have to do everything by hand
20120125 01:34:05< Aethaeryn> Sounds too hard.
20120125 01:34:10< Gambit> [end_level] allows you to turn off linger_mode, carryover_report, saving, and everything
20120125 01:34:19< Aethaeryn> How about advnacing the scenario to itself, but changing the map?
20120125 01:34:25< Aethaeryn> *advancing
20120125 01:34:34< Aethaeryn> hmm, I should ask in -dev
20120125 01:34:42< Gambit> You really should have a skeleton scenario for every map
20120125 01:34:49< Gambit> And then all the general code should be in an era
20120125 01:37:45< vultraz> what about TSL's multifloor sys
20120125 01:38:11< Aethaeryn> Different sizes is important.
20120125 01:38:16< Aethaeryn> Gambit: there is no era.
20120125 01:38:27< Aethaeryn> MoD works with any era, in theory.
20120125 01:38:33< Aethaeryn> Unless your era WML or Lua collides.
20120125 01:39:14<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13082 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/02_Unknown_Land.cfg: NX: MORE fixes...
20120125 01:40:34< Gambit> Well then sorry. Make lots of scenarios
20120125 01:41:02< Gambit> Until we get a feature for checking multiple eras
20120125 01:41:13< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20120125 01:41:16< Aethaeryn> Until then. :-/
20120125 01:41:32< Aethaeryn> MoD isn't a unit era thing.
20120125 01:41:48< Gambit> Neither is GambCiv
20120125 01:41:53< Aethaeryn> It just works with what you have to completely mod how the game is played from TBS to tabletop RPG
20120125 01:41:53< Gambit> But this is what we have to do.
20120125 01:42:44< Gambit> moving the code to an era instead of including it in multiple scenarios would also decrease MoD's impact on Wesnoth's loading time
20120125 01:42:47< Gambit> less WML to expand
20120125 01:42:59< Aethaeryn> There's a tiny bit of WML
20120125 01:43:02< Aethaeryn> and thousands of lines of Lua.
20120125 01:43:06< Aethaeryn> MoD can't really be done in WML
20120125 01:43:13< Aethaeryn> It could, but it would take forever to code and forever between turns.
20120125 01:43:24< Gambit> not sure how lua interpretation works
20120125 01:43:39< Gambit> Anonymissimus speaks as if it can be done live in the scenario
20120125 01:43:40< Aethaeryn> Well, I have to make each lua file a macro, unfortunately
20120125 01:43:42< Aethaeryn> or else download is required
20120125 01:43:51< Aethaeryn> Otherwise, yes, it's done live.
20120125 01:44:04< Aethaeryn> But the Lua's loaded once, then it functions like Lua
20120125 01:44:16< Aethaeryn> The problem is that if download is not requried...
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20120125 01:44:29< vultraz> hummm.....my scen 2 map is bothering me.......
20120125 01:44:29< vultraz> either that or the scen design.....
20120125 01:44:40< Aethaeryn> Sorry, if download is required, Wesnoth still won't think so, because of its crappy way of dealing with Lua.
20120125 01:45:07< Aethaeryn> So I just make each one a macro, prefixed with #define FOOBAR << >> #enddef at the start and end of the file and then I just do [lua] code={FOOBAR} [/lua] 
20120125 01:45:12< Aethaeryn> A dozen times or so
20120125 01:45:18< Aethaeryn> That way everyone gets the Lua without download.
20120125 01:45:34< vultraz> rofl the problem is atomicbomb joins the room XD
20120125 01:45:45< Aethaeryn> Otherwise, it's live, but you must have identical Lua on all of the players' machines since it reads it live
20120125 01:47:14< atomicbomb> what the hell
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20120125 01:49:16< Aethaeryn> Anyway, there's only a handful of things as complicate as MoD.
20120125 01:49:17<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: aethaeryn * r13083 /trunk/Master_of_Dungeons/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Moving the common scenario elements into their own macro and making the main scenario minimally defined.
20120125 01:49:22< Aethaeryn> Such as Wesband.
20120125 01:49:40< Aethaeryn> Who knows? Maybe I can get MoD mainlined one day :-P
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20120125 02:34:09< Aethaeryn> Anyone want to play the new MP-campaign-ified MoD?
20120125 02:34:13< Aethaeryn> Espreon: ^
20120125 02:36:46<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: aethaeryn * r13084 /trunk/Master_of_Dungeons/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Making MoD a functional MP campaign.
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20120125 04:09:35< shadowm> AI0867: no
20120125 04:09:46< shadowm> wrong channel
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20120125 04:12:09<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r13085 /trunk/Tales_of_the_Setting_Sun/scenarios1/001_Captured.cfg: fixed typo that made first scenario unwinnable if enemy flag carrier died.
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--- Log opened Wed Jan 25 07:42:12 2012
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20120125 07:42:25-!- Topic for #wesnoth-umc-dev: Wesnoth-UMC-Dev Project discussion and support channel | http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net | Staff: AI0867, Espreon | Blog: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net/blog/ | IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org, http://irclogs.ai0867.net
20120125 07:42:25-!- Topic set by shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] [Sat Sep 24 21:45:44 2011]
20120125 07:42:25[Users #wesnoth-umc-dev]
20120125 07:42:25[@ChanServ  ] [ AI0867    ] [ fendrin] [ loonycyborg] [ shadowm_laptop] 
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20120125 07:42:25[ Aethaeryn ] [ Espreon   ] [ lobby  ] [ shadowm    ] 
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20120125 07:42:41-!- Home page for #wesnoth-umc-dev: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net
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20120125 10:15:08<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13086 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/02_Unknown_Land.cfg: NX: minor tweakss
20120125 10:20:43<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13087 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/02_Unknown_Land.cfg: NX: removed experience_modifier= key and added next_scenario= (how did I forget this before?)
20120125 10:25:05<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13088 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/02_Unknown_Land.cfg: NX: dialog tweaks
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20120125 11:32:18<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13089 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/ (scenario-utils.cfg spawners.cfg): NX: fixed typo and missing #endif in {DIFF}
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20120125 11:52:57<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13090 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/02_Unknown_Land.cfg: NX: fixed some preprocessor errors. Actually loads now
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20120125 19:32:47< Aethaeryn> Espreon: If wesnoth-umc-dev isn't planning ton convert from git I'm probably going to use esr's reposurgeon (all hail the reposturgeon) to "fork" the SVN and rip out my five or so folders because I prefer git, and I would also like it if all of my significant code were in one place for portfolio reasons. I really don't like SVN's branching/tagging and 1.10/1.11 is the perfect opportunity for me to convert just in case someth
20120125 19:32:56< Aethaeryn> *to convert
20120125 19:33:09< Aethaeryn> Sorry, apparently greek makes me want to -on words that end in o
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20120125 19:33:27< Aethaeryn> Odds are that if not now, it'll be at least a year from now
20120125 19:33:41< shadowm> Are you going to try something by yourself, or there's a specific guide I could use too?
20120125 19:33:49< shadowm> also, your message was truncated at "just in case someth"
20120125 19:34:01< Aethaeryn> I'm in a hurry, have to go
20120125 19:34:07< Aethaeryn> Just in case something goes wrong
20120125 19:34:23< Aethaeryn> Sorry, tiny font on a 1080p screen
20120125 19:34:27< Aethaeryn> I didn't realize it was that long
20120125 19:34:52< shadowm> if you are using irssi, try splitlong.pl
20120125 19:37:18< Aethaeryn> Right, all my .pl got lost when I switched boxes
20120125 19:37:23< Aethaeryn> I only copied the config file
20120125 19:37:48< shadowm> http://scripts.irssi.org/scripts/splitlong.pl
20120125 19:41:22< Aethaeryn> shadowm: esr says reposurgeon is fully capable
20120125 19:41:31< Aethaeryn> So the guide is documentation
20120125 19:41:36< Aethaeryn> I'm trying it this weekend
20120125 19:41:56<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: anonymissimus * r13092 /trunk/Wesnoth_Lua_Pack/utils.cfg: 
20120125 19:41:56<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: WLP: fix clearing of unit/side debug dialog menu items
20120125 19:41:56<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: In < 1.11 we need so put empty keys/tags to minimize the amount
20120125 19:41:56<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: of wml carried over to the following scenarios since menu items are
20120125 19:41:56<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: automstically carried over. In 1.11 I add a clear_menu_item tag
20120125 19:41:57<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: to the engine to improve this.
20120125 19:42:14<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r13093 /trunk/After_the_Storm/episode1/maps/ (09_The_Triad_part_1.map 09_The_Triad_part_2.map): AtS E1S9.1, E1S9.2: minor map changes
20120125 19:42:49<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r13094 /trunk/After_the_Storm/ (changelog images/units/shaxthal/ivyel.png): AtS: new baseframe for the Shaxthal Stormblade
20120125 19:48:45<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r13095 /trunk/After_the_Storm/episode1/scenarios/09_The_Triad_part_2.cfg: AtS E1S9.2: use CONTINUE_PLAYING_STORY_MUSIC_FIRST
20120125 20:06:50-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20120125 20:10:01<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: anonymissimus * r13096 /trunk/The_Earths_Gut/tools/message_check.lua: 
20120125 20:10:02<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: TEG: new tool message_check
20120125 20:10:02<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: In [message]s, if we have id=, the value should not be narrator, unit
20120125 20:10:02<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: or second_unit.
20120125 20:10:02<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: Likewise, if we have speaker=, the value should (better) be
20120125 20:10:02<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: narrator or unit or second_unit.
20120125 20:10:03<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: My addons were already clean...now I know it for sure.
20120125 20:10:46<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: anonymissimus * r13097 /trunk/The_Earths_Gut/lua/teg_wml_tags.lua: 
20120125 20:10:46<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: TEG: new tag: teg_clear_menu_item
20120125 20:10:46<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: To remove as much of the wml as possible,
20120125 20:10:46<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: since menu items and their wml accumulated in savegames.
20120125 20:10:46<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: Backwardscompat kept with wesnoth.compare_versions.
20120125 20:11:23<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: anonymissimus * r13098 /trunk/The_Earths_Gut/lua/teg_wml_tags.lua: TEG: allow for comma-separated list of ids in teg_clear_menu_item
20120125 20:12:16<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: anonymissimus * r13099 /trunk/The_Earths_Gut/utils/ (debug.cfg lua.cfg misc.cfg sides_and_unit-utils.cfg): TEG: make use of [teg_clear_menu_item]/fix menu items not cleared
20120125 20:18:29< Aethaeryn> AI0867, shikadibot Espreon: If there is any interest, I can try reposurgeon on the whole repo this weekend.
20120125 20:19:42-!- Crend [~crend@77-22-114-250-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20120125 20:20:17< Aethaeryn> esr's post seems to imply that 2.0 should handle umc-dev's standard structure
20120125 20:21:29-!- Crendgrim [~crend@77-22-114-250-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
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20120125 20:22:48< shadowm> wesnoth-umc-dev doesn't have a "standard" structure
20120125 20:23:01< shadowm> I am also not shikadibot
20120125 20:24:20< Aethaeryn> shadowm: thia phone is tny, 3g lags, and the screen glareas
20120125 20:24:52< Aethaeryn> *glares
20120125 20:26:02< Aethaeryn> I can barely write anything
20120125 20:26:43< Aethaeryn> I meant the /trunk  branch /tags structure
20120125 20:27:02< shadowm> it is not standard as I said
20120125 20:27:12< shadowm> every subdirectory in trunk and branches/?.*/ represents a separate project
20120125 20:28:14< Aethaeryn> git can handle subdirs only now
20120125 20:28:21< Aethaeryn> since 1.7
20120125 20:28:34< Aethaeryn> see logs from earlier
20120125 20:28:42< shadowm> in normal software projects, trunk/ branches/ and tags/ belong to a single project
20120125 20:29:58< Aethaeryn> y
20120125 20:30:16< Aethaeryn> But it is consistent
20120125 20:30:43< Aethaeryn> so a script might be able to handle it
20120125 20:30:54< shadowm> only for the user-made Wesnoth add-on case
20120125 20:31:09< shadowm> there are a few branches that do not represent add-on projects, and those work as if they were their own trunks
20120125 20:31:54< shadowm> tags/ also has a completely different hierarchy
20120125 20:32:28< shadowm> either tags/?.*/<Project name> or tags/trunk/<Project name>
20120125 20:32:39< shadowm> because I didn't know better at the time
20120125 20:37:57< Aethaeryn> ok
20120125 20:38:18< Aethaeryn> but it should be machine parseable by some rules
20120125 20:38:58< shadowm> everything is. I'm just saying it's not your standard, run-of-the-mill Subversion repository
20120125 20:40:12< Aethaeryn> ok
20120125 20:40:21< Aethaeryn> Thanks
20120125 20:40:56< Aethaeryn> I am not familiar with svn that intimately
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20120125 21:56:33<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r13100 /trunk/After_the_Storm/ (changelog units/shaxthal/Infiltrator.cfg): 
20120125 21:56:33<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: increased Shaxthal Infiltrator's resistances to match biomechanical_elusivefoot
20120125 21:56:33<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev:  * Blade: 0% -> 20%
20120125 21:56:33<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev:  * Pierce: 0% -> 30%
20120125 21:56:33<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev:  * Impact: -10% -> 0%
20120125 21:56:33<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev:  * Cold: 0% -> 10%
20120125 21:56:57<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r13101 /trunk/After_the_Storm/ (changelog units/shaxthal/Stormblade_Ivyel.cfg): 
20120125 21:56:57<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: increased various stats for the Shaxthal Stormblade in E1S9.2
20120125 21:56:57<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev:  * Increased resistances: fire (-10% -> 10%), arcane (-50% -> -10%)
20120125 21:56:57<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev:  * Increased movement from 5 to 6
20120125 21:56:58<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev:  * Increased HP from 49 to 67
20120125 21:56:58<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev:  * Added a ranged attack
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20120125 22:48:44<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r13102 /trunk/After_the_Storm/images/units/shaxthal/ivyel.png: AtS: fix wrong baseline in the baseframe replaced in r13094
20120125 22:49:13<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r13103 /trunk/After_the_Storm/ (changelog episode1/scenarios/09_The_Triad_part_2.cfg): AtS E1S9.2: various minor changes to the Ivyel encounter
20120125 23:02:55< Aethaeryn> shadowm: how would git umc-dev be structured differently? It woulf be a bunch of dirs in / of master and other branches, right?
20120125 23:03:29< shadowm> For starters, there would be no Git wesnoth-umc-dev.
20120125 23:05:32< Aethaeryn> Just different ones for different projects?
20120125 23:06:54< shadowm> Exactly.
20120125 23:07:26< shadowm> If anything, Wesnoth-UMC-Dev should become a hosting provider for Git repositories under that scheme.
20120125 23:07:32< shadowm> But that's not going to happen.
20120125 23:09:28< Aethaeryn> It could be a project om github
20120125 23:10:22< Aethaeryn> instead of Aethaeryn/wesnoth-thunderstone, you get wesnoth-umc-dev/thunderstone
20120125 23:10:35<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13104 /trunk/NX-RPG/part1/scenarios/ (01_Awakening.cfg 02_Unknown_Land.cfg): NX: FINALLY got the spawn code working, thanks to shadowmaster
20120125 23:11:00< Aethaeryn> And all contributers are part of that group so they can collaborate on the repos
20120125 23:11:30< shadowm> I don't think that would bring anyone any added benefits, considering many members are currently Windows usesrs and AI's evaluation of Git on Windows wasn't good.
20120125 23:11:43< shadowm> It's still AI0867's call, not mine, in any case.
20120125 23:12:16<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13105 /trunk/NX-RPG/lua/NX-RPG.lua: NX: made the character-presence check WML into a lua tag
20120125 23:12:17< Aethaeryn> So either screw over Windows users with new tech or Linux users with old?
20120125 23:12:42< vultraz> what's wrong with SVN...
20120125 23:12:49< Aethaeryn> I assume Windows git support is only going to get better
20120125 23:13:08< Aethaeryn> While SVN will just show its age more with time
20120125 23:13:33< shadowm> vultraz: SVN is obsolete, the network layer sucks and it's a hassle to manage offline changes with it.
20120125 23:13:48< shadowm> And please cut it with your biased half-assed experiences with Git.
20120125 23:14:11<+CIA-43> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r13106 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/debug-utils.cfg: NX: removed WML for stuff in r13105
20120125 23:14:45< Aethaeryn> And you are forced to either push broken in progress changes or not track them and risk breaking things further without a mid-way backup
20120125 23:14:50< shadowm> Git provides as many tools for the average user and even more for the power user, which SVN doesn't have.
20120125 23:15:32< Aethaeryn> git branching makes it easier to say "I am going to totally break this for a week, use the main branch"
20120125 23:15:36< shadowm> Also, the SVN people decided that breaking backwards compatibility at the client level was the best way to recover their user base.
20120125 23:16:06< shadowm> Aethaeryn: that's really what local branches are for
20120125 23:16:12< Aethaeryn> yes
20120125 23:16:27< shadowm> so that you don't really need to alert people things are going to be broken in the first place :p
20120125 23:16:28< Aethaeryn> And svn doesm't have the flexibility
20120125 23:16:32< vultraz> isn't sourceforge using SVN?
20120125 23:16:44< vultraz> totally
20120125 23:16:51< shadowm> SourceForge.net provides cvs, svn, git, mercurial, darcs (?) and bzr
20120125 23:16:58< vultraz> oh
20120125 23:17:00< vultraz> huh
20120125 23:17:02< shadowm> in that rough historical order
20120125 23:17:04< vultraz> nice :)
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20120125 23:17:06< Aethaeryn> Sourceforge web interface is terrible compared to github imo
20120125 23:17:29< shadowm> when wesnoth-umc-dev was created, only cvs and svn were supported
20120125 23:17:32< Aethaeryn> I can't even easily check the +/- lines on a commit
20120125 23:18:04< vultraz> gerr....you guys make git sound good
20120125 23:18:13< Aethaeryn> Github is just better psychologically
20120125 23:18:33< shadowm> while github is nice, I personally prefer having shell access to the repository
20120125 23:18:34< Aethaeryn> Makes me feel good for deleting old bad lines instead of bad
20120125 23:18:43< shadowm> of course you aren't going to get that in any sane hosting provider
20120125 23:18:48< Aethaeryn> shadowm: git is distributed
20120125 23:18:53< shadowm> shush
20120125 23:18:57< Aethaeryn> You can have mirrors
20120125 23:19:06< shadowm> what I meant is that I like full admin power
20120125 23:19:11< shadowm> even if I'm not going to use it
20120125 23:19:12< vultraz> one thing I like about SVN is you can see the file lists in a co or up
20120125 23:19:16< shadowm> for example, to kill a bad commit
20120125 23:19:18< vultraz> GIT doesn't do that
20120125 23:19:20< shadowm> rewrite history
20120125 23:19:23< shadowm> REWRITE ALL THE HISTORY
20120125 23:19:27< shadowm> YES
20120125 23:19:38< shadowm> vultraz: IT DOES
20120125 23:19:48< shadowm> git pull by default uses git merge
20120125 23:19:54< Aethaeryn> So? I could make my own local box be the blessed copy and mirror it on github
20120125 23:19:59< shadowm> git merge by default showsa change summary
20120125 23:20:15< Aethaeryn> github has lots of mirrors
20120125 23:20:20< vultraz> if there was Git with SVN style interface...then I would probably use it
20120125 23:20:29< shadowm> Aethaeryn: you don't understand, so whatever
20120125 23:20:38 * shadowm gives Aethaeryn the funny hat
20120125 23:20:46< Aethaeryn> shadowm: understand what?
20120125 23:21:00< shadowm> vultraz: as I said you're just biased because you haven't used it correctly
20120125 23:21:18< Aethaeryn> Git is a distributed rcs. No one repo is better than another.
20120125 23:21:20< vultraz> well....
20120125 23:21:23< Aethaeryn> Unlike SVN
20120125 23:21:24< shadowm> you must try using it for your own crap before forming an opinion
20120125 23:21:49< vultraz> hummm
20120125 23:22:00< shadowm> Aethaeryn: could you do me a favor and not lecture me about crap I already know?
20120125 23:22:02< Aethaeryn> I even use git locally now for unpublished things
20120125 23:23:26< vultraz> what's Git-SVN?
20120125 23:23:45< shadowm> It's what I've been using with this and mainline Wesnoth since 2008.
20120125 23:24:10< shadowm> It lets you manage a local git repository with a remote Subversion repository as its upstream.
20120125 23:24:47< Aethaeryn> Anyway, how many people actively use wesnoth-umc-dev? It looks like anonymissimus, shikadilord, vultraz, me, espreon, ai, and maybe one or two others.
20120125 23:24:54< shadowm> It's somewhat inelegant, and it didn't give me a good impression of Git back in the day.
20120125 23:25:15< vultraz> doofus-1 
20120125 23:25:17< vultraz> I think
20120125 23:25:19< Aethaeryn> ah, yes
20120125 23:25:21< Aethaeryn> you're right
20120125 23:25:23< shadowm> I started to like Git more when I started using it the way it was meant to be used.
20120125 23:25:37< shadowm> Aethaeryn: hi
20120125 23:25:42< shadowm> shikadilord here
20120125 23:25:43< Aethaeryn> elvish-hunter
20120125 23:25:46< shadowm> what's up?
20120125 23:25:51< Aethaeryn> and those are all of them in my logs
20120125 23:26:11< Aethaeryn> shadowm: I was listing those who CIA has reported this week using wesnoth-umc-dev
20120125 23:26:23< shadowm> I do not really track stats, I'm not an admin anymore as I said AGES AGO.
20120125 23:26:36< Aethaeryn> There's only 8 or so of us and most of us use git, I think.
20120125 23:26:38< shadowm> I'm simply not interested in that delightfully distracting crap.
20120125 23:27:08< Aethaeryn> shadowm: my point is, why subject yourself to svn or git-svn?
20120125 23:27:52< vultraz> I think a reason I dun like Git is it doesn't have commit numbers
20120125 23:27:59< Aethaeryn> If esr's right, reposurgeon 2.0 is the solution, and should be able to rip out individual folders from wesnoth-umc-dev and preserve all commits and stuff.
20120125 23:28:00< shadowm> At this point? Because it's a legacy issue I haven't dealt with *yet*.
20120125 23:28:14< vultraz> so no ego++ for committing r12345 or something
20120125 23:28:16< shadowm> In order to convert AtS to Git I'll need lots of time or use the VPS to juggle crap
20120125 23:28:29< shadowm> vultraz: very stupid reason
20120125 23:28:42< vultraz> true....
20120125 23:29:01< Aethaeryn> vultraz: that's like the one downside.
20120125 23:29:19< Aethaeryn> But the upside is that you can have all sorts of branching and huge projects and complex stuff and millions of revisions and stuff
20120125 23:29:33< Aethaeryn> Imagine if you had r3234123 
20120125 23:29:38< Aethaeryn> It'd start getting hard to keep track as a human.
20120125 23:29:58< Aethaeryn> git scales extremely well, which is probably why Wesnoth add-ons don't really notice the need.
20120125 23:30:21< shadowm> The upside is that you don't have an illusion of linearity.
20120125 23:30:29< shadowm> Subversion can easily make people fall into that trap as well when working with branches.
20120125 23:30:31< vultraz> yeah well I can see then why FlightGear needs Git...teh source code is like 2.5 gigs large
20120125 23:30:57< Aethaeryn> The problem is, do what I do with master of dungeons and have several thousand of lines in lots of files you rewrite every few months.
20120125 23:31:07< shadowm> I'll present you with another downside to Git.
20120125 23:31:28< shadowm> shadowm@reicore:~/src/wesnoth$ du -sh .git
20120125 23:31:28< shadowm> 1.9G    .git
20120125 23:31:48< Aethaeryn> shadowm: but disk space is cheap.
20120125 23:31:54< shadowm> don't be stupid
20120125 23:31:58< Aethaeryn> And large svns also take a lot of space. Wesnoth is double in size iirc.
20120125 23:31:59< shadowm> disk space is cheap, bandwidth isn't
20120125 23:32:10< Aethaeryn> But you can work offline.
20120125 23:32:13< shadowm> No way I could clone a git repository that large without an intermediate step using the VPS.
20120125 23:32:37< Aethaeryn> Well, then move to a country with better internet, like South Korea or Estonia or something.
20120125 23:32:47< vultraz> isn't the cvn checkout of wesnoth about 1 gig?
20120125 23:32:49< shadowm> You cannot be serious.
20120125 23:33:05< Aethaeryn> (I was mainly doing a dig at the US for no longer being a world leader in Internet bandwith)
20120125 23:33:05< shadowm> But I am being serious here, and I'd appreciate it if you could also stick to that.
20120125 23:33:11< Aethaeryn> (At least in affordability of it.)
20120125 23:33:24< shadowm> I'd either have to resort to a shallow clone (which defeats the point of using Git) or something else.
20120125 23:33:25< Aethaeryn> (Media companies are too scared of good, assymetrical, cheap Internet.)
20120125 23:33:35< Aethaeryn> (To them, everything with good upload == p2p == torrent
20120125 23:33:45< shadowm> i.e. having the admins provide me with an unchanging public tarball of the repository I could download using wget- COULD YOU STOP DRIFTING AWAY FROM THE POINT
20120125 23:34:31< Aethaeryn> shadowm: I could always host it on my server
20120125 23:34:32< shadowm> of course, you could say that's only a problem for mainline *Wesnoth* but it's not entirely impossible for a Wesnoth add-on to go above the 20 MiB barrier
20120125 23:35:09< vultraz> eg TLU?
20120125 23:35:28< shadowm> provided enough binary blobs, anything becomes a hsassle.
20120125 23:35:31< shadowm> hassle
20120125 23:35:50< Aethaeryn> shadowm: I am running a 24/7 server, and have enough RAM to spin off another VM (though for several, I'd really have to upgrade to 12 GB RAM at least)
20120125 23:36:17< Aethaeryn> So if shell is the only concern for git, I could always just make a dedicated VM giving shell access to people I trust, like you and Espreon, for UMC git
20120125 23:37:04< Aethaeryn> It would have to be a VM, though, since I don't want to expose my main box as much, and I can trick my router into thinking the VM is a separate machine, e.g. 192.168.1.60 instead of 192.168.1.53
20120125 23:37:13< Aethaeryn> But you won't notice.
20120125 23:37:15< shadowm> 19:36:17 <Aethaeryn> So if shell is the only concern for git,
20120125 23:37:34< shadowm> except it isn't. See RIGHT ABOVE.
20120125 23:37:53< Aethaeryn> uh
20120125 23:38:04< Aethaeryn> Isn't that solved with admin access still?
20120125 23:38:08< shadowm> no
20120125 23:38:17< shadowm> I was presenting my case as a user.
20120125 23:38:36< shadowm> A user who doesn't have a shell account anywhere to use as an intermediate step.
20120125 23:38:51< Aethaeryn> Does the canonical git html interface (used on third-party sites that aren't major repos, e.g. git's own source thing) allow tarball?
20120125 23:39:09< Aethaeryn> Like on Sourceforge or Github, you can download any folder from the web interface, or provide that link to somoene elsewhere.
20120125 23:39:12< shadowm> Tarballs with the index snapshot, not the repository.
20120125 23:39:49< shadowm> That's even more useless than a shallow clone.
20120125 23:40:21< Aethaeryn> http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/ <- tis is what you can set up
20120125 23:40:40< Aethaeryn> It's called gitweb
20120125 23:40:54< Aethaeryn> it does appear to allow snapshots.
20120125 23:41:15< Aethaeryn> see e.g. http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=apt-build/apt-build.git;a=summary
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--- Log closed Thu Jan 26 00:00:07 2012