--- Log opened Sun Feb 12 00:00:47 2012
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20120212 00:25:21< Ivanovic> fendrin: updated the default download
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20120212 00:35:38< shadowm> github thinks 1.2% of wesnoth-rcx is Prolog and 0.2% "Shell" (who knows what shell)
20120212 00:36:10< shadowm> I guess it doesn't really recognize qt4 .ui and resource files as such
20120212 00:40:24< anonymissimus> ah come on..."RA layer request failed: OPTIONS request failed on '/svnroot/wesnoth-umc-dev/tru
20120212 00:40:26< anonymissimus> nk/The_Earths_Gut': OPTIONS of '/svnroot/wesnoth-umc-dev/trunk/The_Earths_Gut':"
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20120212 00:43:26< chrisoelmueller> shadowm: the parser used is linked here: https://github.com/blog/1037-highlighting-repository-languages
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20120212 02:35:13< janebot> Wesnoth Forums | Developers’ Discussions • [STATUS] Unused forum accounts purge completed by shadowmaster [ 02-12-2012 01:32 ] [ http://r.wesnoth.org/p520767 ]
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20120212 09:00:53< mordante> servus
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20120212 09:12:24< Espreon> mordante: Ic grete þe.
20120212 09:18:19< mordante> hi Espreon 
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20120212 10:04:10< omero> 'morning
20120212 10:04:25< vultraz> hey
20120212 10:05:06< omero> I'm trying to build from source tarball, it fails because it's probably not finding the pango/pangocairo headers (using scons to initially configure)
20120212 10:05:40< vultraz> Linux?
20120212 10:05:45< vultraz> ask shadowm 
20120212 10:06:47< Ivanovic> omero: what is the exact error message?
20120212 10:06:48< omero> yes, linux. I'm not familiar with scons... I think I could solve if I could pass a specific -I <path to includes> but I'm not finding much about how it's done
20120212 10:06:50< Ivanovic> try to paste that error in a pastebin
20120212 10:06:55< shadowm> no, don't ask me since I'm not around
20120212 10:07:07< omero> lol
20120212 10:07:26< omero> ok, this is what I use for starting the build:
20120212 10:07:26< Ivanovic> that is loonycyborg is the one who created the recipe, so he should be able to help once he has the error message
20120212 10:07:29< mordante> it's his shadow that replies ;-)
20120212 10:07:30< omero> scons config=force build=release prefix=/opt/wesnoth186 prefsdir=.wesnoth186 server_uid=9001 server_gid=9999 fribidi=no boostdir=/opt/boost/include boostlibdir=/opt/boost/lib build
20120212 10:07:31< shadowm> but if you are using a non-source-based distribution you'll want to make sure you  have pango and cairo's development files installed and that they can be found
20120212 10:07:55< omero> ok, the prefix=/opt/wesnoth186 is actually prefix=/opt/wesnoth110
20120212 10:07:57< Ivanovic> omero: first point: why do you still want to build 1.8.6? better go for 1.10!
20120212 10:08:06< omero> ^^
20120212 10:08:14< omero> copy&paste mistake
20120212 10:08:17< Ivanovic> :)
20120212 10:08:40< omero> I'm using my own build-from-scratch system
20120212 10:09:14< omero> and I have built wesnoth several times before... 1st-time I stumble on something like this
20120212 10:09:27< shadowm> pastebin build/config.log
20120212 10:09:47< mordante> omero, like shadowm asked, do you have the pangocairo development headers installed?
20120212 10:09:51< omero> sec
20120212 10:10:01< loonycyborg> omero: It detects pango/cairo using pkg-config.
20120212 10:10:13< omero> yes they're in /usr/include/pango-1.0/pango/...
20120212 10:10:27< omero> pkg-config --cflags pangocairo
20120212 10:10:34< omero> -I/usr/X11R7/include -I/usr/include/pango-1.0 -I/usr/include/cairo -I/usr/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/include/pixman-1 -I/usr/include/freetype2 -I/usr/include/libpng12
20120212 10:11:02< omero> but I guess scons will not call on pkg-config... will it?
20120212 10:11:12< loonycyborg> It does.
20120212 10:11:17< omero> weird then
20120212 10:11:45< loonycyborg> Where's the .pc file itself? /usr/share/pkgconfig ?
20120212 10:12:33< omero> it's in /usr/lib/pkgconfig/
20120212 10:13:01< omero> you mean pangocairo.pc, right?
20120212 10:13:07< loonycyborg> Yes.
20120212 10:13:28< omero> yes, it's  /usr/lib/pkgconfig/pangocairo.pc
20120212 10:13:42< loonycyborg> Then the config check should succeed for you.
20120212 10:13:51< omero> also cairo.pc is there
20120212 10:14:01< loonycyborg> Are there any error messages near it?
20120212 10:14:05< omero> ok, let me retrieve the log
20120212 10:14:57< loonycyborg> Also, you shouldn't pass the last build and config=force should be --config=force
20120212 10:15:28< omero> http://pastebin.com/m0zqURbv
20120212 10:16:26< shadowm> it is certainly not passing all the required flags to the compiler
20120212 10:16:33< omero> should I paste the complete build/config.log?
20120212 10:16:42< omero> on the pastebin, I mean...
20120212 10:16:55< omero> looks quite long.
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20120212 10:19:02< loonycyborg> sure
20120212 10:26:07< omero> http://pastebin.com/dB0kspQu
20120212 10:28:55< loonycyborg> Maybe try fixing the command line? Making it --config=force with -- and removing last 'build'?
20120212 10:33:12< omero> sure
20120212 10:34:33< loonycyborg> In fact having 'build' there just instructs it to build the directory 'build/' even if config checks fail :P
20120212 10:36:23< loonycyborg> The point of doing the build phase even when the config checks fail is to be able to build translations and what-not even if you lack the prereqs to build wesnoth itself.
20120212 10:38:19< loonycyborg> And passing 'build' directly bypasses measures to make it fail at build phase if config checks failed.
20120212 10:38:53< loonycyborg> Actually that's a cool trick here :P
20120212 10:40:51< loonycyborg> omero: Oh. And config.log implies that perhaps you're missing headers or libraries for boost.system
20120212 10:51:16< omero> ok. loonycyborg you probably got what the problem is
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20120212 10:52:00< omero> I'm not sure I have asio, program_options and serialization in boost
20120212 10:52:06< omero> will rebuild that first
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20120212 11:05:42< loonycyborg> omero: asio itself is header only but it brings dependency on boost.system and boost.thread.
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20120212 11:26:17< omero> loonycyborg: much better now. it's failing further ahead... seems I'm missing Ogg Vorbis support in SDL
20120212 11:26:49< loonycyborg> What's in build/config.log ?
20120212 11:27:47< omero> I'll paste the conftest_22 failure... but it's pretty clear that I need to rebuild my SDL_mixer library with Ogg Vorbis
20120212 11:29:20< omero> http://pastebin.com/2j0GrGk9
20120212 11:29:51< omero> I did also use the corrected command line as you suggested, loonycyborg 
20120212 11:31:31< loonycyborg> build/sconf_temp/conftest_22: error while loading shared libraries: libboost_system.so.1.42.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
20120212 11:31:56< loonycyborg> You probably forgot to run ldconfig after installing boost.system
20120212 11:32:24< loonycyborg> And since ogg.vorbis test involves *running* the test program..
20120212 11:35:51< omero> oops
20120212 11:36:35< omero> I was infact checking the buildlog of SDL_mixer and I see... checking vorbis/vorbisfile.h usability... yes 
20120212 11:36:51< omero> so it should already include vorbis support
20120212 11:38:35< omero> ^^
20120212 11:38:58< omero> building now :)
20120212 11:39:05< omero> thanks loonycyborg !
20120212 11:39:14< loonycyborg> np
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20120212 12:40:33< mordante> boucman, you saw the wiki posting regarding the FOSDEM?
20120212 12:50:48< boucman> nop, url plz ?
20120212 12:51:18< mordante> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/FOSDEM2012#Mordante.27s_.60email.27
20120212 12:59:11< vultraz> wait....
20120212 12:59:20< vultraz> are those tab bars is those screenshots?
20120212 13:00:20< Crendgrim> actual tab bars in GUI2?!
20120212 13:00:43 * Crendgrim has to skip yet another stable version...
20120212 13:00:58< mordante> these images are entirely photoshopped
20120212 13:01:16< mordante> in fact these images inspired me to start GUI2
20120212 13:01:23< Crendgrim> ah..
20120212 13:01:41< Crendgrim> so there aren't yet plans to actually add them soon?
20120212 13:01:44< boucman> mordante: good summary
20120212 13:02:06< Ivanovic> Crendgrim: there are plans to add them once someone has the time to actually do so
20120212 13:02:28< Crendgrim> that I already knew
20120212 13:02:47< Crendgrim> I was just hoping that "someone has the time to" could be rather soon :)
20120212 13:04:00< Ivanovic> Crendgrim: patches are welcome
20120212 13:04:02< Ivanovic> ;)
20120212 13:04:11< mordante> boucman, thanks
20120212 13:04:13< Ivanovic> that is once gna.org works again so stuff can actually be applied
20120212 13:04:15< Ivanovic> ;)
20120212 13:04:23< Crendgrim> hehe
20120212 13:04:28< mordante> Crendgrim, depends on your definition of soon ;-)
20120212 13:04:47< vultraz> mordante: what would implementing then involve?
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20120212 13:05:18< mordante> vultraz, what do you exactly mean?
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20120212 13:07:50< vultraz> mordante: how do you implement them
20120212 13:08:11< mordante> I still need to add a better tab control and a better listbox
20120212 13:08:24< mordante> once that is done the dialog shouldn't be too hard
20120212 13:08:34< elias> basically tabs are just buttons i guess
20120212 13:08:40< elias> with special behavior
20120212 13:08:42< mordante> but the tab control and listbox are rater hard
20120212 13:08:54< mordante> elias, basically yes, but the devil's in the details
20120212 13:09:10< mordante> especially the automatic sizing gives me some headaches
20120212 13:09:23< elias> heh, yeah. just look how long it took Qt or GTK to get their GUIs somewhat bug free :P
20120212 13:09:55< mordante> yup
20120212 13:10:16< mordante> afk
20120212 13:11:02 * vultraz is looking the the fosdem 2011 group pic
20120212 13:14:33< Rhonda> huhm
20120212 13:14:55< Rhonda> one thing that I see missing in moving from svn to git is that git doesn't support subdirectory checkouts
20120212 13:15:20< Rhonda> and that will become a BIG burden for translators, if they have to carry the whole repository
20120212 13:15:53< Rhonda> also, it does hinder a "quick" checkout (yes, there are shallow clones, but ...) for working on some specific fix
20120212 13:16:17< Rhonda> the initial checkout with git is much more of a burden than with svn
20120212 13:16:54< Rhonda> and git doesn't work that well with lots of binary data like grafics and music, which wesnoth is heavy with
20120212 13:17:54< Rhonda> and for windows, msysgit is the more recommended way to go than tortoisegit
20120212 13:18:13< elias> yeah. you will need more bandwidth for the initial download as well as more disk space. but i'd consider it rather a small issue
20120212 13:18:21< elias> tortoisegit depends on msysgit
20120212 13:18:24< Rhonda> but yes, the interface of tortoisegit is similar to tortoisesvn, which is a plus
20120212 13:18:31< elias> so you always need msysgit
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20120212 13:19:23< Rhonda> elias: well, for me it isnt minor, I have diskspace limitations, and a full git clone of wesnoth with exploded history size because of binary data would kill me
20120212 13:19:30< elias> hm
20120212 13:19:55< Rhonda> and in not that well developed countries, bandwidth doesn't come for free neither
20120212 13:20:02< elias> until the move is actually done, you probably have 10 times as much diskspace
20120212 13:20:12< Rhonda> so it is very likely it would cut off some translators
20120212 13:20:42< Rhonda> until the move is actually done, wesnoth probably will be 10 times as big, too?
20120212 13:20:54< boucman> Rhonda: what if translations where a separate project using git submodule ?
20120212 13:20:55< elias> but yeah, on my mac mini with a 80GB harddisk i had a lot of trouble with disk space
20120212 13:21:05< boucman> not the most confortable thing, but it could help
20120212 13:21:32< elias> and i'm on a slow network... but i'd just do the initial git clone overnight
20120212 13:21:38< boucman> the good side would be that since it would be a separate project we could give commit priv separately for translations
20120212 13:21:40< vultraz> wow
20120212 13:21:43< vultraz> dave is short
20120212 13:21:43< Rhonda> boucman: I can't speak about git submodule, only heard that it might be painful to work with (read: hearsay). But it actually might be the needed way to go, yes.
20120212 13:22:16< boucman> i've used it a little, it's a bit annoying and tricky but it would at least partially solve the problem
20120212 13:22:31< vultraz> no offense dave
20120212 13:22:37< Rhonda> boucman: about different commit privileges, if it is wanted to switch to git, I would STRONGLY recommend to switch to something supporting gitolite.
20120212 13:22:50< Rhonda> That enables branch-level commit access.
20120212 13:23:06< boucman> never heard ot that, let me google
20120212 13:23:22< elias> i guess SF and github both use their own gitolite fork
20120212 13:23:30< Rhonda> Which makes it possible that the master branch, or especially, the stable branches, will be limited to certain people for merging or pushing only.
20120212 13:23:44< Rhonda> And others can push to specific branches only.
20120212 13:23:58< Rhonda> elias: I fear none of them offer what gitolite does. :/
20120212 13:24:26< elias> yeah, they'd need to expose the features over the custom interface
20120212 13:24:58< elias> or give someone admin access to check out the gitolite config
20120212 13:25:51< elias> Rhonda: on the other hand, apt-get install gitolite on wesnoth.org :)
20120212 13:26:13< elias> also very easy to do custom hooks to sync a bug tracker then
20120212 13:37:18< Rhonda> elias: please turn the po subdirectory in a submodule then. and potentially src too :)
20120212 13:39:30< Rhonda> installed, but I'll get you access later
20120212 13:41:08< stikonas> how will svn be converted to git? With git2svn?
20120212 13:41:32< stikonas> s/git2svn/svn2git/
20120212 13:41:32< boucman> most likely, yes
20120212 13:42:03< elias> stikonas: you can just clone the gitsvn repository into a pure git repository
20120212 13:42:34< elias> and most of the devs already have such a repository
20120212 13:43:12< stikonas> elias: I have such repository too, but I think that svn2git creates much nicer repositories, because you can specify conversion rules
20120212 13:43:23< elias> i see
20120212 13:44:05< elias> Rhonda: what is /olddrive on the server?
20120212 13:44:23< elias> looks like it has plenty of disk space
20120212 13:45:50< mordante> Rhonda, good points regarding translators needing the entire checkout
20120212 13:57:34< Ivanovic> elias: olddrive is something we are not supposed to have anymore
20120212 13:57:55< Ivanovic> it was mounted after a crash for us with them explicitly stating it would only be temporary
20120212 13:58:02< Ivanovic> (okay, it has been this temporary since years now)
20120212 13:58:09< elias> heh
20120212 13:58:29< elias> but yeah. means there's isn't that much room to play with a git repository then
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20120212 14:00:49< mordante> nothing is as permanent as temporary ;-)
20120212 14:04:00< Ivanovic> but hosting the git ourselves is not a good option
20120212 14:04:04< Ivanovic> due to 2 reasons:
20120212 14:04:16< Ivanovic> 1) we'd need to have some better backup plan than we got ATM
20120212 14:04:30< Ivanovic> that is we'd have to be 100% sure that we have copies of all repos
20120212 14:04:58< Ivanovic> 2) consider the bandwidth limitations, we only got 5TB per month and those are also used for the addons, mp server and so on
20120212 14:07:46< mordante> I agree, I also rather have it done by an external pary
20120212 14:07:49< mordante> party*
20120212 14:08:07< Ivanovic> okay, there is also 3 to consider
20120212 14:08:27< Ivanovic> 3) in case wesnoth.org is down we atm should at least still have the bugtracker, ml and VCS
20120212 14:08:39< Ivanovic> this would no longer be the case if we hosted the repo ourselves
20120212 14:10:23< elias> backup would be no issue since every translator would have a full copy of everything :P
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20120212 14:14:33< Ivanovic> elias: there is more regarding repositories than just translators
20120212 14:14:42< Ivanovic> besides: most translators in fact don't have an svn checkout
20120212 14:14:47< Ivanovic> they just download single files manually
20120212 14:15:54< elias> yes, what i was getting at due the decentralized nature there is no real master copy which needs to be backed up
20120212 14:16:27< Ivanovic> elias: what i was talking about is that we'd have significantly more than just one repo and we'd have to be sure that of every one at least one dev has the copy
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20120212 14:16:42< Ivanovic> eg we'd probably have one for the website, one for resources, one for...
20120212 14:16:49< elias> i see
20120212 14:17:33< Ivanovic> translations is not critical since we have several (known!) users (unknown users don't help for backups, since we got no idea how to reach them in case we got a crash)
20120212 14:18:29< Ivanovic> boucman: i don't think that explicit commit access for every translator really is required
20120212 14:18:38< Ivanovic> (or even wanted)
20120212 14:18:47< Ivanovic> the matter here is easing access
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20120212 14:19:07< Ivanovic> translators don't have to worry about formalities like getting a checkout, keeping it up to date and making sure that it actually syncs
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20120212 14:19:37< Ivanovic> the matter with too many translators with access is simply that it too easily leads to conflicts when a pot-update is run
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20120212 14:20:14< Ivanovic> (plus how to make sure that translators really update "merged to latest version" files? this is easily possible with the current model where the uploading persons make sure that the files are in sync with the .pot files)
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20120212 14:21:16< elias> so maybe the po folder should be a submodule and translators only have push access to that
20120212 14:22:26< Ivanovic> and how does this ease the part like "make sure the files are merged against the latest pot files"?
20120212 14:22:32< Ivanovic> especially for translators only using windows?
20120212 14:22:48< Ivanovic> in fact: i think most translators do *NOT* have a checkout at all at the moment
20120212 14:22:52< Ivanovic> since it is simply not required
20120212 14:22:59< Ivanovic> there are direct links to the correct .po files from g.w.o
20120212 14:23:21< elias> yes, someone would have to do an update and commit regularly (same as now I assume)
20120212 14:23:23< Ivanovic> download the po file, open it in a poeditor (like poedit), translate some stuff, send it to the maintainer, done
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20120212 14:23:43< Ivanovic> even if the translate part takes 3 month and the files are heavily out of sync, after they are sent in they will be updated
20120212 14:24:06< Ivanovic> elias: updating in retroperspective and checking that the files actually build sucks
20120212 14:24:26< Ivanovic> it is better to be sure and know "those files shown online *are* synced against the latest pot files
20120212 14:24:28< Ivanovic> always
20120212 14:24:29< stikonas> for example, I am keeping tranlations in a separate git repository. I have /po/ svn checkout and I run svn up and msgmerge from time to time to update files in my git repository for translations
20120212 14:24:50< elias> yeah, so guess there would be no change at all in regards to how translations work
20120212 14:24:59< Ivanovic> elias: jepp
20120212 14:25:30< Ivanovic> Rhonda: and those users with bandwidth and space limitations are unlikely to get themselves a complete checkout (even of the po folder only)
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20120212 14:26:01< Ivanovic> for them it makes more sense to download the single po files they want to work on in one moment instead of going for the whole lot of different lang files in addition
20120212 14:26:47< Ivanovic> stikonas: you musn't forget that you are one of the translators who know their tools very well
20120212 14:27:02< Ivanovic> stikonas: i assume that most don't know how to merge against the latest pot files and all this lovely stuff
20120212 14:27:12< stikonas> Ivanovic: yeah, I'm just saying that I would like to keep similar workflow
20120212 14:27:27< stikonas> although I wouldn't mind checking out full git repo
20120212 14:27:31< stikonas> instead of just /po/
20120212 14:27:51< elias> i don't know anything about the merging... all i did when i last translated something was edit the .po file and commit :)
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20120212 14:30:20< loonycyborg> Ivanovic:  sourceforge offering trac now imo makes it a lot more attractive as a hosting provider.
20120212 14:30:29< loonycyborg> Considering we already use frs.
20120212 14:30:55< Ivanovic> elias: but you can only do so in case there was no pot-update since your edit
20120212 14:31:07< loonycyborg> And we could also delay the switch to git considering it offers svn too :P
20120212 14:31:24< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: i think a switch to git is more important than a switch of the bug tracker
20120212 14:32:09< loonycyborg> Not for me. I already have git svn and can branch and merge as I wish.
20120212 14:32:42< loonycyborg> The most important part is having as few outages as possible :P
20120212 14:33:02< elias> i wonder if an automated git <-> svn sync would be possible
20120212 14:33:15< stikonas> btw, I think that there is one way to reduce the size of git repository, there are a lot of images that were committed and only later optipng was run on them
20120212 14:34:02< stikonas> although that would mean changing history slightly
20120212 14:35:41< stikonas> (image + optipng'ed image takes twice as many space in git as optipng'ed image)
20120212 14:38:39< Rhonda> Ivanovic: Yes, but git does only support complete checkouts.
20120212 14:39:34-!- pestek [~pestek@89-72-154-2.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120212 14:39:52< Rhonda> About git hosting, I think I could host it on git.deb.at
20120212 14:40:33< Rhonda> I already have a gitolite instance running there and use it for my personal stuff. And given that git is distributed by design, …
20120212 14:40:59< Rhonda> I just have to ask my fellows whether the additional diskspace would bear any troubles, but I guess it wont
20120212 14:41:48< Rhonda> hmm, we would need to expand it, currently only 1.4G free on that partition :)
20120212 14:45:34< Rhonda> how much would the git repository need, elias?
20120212 14:46:12< stikonas> Rhonda my svn-gitgit repository 
20120212 14:46:18< stikonas> uses 1.7 GB
20120212 14:46:24< Rhonda> hard to believe
20120212 14:46:39< Rhonda> including full history and all music and graphics?
20120212 14:47:12< stikonas> Rhonda: yes, although I might have ran git gc --aggressive sometime ago
20120212 14:48:21< loonycyborg> For me .git dir takes 2.2 GB
20120212 14:48:32< Rhonda> hmm
20120212 14:49:08< loonycyborg> I've run git svn fetch so it has all branches.
20120212 14:49:34< stikonas> so did I, these 500 GB were probably saved by git gc --aggressive
20120212 14:50:28< stikonas> but you would probably need to have at least 4 GB of free space for wesnoth
20120212 14:51:41< Rhonda> 500 GB?!
20120212 14:52:20< stikonas> sorry, 500 MB
20120212 14:52:30< Rhonda> :)
20120212 14:53:02< vultraz> heeheehee
20120212 14:55:13< mordante> if you use git-svn you need to run git-gc quite often to save space
20120212 14:55:23< mordante> especially after pot-updates
20120212 14:55:47< mordante> git count-objects gives an indication of the amount of 'waste'
20120212 14:58:16< stikonas> I could try to see how much space can be saved by dedublicating optipng'ed images, but that would take a while, because wesnoth-optipng has to be run on every revision...
20120212 15:01:35< mordante> not sure how much it would help since we will optipng images in the future as well
20120212 15:01:49< mordante> also somewhat itchy about rewriting the history
20120212 15:02:03< stikonas> mordante: you can add pre-commit script to optipng on the commit
20120212 15:02:15< Ivanovic> there is one reason we don't want to do this:
20120212 15:02:24< Ivanovic> optipng has in the past led to some strange issues
20120212 15:02:36< stikonas> I see
20120212 15:02:40< Ivanovic> (at least some versions of it and some parameters)
20120212 15:03:00< Ivanovic> which is why there is a script these days to additionally check that the image itself will not be altered in its appearance
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20120212 15:43:31< mordante> Ivanovic, did you have time to test with the performance tools?
20120212 15:43:38< Ivanovic> nope
20120212 15:43:48< mordante> ok
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20120212 16:45:19< diabolo_> hi!.....I would like to know if you guys are applying for mentorsgip in gsoc 2012 !
20120212 16:45:28< diabolo_> *mentorship
20120212 16:45:46< Ivanovic> we consider doing so
20120212 16:45:57< mordante> diabolo_, we're considering to, not sure yet
20120212 16:46:21< diabolo_> Oh!
20120212 16:46:49< diabolo_> Hopefully you will. Your project is quite intersting and I would love to be a part of it.
20120212 16:47:02< mordante> but you can also join Wesnoth outside GSoC ;-)
20120212 16:47:21< diabolo_> I would love to.
20120212 16:47:27-!- Danceman [~Danceman@a94-132-158-220.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120212 16:47:39< diabolo_> I have no prior game developement experience though!
20120212 16:47:42< diabolo_> Is that ok?
20120212 16:47:50< mordante> yeah no problem
20120212 16:47:58< mordante> do you have coding experience?
20120212 16:48:06< diabolo_> That I do :)
20120212 16:48:12< diabolo_> C,C++,Python
20120212 16:48:42< mordante> nice
20120212 16:48:55< mordante> have you played Wesnoth before?
20120212 16:49:06< diabolo_> So what would you suggest to get me started with wesnoth game developement?
20120212 16:49:15< diabolo_> No, Downloading it now :)
20120212 16:49:40< diabolo_> I was just reading a bit about it today....
20120212 16:49:45< mordante> normally we suggest to use SVN, but our hosting company is down at the moment
20120212 16:50:04< diabolo_> Oh!....
20120212 16:50:05< mordante> they expect to be online earliest on Tuesday
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20120212 16:50:33< diabolo_> Cool.....will wait till tuesday....
20120212 16:50:40< mordante> in general it would be a good idea to look at an easycoding task or fixing a bug
20120212 16:50:45< diabolo_> Its better my lab exam will over by then ;)
20120212 16:50:55< diabolo_> *get over
20120212 16:50:55< mordante> the easycoding tasks are here http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding
20120212 16:51:23< mordante> the bug tracker is, like svn, down
20120212 16:51:38< diabolo_> So its the second best place to start besides playing  the game?
20120212 16:52:06< mordante> playing the game and getting familiar with it is of course the best way to start ;-)
20120212 16:52:32< diabolo_> And a fun way to start.....
20120212 16:52:55< mordante> indeed
20120212 16:53:43< diabolo_> btw....I have never worked on projects like this before....
20120212 16:54:02< diabolo_> I mean like being part of a bigger project 
20120212 16:54:19< diabolo_> not many oppurtunities at our college
20120212 16:54:22< diabolo_> Your cool with that right?
20120212 16:54:30< diabolo_> *you are
20120212 16:54:31< mordante> yeah that's no problem at all
20120212 16:55:02< diabolo_> Thank you.....with your encouragement I shall get started
20120212 16:55:06< mordante> in fact that's the situation for most GSoC students
20120212 16:55:20< mordante> and we also like to help new contributors
20120212 16:55:24< diabolo_> Confidence booster :D
20120212 16:55:27< diabolo_> loving it
20120212 16:56:20< diabolo_> So, I will go through the link you sent me and will let you know if I have any queries and what I am interested in!
20120212 16:56:40< mordante> well one of the goals of GSoC is to get students to experience a larger project than their college projects 
20120212 16:57:01< mordante> yes please do, the list might be somewhat outdated
20120212 16:57:34< diabolo_> I will return to you for queries......so outdated should'nt be a problem
20120212 16:57:56< Ivanovic> diabolo_: the best way to get started with wesnoth is to first play it a little
20120212 16:57:58< diabolo_> My college projects were boring so far, maybe except my networking project....
20120212 16:58:11< Ivanovic> to do so it is perfectly fine to just go for the easiest to get binary
20120212 16:58:29< Ivanovic> once you played it a little you might have an idea in which area you'd prefer to get active
20120212 16:58:47< diabolo_> Ivanovic: thanks for the suggestion
20120212 16:58:48< Ivanovic> (wesnoth is quite huge so there are various completely different areas even for coders)
20120212 16:58:57< diabolo_> Will do that first
20120212 16:59:05< diabolo_> But that could take a while
20120212 16:59:34< diabolo_> I am limited by the bandwidth here at my college + Our Indian bandwidths are not that good
20120212 16:59:47< Ivanovic> diabolo_: the matter is that a plain "i want to help" does not say too much
20120212 16:59:52< Ivanovic> ah, okay, yeah, then it will take time
20120212 17:00:13< Ivanovic> (it is a perfect start, though later on you have to somehow focus on some area where you want to involve yourself)
20120212 17:00:25< diabolo_> So I will go through that link in the mean time
20120212 17:00:32< vultraz> diabolo_: and you can even make your own campaign for wesnoth; good way to get familiar with the code structure 
20120212 17:00:54< Ivanovic> vultraz: i don't think so
20120212 17:00:57< diabolo_> Oh!.....That seems like a really good idea!
20120212 17:01:01< Ivanovic> wml differs too much from actual c++ stuff
20120212 17:01:07< diabolo_> Ivanovic: why not?
20120212 17:01:15< diabolo_> Oh!
20120212 17:01:15< Ivanovic> eg the networking code has nothing to do with wml
20120212 17:01:30< Ivanovic> diabolo_: in wesnoth we have several areas
20120212 17:01:33-!- anonymissimus [~chatzilla@HSI-KBW-078-042-163-105.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120212 17:01:41< Ivanovic> eg our content is mainly defined using our own markup language called "WML"
20120212 17:01:52< diabolo_> Ok.....but I think I might be able to contribute to the networking part as well.
20120212 17:02:00< diabolo_> I am Ok with it...
20120212 17:02:08< Ivanovic> diabolo_: where you can contribute just depends on what you are interested in
20120212 17:02:09< vultraz> Ivanovic: familiar with WML*
20120212 17:02:21< Ivanovic> each of us is doing the whole lot of wesnoth just for fun
20120212 17:02:23< diabolo_> That part I read.....a bit about WML
20120212 17:02:38< Ivanovic> so each focuses on things they are interested in, which can be a lot
20120212 17:03:10< Ivanovic> basically you even don't have to be "good" in a particular area as long as you are interested in it and able to get into stuff
20120212 17:03:13< diabolo_> no I do not know WML....should I learn that up first
20120212 17:03:25< Ivanovic> eg i don't think that mordante ever wrote a gui engine before starting the work on gui2
20120212 17:03:33< diabolo_> where do I test WML code.....is there some emulator or something for it?
20120212 17:03:45< Ivanovic> diabolo_: you don't have to know wml to do wesnoth "code" work either
20120212 17:03:46< mordante> Ivanovic, you're not allowed to guess :-P
20120212 17:04:06< Ivanovic> there is no emulator for it, there is the game which is used for testing
20120212 17:04:11< anonymissimus> Ivanovic: thats a weird point "wml doesn't tell you much about the C++ engine"
20120212 17:04:12< diabolo_> Ivanovic: You really think being motivated and interested is good enough?
20120212 17:04:18< Ivanovic> mordante: just because my guesses are too good!
20120212 17:04:22< anonymissimus> the opposite is the case IMHO
20120212 17:04:30< mordante> Ivanovic, indeed
20120212 17:04:45< Ivanovic> diabolo_: lets say it this way: if you are not motivated and interested you don't have a chance to succeed, no matter how much you know in advance
20120212 17:04:51< mordante> anonymissimus, really depends on the part of the code
20120212 17:04:58< Ivanovic> while with dedication and motivation you can get a whole lot done
20120212 17:05:23< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: there are many areas which are tightly bound to wml, this is right, but others don't depend on it
20120212 17:05:38< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: and there is no need to be a great "wml coder" to work on the c++ side of wesnoth
20120212 17:05:53< mordante> diabolo_, we had several successful GSoC students who never played Wesnoth before joining is in GSoC
20120212 17:05:54< diabolo_> That is true.
20120212 17:06:20< diabolo_> It would be nice to become one of them :)
20120212 17:06:52< diabolo_> Interest I have.....
20120212 17:06:55< mordante> well like we said, we're not yet sure whether we'll try to join this year
20120212 17:07:08< mordante> and trying to join, doesn't mean being selected by Google
20120212 17:07:20< diabolo_> I would still like to contribute
20120212 17:07:29< Ivanovic> we welcome every contribution we get!
20120212 17:07:36< diabolo_> Even though it may be a little
20120212 17:07:37< Ivanovic> and we try to make it really easy to get into the team
20120212 17:07:55< Ivanovic> (that includes helping when questions are asked and stuff like this)
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20120212 17:08:28< diabolo_> Frankly speaking, the only thing that kind of makes me nervous is that it is very different doing a project here and at college
20120212 17:08:47< diabolo_> But it seems like its more fun and interesting here....
20120212 17:08:50< Ivanovic> diabolo_: no need to be nervous
20120212 17:08:58< Ivanovic> we are just some geeks doing some stuff we enjoy
20120212 17:09:20< diabolo_> But I want to make sure I can deliver!
20120212 17:09:39< diabolo_> Because everyone here is awesome at what they do....
20120212 17:10:02< diabolo_> Soon I would like to enter that league of being happy with doing what I want!
20120212 17:10:03< Ivanovic> as i said, no need to be nervous
20120212 17:10:05< anonymissimus> the main difference is that here every function is 1000 lines long and has in each of them a call to some other function which is undocumented, does confusing stuff and is itself 1000 lines long
20120212 17:10:21< diabolo_> :)
20120212 17:10:29< Ivanovic> diabolo_: just don't hesitate to ask questions
20120212 17:10:41< Ivanovic> though be aware that there are things we just can't answer either...
20120212 17:10:44< Ivanovic> ;)
20120212 17:10:55< diabolo_> :D
20120212 17:11:16-!- vcap [~vcap@86.207.59.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20120212 17:11:23< diabolo_> You would have noticed that I do have endless queries one blasting after the other :)
20120212 17:12:34< anonymissimus> oh and that you need to wait half an hour after being so bold to change a letter in a .hpp
20120212 17:12:49< Ivanovic> yes, wesnoth is huge and compilation can take ages
20120212 17:12:52< anonymissimus> until your compiler gives you feedback
20120212 17:12:53< diabolo_> half an hour?
20120212 17:12:55< Ivanovic> (depending on your machine)
20120212 17:12:55< diabolo_> !!!!
20120212 17:13:00< mordante> anonymissimus, my functions are not 1000 lines... 1000 lines for a function is insane most of the time
20120212 17:13:10< diabolo_> then even longer I suppose :0
20120212 17:13:12< anonymissimus> mordante: sure :)
20120212 17:13:22< Ivanovic> diabolo_: uhm, depending on your machine and the header changed even longer than half an hour
20120212 17:13:26< anonymissimus> mordante: perhaps they are in some years
20120212 17:13:49< anonymissimus> after various prople added various features and bug fixes and such
20120212 17:13:56< mordante> anonymissimus, I hope not, a function should do one task, and most 1000-liners do more than one thing
20120212 17:14:09< mordante> and these functions are a candidate for refactoring
20120212 17:14:15< diabolo_> oh well!.....I'll look into that once I acually get something done
20120212 17:14:24< diabolo_> *actually
20120212 17:14:37< mordante> diabolo_, only after a few headers you need to recompile everyting
20120212 17:14:41< mordante> everything*
20120212 17:14:57< mordante> most smaller changes need not much to be recompiled
20120212 17:15:10< diabolo_> btw I have never compiled stuff like this.
20120212 17:15:20< Ivanovic> which OS are you using?
20120212 17:15:30< diabolo_> Where do you do it?....the same game engine!
20120212 17:15:41< diabolo_> a combination of linux and windows
20120212 17:15:49< Ivanovic> hmm
20120212 17:15:57< Ivanovic> for wesnoth development i'd recommend using linux
20120212 17:16:08< Ivanovic> setting up the compiler on windows might be a little more work
20120212 17:16:30< diabolo_> i3 processor, 4GB RAM ok for it?
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20120212 17:16:37< Ivanovic> more than fine
20120212 17:16:46< mordante> afk
20120212 17:17:02< Ivanovic> during fosdem some of our devs were using atom based netbooks to compile wesnoth (which took well more than an hour, right, fendrin_?)
20120212 17:17:03< diabolo_> How much of disk space and memory are we looking at?
20120212 17:17:25< Ivanovic> for compilation or for installing/running wesnoth
20120212 17:17:45< diabolo_> and is it ok if I set up wesnoth on the ubuntu in my virtual box?....
20120212 17:17:57< diabolo_> For compilation
20120212 17:18:07< Ivanovic> sure
20120212 17:19:00< diabolo_> I enjoy trying out stuff I don't know in the Virtual Box.... :)
20120212 17:20:36< diabolo_> Is it a german initiated project?
20120212 17:21:05< Ivanovic> what? wesnoth or virtual box?
20120212 17:21:18< diabolo_> I was looking through your website and saw two languages....English and german.....got me interested
20120212 17:21:22< Ivanovic> the original creator of wesnoth is an australian now living in the USA
20120212 17:21:35< diabolo_> Oh!.....
20120212 17:21:48< Ivanovic> though lots of our community is based in europe
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20120212 17:22:06< Ivanovic> and there are many german speakers in the community as well as among the devs
20120212 17:22:38< diabolo_> Just asked out of curiosity!....learnt a bit of german.....so I noticed
20120212 17:22:44< Ivanovic> but in fact wesnoth is a very international project with contributions from many parts of the world
20120212 17:23:07< diabolo_> Like most open source projects   :)
20120212 17:23:08< Ivanovic> these are the translations which were at least once started and of which many are still active: http://www.wesnoth.org/gettext/
20120212 17:23:41< Ivanovic> (though wesnoth seems to be one of the (positive) exceptions when it comes to translated games, many projects seem to have significant problems with translations)
20120212 17:24:17< diabolo_> whoa!...
20120212 17:24:21< diabolo_> so many!
20120212 17:24:44< diabolo_> I could probably also help to translate it to an Indian language ;)
20120212 17:25:27< diabolo_> what exactly do you mean by fuzzy over there?
20120212 17:25:37< diabolo_> not sure if it is right or wrong?!
20120212 17:25:46< vultraz> Ivanovic: er....what are those campaigns listen under Official?
20120212 17:25:51< vultraz> listed*
20120212 17:26:05< Ivanovic> ?
20120212 17:26:27< Ivanovic> you mean under "Unofficial"?
20120212 17:26:34< Ivanovic> this freaking lenghty list?
20120212 17:26:40< vultraz> er...yeah
20120212 17:26:58< vultraz> what's so special about those
20120212 17:27:00< Ivanovic> those are about content which is part of wescamp
20120212 17:27:07< vultraz> ah
20120212 17:27:09< Ivanovic> so basically translateable UMC
20120212 17:27:34< Ivanovic> cf http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2012#Mordante.27s_.60email.27
20120212 17:27:38< Ivanovic> the "wescamp" section
20120212 17:28:12< diabolo_> what is UMC?
20120212 17:28:30< Ivanovic> "User Made Content"
20120212 17:28:46< Ivanovic> in contrast to the content which is part of mainline (and once upon the time was "usermade", too)
20120212 17:29:27< vultraz> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Wesnoth_Acronyms_and_Slang
20120212 17:29:48< vultraz> useful little page
20120212 17:29:49< diabolo_> could you give an example of content on the mainline...
20120212 17:30:08< Ivanovic> any campaign or multiplayer map you directly have installed after installing wesnoth
20120212 17:30:12< diabolo_> vultraz: thanks a lot.....u have given me the bible
20120212 17:30:44< diabolo_> Oh!...ok
20120212 17:30:59< diabolo_> UMC is stuff the user amkes by himself...
20120212 17:31:07< diabolo_> *makes
20120212 17:31:15< vultraz> diabolo_: XD
20120212 17:31:34< Ivanovic> and most often it is available via our add-on server, too (the usermade stuff)
20120212 17:31:35< diabolo_> like he can create his own maps and stuff
20120212 17:31:53< vultraz> yeah
20120212 17:31:58< vultraz> and campaigns
20120212 17:32:00< vultraz> eras
20120212 17:32:02< vultraz> etc
20120212 17:32:05< diabolo_> so how would that make it usermade stuff?!
20120212 17:32:26< diabolo_> is it like stuff to extend the game features?
20120212 17:32:48< Ivanovic> the game is basically just a very powerful engine
20120212 17:32:54< Ivanovic> and everyone can easily create content
20120212 17:33:38< Ivanovic> and the bundle you download just includes some "known to work and be rather decent" content
20120212 17:33:47< boucman> hehe
20120212 17:34:01< vultraz> lol
20120212 17:34:04< vultraz> be back later
20120212 17:34:11< Ivanovic> okay, the "known" part is an euphemism
20120212 17:34:26< Ivanovic> 'it is more likely to work' is probably more correct
20120212 17:34:27< diabolo_> :)
20120212 17:34:41-!- Necrosporus [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20120212 17:34:51< diabolo_> Nice little community you guya got going here.
20120212 17:36:01< diabolo_> Anyways I'll get back to you once I have played the game (judging by the download speed, will take real long) and gone through those links
20120212 17:36:14< diabolo_> thanks for all the help you guys!
20120212 17:36:27< Ivanovic> you're welcome
20120212 17:37:27< fendrin_> diabolo_: You could still cancel the download and do something useful instead. Get a girl friend. Do sports. Write a book.
20120212 17:37:34< fendrin_> Ar read a book.
20120212 17:38:12< Ivanovic> fendrin_: lots of this stuff can be done while waiting for the download to finish, too
20120212 17:38:32< timotei> :P
20120212 17:38:40< Ivanovic> (though you're likely to terminate those activities once the download is done and are lost to the pits of the geek hell...)
20120212 17:38:41< diabolo_> I have had enough bad experiences with a single girlfriend.
20120212 17:38:57< diabolo_> Don't want to get into that again :P
20120212 17:38:57< Ivanovic> diabolo_: then get several of those!
20120212 17:38:59< Ivanovic> ;)
20120212 17:39:14< diabolo_> lol
20120212 17:39:35< diabolo_> That reminds me.
20120212 17:39:54< diabolo_> I love drawing and I am pretty good at drawing cartoons
20120212 17:40:36< diabolo_> and writing some crazy stories with my own fictional characters....can I contribute those?
20120212 17:40:51< diabolo_> they are waiting for some platform :)
20120212 17:41:22< diabolo_> fendrin_ : thanks for lighting the bulb
20120212 17:44:15< diabolo_> Ok...so you have enough charecters and don't need any more?
20120212 17:44:35< timotei> diabolo_: I think there will always be need for such things.
20120212 17:44:43< timotei> Especially portraits for the new Khalifate faction.
20120212 17:44:56< timotei> But IDK about the art stuff, so you'd probably ask other more involved. Like happygrue 
20120212 17:45:14< diabolo_> Ok....
20120212 17:45:36< diabolo_> I'll ask him and see if my mad art interests him.
20120212 17:46:04< diabolo_> timotei: Appreciate the help
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20120212 17:46:25< Ivanovic> for artwork there are several categories
20120212 17:46:43< Ivanovic> stuff "required by mainline" where jetrel is rather strict regarding the required quality level
20120212 17:46:55< timotei> diabolo_: anyway, Jetryl is the art director, he decides what and where :D
20120212 17:47:01< Ivanovic> and there is "used for UMC" where the authors often welcome anything they get their hands on
20120212 17:47:27< Ivanovic> and of course there is "created by an author of UMC" which is usually the reason for option '2'
20120212 17:49:13< diabolo_> does'nt hurt to give it a try
20120212 17:50:20< diabolo_> its all just lying there without being put to any real use......but it was fun to draw! :D
20120212 17:50:43< timotei> Ah...
20120212 17:50:50< timotei> So you're talking about adding already made stuff?
20120212 17:51:30< diabolo_> No.....I just keep making stuff when I am bored or when classes are boring ;)
20120212 17:51:44< diabolo_> So why not do something constructive!
20120212 17:52:02< diabolo_> I am not sure my already made stuff will suit this game
20120212 17:52:12< timotei> Ah.
20120212 17:52:27< timotei> Ok.
20120212 17:53:06< diabolo_> So, should I ask Jetryl if he is interested?
20120212 17:55:06< Ivanovic> diabolo_: jetrel has no say if you want to create some content yourself
20120212 17:55:09< Ivanovic> as UMC that is
20120212 17:55:25< Ivanovic> jemadux: is the one to talk to for creating graphics for mainline
20120212 17:55:40< diabolo_> so who do I send it to?
20120212 17:55:44< diabolo_> if its UMC
20120212 17:55:55< diabolo_> Ok...I'll ask
20120212 17:55:58< jemadux> Ivanovic: i dont say something about that 
20120212 17:57:43< diabolo_> jemadux: do you know who I should contact regarding my own charecters?
20120212 17:58:25< jemadux> diabolo_ ?
20120212 17:59:14< Crendgrim> I *think* Ivanovic meant to write "Jetrel is the one to talk to ..." instead of "jemadux". I might be wrong, but.. ;)
20120212 17:59:44< jemadux> ok .. np 
20120212 18:01:07< diabolo_> jemadux: sorry for the late reply
20120212 18:01:34< diabolo_> I want to draw and make my own charecters and contribute those for the game.
20120212 18:02:00< diabolo_> I would like to know who to get in touch with for that !
20120212 18:02:29< diabolo_> Crendgrim: thanks for the tip :)
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20120212 18:03:26< jemadux> diabolo_: no problem 
20120212 18:04:32< Ivanovic> jepp, Crendgrim is correct
20120212 18:04:47< Ivanovic> this happens when the pepople you talk about are not in irc so that you can tab-complete...
20120212 18:05:06< Crendgrim> ;)
20120212 18:05:06< Ivanovic> diabolo_: artstuff is done in the forums, not via irc
20120212 18:05:14< Crendgrim> or when two people start with "cr", right? :p
20120212 18:05:45< mordante> Ivanovic, time for the mind-read completion ;-)
20120212 18:07:22< Ivanovic> mordante: the problem is that an undocumented API is involved there...
20120212 18:07:39< Ivanovic> and i lack the resources for reverse engeneering it...
20120212 18:07:47< mordante> too bad
20120212 18:08:34< Ivanovic> the resources include "time", "money" (for the hardware layer) as well as "knowlege" (of the inner workings of the proprietory interface)
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20120212 18:09:34< mordante> maybe we can ask the designer of the API to open-source it ;-)
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20120212 18:13:30< diabolo_> faulty internet
20120212 18:14:03< diabolo_> Ivanovic: I will try in the forums then
20120212 18:14:26< Ivanovic> mordante: the feedback from the designer is somehow lacking...
20120212 18:15:28< diabolo_> found the right forums.
20120212 18:15:29< diabolo_> :D
20120212 18:15:33< diabolo_> thank you
20120212 18:17:12< mordante> Ivanovic, too bad... guess we're stuck with reverse engineering
20120212 18:17:21< Ivanovic> jepp
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20120212 18:20:32< anonymissimus> vultraz: btw if you wanna take code from my addons, the one part you shouldn't take from is terrain graphics
20120212 18:20:48< anonymissimus> since I really have no clues about it
20120212 18:21:06< anonymissimus> it's just luck :P
20120212 18:22:36< anonymissimus> vultraz: clean stderr is abaut as important as a clean wmllint output
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20120212 21:15:29< shadowm> timotei, Ivanovic: Jetrel doesn't really do portrait management nowadays; kitty and lordbob do
20120212 21:15:33< janebot> Wesnoth Forums | Developers’ Discussions • [STATUS] Scheduled forums maintenance downtime for Feb. 14th by shadowmaster [ 02-12-2012 20:09 ] [ http://r.wesnoth.org/p520829 ]
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20120212 21:31:30< anonymissimus> shadowm: btw, the wmllint rule for Ggf conversion is broken in several ways
20120212 21:31:47< anonymissimus> which is why it didn't find it
20120212 21:32:02< shadowm> I wasn't aware there was one in the first place.
20120212 21:32:12< anonymissimus> and it seems we have a lot of MP maps with Ggf...
20120212 21:32:48< anonymissimus> may be worth fixing it...but I had no good idea for a suitable rule which would catch all cases it should and non it shouldn't when looking at it
20120212 21:36:03< anonymissimus> line 140
20120212 21:36:17< anonymissimus> and the places which refer that variable
20120212 21:40:52< Ivanovic> shadowm: he did not only mention portraits
20120212 21:40:59< Ivanovic> it could also be "campaign graphics"
20120212 21:41:00< Ivanovic> ;)
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20120212 22:16:25< mordante> I'm off night
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20120212 23:46:57-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 13 00:00:48 2012