--- Log opened Sun Feb 05 00:00:08 2012
20120205 00:00:09< timotei> Well...
20120205 00:00:12< vultraz> well...yeah. SDL build for that
20120205 00:00:14< timotei> So,
20120205 00:00:19< vultraz> so...
20120205 00:00:20< timotei> what does cmake say after cmake .. ?
20120205 00:00:44< vultraz> -- Using FriBiDi: /opt/local/lib/libfribidi.dylib
20120205 00:00:45< vultraz> -- Configuring done
20120205 00:00:47< vultraz> -- Generating done
20120205 00:00:49< vultraz> -- Build files have been written to: /Users/me/Wesnoth-1.9_svn/build
20120205 00:00:53< vultraz> (yes I need to change the folder name)
20120205 00:01:00< timotei> hm
20120205 00:01:55< timotei> This guys had the same errors: http://trac.macports.org/ticket/18025
20120205 00:02:00< vultraz> and this doesn't say why teh Xcode builds crash at runtime
20120205 00:02:13< timotei> IDK what to say
20120205 00:02:19< timotei> I have to go sleep now
20120205 00:02:24< timotei> You could do something better
20120205 00:02:34< timotei> Just create an Ubuntu
20120205 00:02:34< timotei> virtual machine
20120205 00:02:36< timotei> using virtualbox
20120205 00:02:40< timotei> and use that in the meantime
20120205 00:02:40< timotei> :)
20120205 00:02:44< timotei> Thoguh...
20120205 00:02:49< timotei> at 2gb is not really that cool
20120205 00:02:52< timotei> :(
20120205 00:03:01< timotei> There's also something like: $ gcc osx-hplj-hotplug.o -o osx-hplj-hotplug -framework IOKit -framework CoreFoundation -arch x86_64
20120205 00:03:10< timotei> IDK. I wish I had your problem :D
20120205 00:03:15< timotei> so I could solve it myself 
20120205 00:03:17< vultraz> lol
20120205 00:03:19< timotei> But IDK what to say
20120205 00:03:26< vultraz> VirtualBox runs too slow
20120205 00:03:49< vultraz> I guess I need to turn hardware virtulization on
20120205 00:03:53< vultraz> but IDK how
20120205 00:04:12< timotei> Hmm, it's already turned on I Guess
20120205 00:04:44-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes@unaffiliated/johannes13] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20120205 00:04:45< vultraz> but the options related to it in VB prefs are greyed out
20120205 00:05:09< timotei> Then probably your processor doesn't suport hw virtualization
20120205 00:05:12< timotei> But you don't need it
20120205 00:05:21< timotei> I have an older Pentium Dual Core T4200
20120205 00:05:27< timotei> And I can run x86 (32 bit) vms...
20120205 00:05:34< vultraz> well I read it does...
20120205 00:05:48< vultraz> lol
20120205 00:06:08< vultraz> all my VMs are sssllllooowww and llllaaagaggg
20120205 00:06:13< timotei> Ok...
20120205 00:06:14< timotei> :(
20120205 00:06:17< timotei> Then IDK what to say
20120205 00:06:23< timotei> install windows or ubuntu in bootcamp :))
20120205 00:06:45< vultraz> compiling on windows looks.....
20120205 00:06:48< vultraz> H A R D
20120205 00:06:52< timotei> It's not
20120205 00:06:54< timotei> ask anonymissimus  :D
20120205 00:07:00< timotei> you just need a zip and you're done :P
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20120205 00:07:21< timotei> Anyway
20120205 00:07:32< timotei> talk to you next week
20120205 00:07:33< vultraz> well...maybe I'll try it on my other win laptop
20120205 00:07:33< timotei> byeeeeeeeee
20120205 00:07:36< vultraz> ok
20120205 00:07:36< timotei> :)
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20120205 00:07:58< anonymissimus> in theory you just need a zip etc yes
20120205 00:08:30< anonymissimus> in reality you have to expect problems
20120205 00:08:49< anonymissimus> but the support is better...there's me, timotei and loony
20120205 00:10:18< anonymissimus> judging from what you need to do on your Mac, it seems to me that it is almost as hard as on windows or harder
20120205 00:11:02< vultraz> lol it took me months just to get teh dependencies installed
20120205 00:11:13< anonymissimus> no apt-get etc (I would've had no idea what to do without that, and with all the stuff which works so magically in those cmake or scons scripts)
20120205 00:11:33< anonymissimus> well, then it's harder
20120205 00:11:48< anonymissimus> it took me one evening to compile wesnoth first
20120205 00:12:26< anonymissimus> it was with code blocks, after downloading a package, adding a few missing files, adding a few missing dependencies it worked out well
20120205 00:12:36< shadowm_laptop> timotei: what for?
20120205 00:12:54< vultraz> well...once Alarantalara told me all I had to do was download teh MacCompileStuff zip and click build in Xcode.....
20120205 00:12:56< vultraz> that worked
20120205 00:13:05< vultraz> BAM
20120205 00:13:15< vultraz> then I upgraded to Lion....no-so-BAM
20120205 00:13:19< vultraz> not*
20120205 00:13:35< anonymissimus> and does Ala not have Lion ?
20120205 00:13:45< vultraz> nope
20120205 00:13:54< vultraz> Snow Leopard AFAIK
20120205 00:14:26< anonymissimus> well, OS upgrades usually break stuff
20120205 00:14:44< anonymissimus> never change a running system, that's true no matter what you have
20120205 00:15:13< vultraz> so...never upgrade your OS?
20120205 00:16:09< anonymissimus> well...I would upgrade my OS at maximum several years apart
20120205 00:16:23< anonymissimus> at minimum, actually
20120205 00:16:38< vultraz> well we did two (10.5 -> 10.6 -> 10.7) in 4 days
20120205 00:17:01< anonymissimus> unless I could follow its development and build it myself or so, in which case I imagine it would be easier to track down issues
20120205 00:17:12< anonymissimus> find their cause
20120205 00:18:48< vultraz> ah well...
20120205 00:18:48< vultraz> I guess I'll stick with releases for now
20120205 00:18:48< vultraz> and maybe try to build on win
20120205 00:19:03< anonymissimus> I would downgrade my OS
20120205 00:19:23< vultraz> nah
20120205 00:19:43< vultraz> not after 3 days of downloading it
20120205 00:20:32< vultraz> I'll be back later
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20120205 08:50:51< mordante> servus
20120205 08:51:10< Espreon> mordante: Ic grete þe
20120205 08:55:10-!- Ivanovic_ontour [~nils@193.191.33.41] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20120205 08:56:08< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> good morning brussels!
20120205 08:56:20< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> (though it is too early and there were no pastries available (yet))
20120205 08:56:27< mordante> hi Espreon 
20120205 08:56:40< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> mordante: your nick is wrong
20120205 08:56:48-!- mordante is now known as mordante|FOSDEM
20120205 08:56:48< Espreon> Pastries for breakfast? Blarg.
20120205 08:56:55< Espreon> *Blargh.
20120205 08:57:05< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> hey, the coke already was available
20120205 08:57:06< mordante|FOSDEM> yeah just noticed ;-)
20120205 08:57:20< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> but no hot drinks and no stuff beside choclate bars...
20120205 08:57:23< Espreon> Non-American coke... is nice.
20120205 08:57:33< Espreon> And yes, I'm talking about Coca-Cola coke.
20120205 08:57:44< Espreon> It's rather sad... especially since Coca-Cola is an American company
20120205 08:57:52< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> it depends on the area
20120205 08:57:57< Espreon> They give us crap with high-fructose corn syrup
20120205 08:59:56< Espreon> Ivanovic|FOSDEM: Coca-Cola coke in Germany doesn't have that crap, right? I don't think I recall seeing anything like it on the ingredients list on a coke I got at the Frankfurt airport.
20120205 09:01:30< AI0867|FOSDEM> only the US has it
20120205 09:01:34< AI0867|FOSDEM> due to subsidies
20120205 09:01:56< Espreon> Blargh...
20120205 09:02:19< ancestral> Espreon: Oh come on, just buy Mexican Coke. You can get it at most grocery stores
20120205 09:02:19< Espreon> I think that Korean supermarket near my house sells Coca-Cola from Mexico, so...
20120205 09:02:25< Espreon> ancestral: Shaddap.
20120205 09:02:28< ancestral> (in glass bottles too!)
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20120205 09:32:18< Crab|FOSDEM> Ivanovic: problem: last scenario probably not winnable without using the Red Mage (if there's no mass of L2 recalls), but AI is unable to keep him alive
20120205 09:32:24< AI0867|FOSDEM> ^
20120205 09:32:49-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120205 09:33:30< boucman> hello everybody
20120205 09:33:32< AI0867|FOSDEM> probable reason: orc income is very high
20120205 09:33:35< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> hi boucman
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20120205 09:33:52< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> AI0867|FOSDEM: yeah, this one is very intentional, it is supposed to be the last scenario and very difficult
20120205 09:34:08< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> Crab|FOSDEM: is there some "cheating" possible by making it behave more careful with the mage?
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20120205 09:34:23< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> you know, having the ai more protective of the mage
20120205 09:34:40< Crab|FOSDEM> Ivanovic|FOSDEM: yes, it can be tried. I think that it might work if we told the AI to disengage with the mage on turn X
20120205 09:35:12< boucman|FOSDEM> i think we need a bigger library of "typical ai behaviours" like "defent place" "defend unit" "run away"
20120205 09:35:55< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> yeah, would be nice
20120205 09:36:21< Crab|FOSDEM> definitely. however, for me, it's now a choice of 'concentrate to fixing the engine stuff' vs 'concentrate on improving the ai stuff' 
20120205 09:36:39< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> fix the engine, Crab|FOSDEM
20120205 09:37:59< boucman|FOSDEM> agreed, you might try to get some contrib from people on coder's corner, there is a micro AI-dev community that is starting to appear there...
20120205 09:40:53< Crab|FOSDEM> ok, 'stopping the mage' helped, I'll try to make it use some tricks to keep the mage alive
20120205 09:58:07< Espreon> Yeah, engine fixes please.
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20120205 10:07:02< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> boucman|FOSDEM: sounds like a sane idea to me!
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20120205 10:11:51< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> Soliton: please check the server, something seems to still try to copy log files for the dev server even though there is no dev server (i am getting the error message mailed every hour...)
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20120205 10:13:55< zookeeper> Ivanovic|FOSDEM, umm, will you delegate handling of daravel's TB text polishing efforts to someone? he sent me a PM about it but i don't really want to get involved in that.
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20120205 10:15:32< mordante|FOSDEM> shadowm, that mail doesn't really answer the question
20120205 10:15:40< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> zookeeper: delegating it sounds good to me...
20120205 10:15:54< mordante|FOSDEM> I also want to do some things on the server, to get Wescamp finally finished
20120205 10:16:12< mordante|FOSDEM> I planned to finish it after GUI2, but that will take too long...
20120205 10:17:18-!- fendrin [~fabian@193.191.37.189] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120205 10:17:25< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> fendrin: http://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/stats/timeline?dates=2003-09-05+to+2012-02-06
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20120205 10:17:46< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> fendrin|FOSDEM: you just asked about our download numbers, there you see the monthly numbers
20120205 10:18:02< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> currently we have somewhere between 2000 and 4000 downloads a day
20120205 10:19:10< Crab|FOSDEM> Ivanovic|FOSDEM: another problem. in second scenario, if first answer is not the right password, AI runs out of time (it probably needs ~10 more turns)
20120205 10:19:32< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> Crab|FOSDEM: you mean the third scenario, right?
20120205 10:19:51< Crab|FOSDEM> oops)
20120205 10:19:52< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> so yeah, in this case the AI is just too dumb to read the text in the previous scenarios
20120205 10:19:59< fendrin|FOSDEM> Ivanovic|FOSDEM: Would shall I do with the link you gave me?
20120205 10:19:59< Crab|FOSDEM> counting from 0 too much, I believe :)
20120205 10:20:17< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> fendrin|FOSDEM: look at it!
20120205 10:20:37< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> since you asked me for download numbers some mins ago when they were mentioned in the freedroid talk
20120205 10:21:19< zookeeper> Ivanovic|FOSDEM, well, i guess i'll tell him that you'll make sure that he hears from someone sometime soon? :p
20120205 10:22:00< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> zookeeper: whom would you recommend for handling this stuff?
20120205 10:22:20< fendrin|FOSDEM> Ivanovic|FOSDEM: No, I asked about the number of words which are translated. Because the droid game has 50,000 words of dialogue. I wanted to know how that is comparable with wesnoth.
20120205 10:23:20< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> you, i thought you meant number of downloads
20120205 10:24:04< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> i am not sure about the words, but i think, using "normal" estimations for textsize (number of chars) to interpolate to words it is somewhere between 300,000 and 350,000
20120205 10:24:12< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> so yeah, we are six to seven times as big
20120205 10:24:25< zookeeper> Ivanovic|FOSDEM, no idea really. AFAIK, we don't have many devs who can handle that sort of stuff.
20120205 10:24:36< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> in fact the strings which have to be reviewed/retranslated per stable series are probably somewhere close to 50k words
20120205 10:24:44< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> yeah
20120205 10:29:42< boucman|FOSDEM> zookeeper: how about non-devs that could be promoted ?
20120205 10:30:31< zookeeper> boucman|FOSDEM, i don't know any
20120205 10:30:46< boucman|FOSDEM> mkay
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20120205 10:36:03< mordante|FOSDEM> Ivanovic|FOSDEM, the performance tools information is here http://wiki.wesnoth.org/UsingGooglePerformanceTools
20120205 10:37:55< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> mordante|FOSDEM: okay, then i most likely got to build the lib first
20120205 10:38:07< mordante|FOSDEM> yup, guess so too
20120205 10:40:09< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> do you also have a link to the sources or stuff like this?
20120205 10:42:22< mordante|FOSDEM> http://code.google.com/p/gperftools/?redir=1
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20120205 10:56:06< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> mordante|FOSDEM: okay, i won't be looking into this stuff today, might do something over the next days
20120205 10:56:32< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> not sure yet when it will happen, but in case i have not said anything till next weekend, just ping me again and remind me
20120205 10:57:06< mordante|FOSDEM> ok
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20120205 11:01:29< boucman|FOSDEM> Ivanovic|FOSDEM: what did the guy want to discuss ? (the one you redirected to me)
20120205 11:03:17< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> graphics stuff
20120205 11:03:31< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> meaning: sprites and possibly spritesheet related things
20120205 11:04:05< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> he said that he already made some propals or the likes some time ago (maybe as possible gsoc student? not sure)
20120205 11:05:05< boucman|FOSDEM> probably 
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20120205 11:24:36< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> YogiHH: fendrin|FOSDEM already mentioned that we really miss you here in brussels at fosdem!
20120205 11:25:15< YogiHH> yes, i would like to be there, too :(
20120205 11:28:42< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> game devroom looks like a real success so far
20120205 11:29:02< boucman|FOSDEM> shadowm: around ?
20120205 11:29:04< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> first talk (too early!) was only have full, but the 2nd and 3rd talk were using over capacity
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20120205 11:29:23< fendrin|FOSDEM> Yes,  there is even some female audience!
20120205 11:29:30< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> several females in fact!
20120205 11:29:50< YogiHH> darn, i should have know that earlier ;P
20120205 11:30:01< fendrin|FOSDEM> lol
20120205 11:30:35< elias|FOSDEM> maybe even chrber would be here now then
20120205 11:30:58< mordante|FOSDEM> YogiHH, too bad you couldn't be here
20120205 11:31:02< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> elias|FOSDEM: nah, he is in some probably snowy area (okay, brussels is rather snowy atm, too) with his girlfriend
20120205 11:31:19< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> i think YogiHH would not have been able to influence this decission
20120205 11:32:37< YogiHH> yeah, time simply didn't allow this year :/
20120205 11:35:03< YogiHH> boucman|FOSDEM: i see that RNG-patch was assigned to you
20120205 11:35:51< YogiHH> boucman|FOSDEM: It most like doesn't make too much sense for 1.10, so i suggest to hold it for now.
20120205 11:36:23< YogiHH> boucman|FOSDEM: Chances are good that within reasonable time there is a patch that suits 1.10.
20120205 11:37:32< YogiHH> boucman|FOSDEM: If i can't do it, a guy named StevenAus asked me to help him tackle this. Which i will do if he can manage it.
20120205 11:37:58< YogiHH> boucman|FOSDEM: Just sent him a message half an hour ago
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20120205 11:54:29< boucman|FOSDEM> YogiHH: i assigned it to me by default, should I reassign to you ?
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20120205 12:02:26< AI0867|FOSDEM> Crab|FOSDEM: what's the progress with AI-played TB?
20120205 12:02:47< mordante|FOSDEM> AI0867|FOSDEM, did you test the drain patch?
20120205 12:03:17< AI0867|FOSDEM> mordante|FOSDEM: it failed to compile
20120205 12:03:23< Crab|FOSDEM> AI0867|FOSDEM: there's a bug that I'm taking care of, which puts the 2nd scenario in linger mode after AI finishes the first one
20120205 12:03:24< AI0867|FOSDEM> it depends on std::abs<int>
20120205 12:03:40< AI0867|FOSDEM> which, as you know, does not exist in standard c++
20120205 12:03:48< AI0867|FOSDEM> or does it?
20120205 12:03:54< AI0867|FOSDEM> am I remembering stuff wrong again?
20120205 12:04:00< AI0867|FOSDEM> ...
20120205 12:04:17< AI0867|FOSDEM> I think so...
20120205 12:04:31< AI0867|FOSDEM> I need to wake up or something
20120205 12:05:58< mordante|FOSDEM> afaik std::abs doesn't exist
20120205 12:06:10< mordante|FOSDEM> but what do you think about the patch idea in general?
20120205 12:07:05< AI0867|FOSDEM> making drain configurable makes sense
20120205 12:07:27< AI0867|FOSDEM> using two seperate tags is an unfortunate effect of the specials system
20120205 12:07:41< AI0867|FOSDEM> but it integrates with attack prediction beautifully
20120205 12:08:03< mordante|FOSDEM> I'm not sure it really makes sense, also makes it less KISS
20120205 12:08:38< mordante|FOSDEM> I now know what a drain does if I see drain, with this change you need to look closely
20120205 12:08:42< AI0867|FOSDEM> I've also asked him to think about the now possible outcome of both units dying
20120205 12:09:01< mordante|FOSDEM> which IMO is a no-go
20120205 12:09:04< AI0867|FOSDEM> true, but that's the same for healing
20120205 12:09:16< AI0867|FOSDEM> you'd give a differently valued thing a different name
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20120205 12:09:21< AI0867|FOSDEM> but  it's the same basic special
20120205 12:09:53< mordante|FOSDEM> with healing it has differently
20120205 12:09:55< boucman|FOSDEM> replacing drain with "drain x%" ?
20120205 12:10:14< AI0867|FOSDEM> that's description
20120205 12:10:19< mordante|FOSDEM> it becomes more drain x%+y
20120205 12:10:25< AI0867|FOSDEM> it doesn't affect any current gameplay
20120205 12:10:35< mordante|FOSDEM> where y can be negative
20120205 12:10:52< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> mordante|FOSDEM: it would be some "special drain"
20120205 12:11:07< AI0867|FOSDEM> you can have charge x4
20120205 12:11:07< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> no need to have it used in mainline, but possible in a clear way
20120205 12:11:12< AI0867|FOSDEM> same thing
20120205 12:11:26< AI0867|FOSDEM> or berserk for 3 rounds
20120205 12:11:30< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> is charge x4 called "jet"?
20120205 12:11:48< AI0867|FOSDEM> I don't know the conventions for those UMC
20120205 12:12:18< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> mordante|FOSDEM: these days we should differ between the "mainline ruleset" and what is possible with WML
20120205 12:12:48< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> if people want to go crazy on things and it is possible without a significant code addition (the patch appears to be rather small) it should probably be done
20120205 12:12:52< boucman|FOSDEM> even in mainline, UtBS blurs that line
20120205 12:13:12< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> the main point for additions not directly meant for mainline is "is the maintainance burden okay?"
20120205 12:13:51< mordante|FOSDEM> Ivanovic|FOSDEM, true we need to differ
20120205 12:14:48< mordante|FOSDEM> the patch is small, but affects attack_prediction code
20120205 12:14:58< mordante|FOSDEM> that code is somewhat fragile
20120205 12:18:27< Crab|FOSDEM> ok, so far the AI completes first 2 scenarios of Two Brothers (without me pressing any buttons)
20120205 12:18:40< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> Crab|FOSDEM: great!
20120205 12:18:48< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> what does it select at the end of the 2nd scenario?
20120205 12:19:21< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> when it gets the choice to either have the HI join (as recruits, too)
20120205 12:19:25< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> or get some extra gold
20120205 12:19:48< Crab|FOSDEM> always the first choice
20120205 12:19:54< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> okay
20120205 12:22:45< mordante|FOSDEM> AI0867|FOSDEM, the non-templated abs works on floatingpoint values
20120205 12:24:54< mordante|FOSDEM> also I don't think using the abs in complex is really a good idea
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20120205 12:37:24< YogiHH> boucman|FOSDEM: It's probably better to drop the patch altogether.
20120205 12:37:41< boucman|FOSDEM> ok, i'll do that
20120205 12:38:42< boucman|FOSDEM> done
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20120205 12:45:31< AI0867|FOSDEM> the absolute difficulties: beginner, basic, intermediate, advanced, challenging, expert, impossible
20120205 12:45:53< lipk> Espreon, do you read me?
20120205 12:49:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 161 bugs, 329 feature requests, 16 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120205 12:50:02< AI0867|FOSDEM> anyone have an opinion about the absolute difficulty levels of each campaign?
20120205 12:51:42< zookeeper> AI0867|FOSDEM, umm, what's the question?
20120205 12:52:42< AI0867|FOSDEM> zookeeper: the idea we discussed was that the difficulties "easy", "normal", "hard" and such should be replaced by the actual difficulty level
20120205 12:53:05< AI0867|FOSDEM> so that the difficulty displayed in the campaigns list would refer to the lowest of those
20120205 12:53:15< AI0867|FOSDEM> or possibly all of them
20120205 12:56:10< zookeeper> well, sure... that's kinda how it's supposed to be already AFAIK, but probably isn't in all cases.
20120205 12:56:58< AI0867|FOSDEM> zookeeper: opinion on the absolute difficulties listed? Possible better names?
20120205 12:58:16< zookeeper> not much. maybe i'd change "basic" to "easy"
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20120205 13:04:19< Crab|FOSDEM> Ivanovic|FOSDEM: I've reached level 4 of two brothers
20120205 13:05:22< boucman|FOSDEM> cool
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20120205 13:37:31< mordante|FOSDEM> AI0867|FOSDEM, please complain more on the forum ;-0
20120205 13:42:35< vultraz> just put of curiosity, what are you guys fav mainline campaigns? 
20120205 13:42:38< vultraz> out*
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20120205 14:08:04< Crab|FOSDEM> Ivanovic|FOSDEM: AI completed the two brothers campaign on beginner.
20120205 14:10:20< mordante|FOSDEM> nice 
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20120205 14:24:38< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> Crab|FOSDEM: nice!
20120205 14:25:44< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> vultraz: two brothers of course
20120205 14:26:47< mordante|FOSDEM> you're to biased :-P
20120205 14:26:51< mordante|FOSDEM> too*
20120205 14:27:41< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> mordante|FOSDEM: nah!
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20120205 14:53:31< csarmi> grats Crab :)
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20120205 15:00:19< mordante|FOSDEM> does anybody know which SDL version used for the OSX binary?
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20120205 15:01:47< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> some really recent 1.2.x version with some extra patches IIRC
20120205 15:02:12< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> patches to somehow make it work with both, osx 10.7 as well as older versions down to 10.5 including ppc
20120205 15:02:41< mordante|FOSDEM> ok since we have this interesting bug https://gna.org/bugs/?19417
20120205 15:02:57< mordante|FOSDEM> I saw it and it looks odd, I expect we have SDL to blame
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20120205 15:18:10< Crab|FOSDEM> ok, AI (with some clicks on dialogs, but without any moves) was able to complete An Orcish Intrusion on beginner, as well
20120205 15:23:18< csarmi> what are the main difficulties that it is facing?
20120205 15:26:01< Crab|FOSDEM> 1) special scenario objectives require scripting
20120205 15:26:56< Crab|FOSDEM> 2) special 'lose if XXX dies' objective require workarounds or a new 'ai behavior' for those units which should not be lost.
20120205 15:27:11< Crab|FOSDEM> 3) when there's already enough units to win a scenario, AI should not recruit any more (to keep more gold)
20120205 15:28:27< Crab|FOSDEM> 4) AI cannot actively ZoC enemy leaders (or prevent them from recruiting via other means)
20120205 15:29:05< Crab|FOSDEM> 5) I had to modify the engine in several dozens of places to allow the AI to ignore messages/options and properly carryover stuff
20120205 15:29:53< Crab|FOSDEM> but those are more-or-less clean modifications (basically, I've added a new flag 'AI is in control') and used it in lots of checks to skip stuff like stories
20120205 15:30:10< Crab|FOSDEM> that's more-or-less it
20120205 15:30:29< Crab|FOSDEM> but, overall, it's quite fun, and it's easily scriptable via lua.
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20120205 15:33:08< Crab|FOSDEM> and, of course, the usual stuff (unability to protect mages, etc)
20120205 15:34:24< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> Crab|FOSDEM: WOW!
20120205 15:34:28< csarmi> why can't they ZoC?
20120205 15:34:32< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> nice results for the weekend and the AI playing campaigns"
20120205 15:35:02< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> csarmi: probably because the AI does not consider "where will the enemy unit move in the next turns and what happens if the leader can recruit"
20120205 15:36:04< csarmi> hm i always thought AI did try to ZoC at least to a point, when it could afford to, just not make it a priority
20120205 15:36:32< csarmi> absolutely no points awarded for limiting enemy movement?
20120205 15:36:36< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: it can zoc, but it's not considering that it makes sense to prevent leader from recruiting even at significant disadvantage or even without attacking
20120205 15:36:51< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: points awarded, but only on attacks and not much
20120205 15:37:07< csarmi> makes sense
20120205 15:37:27< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: imagine 2 wounded L1 spearman in the night versus full hp L3 orc warlord
20120205 15:37:35< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: they can zoc him, even if they have 1 hp each
20120205 15:37:40< csarmi> ZoC'ing enemy leader out of keep is a cheap trick anyway
20120205 15:38:03< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: humans do it) and it's only cheap if you lure the enemy away from keep first
20120205 15:38:04< csarmi> and the ai would either suicide them, or not even move close?
20120205 15:38:21< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: it will attack other units, usually there's a couple of softer targets around
20120205 15:38:27< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: but the leader just recruits more
20120205 15:38:34< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: especially check 4th scenario of Two Brothers
20120205 15:38:36< csarmi> yes
20120205 15:39:09< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: orc there has income=10 on easy
20120205 15:39:25< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: so, basically, adding the villages, he's adding a new unit each turn
20120205 15:39:51< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: and, if the AI is able both to 'recruit' with him, and 'help attack' with him, it's slightly overpowered
20120205 15:39:53< csarmi> well the  warlord haws no business leaving his keep anyway
20120205 15:40:05< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: he has, he has superb melee attack, especially at night
20120205 15:40:14< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: and the player is forced to attack him due to his income
20120205 15:40:23< csarmi> not if it can be ZoC'd out of keep
20120205 15:40:30< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: exactly
20120205 15:40:35< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: imagine this map as human-vs-human
20120205 15:40:56< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: the human playing as orc would have a choice of using the leader offensively or not
20120205 15:41:08< csarmi> I don't have that scenario in mind, but i get your point
20120205 15:41:14< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: if he would, then he can be ZoCed (if unlucky)
20120205 15:41:22< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: if he would not, then the enemy would get an advantage
20120205 15:41:26< csarmi> well the human playing the orc would make sure he is using his leader, but safely
20120205 15:41:29< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: so, it's balanced if it's human-vs-human
20120205 15:41:47< csarmi> of course AI has no idea what safely using a leader means
20120205 15:42:02< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: safety is relative. units can suddenly die, esp. because 'good' side has a red mage and a wave of units
20120205 15:42:25< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: (plus charging horseman)
20120205 15:42:41< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: so, if leader goes out to fight, he's at risk even if controlled by human
20120205 15:42:49< csarmi> it is
20120205 15:42:49< Crab|FOSDEM> csarmi: and here comes the problem
20120205 15:43:00< Crab|FOSDEM> the 'orc ai' is using the leader offensively. fair game.
20120205 15:43:16< csarmi> but the human ai can't punish him for it
20120205 15:43:30< Crab|FOSDEM> exactly. the 'good side ai' is not able to ZoC him, unable to punish for that.
20120205 15:43:36< Crab|FOSDEM> so, here comes the disadvantage.
20120205 15:43:54< csarmi> so what if he gets more points for preventing leader from reaching the keep?
20120205 15:44:17< Crab|FOSDEM> won't work
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20120205 15:44:27< Crab|FOSDEM> preventing from reaching requires moving several unigs
20120205 15:44:31< Crab|FOSDEM> s/unigs/units
20120205 15:44:45< Crab|FOSDEM> so, it has to be a script which would check if's possible to do that one way or another
20120205 15:44:59< Crab|FOSDEM> and, if is, it should move several units to do just that
20120205 15:45:13< Crab|FOSDEM> possible with formula_ai or lua_ai
20120205 15:45:21< csarmi> and it still has no cooperation between units normally?
20120205 15:45:34< Crab|FOSDEM> no active cooperation
20120205 15:45:41< csarmi> can it slow a unit with shaman then ulf it deliberately? i suppose not
20120205 15:45:48< Crab|FOSDEM> yes, it can
20120205 15:46:06< Crab|FOSDEM> 'multiple attackers, 1 defender' is fair game, since it's handled by attack prediction
20120205 15:46:20< Crab|FOSDEM> and slowness is handled specially there, checking if it's a good thing to slow first
20120205 15:46:35< Crab|FOSDEM> if it's unable, it's a bug - the code tries to do that
20120205 15:46:46< csarmi> dunno if it is
20120205 15:48:20< csarmi> and how many level'd units does the ai manage to keep?
20120205 15:49:27< Crab|FOSDEM> start of AoI 7 (Showdown):
20120205 15:49:46< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> "fair game" is a great term for the AI...
20120205 15:49:57< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> you mean: "is a case of a dead unit"
20120205 15:50:43< csarmi> I supposed he meant that it is fair to ask that from the AI.
20120205 15:51:01< Crab|FOSDEM> L3 avenger,  L2 elvish sorceress, L2 marksman, L2 elvish hero
20120205 15:51:46< Crab|FOSDEM> I meant that there's nothing wrong with using the leader to attack in those circumstances, humans would had done so as well (albeit more cautiously)
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20120205 15:53:22< csarmi> so the only way you can keep the units alive is to make sure they don't fight
20120205 15:53:34< csarmi> I mean specific units
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20120205 15:54:17< Crab|FOSDEM> yes. or disengage them if they are low on hp or after a specific turn
20120205 15:54:26< Crab|FOSDEM> but it can\should be scripted
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20120205 16:25:42< Alarantalara> mordante|FOSDEM: bug 19417 is an SDL bug. I linked it to a duplicate report from earlier. The version of SDL is 1.2.13 for ppc and a nightly build for intel (a bug that causes a crash on Lion hasn't made it into a release yet).
20120205 16:26:00< Alarantalara> Both versions are in the same binary
20120205 16:28:21< vultraz> Alarantalara: trying to compile w/ XCode on a fresh checkout and get http://imagebin.org/197412
20120205 16:29:01< Alarantalara> Around 1.2.14 SDL for OS X switched from using QuickDraw to Quartz as the underlying API (QuickDraw is deprecated) and it seems to have introduced various bugs and performance issues
20120205 16:31:03< Alarantalara> vultraz: that looks like something new related to Lua. I'll need to update/recompile and see what's happening
20120205 16:31:59< vultraz> I think there were some commits recently related to a new lua version....
20120205 16:32:05< vultraz> but I'm not sure
20120205 16:32:19< vultraz> s/recently/past few days
20120205 16:32:58< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> that started yesterday
20120205 16:33:01< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> was done by Crab|FOSDEM
20120205 16:34:09< Crab|FOSDEM> vultraz: several files changed
20120205 16:34:25< Crab|FOSDEM> vultraz: src/lua has a different set of .c files now
20120205 16:35:11< Crab|FOSDEM> vultraz: a few files were added, none were removed from existing buildsystems. but! print.c was not compiled by CMake\scons even before, and it's not in new src/lua.
20120205 16:35:29< Crab|FOSDEM> vultraz: so, you need to modify the list of files in the project
20120205 16:35:56< Alarantalara> The issue is duplicate definitions of VERSION
20120205 16:36:16< Crab|FOSDEM> Alarantalara: but that's a warning only
20120205 16:36:33< Crab|FOSDEM> Alarantalara: the error is lack of src/lua/print.c
20120205 16:37:16< Alarantalara> so it is
20120205 16:38:24< Alarantalara> fixing that gets me to a duplicate symbol
20120205 16:38:43< Crab|FOSDEM> Alarantalara: which one?
20120205 16:39:03< Alarantalara> _fwrite_wrapper (in libitlib and lcorolib)
20120205 16:39:13< Alarantalara> *lbitlib
20120205 16:39:24< Crab|FOSDEM> can you ask the compiler to inline the function?
20120205 16:40:34< Crab|FOSDEM> in src/lua/luaconf.h , there's a inline void fwrite_wrapper(const void * ptr, size_t size, size_t count, FILE * stream )
20120205 16:41:20< Crab|FOSDEM> the foolproof solution is to move the function to some .c / .h file pair, and remove the 'inline' from it
20120205 16:41:42< Crab|FOSDEM> or, if you force the compiler to inline it or to ignore the duplicate symbols, it'll work as well
20120205 16:43:02< Crab|FOSDEM> I'll fix it slightly later if it'd remain unfixed
20120205 16:43:17< Crab|FOSDEM> but I'll be fixing blindly as I don't have access to macs
20120205 16:46:24< AI0867|FOSDEM> [remove_item] is BROKEN
20120205 16:46:41< AI0867|FOSDEM> that is, it now requires [remove_item][filter] (SLF here)
20120205 16:46:49< AI0867|FOSDEM> MAINLINE DOES NOT USE IT THAT WAY
20120205 16:47:13< AI0867|FOSDEM> so, it now always removes every item from the map
20120205 16:47:39< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> and don't forget: if mainline is not using it this way, other content is unlikely to use it the "correct" way either
20120205 16:47:51< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> AI0867|FOSDEM: you mean "no item"
20120205 16:47:59< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> since this is what you saw when you added something
20120205 16:48:03< AI0867|FOSDEM> you used to be able to just use an empty [remove_item] in an [event] and it would automatically use $x1,$y1
20120205 16:48:28< AI0867|FOSDEM> Ivanovic|FOSDEM: no, that was after I added an error
20120205 16:48:32< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> sorry, misunderstood what you have shown me
20120205 16:48:34< Alarantalara> As far as I know, mainline does use filter everywhere now
20120205 16:48:57< AI0867|FOSDEM> grep -A3 -r data/campaigns
20120205 16:49:02< AI0867|FOSDEM> I don't see [filter] anywhere
20120205 16:49:04< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> Alarantalara: considering the grep result AI0867|FOSDEM had when running it on REMOVE_ITEM: no!
20120205 16:49:15< mordante|FOSDEM> ok thanks Alarantalara 
20120205 16:49:35< AI0867|FOSDEM> it uses [remove_item] x,y..
20120205 16:50:08< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> is there a way to make the currently used version (as a hack) work in addition to the version with [filter] ?
20120205 16:50:32< AI0867|FOSDEM> possibly
20120205 16:50:36< AI0867|FOSDEM> I'll try
20120205 16:50:48< Alarantalara> Or at least it stopped using empty ones. I remember having to change HttT a few months ago
20120205 16:51:00< mordante|FOSDEM> nice bug AI0867|FOSDEM :-~
20120205 16:51:19< AI0867|FOSDEM> hmm
20120205 16:51:39< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> Alarantalara: AI0867|FOSDEM played TDH and on one map *every* item was removed
20120205 16:51:44< AI0867|FOSDEM> my error message may have been overly aggressive though...
20120205 16:51:58< Ivanovic|FOSDEM> on a map with many items having all of them not displayed anymore, uhm, sucks
20120205 16:52:14< Alarantalara> Yes, it doesn't need a separate filter tag, but empty doesn't work the way it used to
20120205 16:52:30< Alarantalara> I think anonymissimus changed before the feature freeze
20120205 16:52:49< Alarantalara> I can find the relevant change in the changelog if you like
20120205 16:53:34< AI0867|FOSDEM> I did
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20120205 16:53:42< AI0867|FOSDEM> no wmllint rule though
20120205 16:54:06< zookeeper> wesbot, log 50970
20120205 16:54:07< wesbot> anonymissimus * r50970 : Completely removed the old x,y=$x1,$y1 default in [remove_item], sincewhen running into this rare exception (if the SLF doesn't matching anything)it could be hard to figure out what happens.[remove_item] does nothing in this case now.
20120205 16:54:11< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=50970
20120205 16:54:24< AI0867|FOSDEM> well, it certainly doesn't do nothing
20120205 16:54:27< AI0867|FOSDEM> it does everything
20120205 16:54:42< zookeeper> dunno if that's the only relevant commit.
20120205 16:55:53< AI0867|FOSDEM> thonsew played around in there too
20120205 16:58:22< AI0867|FOSDEM> unrelated though
20120205 16:58:22< Alarantalara> That should be the only one. It added an SLF evaluation in the Lua helper as a remember
20120205 16:58:25< Alarantalara> *I
20120205 17:02:06< AI0867|FOSDEM> it does nothing now that I've added an errorcheck
20120205 17:03:03< mordante|FOSDEM> I'm off bye
20120205 17:03:05< Crab|FOSDEM> ok, bye everyone)
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20120205 17:05:51< CIA-90> ai0867 * r52924 /trunk/data/lua/wml/items.lua: Add a warning for empty [remove_item]
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20120205 17:10:24< AI0867|FOSDEM> jusy realized that the above commit is wrobg...
20120205 17:10:37< AI0867|FOSDEM> but i'm uaing my phone now
20120205 17:10:51-!- AI0867|FOSDEM is now known as AI0867
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20120205 17:37:38< anonymissimus> AI0867: I told you to read the syntax changes thread >:
20120205 17:38:15< anonymissimus> grab through whatever addon you have for all stuff mentioned there and update it
20120205 17:38:23< anonymissimus> greb*
20120205 17:38:53< anonymissimus> and there is a wmllint rule for the particular case you mentioned, the link to the patch is in that thread
20120205 17:39:46< anonymissimus> someone updating one's addon from 1.8 wml to 1.10 should really not need abything else that that thread, if something is missing then it's a bug
20120205 17:40:45< anonymissimus> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=33321&p=519200#p519200
20120205 17:42:13< anonymissimus> that revision you mentioned isn't the responsible one, that's another corner case
20120205 17:44:16-!- lipk [~lipka_bol@host-91-147-212-174.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120205 17:47:48< anonymissimus> AI0867: oh what is that error you added ? you are breaking valid wml which has already been out for several versions, pls revert r52924
20120205 17:52:06< anonymissimus> AI0867: there are also sometimes changes which do not even get a deprecation warning (when going straight from 1.8 to 1.10) nor a wmllint rule
20120205 17:52:51< anonymissimus> I don't make them though; the only chance to catch them may be the syntax changes thread
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20120205 18:26:06< shadowm> mordante: it does if you read point 3 more carefully and remember that if I were to change my opinion on the matter I'd have followed up stating so
20120205 18:36:08-!- lipk [~lipka_bol@host-91-147-212-174.biatv.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20120205 18:46:09< anonymissimus> all: I've created the next syntax changes thread: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=36057
20120205 18:46:38< anonymissimus> (and linked to the 1.10 syntax changes thread which most people will be looking for)
20120205 18:47:08< shadowm> I think Gambit frowns upon announcements (vs. stickies)
20120205 18:47:57< anonymissimus> oh, but the old thread was also an announcement (and he made it!)
20120205 18:48:26< anonymissimus> but I don't care
20120205 18:48:26< shadowm> I guess he might be able to explain then.
20120205 18:48:43< anonymissimus> well he can make it whatever he wants
20120205 18:49:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 160 bugs, 331 feature requests, 16 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120205 18:55:17< anonymissimus> Espreon: could you please make a check for spelling/grammar/style on this post of mine: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=36057&p=520196#p520196
20120205 18:55:57< anonymissimus> (well, not much, but should I put the - in Compatibility-breaking ?)
20120205 18:56:47< shadowm> embedded Lua library, perhaps?
20120205 18:57:11< shadowm> or if you want to be more specific: embedded version of the Lua library
20120205 18:57:47< shadowm> you could also tell people to ignore the Lua section right under the Lua section header instead of using a forward-reference
20120205 19:00:07< shadowm> oh yeah, and that; I prefer "add-on" instead of "addon" in documentation, but nobody has told me yet which format is the more correct.
20120205 19:00:57< vultraz> I think 'addon' is considered misspelled....at least by spellcheck
20120205 19:01:13< anonymissimus> hm add-on contains the - which may not turn out well in some scripts so I tend to write addon
20120205 19:01:15< shadowm> yeah, I hope it's the hyphenated form, because I forced it upon users when moving the add-ons directory
20120205 19:01:41-!- matthiaskrgr [matthiaskr@s9.rdlbnc.com] has quit [Excess Flood]
20120205 19:01:58< shadowm> - is prefectly valid in command lines.
20120205 19:02:23< shadowm> *unless* it's at the start of an argument; then tools may show various ranges of incompatible behavior depending on whether they use getopt, etc.
20120205 19:03:04-!- matthiaskrgr [matthiaskr@109.73.162.119] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120205 19:03:41< shadowm> it's also accepted in its unescaped form in regular expressions unless it's in the middle of a character range specification (i.e. [a-zA-Z_-0-9] should be [a-zA-Z0-9_-])
20120205 19:05:21-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120205 19:05:36< shadowm> hi boucman , were you looking for me?
20120205 19:06:32< boucman> I was, I think it was related to a patch you postponed for post-0.9
20120205 19:06:46< boucman> so I wanted to know if you wanted to handle it or if I should
20120205 19:06:50< boucman> let me check...
20120205 19:07:01< shadowm> post-1.10, I assume?
20120205 19:07:13< boucman> https://gna.org/patch/?3022
20120205 19:07:15< boucman> yes
20120205 19:08:01-!- [Relic] [~relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120205 19:08:20< shadowm> hm, I wanted to check with the author again about whether there's an actual need for that feature because of what I had previously said
20120205 19:08:57< boucman> ok, i'll assign to you, feel free to unassign if need be
20120205 19:09:41< shadowm> alright
20120205 19:09:55< boucman> done
20120205 19:24:39< shadowm> mordante: basically, I don't think I have what it takes to take such a somewhat large project on my own, and I don't want to be later forced to work on it whenever someone needs something
20120205 19:25:26< boucman> any news from the Khalifate ?
20120205 19:43:36< AI0867> anonymissimus: i'd like to, but i'm not home yet
20120205 19:44:50< anonymissimus> boucman: what's up with them ?
20120205 19:45:09< boucman> they have been removed for 1.10 and not added back to trunk yet
20120205 19:45:20< anonymissimus> I suggest to keep them as an addon for a long time now
20120205 19:45:24< boucman> I had a patch that impacted them, so it reminded me of that
20120205 19:45:31< AI0867> shadowm: add-on is not a valod 
20120205 19:45:46< AI0867> shadowm: add-on is not a valid identifier in python
20120205 19:46:00< boucman> they have been an addon since 1.8 and even before that, maybe it's time to get them in for good
20120205 19:46:02< anonymissimus> because for getting them balanced, it is necessary to have them as an addon
20120205 19:46:14< shadowm> AI0867: nor it is in C++, which is why it's called addons_client instead of aadd-ons_client.
20120205 19:46:22< shadowm> I thought we were talking about script input, not programming.
20120205 19:46:33< boucman> they won't get balanced until we get them in mainline, we only balance things by heavy playing
20120205 19:46:45< anonymissimus> there is nobody of the people who can balance them playing qith 1.11
20120205 19:47:31< shadowm> okay a couple of things: 1) 1.11.0 hasn't been released yet; 2) The add-on can be used with 1.10.0; 3) Who is the maintainer?
20120205 19:47:39< boucman> good point, we should have added them to 1.10
20120205 19:47:56< anonymissimus> there is no need to get them back into mainline until late 1.11 I'd say
20120205 19:48:12< boucman> there is no reason not to either
20120205 19:48:17< shadowm> I'd rather see their strings as early as possible from a translator standpoint.
20120205 19:48:29< shadowm> well, ex-translation-maintainer and ex-translator standpoint
20120205 19:48:52< anonymissimus> but it is Noys decision regarding balance and whether/when they should be added to mainline
20120205 19:48:55-!- csarmi_home [csarmi@178-164-141-42.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120205 19:49:25< anonymissimus> and we don't want two versions to maintain
20120205 19:50:09< shadowm> why would you need two versions?
20120205 19:50:27-!- csarmi [csarmi@178-164-141-42.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20120205 19:50:34< anonymissimus> well, as far as the creation of the addon and technical stuff is concerned, I "maintain" or maintained them, but I don't make balancing, that's csarmi, Noy, wintermute
20120205 19:51:07< anonymissimus> well, one version for 1.10 and the one in mainline
20120205 19:51:20< shadowm> you can easily port patches from mainline to the add-on and viceversa
20120205 19:51:33< boucman> ok, we'll discuss it with noy then
20120205 19:52:19< anonymissimus> you are right, we don't actually need two versions, especially since the introduction of #ifver and wesnoth.compare_versions, but the engine kind of forces to make separate versions of addons
20120205 19:52:24< csarmi_home> hi
20120205 19:52:39< shadowm> to, the engine doesn't.
20120205 19:52:47< shadowm> *no, argh
20120205 19:53:23< anonymissimus> shadowm: I'm afraid that this "easily port patches" stuff isn't understood too well by the balancers
20120205 19:53:36< shadowm> but that's why they have a technical maintainer to help them!
20120205 19:53:48< anonymissimus> argh
20120205 19:53:57< anonymissimus> I only wanted to preserve your work
20120205 19:54:20< csarmi_home> why would we need two versions?
20120205 19:54:20< anonymissimus> I'm not the technical maintainer :>
20120205 19:54:48< anonymissimus> well, we need the one mainline
20120205 19:54:56< shadowm> you said that technical stuff was also concerned in your role as a maintainer above
20120205 19:56:04< csarmi_home> What are the advantages of it being mainline?
20120205 19:56:41< anonymissimus> csarmi_home: good question; well, shadowmaster mentioned the translatable strings
20120205 19:57:00< anonymissimus> they could be taken care of in the addon as well
20120205 19:57:19< shadowm> I don't know. Last time I checked Wescamp was still a total mess.
20120205 19:57:39< anonymissimus> yeah, so thereby we could get that suff also in proper shape
20120205 19:57:54< anonymissimus> *stuff*
20120205 19:58:00< shadowm> Translators not cooperating with their mainline translation teams, a certain GUI2 developer with little time being responsible for updating content from the campaignd instances...
20120205 19:59:01< csarmi_home> well if I understand it well, it would be mainline in 1.11 and in any given time the same version will be available on 1.11.x+svn and 1.10
20120205 19:59:19< anonymissimus> well, couldn't we lift that work off of him
20120205 20:00:17< csarmi_home> which works easily as there are no drastic changes in 1.11 that has to be taken into consideration. or is that wrong?
20120205 20:01:02< shadowm> csarmi_home: no-one knows what the future holds
20120205 20:01:26< csarmi_home> All I know is that once serious testing is done the addon should change quite a few times as the liminal change is quite basic.
20120205 20:02:14< csarmi_home> In any case I should think that either way would be fine.
20120205 20:02:21< anonymissimus> reasons for putting them into mainline before late 1.11, other than the translatable strings ?
20120205 20:03:00< anonymissimus> as I said, balancing should be much easier with the addon form, and csarmi has his acc in the umc repo and can do that
20120205 20:03:44< shadowm> makes sense
20120205 20:05:21< csarmi_home> the only advantage (of being mainline) I can see is that players wouldn't have to DL and addon to try it on dev server but I don't suppose their games would be much of an input 
20120205 20:07:13< anonymissimus> anyway, I consider this Noys decisions; but we don't want the same situation in late 1.11 like in late 1.9 (Khalifate really unbalanced) so we would need to remove them again; thus my suggestion
20120205 20:07:29< anonymissimus> afk
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20120205 20:43:30< mordante> servus
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20120205 20:55:39< CIA-90> mordante * r52925 /trunk/src/lua/lauxlib.h: Fix compiler warnings.
20120205 20:58:22< Alarantalara> mordante: why are you using C++ cast operators in C code?
20120205 21:02:17-!- s951 [~s951@dyn1064-176.hor.ic.ac.uk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120205 21:06:42< mordante> it's compiled as C++ code
20120205 21:06:57-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-76-202-17-63.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20120205 21:07:05< mordante> so it's no longer C-code
20120205 21:07:11< Alarantalara> not in Xcode at the moment
20120205 21:09:17< Alarantalara> until now, it's been depending on the file extension to identify compile type, since there is some required Objective-C files to be compiled
20120205 21:09:33< Alarantalara> I'll see what I can to about manually changing them over
20120205 21:10:05< Ivanovic> greetings from Crab_ and me
20120205 21:11:01< shadowm> The lua library was added to the source distribution in order to compile it as C++ code for some exception handling business or something in 1.9.x. I imagine not following that will cause problems in some situations.
20120205 21:11:01-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-4-145-174.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120205 21:11:04< mordante> Alarantalara, ok, it should be changed to be exception save
20120205 21:11:12< mordante> hi Ivanovic + Crab
20120205 21:12:02< mordante> shadowm, what about the addon server do you want to work on it
20120205 21:12:09< mordante> if not I'd like to
20120205 21:12:35< shadowm> I believe you told me this in 2007.
20120205 21:12:52< shadowm> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:SkeletonCrew#Addon_server
20120205 21:13:08< CIA-90> alarantalara * r52926 /trunk/projectfiles/Xcode/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/project.pbxproj: 
20120205 21:13:08< CIA-90> Update Xcode project
20120205 21:13:08< CIA-90> Add/remove Lua files and mark them as C++ code to prevent compile errors
20120205 21:13:27< mordante> I know wanted to continue on of after GUI2, but that takes longer as expected
20120205 21:13:45< mordante> and at the moment I don't have time to dive into the listbox issues
20120205 21:13:56< mordante> so need a small side project
20120205 21:14:18< shadowm> you mean longer _than_ expected, or did you actually expect to be still working on GUI2 framework code at this point? :p
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20120205 21:15:11< mordante> yeah longer than
20120205 21:15:13< shadowm> because IIRC at the time it wasn't expected to take longer than a couple of release cycles; that was at the start of 1.5.x.
20120205 21:15:55< mordante> I know, just more work and harder than I originally expected
20120205 21:16:32< shadowm> well, for starters, campaignd's code is ugly, and there's a lot of missing features, one of which I'll invariably work with before 1.9.0 or 1.9.1
20120205 21:16:43< shadowm> I mean 1.11.0 or 1.11.1, argh
20120205 21:17:52< shadowm> that is, separate add-on dependency tiers as the paste linked in the ML post explains; another thing that would be high-priority for admins would be a mechanism to block IP ranges or *something* to be able to deal with abusive users better
20120205 21:18:29< mordante> ok
20120205 21:18:46< shadowm> being able to translate campaignd responses like we currently do with various wesnothd messages in the client-side would also be excellent
20120205 21:18:53< mordante> at the FOSDEM we talked about a better integration with Wescamp as wwell
20120205 21:19:08< shadowm> also, rename campaignd to umcd or something else :p
20120205 21:19:39< mordante> will post more information about the FOSDEM discussions later this week
20120205 21:19:50< shadowm> (the protocol also speaks a lot of campaigns, but I'm not sure when would be the right time to break backwards compatibility)
20120205 21:20:00< mordante> now 
20120205 21:20:09< loonycyborg> mordante: Why do you think that campaignd rewrite is a 'small' project? :P
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20120205 21:20:15< mordante> we're at the start of a new dev cycle
20120205 21:20:33< mordante> loonycyborg, not per se small, but easier as the listbox stuff
20120205 21:21:07< mordante> for the listboxes I need to have some time to work on it full-time without other things intervening
20120205 21:21:15< mordante> things like real life ;-)
20120205 21:21:36< shadowm> well, that's pretty much my concern for campaignd/campaignd's replacement too
20120205 21:22:19< shadowm> if something breaks/something is missing/the admins want something new, whoever does it will be pretty much tied up too
20120205 21:22:32< loonycyborg> mordante: Are you planning to use asio?
20120205 21:22:53< shadowm> at least right now there's the excuse that it's not maintained and not-too-obviously-broken
20120205 21:24:08< shadowm> yeah, hopefully we could also get rid of SDL_net that way too, since it's now only used int he client side and loonycyborg has been working on making wesnothd use it too
20120205 21:24:16< shadowm> er, wesnothd use Asio
20120205 21:24:51< shadowm> actually, let me rephrase: hopefully we could also get rid of SDL_net that way too, since wesnothd and campaignd are the only remaining dependants at this point, and loonycyborg is dealing with wesnothd
20120205 21:25:15< loonycyborg> There's also mp clientside
20120205 21:25:30< shadowm> I thought you had converted all of the client-side code?
20120205 21:25:39< loonycyborg> Only addon part.
20120205 21:25:39< mordante> loonycyborg, yes
20120205 21:26:01< shadowm> hm, why should there *even* be a difference between the add-ons client and MP client's low-level code?
20120205 21:26:29< loonycyborg> addon stuff is a lot simpler.
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20120205 21:28:46< loonycyborg> That makes me wonder why I didn't start on campaignd instead of wesnothd. Probably because wesnothd seems more important.
20120205 21:29:12< shadowm> or because wesnothd looks much prettier
20120205 21:29:33< loonycyborg> And addon clientside was a good simple pilot project to prove feasibility of the whole idea.
20120205 21:29:35< shadowm> and yeah, wesnothd is also used by a larger audience
20120205 21:30:26< loonycyborg> mordante: Did you use asio in projects of your own?
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20120205 21:37:01< mordante> loonycyborg, yes I've used it recently
20120205 21:38:37< loonycyborg> kk. Might explain why you decided to work on network stuff :P
20120205 21:42:15< lipk> mordante: could you run a wescamp update, pls?
20120205 21:42:40< shadowm> that's also something that should be addressed in the future :p
20120205 21:42:44< lipk> i'd like The_Devils_Flute to be added
20120205 21:43:12< lipk> and an after the storm update, if we're at it
20120205 21:45:54< anonymissimus> add-ond ?
20120205 21:46:30< shadowm> I prefer umcd because it's a complete acronym
20120205 21:46:43< anonymissimus> campaigns/ -> add-ons; campaignd -> add-ond
20120205 21:47:07< anonymissimus> hm then add-ons/ -> umc/ ?
20120205 21:47:36< shadowm> over my dead body
20120205 21:47:38< shadowm> :p
20120205 21:48:19< shadowm> and there's no need for consistency between the client and server per se; it's just that campaignd is a legacy name
20120205 21:48:33< anonymissimus> as was campaigns/
20120205 21:48:44< shadowm> so if it will be rewritten you might as well take the opportunity to rename it as you please IMO
20120205 21:48:49< anonymissimus> but yeah, not somethign for me, but espreon perhaps
20120205 21:49:12< shadowm> I don't consider Espreon an authority for naming *server* software
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20120205 21:52:19< mordante> loonycyborg, well wanted to learn asio before ;-)
20120205 21:52:45< mordante> lipk, better ask AI0867 when he's around I haven't ported my scripts to github yet
20120205 21:53:12< mordante> add-ond sounds too horrible
20120205 21:53:53< shadowm> yep
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20120205 21:54:22< mordante> umcd can be pronounced
20120205 21:55:07< mordante> and campaignd was a proper name once, but I agree umcd sounds better nowadays
20120205 22:06:07< anonymissimus> mordante: do you need to make these fixes to upstream code ? isn't there some way to make gcc ignore those warnings ?
20120205 22:06:14< anonymissimus> without modifying the source
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20120205 22:07:20< anonymissimus> (perhaps the build system sucks hehe, I can do it easily in MSVC however)
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20120205 22:14:43< mordante> anonymissimus, this is easier for me, I also did this change before
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20120205 22:44:22< mordante> I'm off night
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20120205 22:52:09< mcnigelmcgruff> Hello, I'm new here and was wondering if someone could assist me with some modifications I'm making to wesnothd.
20120205 22:55:00< mcnigelmcgruff> I'm attempting to build a ladder system into wesnothd. I have successfully moved the mysql functions into game.cpp and have setup the software to generate a unique game id for each game, record when a game starts and stops, and record which users are playing.
20120205 22:56:06< mcnigelmcgruff> The problem I have run into is trying to find where wesnothd makes the decision that a player is dead. If I can find where that code is, I can use it to record player deaths, which is the main goal of my modifications.
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20120205 23:01:35< loonycyborg> mcnigelmcgruff: wesnothd mostly relays data between clients. It doesn't make such decisions.
20120205 23:02:28< loonycyborg> But perhaps you could intercept something in process_data_game() 
20120205 23:05:51< loonycyborg> or game::process_turn
20120205 23:07:53< Espreon> anonymissimus: umcd is fine...
20120205 23:08:05< CIA-90> ai0867 * r52927 /trunk/data/lua/wml/items.lua: 
20120205 23:08:05< CIA-90> Revert "Add a warning for empty [remove_item]"
20120205 23:08:05< CIA-90> This reverts commit r52924.
20120205 23:08:39< mcnigelmcgruff> Good info, thanks.
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 06 00:00:08 2012