--- Log opened Mon Feb 13 00:00:48 2012
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20120213 00:56:36< ancestral> Where are the files containing the parts used for generating the random names?
20120213 00:56:57< ancestral> Wesnoth has a Markov chain of some kind, right?
20120213 00:57:32< Espreon> Please don't tell me you're a nice-nice crusader.
20120213 00:58:01< Espreon> ancestral: Regardless, data/core/macros/names.cfg
20120213 00:58:05< ancestral> Thanks
20120213 00:58:08< Espreon> Yup.
20120213 00:59:21< ancestral> Say, when generating random maps, is there an option to turn off the place labels?
20120213 01:00:01< shadowm> no
20120213 01:01:25< ancestral> Guess I'll file a feature request
20120213 01:01:53< ancestral> Oh… guess that'll have to wait
20120213 01:02:17< Espreon> Yup. :(
20120213 01:02:21< shadowm> :)
20120213 01:03:02< ancestral> I take it you're happy shadowm since that means you can't do any bug report maintenance yourself?
20120213 01:03:19< shadowm> what's bug report maintenance?
20120213 01:03:45< ancestral> Oh, closing bugs, re-opening bugs, assigning bugs, etc.
20120213 01:04:19< shadowm> that's not my job and I only help with closing bugs after releases, and the last time a release was made was weeks ago
20120213 01:04:32< ancestral> Ah, mkay
20120213 01:04:59< ancestral> Good thing we didn't have a release this weekend
20120213 01:05:09< ancestral> Or FOSDEM this weekend
20120213 01:05:58< shadowm> yes, but the lack of a ML is seriously delaying my plans
20120213 01:06:29< ancestral> Mailing list?
20120213 01:08:06< shadowm> precisely
20120213 01:10:32< ancestral> gna.org doesn't go down that often, does it?
20120213 01:10:42< ancestral> Or is the answer "any amount is too much?"
20120213 01:10:55< shadowm> it doesn't go down for this long this often
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20120213 01:11:49< shadowm> *this long that often
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20120213 08:28:17< shadowm> Rhonda: am I understand things incorrectly, or the Wesnoth 1.10 source package in Debian has a patch to cope with Boost 1.48 instead of the latter's source integrating the upstream fix?
20120213 08:28:22< shadowm> *understanding
20120213 08:32:26< shadowm> hm, never mind, I see the changelog for boost1.48 mention it. I was just confused by the mention in wesnoth-1.10's
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20120213 09:00:09< shadowm> yay! \o/
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20120213 09:42:23< Rhonda> shadowm: There is no patch in Debian to cope with boost1.48, that fix is inside the wesnoth source directly.
20120213 09:42:39< Rhonda> That's why it says "Contains fixes for" instead of "patch added for" or similar.
20120213 09:44:40< shadowm> ah
20120213 09:49:30< Rhonda>  I should have put the contains fixes for into the same line as new upstream release to make it more clear.
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20120213 10:47:03< Ivanovic> moin
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20120213 12:27:00< Oleg> Hi guys
20120213 12:27:07< Oleg> Anybody has information when svn return back?...
20120213 12:27:29< Oleg> I am built then CI for Battle for Wesnoth, and want updates for check how it works with latest version
20120213 12:27:36< Oleg> Before present it for you...
20120213 12:27:40< Oleg> *I built
20120213 12:28:37< Oleg> Ivanovic: ^
20120213 12:28:57< Ivanovic> Oleg: cf topic!
20120213 12:29:15< Oleg> Ivanovic: Ok :) How all guys works right now?
20120213 12:29:20< Ivanovic> not at all
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20120213 12:56:29< AI0867> using git-svn for those of us that have it
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20120213 15:15:39< janebot> Wesnoth Forums | Developers’ Discussions • Re: [STATUS] Scheduled forums maintenance downtime for Feb.  by Dunno [ 02-13-2012 14:09 ] [ http://r.wesnoth.org/p520882 ]
20120213 15:21:16< Rhonda> Do we have a high resolution version of the icon?
20120213 15:22:36< Rhonda> … or even a vectorized one?
20120213 15:25:12< janebot> Wesnoth Forums | Developers’ Discussions • Re: [STATUS] Scheduled forums maintenance downtime for Feb.  by Caphriel [ 02-13-2012 14:19 ] [ http://r.wesnoth.org/p520884 ]
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20120213 15:40:28< Ivanovic> mordante: i just built the gperftools using my crosscompiler and some configure hacking, though i got a "slight" problem running stuff...
20120213 15:40:37< Ivanovic> yeah, i don't have the program "dot" directly on the pandora
20120213 15:40:51< Ivanovic> so i will try to analyze the output using my desktop system, hoping it somehow works
20120213 15:43:41< Crendgrim> Rhonda: there once was an attempt by Sgt. Groovy to create a vectorized icon, but I have no idea whether he considers it as finished. Also, I don't think he posted the svg version of his most recent attempts (which are half a year old again.. :/ )
20120213 15:43:49< Crendgrim> Rhonda: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24484
20120213 15:57:32< Ivanovic> mordante: okay, i am generating raw and text output of the files, i hope this helps!
20120213 16:01:49< Ivanovic> mordante: i got no idea how to actually work with this output, so either you got to tell me what to look for (and how) or i can send you the raw as well as the text output
20120213 16:02:25< Ivanovic> the graphical output just sucks over here btw
20120213 16:03:46< Rhonda> Because for the desktop icon a vectorized logo would be a huge win
20120213 16:04:06< Rhonda> Otherwise people will wonder about the strange pixelized icons like in http://imagebin.org/198691
20120213 16:04:20< Rhonda> And that isn't the best for the project
20120213 16:08:00< Crendgrim> http://www.freegamealliance.com/ < here as well .. Wesnoth has the ugliest logo of those
20120213 16:08:04< Ivanovic> the highest res icon we got is the osx icon
20120213 16:08:40< Ivanovic> map-editor-icon-Mac.png: PNG image data, 128 x 128, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
20120213 16:08:41< Ivanovic> wesnoth_editor-icon.png: PNG image data, 64 x 64, 16-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
20120213 16:08:42< Rhonda> Crendgrim: unfortunately the so-called "free" game alliance isn't about free stuff
20120213 16:08:43< Ivanovic> wesnoth-icon-Mac.png:    PNG image data, 128 x 128, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
20120213 16:08:44< Ivanovic> wesnoth-icon.png:        PNG image data, 64 x 64, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
20120213 16:09:23< Rhonda> Ivanovic: that doesn't help with getting it pixelized when being downscaled though
20120213 16:09:37< Ivanovic> Rhonda: as i said, this is everything we have
20120213 16:09:40< Ivanovic> simple as that
20120213 16:09:47< Ivanovic> nothing higher, nothing lower, nothing svg based
20120213 16:09:56< Crendgrim> Rhonda: that's another point, but it's bad that Wesnoth has an ugly icon there :)
20120213 16:10:05< Ivanovic> though some svg based logo has been work in progress for ages but is still not finished
20120213 16:10:43< Rhonda> Crendgrim: couldnt care less about fga buzzinga :)
20120213 16:11:49< Crendgrim> ;)
20120213 16:16:05< Ivanovic> mordante: if you know how to just get profiling data from one very specific point this might make more sense
20120213 16:16:21< Ivanovic> in face the point here would be between gathering all the cache data and then finally displaying stuff
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20120213 16:36:28< Ivanovic> mordante: okay, some futher testing reveals that the images which are somehow scaled are responsible for the performance drop
20120213 16:37:07< Ivanovic> meaning: if i replace the main menu image by something significantly easier (like terrain/void/void.png) the main menu displays significantly earlier
20120213 16:37:19< Ivanovic> the same in case i remove all background= tags in two brothers
20120213 16:37:33< Ivanovic> then the delay between the loading screen and actually displaying the intro text is 0
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20120213 16:47:00< Ivanovic> mordante: it is even understandable that scale_surface is slow...
20120213 16:47:14< Ivanovic> it uses floating point stuff which gets really slow if float is done in software
20120213 16:47:31 * Ivanovic is currently looking at the function in sdl_utils.cpp
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20120213 16:55:51< Ivanovic> for anyone who knows that function: is it really required to use double in those scaling operations?
20120213 16:56:06< Ivanovic> plain floats might be more performant on embedded platforms like arm
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20120213 17:05:30< dcw> I'm trying to use crome so does this work? testing one two three....
20120213 17:06:29< Ivanovic> does what work?
20120213 17:06:34< Ivanovic> your irc client using the browser?
20120213 17:06:43< Ivanovic> no, none of your messages are displayed
20120213 17:06:45< Ivanovic> ;)
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20120213 17:08:44< dcw> LOL yes it seems to! lol I clicked on the link in gnu and changed to #wesnoth-dev :)
20120213 17:10:56< dcw> so direct link would be: https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=wesnoth-dev ..... ;)
20120213 17:13:27< dcw> oh well I'm going to start playing tonight again after a hitus of about 2 years :P lets see how much I forgotten!
20120213 17:14:00< dcw> ^^* have should be in there somewhere :P
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20120213 17:35:26< Ivanovic> okay, when manually scaling down the images before running wesnoth speed is perfectly fine
20120213 17:35:46< Ivanovic> so it really is the function scale_surface which is slow on arm systems (at least when it has to scale down!)
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20120213 17:45:12< AI0867> Ivanovic: maybe there should be an permanent image cache for slow devices then?
20120213 17:45:17< AI0867> s/an/a
20120213 17:45:29< Ivanovic> AI0867: yeah, something like this would make sense
20120213 17:45:45< Ivanovic> some persistent image cache for scaled down (only those are required!) images
20120213 17:46:19< Ivanovic> though it would already help the impression if the loading bar would still be displayed when it is actually scaling down the images
20120213 17:46:46< Ivanovic> the current perception is that you get the black screen and are still waiting for some loading to complete which is, uhm, suboptimal
20120213 17:47:17< Ivanovic> though the best approach would probably be to move to some kind of interger math for scaling images
20120213 17:47:35< Ivanovic> (speed wise that is since it would not require additional space in the filesystem and be significantly faster, too)
20120213 17:50:21< AI0867> it's already integer math
20120213 17:50:38< AI0867> oh wait, wrong branch
20120213 17:50:40< Ivanovic> AI0867: sdl_utils.cpp
20120213 17:50:54< AI0867> upscaling is integer math
20120213 17:51:02< AI0867> Ivanovic: that was where I was looking
20120213 17:51:09< Ivanovic> at least in the 1.10 release the "else" part of the if in scale_surface is what matters
20120213 17:51:49< AI0867> it looks like the "multiple scaling uses" bug is related
20120213 17:51:54< Ivanovic> and that is using double (very evil! single precision might (not sure!) be done via some hardware stuff, double precision clearly won't)
20120213 17:52:21< AI0867> that is, the wanted no-interpolation scaling for terrain, bilinear interpolation for portraits and such
20120213 17:53:16< AI0867> the fix originally committed by silene also improved performance, but broke the minimap
20120213 17:57:21< AI0867> might be wrong on the performance part though =/
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20120213 18:06:15< Ivanovic> all i can say with 99.99% certainity is that those scaling operations are really bad on the pandora
20120213 18:06:31< Ivanovic> and that they are not as nice as they could be on other systems these days either
20120213 18:06:37-!- Crendgrim [~crend@77-22-114-250-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120213 18:06:57< Ivanovic> (considering that eg amd is removing redundancy in floating point units and only shipping one fpu per two cpu cores with the latest arch)
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20120213 18:13:19< AI0867> Ivanovic: I could try rewriting the scaler using 8-bits-past-the-fixed-point math, but I'm doing some more research first
20120213 18:13:37< Ivanovic> AI0867: would be great
20120213 18:16:32< AI0867> it would realy help to have some colored diffs though =/
20120213 18:20:22< AI0867> I guess kompare will have to do
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20120213 18:51:04< chrisoelmueller> colordiff
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20120213 19:10:09< mordante> servus
20120213 19:10:49< mordante> Ivanovic, thanks for testing
20120213 19:11:20< mordante> just wondering we had something with floating point before, didn't you already use floats everywhere
20120213 19:11:37< Ivanovic> mordante: it has always been slow
20120213 19:11:58< Ivanovic> especially stuff like loading the campaigns menu
20120213 19:11:58< mordante> Ivanovic, yeah, but then your suggestion of using floats won't help
20120213 19:12:07< Ivanovic> floats are better than double
20120213 19:12:33< Ivanovic> since single precision can be done in hardware, double precision (aka "double") is software only
20120213 19:12:36< mordante> depends on some compilers you can let them use the same type, so all floating point types are floats
20120213 19:13:12< Ivanovic> just enforcing single precision float for everything can, as Soliton once stated, potentially lead to OOS when playing with non pandora users
20120213 19:13:15< Ivanovic> which would just suck
20120213 19:13:31< mordante> yeah, but it would be good for a quick test case
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20120213 19:14:26< mordante> the other option is to rewrite that code using fixed point calculations
20120213 19:14:34< Ivanovic> i did a quick test replacing all double by float in this function (part of the function that is)
20120213 19:14:46< Ivanovic> it did not yield any (noticable) improvement
20120213 19:14:54< mordante> already had a look at it on the way home since we have some code for it
20120213 19:14:55< Ivanovic> that was with softfp as float abi
20120213 19:15:13< Ivanovic> http://pandorawiki.org/Floating_Point_Optimization#Single_Precision_Floating_Point
20120213 19:26:05< mordante> ok it seems if you use those options for single-precision floating point values
20120213 19:26:20< mordante> so if that doesn't help I guess we have to use fixed point code
20120213 19:26:38< mordante> the commit message of the original fixed_t already hinted at that ;-)
20120213 19:27:35< mordante> AI0867, I also thought about adding more fixed point code
20120213 19:28:28< mordante> (in fact already wrote some code on the way back home)
20120213 19:31:07< Ivanovic> going fixed point sounds like the most sane solution
20120213 19:31:35< mordante> yup we have some code but it's rather limited
20120213 19:31:49< mordante> so I could tackle it
20120213 19:32:07< mordante> just want to make sure AI0867 won't be trying to work on the same thing ;-)
20120213 19:32:30< Ivanovic> mordante: if AI0867 wants to work on this scaling stuff you can continue with (other) gui2 stuff
20120213 19:32:35< Ivanovic> sounds like a win-win to me
20120213 19:32:36< Ivanovic> ;)
20120213 19:33:06< mordante> Ivanovic, well this is also interesting and not too big ;-)
20120213 19:33:15< Ivanovic> :)
20120213 19:33:29< mordante> like I said I already hacked some code on the way back home
20120213 19:33:53 * Ivanovic just knows that image scaling is evil
20120213 19:33:58< Ivanovic> always!
20120213 19:34:09< mordante> it's not ;-)
20120213 19:34:28< Ivanovic> oh, i am very sure that it is
20120213 19:34:40< mordante> the evil thing is that we PC coders have way too powerful machines 
20120213 19:34:42< Ivanovic> in case it works fast enough someone will say "ugh, you are scaling it all wrong" (eg artists)
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20120213 19:34:59< Ivanovic> if it is scaling nicely, some people might come around saying "you know, it looks nice but speed sucks!"
20120213 19:35:12< Ivanovic> or "i'd like to be able to configure manually how to scale stuff!!!"
20120213 19:35:40< mordante> once we fixed the scaling people will complain again about the AI ;-)
20120213 19:35:52< Ivanovic> leading to me implementing basically 500 different scalers (resolution/aspect ratio wise) for the snes emulator i maintain on the pandora
20120213 19:36:03< Ivanovic> the only good thing there is you only have to scale up, not down
20120213 19:36:32< Ivanovic> and with the pandoraspecific modifications of libsdl this has become really easy
20120213 19:36:44< mordante> and let's not get started about scaling icons...
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20120213 19:39:15< Ivanovic> hehehe
20120213 19:39:30< Ivanovic> the pandoraspecific libsdl mods allow lovely hardware scaling
20120213 19:40:12< Ivanovic> that is: in the prog you just state the (virtual) display to draw on and define the resolution to scale to, the scaling itself is done using the hardware and the user can even select some special filters to use with external progs
20120213 19:41:11< Ivanovic> (though i still have to supply various options eg for the snes emulator to allow "full screen scaling" as well as "4:3 scaling" as well as "scaling with the original aspect ratio for pal or ntsc"
20120213 19:41:24< mordante> that's nice
20120213 19:41:49< Ivanovic> though it has a bad sideeffect: it is not possible to grab a screenshot of the scaled image, since the scaling is done in hardware
20120213 19:41:57< Ivanovic> directly before it is displayed on the screen
20120213 19:42:51< Ivanovic> in theory i could have wesnoth rendered in some (larger) resolution and just scale it down, though this would place an even higher burden on the cpu since more (animated!) terrains are there to be displayed
20120213 19:42:53< mordante> are these hardware algorithms open or closed source
20120213 19:43:14< Ivanovic> though it would be lovely if wesnoth could render in 400x240, there  some easy upscaling would be possible
20120213 19:43:24< Ivanovic> the scaling itself is some hardware magics
20120213 19:43:34< Ivanovic> though some filters and whatnot can be applied
20120213 19:43:49< Ivanovic> you'd have to ask notaz in #openpandora for some "real" information about how it works
20120213 19:44:53< mordante> notaz is the hardware hacker isn't he?
20120213 19:45:02< Ivanovic> jepp
20120213 19:45:20< Ivanovic> he modified libsdl to allow usage of the hardware scaler and also does the major kernel work for the pandora
20120213 19:46:21< mordante> yeah his name was mentioned at the FOSDEM
20120213 19:46:33< mordante> just wanted to make sure I remembered the right person
20120213 19:46:39< Ivanovic> the code doing this magic stuff should all be available in the git repo: http://git.openpandora.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi
20120213 19:54:04< Ivanovic> http://git.openpandora.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=pandora-kernel.git;a=commit;h=0ed40f320acac5b656fe0554329b681e88b47e25
20120213 19:54:15< Ivanovic> looks like at least part of this stuff is done in the kernel itself
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20120213 20:09:11< shadowm> I saw the SDL 1.3 thing in Debian testing the other day. Is it going to be any good for us? How compatible is it with 1.2 at the API level?
20120213 20:09:45< boucman> shadowm: iirc it will add support for touch interfaces and gesture, so it might have some cool stuff for us
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20120213 20:15:16< mordante> Ivanovic, interesting, maybe look at it later
20120213 20:15:39< mordante> shadowm, I tested with it a while ago and it was not really compatible
20120213 20:16:01< mordante> some of our keyboard masks were heavily changed
20120213 20:16:30< mordante> I have a local branch that allows compilation with SDL 1.3, maybe I should commit some of the less intrusive patches
20120213 20:17:25< mordante> AI0867, Ivanovic I'll have a go at the fixed point hack
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20120213 21:52:03< mordante> Ivanovic, I cooked a rather hacky test patch http://paste.debian.net/156158/
20120213 21:52:26< mordante> the result is rather ugly, but at least it's good enough to test whether it speeds thing up
20120213 21:57:46< Ivanovic> okay, there is a speedup
20120213 21:58:03< Ivanovic> starting two brothers (after the load screen vanishes) only takes ~2s instead of ~5-6s
20120213 21:58:13< Ivanovic> though the initial map screen is still rather slow
20120213 21:58:20< Ivanovic> (and you are right, it looks ugly)
20120213 21:58:28< shadowm> 14:16:31 <AI0867> it would realy help to have some colored diffs though =/
20120213 21:58:33< shadowm> AI0867: colordiff
20120213 21:59:46< mordante> Ivanovic, a speedup of 3-4s is promising
20120213 22:00:07< mordante> not sure whether there are more calls to functions with floating point issues
20120213 22:00:09< Ivanovic> mordante: still 2s feels *bad* compared to the "instant" if no downscaling is required
20120213 22:00:41< Ivanovic> (i manually downscaled the images to not be larger than 800x480 (meaning eg 600x480 for the main map)
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20120213 22:01:14< Ivanovic> this resulted in eg two brothers basically showing instantly the story image stuff (right after initial cache building/loading is done)
20120213 22:01:29< mordante> Ivanovic, agreed that instantly is even better ;-)
20120213 22:01:54< Ivanovic> and the upscaling used at the initial gamestart (since 640x480 is stretched to 800x480) feels like instantly, too
20120213 22:03:10< Ivanovic> of course the same algorithm for downscaling is used basically everywhere in the game
20120213 22:03:19< Ivanovic> no matter if for the minimap, the right pane, portraits, ...
20120213 22:03:32< Ivanovic> so improvements there *do* matter a lot
20120213 22:04:42< mordante> jup so I think it would be a good idea to improve this code
20120213 22:05:41< Ivanovic> we clearly need more arm devices for wesnoth devs...
20120213 22:06:16< Ivanovic> we could use some fund to get a beagle board for every (core) wesnoth dev so that lowmem and "don't use float" situations can be tested more easily...
20120213 22:07:48< mordante> :-)
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20120213 22:13:24< mordante> Ivanovic, the delay of 2s is entirely in the scale function?
20120213 22:13:54< Ivanovic> mordante: i am 99.9% sure that it is related to the scale function
20120213 22:14:29< Ivanovic> as i said, if i manually scale down the images used it feels instant in going from load screen to story screen
20120213 22:15:00< Ivanovic> while there are about 2s delay between load screen and story screen of two brothers with images that got to be scaled down
20120213 22:15:28< Ivanovic> (i don't know how the scaling actually works and when it is applied, but the first scenario has 3 images which are at least in one dimension larger than 800x480
20120213 22:15:36< Ivanovic> two normal story screens and the wesnoth main map
20120213 22:15:47< mordante> things like portraits are also scaled so it's a bit odd that that looks rather fluent
20120213 22:16:02< Ivanovic> there is a tiny delay between clicking and the next image appearing
20120213 22:16:13< Ivanovic> which might just relate to the image scaling
20120213 22:17:09< Ivanovic> i fear that this scaling is worse with larger images and the main map from 1024x768 down to (no idea is aspect ratio is kept or not, but) either 640x480 or 800x480 is probably what hits worst of all
20120213 22:17:53< Ivanovic> and yes, switches between integer and float operations also appear to be "evil"
20120213 22:18:14< Ivanovic> (regarding the wiki page)
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20120213 22:20:28< mordante> yeah but most code is now using integer code
20120213 22:20:44< mordante> there are still some doubles in the code left
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20120213 22:21:18< mordante> also for dividing by a constant involves a mul and div by the same factor
20120213 22:21:34< mordante> so the code can be optimized a bit more
20120213 22:22:13< mordante> since it makes sense to use this code I't like to polish it first and then see how fast or slow it is
20120213 22:23:35< Ivanovic> as i said, there is already an improvement when starting two brothers
20120213 22:23:56< mordante> exactly 
20120213 22:23:59< Ivanovic> somehow it would be lovely to know if running a qemu emulating an arm plattform shows the same performance behaviour...
20120213 22:24:27< mordante> but I'm curious how much more it becomes once I optimise this proof-of-concept hack
20120213 22:25:53< mordante> no idea, but I assume qemu is optimised and uses the FPU/SSE of the CPU
20120213 22:27:05< Ivanovic> which should lead it to behave in similar ways to the "software only" solutions for floatingpoint on most "real" arm systems
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20120213 22:30:39< mordante> I still think testing on the real hardware is the best in order to test the performance
20120213 22:30:49< Ivanovic> sure
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20120213 23:14:22< mordante> I'm off night
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20120213 23:25:58-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20120213 23:32:17-!- Crab___ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120213 23:32:25-!- Crab___ is now known as Crab_
20120213 23:37:16-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Quit: Do it for joy and you can do it forever]
20120213 23:41:25-!- ancestral [~ancestral@67-6-36-251.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go sleeps kthxbai]
20120213 23:42:45-!- Upthorn [~ogmar@public-nat1.scc.losrios.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
--- Log closed Tue Feb 14 00:00:53 2012