--- Log opened Sun Mar 11 00:00:35 2012
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20120311 00:27:34< Crab___> mordante: thanks, fixed the wording to make clear that it's the same page
20120311 00:27:45< Crab___> Nephro: you were looking for me?
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20120311 00:49:48-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 166 bugs, 329 feature requests, 12 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20120311 02:01:09< vultraz> [06:39]	<Alarantalara>	vultraz: I take it your working editor is built with Xcode?
20120311 02:01:34< vultraz> yeah, I juts use -e when launching, and it works fine
20120311 02:01:58< vultraz> but the main game crashes with that string disposal error
20120311 02:08:04< Alarantalara> I don't suppose that you've tried deleting your user data?
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20120311 02:08:44< vultraz> my user data folder? no? why would I want that
20120311 02:20:36< vultraz> Alarantalara: I found another duplicate terrain id. http://pastebin.com/fguhmNFM should fix it
20120311 02:24:00< CIA-134> alarantalara * r53503 /trunk/data/core/terrain.cfg: make some more terrains have unique ids
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20120311 02:24:45< Alarantalara> because it can be a cause of campaigns crashing but the editor working, as I discovered today
20120311 02:25:05< Alarantalara> vultraz: ^ regarding deleting user data
20120311 02:25:13< vultraz> well, I can't even get to the titlescreen
20120311 02:25:38< vultraz> it gets as far at the loading bar disappearing, then., BOOM. crash 
20120311 02:26:32< Alarantalara> anyway, I renamed it for trunk, so if you rebuild now and that was a problem, it should work
20120311 02:26:44< Alarantalara> since it should now reference a different location
20120311 02:30:24< vultraz> ok, building now
20120311 02:34:00< vultraz> Alarantalara: BTW, how were the updated terrain tiles I PMed
20120311 02:34:37< Alarantalara> well, your correction had a spelling mistake, but r53503 covers your PM
20120311 02:35:10< Alarantalara> or paste, or whatever it is
20120311 02:35:40< vultraz> opps. typos.....
20120311 02:35:50< vultraz> sorry bout that
20120311 02:37:19< vultraz> though, I was sorta referring to the updated tile images I PMed (the village ones)
20120311 02:40:25< Alarantalara> They look fine, though I forgot about committing them
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20120311 03:18:14< CIA-134> ai0867 * r53504 /trunk/changelog: Fix a changelog entry
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20120311 09:30:09< Ivanovic> moin
20120311 09:35:33< vultraz> hey
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20120311 09:36:11< mordante> servus
20120311 09:36:46< Espreon> mordante: Ic grete þe.
20120311 09:37:00< mordante> hi Espreon 
20120311 09:37:19< Ivanovic> hi mordante
20120311 09:37:28< Ivanovic> mordante: so has compilation using the toolchain worked for you?
20120311 09:37:33< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20120311 09:37:54< mordante> Ivanovic, yes already started to look at the ARM CPU manual and the assembly output
20120311 09:37:55< Espreon> Ivanovic: And ic grete þe.
20120311 09:38:11< Ivanovic> mordante: great!
20120311 09:38:13< Ivanovic> hi Espreon
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20120311 09:38:50< mordante> their instruction set is interesting
20120311 09:39:12< Ivanovic> did it generate neon instructions?
20120311 09:39:34< mordante> nope, but didn't expect that
20120311 09:40:00< Ivanovic> then it should be rather straight forward ASM at least compared to x86 with the huge amount of special registers
20120311 09:41:29-!- mordante changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 166 bugs, 329 feature requests, 12 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120311 09:41:43< mordante> it is, but the set has some odd properties when you're used to x86
20120311 09:42:44< mordante> like every instruction is branched, can push and pop a set of registers and have some double operation instructions
20120311 09:43:11< mordante> the funny thing is that some of these operations are also added to x86
20120311 09:44:24< Ivanovic> the underliying hardware these days is a risc hardware, no matter if looking at arm or at x86 hardware
20120311 09:44:50< Ivanovic> that is: the x86 hardware "just" has a complete wrapper in front to translate the x86 instructions to risc instructions
20120311 09:45:21< Ivanovic> (which is one of the reasons why x86 can most likely never be as power effective these days as "plain" risc architectures like arm)
20120311 09:46:17< Ivanovic> so yeah, it makes sense these days to offer some of the underlying instructions directly on the ASM level, too (if the translation layer will otherwise generate those anyway)
20120311 09:48:06< mordante> of course it makes sense, but still nice to see ARM already has it
20120311 09:48:36< mordante> the only odd thing is, there is no division operator
20120311 09:48:42< Ivanovic> though keep in mind that arm has a little more recent asm anyway, since what you are looking at is specifically armv7a asm
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20120311 09:49:20< Ivanovic> at arm they are a little more liberal when it comes to changing the instruction set
20120311 09:49:53< Ivanovic> while at x86 they tend to do it using "extra" extensions like sse
20120311 09:54:20< mordante> yeah, but the conditional operation seems typical ARM and for about every instruction
20120311 09:55:51< Ivanovic> :)
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20120311 10:59:34< Ivanovic> Soliton: looking at http://wesnothd.wesnoth.org/ some diagrams seem to be broken/wrong
20120311 10:59:46< Ivanovic> meaning: we got significantly more users on stable than on old stable
20120311 11:00:01< Ivanovic> were the colors possibly mixed up for those to graphs showing all server info?
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20120311 11:03:02< Ivanovic> looks as if "old stable" and "stable" should be switched since ATM there are 120 users on the 1.10.x server which matches the displayed stats for "old stable"
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20120311 12:09:55< the_new_lipk> mordante: around?
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20120311 12:32:05< mordante> the_new_lipk, yes
20120311 12:32:06< Ivanovic> can someone lend me a helping hand to setup svn+ssh access to gna.org using a tunnel via some different server? (to get around some port blocks)
20120311 12:32:20< Ivanovic> what i basically want to do is:
20120311 12:32:49< Ivanovic> be able to get a checkout of svn+ssh://ivanovic@svn.gna.org/FOOOOOOO via my home network system
20120311 12:33:35< the_new_lipk> mordante: can I make a toggle button enabled in GuiWML?
20120311 12:34:03< Ivanovic> that is: i'd dail into "my.home.server" from external on say the port for https (443) and requests send to some "magic local port" are tunneled to gna.org with the correct accounts and stuff so that i can checkout and update my svn repos during the week, too
20120311 12:34:54< mordante> the_new_lipk, no normally the engine sets the status
20120311 12:35:26< mordante> Ivanovic, I don't run a server so can't help you
20120311 12:35:33< the_new_lipk> :(
20120311 12:38:06< Ivanovic> Soliton, Rhonda: do you maybe know this?
20120311 12:38:35< mordante> I think AI0867 also runs a server
20120311 12:39:02< mordante> and wouldn't it be possible to (ab)use wesnoth.org's server?
20120311 12:43:02< Ivanovic> mordante: i have to abuse my home server since the default ssh port is blocked
20120311 12:43:18< Ivanovic> i can connect to my home server using ssh on the https port, this works
20120311 12:43:40< Ivanovic> now i "just" need to setup the magic tunnel to say gna.org
20120311 12:45:12< Ivanovic> okay, got a setup!
20120311 12:45:18< mordante> ah ok I thought you needed a different server to do it
20120311 12:47:42< Ivanovic> nah, i already have a server i can access through the port blocks
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20120311 13:13:02< retr0virus> Ivanovic: You could just checkout from within ssh on your home server and copy the files to your local pc with scp - or is that no option?
20120311 13:14:06< Ivanovic> retr0virus: no option at all
20120311 13:14:13< Ivanovic> i managed to setup some tunneling now
20120311 13:18:03< Ivanovic> these simple 3 steps get the job done: http://pastebin.com/QUZxxtF5
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20120311 13:24:37< Rhonda> Ivanovic: know what?
20120311 13:25:13< Rhonda> ah, ssh tunnels
20120311 13:25:42 * Rhonda likes ssh -D
20120311 13:26:29< Rhonda> Others the ProxyCommand thing
20120311 13:27:01< Rhonda> Ivanovic: http://sshmenu.sourceforge.net/articles/transparent-mulithop.html
20120311 13:27:49< Rhonda> Your approach is one that requires a fair bit of manual work every time you want to connect. :)
20120311 13:42:33< Ivanovic> Rhonda: it is a one time effort though only for exactly one server and port at a time
20120311 13:43:04< Rhonda> "at a time" doesn't match with "one time effort"
20120311 13:43:25< Ivanovic> it is since i start the forwards with one script call
20120311 13:43:27< Ivanovic> ;)
20120311 13:47:08< Ivanovic> Rhonda: and in general i only need this for ports which are not http(s)
20120311 13:47:20< Ivanovic> so eg for the git protocol as well as svn+ssh this makes sense
20120311 13:47:30< Ivanovic> or for connecting to irc which would be on 6667
20120311 13:48:28< Rhonda> Right, then dig into ssh -D :)
20120311 13:48:34< Rhonda> And use the tsocks wrapper.
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20120311 14:14:34< CIA-134> mordante * r53506 /trunk/src/floating_point_emulation.hpp: 
20120311 14:14:34< CIA-134> Optimize the down scaling of an Sint32.
20120311 14:14:35< CIA-134> While reviewing the compiler output for the last commit, noticed the
20120311 14:14:35< CIA-134> code still used a division instead of a shift.
20120311 14:14:37< CIA-134> mordante * r53505 /trunk/src/floating_point_emulation.hpp: (log message trimmed)
20120311 14:14:37< CIA-134> Improve the multiply instruction.
20120311 14:14:37< CIA-134> It now keeps more resolution and is less prone to overflows (unless of
20120311 14:14:37< CIA-134> course the result overflows). The code is aimed at an ARM v7 so might be
20120311 14:14:38< CIA-134> slow on platforms that do not support an instruction for:
20120311 14:14:38< CIA-134> 32-bit signed * 32-bit signed = 64-bit signed
20120311 14:14:39< CIA-134> The alternative was to write code like for the division, but that would
20120311 14:24:30< Ivanovic> Rhonda: why use the tsocks wrapper and not directly connect setting stuff to "proxy" in eg konversation?
20120311 14:24:43< Ivanovic> yeah, there is/can be an option to just make use of a socks proxy...
20120311 14:29:02< vultraz> fendrin_: what's the usage=map thingy mean in mapfiles?
20120311 14:29:21< vultraz> I mean, is there anything else usage= could be?
20120311 14:30:14< Espreon> It's probably just there for show.
20120311 14:32:43< Ivanovic> vultraz: some overlay stuff can also be specified there
20120311 14:33:00< Ivanovic> so yeah, there is more than just one possible entry there ATM
20120311 14:35:07< Ivanovic> mordante: ping me once you want/need to me test if the changes help
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20120311 14:35:38< mordante> Ivanovic, I will
20120311 14:35:58< mordante> at the moment still looking at the compiler output for possible optimisations
20120311 14:36:18< Ivanovic> :)
20120311 14:36:33< Ivanovic> next week i might have working capabilities for svn up and ci
20120311 14:36:41< Ivanovic> so i should be able to somehow test stuff from trunk
20120311 14:39:35< mordante> would be nice
20120311 14:39:48< mordante> do you by any change have the ARM v7 Architecture Reference Manual?
20120311 14:40:51 * Espreon giggles a bit
20120311 14:41:00< mordante> ?
20120311 14:41:08< Espreon> Read your last line.
20120311 14:41:21< mordante> ah yeah I see
20120311 14:41:49 * vultraz does not see
20120311 14:42:04< Espreon> vultraz: ... Then you are truly blind.
20120311 14:42:22< Espreon> ... that must be why you are on that God-forsaken iland.
20120311 14:42:28< vultraz> oh
20120311 14:42:30< vultraz> change
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20120311 15:00:59< Rhonda> Ivanovic: Because it's extremely flexible and doesn't require changes to every single tool.
20120311 15:04:45< Ivanovic> Rhonda: but, uhm, i don't want *all* traffic routed through my home machine
20120311 15:04:55< Ivanovic> just the traffic which i don't get through at all otherwise
20120311 15:05:04< Espreon> Wait, what's going on?
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20120311 15:07:15< Ivanovic> Espreon: just me making sure that i have rather unrestricted internet access where i spend my time after work while not home during the weekends
20120311 15:07:49< Espreon> Why would it be restricted?
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20120311 15:10:34< Rhonda> Espreon: stupid providers
20120311 15:10:47< Rhonda> or workplace firewall restrictions
20120311 15:11:34< Espreon> I see.
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20120311 16:21:01< the_new_lipk> zookeeper: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36348
20120311 16:21:46< zookeeper> the_new_lipk, ah, looks excellent.
20120311 16:23:11-!- Alarantalara [~Adium@CPEc0c1c09e8055-CM00252eac6d62.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120311 16:23:21< zookeeper> the list isn't supposed to end up looking like that though, i presume? i mean the way each item is a list item which has a checkbox in it.
20120311 16:24:18< CIA-134> alarantalara * r53507 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_Rise_Of_Wesnoth/ (8 files in 2 dirs): 
20120311 16:24:18< CIA-134> use core campfire in The Rise of Wesntoh
20120311 16:24:18< CIA-134> incidentally converts maps to new format
20120311 16:25:51< the_new_lipk> no, it will be prettier, I'm just fed up with gui programming gor now :)
20120311 16:25:56< zookeeper> fair enough
20120311 16:26:47< the_new_lipk> also, UI is something which is *very* open to discussion
20120311 16:26:51< zookeeper> anyway, the sorting and organization of the list might warrant some further thought.
20120311 16:27:18< zookeeper> that is, we might want to sort the list based on which add-on the mod comes from, or have a sub-categories or something
20120311 16:27:41< zookeeper> i haven't really thought about that part yet so i have no specific ideas on that yet
20120311 16:29:50< vultraz> Alarantalara: I noticed something very confusing: there's both a Windmill embellishment and a Windmill village, and both look exactly the same 
20120311 16:30:07< Alarantalara> That they do. Blame Gambit
20120311 16:32:17< the_new_lipk> zookeeper: I'm not sure that we need a really complicated gui. It seems unlikely to me that one would install dozens of add-ons of this kind.
20120311 16:32:45< the_new_lipk> but let's wait what the others say :)
20120311 16:34:01< Gambit> s/blame/thank/
20120311 16:34:10< Alarantalara> Does this allow inserting events only, or would other scenario top-level tags work too?
20120311 16:34:47< timotei> Rhonda: so ssh -D forward *all* traffic on *all* ports through my home internet if I want?
20120311 16:35:00< timotei> I am actually looking at how to bypass the uni's "stupid" filters.
20120311 16:35:04< the_new_lipk> Alarantalara: events only
20120311 16:35:10< timotei> I've tried with VPN but that's blocked too :(
20120311 16:36:02< Alarantalara> so no mods that add an extra enemy side to a 2 player map, then
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20120311 16:37:05< Rhonda> timotei: yes, if you tell the apps to use it as socks proxy
20120311 16:37:19< Rhonda> and tsocks is a wrapper that does so transparently
20120311 16:37:28< the_new_lipk> Alarantalare: hmm... are you thinking about neutral monsters lurking around or what?
20120311 16:37:34< Alarantalara> something like that
20120311 16:37:43< Rhonda> unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work for flash inside your webbrowser, that crap likes to do its own stupid stuff
20120311 16:38:30< Rhonda> and, ssh on some outside box, potentially on port 443, isn't that complicated
20120311 16:38:44< the_new_lipk> technically, it's quite easy to support other tags, too, but I'd like to make sure that they never cause undesired interference
20120311 16:39:39< the_new_lipk> (and to prevent authors misusing game_mods for different things like they do with eras :))
20120311 16:39:49< the_new_lipk> *from
20120311 16:40:39< Alarantalara> From that point of view, side would probably be too risky given the id requirements
20120311 16:41:00< zookeeper> the_new_lipk, well, i was thinking more like a single add-on adding several mods; imagine a "alternative victory conditions" mod which could add all sorts of different objectives to choose from
20120311 16:41:34< zookeeper> the_new_lipk, Alarantalara, well, adding more sides would likely be pretty hairy to get to work right
20120311 16:41:34< Alarantalara> I could see [story] and [label] being useful for mods to describe changes
20120311 16:42:10< mordante> Ivanovic, did we ever try to compile with -fshort-double?
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20120311 16:42:50< zookeeper> the_new_lipk, anyway, one idea that you might or might not want to consider: mods which have a slider controlling the value of a given WML variable.
20120311 16:43:18< the_new_lipk> zookeeper: I was thinking about that, too
20120311 16:43:52< the_new_lipk> but I'm afraid it could interfere with variables inside the scenario
20120311 16:44:24< zookeeper> so, for example if you made a mod which makes the first player to collect X gold win, you could have a slider to control the gold limit as opposed to having to define several mods, each with a different limit.
20120311 16:44:32< the_new_lipk> Alarantalara: yup, those could be added probably
20120311 16:45:02< zookeeper> the_new_lipk, well, you can put the variables inside an array which has the same name as the id of the mod...
20120311 16:45:39< the_new_lipk> and I can prefix it with __DONT_USE_THIS_ID__ZZZ__ :)
20120311 16:45:45< zookeeper> so if your mod has id=mymod and then a slider which puts the value in a variable called myslider then you'd access that with $mymod.myslider
20120311 16:47:00< the_new_lipk> there're surely many dirty ways to minimize the probability of interference, it's rather a theoretical question whether we want to allow interference at all
20120311 16:47:11< Alarantalara> and then the scenario writer that wants to skip a certain mod, will purposefully destroy the values in a prestart event and the arms race will begin
20120311 16:47:21< zookeeper> i'd rather not worry much about interference
20120311 16:47:47< zookeeper> there's plenty of ways UMC can interfere with each other and it's always been up to the authors to isolate their own stuff properly
20120311 16:48:25< zookeeper> the main problem i can see is that some mods are simply going to be incompatible due to how their events function
20120311 16:48:58< zookeeper> and there's no way to automatically detect that, nor can mod authors know if there's another UMC mod somewhere which conflicts with theirs
20120311 16:49:33< the_new_lipk> how can, for example, two campaigns interfere in a way other than having the same id?
20120311 16:50:09< Alarantalara> the_new_lipk: forgetting an #ifdef and defining a scenario with the same id
20120311 16:50:20< zookeeper> by not isolating their stuff inside a campaign ifdef, mostly. but campaigns usually don't, it's much easier to do so in MP
20120311 16:50:51< zookeeper> since all MP content is guarded by the same MULTIPLAYER preproc symbol, images can easily conflict
20120311 16:51:40< zookeeper> ...because all MP add-ons are always binary_pathed simultaneously
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20120311 16:57:08< the_new_lipk> well, dunno... maybe we can try it...
20120311 16:57:42< the_new_lipk> and provide and elegant way to declare their addons incompatible with certain mods, if they really want
20120311 16:57:55< the_new_lipk> * for umc authors
20120311 16:58:37< CIA-134> alarantalara * r53508 /trunk/data/core/images/terrain/village/ (4 files): update villages grass backgrounds compliments of vultraz
20120311 16:58:57< vultraz> :D
20120311 16:59:19< the_new_lipk> (the main problem is that this is going to be a lot of painful gui coding)
20120311 16:59:22< the_new_lipk> :(
20120311 17:00:01< Alarantalara> Is there anything special about how multiplayer maps get updated?
20120311 17:00:32< the_new_lipk> is that addressed to me?
20120311 17:00:37< Alarantalara> They seem to show as add-ons on the multiplayer server, so I'm wondering if their development occurs elsewhere and we only get snapshots in core
20120311 17:00:45< Alarantalara> no, it's addressed to anyone
20120311 17:01:47< Alarantalara> I'm considering taking the time to replace all the manually placed campfires in Thousand Stings, but if it will just get overwritten, there's not much point
20120311 17:09:17< zookeeper> the_new_lipk, yeah, it wouldn't hurt to have a simple mechanism for just specifying mods that your mod is incompatible with; basically just a list of id's, and then the UI code would prevent you from choosing the incompatible mods at the same time.
20120311 17:09:59< zookeeper> not very important initially, but if you can make it easier to incorporate that later, that'd sound like a good idea.
20120311 17:10:39< zookeeper> Alarantalara, no, nothing special
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20120311 17:16:39< vultraz> Alarantalara: there're two campfires placed as a single frame with [item] in UtbS scen 5, but if you use the campfire terrain, they can't have the lightbeams over them anymore
20120311 17:17:38< Ivanovic> mordante: no idea
20120311 17:18:04< Alarantalara> vultraz: I've only replaced the ones placed with the ANIMATED_CAMPFIRE macro, so they're unaffected
20120311 17:18:33< anonymissimus> zookeeper, the_new_lipk the idea of depends/conflicts/recommends shadowm plans to code is a very similar concept
20120311 17:18:54< anonymissimus> though it is AFAIK done at installation time, not game creation
20120311 17:19:26< anonymissimus> the_new_lipk: a goot question to ask is probably why currently it is not possible to use several era at once
20120311 17:20:13< ancestral> Espreon: http://r.wesnoth.org/p523112
20120311 17:20:37< anonymissimus> it is probably since the engine assumes that eras use units; however I can see absolutely no reason why e.g. Era_Khalifate and Diplomacy_Era should be incompatible.
20120311 17:21:04 * vultraz gapes at the number of {ANIMATED_CAMPFIRE}s in Thousand Stings
20120311 17:21:46< anonymissimus> so your "game mod" type of addon appears the same as a "require_era=no" era, which only adds scenario events
20120311 17:23:48< mordante> Ivanovic, it would be interesting to know whether that option improves the speed or not (without any patches)
20120311 17:25:09< vultraz> Alarantalara: if you're not working on it, I can replace them (campfires in Thousand Stings)
20120311 17:28:50< CIA-134> alarantalara * r53509 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/05_A_Subterranean_Struggle.cfg: animate static campfires in Under the Burning Suns - cannot use terrain due to lighting
20120311 17:30:22< Alarantalara> given the appearance there, it probably makes more sense to remove the lit terrain and replace it with time areas
20120311 17:30:34< anonymissimus> the_new_lipk: I think adding the events in mutiplayer_connect is wrong; look at where/how the events form teh eras are added
20120311 17:33:08< anonymissimus> we could put some "use at own risk" warning there...such as "be aware that using several mods at the same time may conflict and ruin your game" perhaps
20120311 17:36:20< Gallaecio> Hmm…
20120311 17:36:25< Gallaecio> sudo pacman[user@localhost ~]$ wesnoth -v
20120311 17:36:25< Gallaecio> Battle for Wesnoth v1.10.1
20120311 17:36:25< Gallaecio> Started on Sun Mar 11 17:35:48 2012
20120311 17:36:25< Gallaecio> Battle for Wesnoth 1.10.1
20120311 17:36:38< Gallaecio> Is it normal to get the version twice?
20120311 17:36:40< Alarantalara> vultraz: I think I'll leave Thousand Stings alone for now. It's more likely to change in other ways and diff doesn't work very well with maps
20120311 17:39:17< Alarantalara> and the multiplayer maps change in stable sometimes
20120311 17:42:56< vultraz> 'k
20120311 17:50:26< vultraz> guess I should get started on the soundsource and items editor tools icons
20120311 17:52:35< Espreon> ancestral: Ugh... I hate it when people get ideas.
20120311 17:53:45< ancestral> The issue I see is that special attacks are currently nouns, verbs and adjectives
20120311 17:54:14< ancestral> Traits are good, they're consistent, entirely adjectives
20120311 17:58:59< vultraz> ughh
20120311 17:59:04< vultraz> I such at shading 
20120311 17:59:07< vultraz> suck*
20120311 18:01:43< Espreon> ancestral: I think I might prefer a mix of two and only two. I dunno. I honestly hate that someone cared enough to make a post about this, but whatever.
20120311 18:02:06< Espreon> I don't want to get involved with it at the moment.
20120311 18:02:06< ancestral> Why the disdain?
20120311 18:02:10< ancestral> That's fine
20120311 18:02:33< Espreon> I dunno. I just don't want to deal with it.
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20120311 18:03:53< vultraz> meh
20120311 18:03:57< vultraz> Be back later
20120311 18:11:22< Espreon> ancestral: It's no longer "stone", BTW. It's "petrify". And I hate the other suggestions.
20120311 18:11:32< Espreon> ... for this special.
20120311 18:12:14< ancestral> Then we have outdated documentation (no surprise)
20120311 18:12:55< Espreon> Yup.
20120311 18:15:23< ancestral> There are more than a few things that annoy me about the current wording
20120311 18:15:34< ancestral> "backstab" itself is a modern term, coined during WWI
20120311 18:15:45< Espreon> Big deal.
20120311 18:15:58< Espreon> The characters aren't discussing it.
20120311 18:16:09< ancestral> No, but it is a fantasy game
20120311 18:16:18< the_new_lipk> anonymissimus: thanks, I'll look up that
20120311 18:16:21< Espreon> As long as it doesn't sound futuristic, I'm fine with it.
20120311 18:16:40< Espreon> ancestral: Honestly, if you wanna thing like that, then we'd have to purge A LOT more words.
20120311 18:16:43< Espreon> *think like
20120311 18:17:02< ancestral> As long as it sounds like it's an attack or it's describing an attack, then I'm fine with it… but not both
20120311 18:17:22< ancestral> Espreon: Purge what else?
20120311 18:17:34< Espreon> A fuckload of words.
20120311 18:18:02< the_new_lipk> anonymissimus: regarding eras: the reason why can be only one used at a time imo is that eras are meant to be thematic setting for the game
20120311 18:18:18< ancestral> Espreon: You're not being specific. That's fine if you don't want to discuss it.
20120311 18:18:35< ancestral> It's not an important issue
20120311 18:18:55< Espreon> ancestral: Do I really have to be more specific?
20120311 18:19:13< ancestral> Espreon: What "fuckload of words?" I don't know what you're talking about
20120311 18:19:21< ancestral> I'm just talking about special attacks
20120311 18:19:36< Espreon> ancestral: And why must these be treated specially?
20120311 18:19:42< Espreon> Hmmmm?
20120311 18:19:51< ancestral> It gets printed in the game
20120311 18:19:57< Espreon> Big deal.
20120311 18:19:58< ancestral> Visually to the user
20120311 18:20:02< Espreon> Again, big deal.
20120311 18:20:12< Espreon> A lot of other "anacrhonistic" words get shown to the player.
20120311 18:20:19< Espreon> *anachronistic
20120311 18:21:32< ancestral> Feel free to discard my pet peeve about anachronistic words
20120311 18:21:58< ancestral> The consistent verbiage is what I'm focusing on
20120311 18:22:20< ancestral> "Marksman" is a person
20120311 18:22:23< Espreon> Very well.
20120311 18:22:36< ancestral> It's not a skill, a trait. Marksmanship is a skill
20120311 18:22:55< Espreon> Come up with a nice, refined proposal and I'll be happy to discuss it.
20120311 18:23:03< ancestral> Very well
20120311 18:25:34< Espreon> ancestral: And please, drop the thesaurus vomiting. I hate it when people do that.
20120311 18:25:38< fendrin_> hello
20120311 18:25:43< Espreon> fendrin_: Hello.
20120311 18:26:00< mordante> hi fendrin_ 
20120311 18:26:38< Ivanovic> mordante: is the resulting asm looking this much better with the flag?
20120311 18:26:44< Ivanovic> i am about to leave for neu-isenburg
20120311 18:27:03< Ivanovic> i might be in the mood to test things once there (not sure yet!)
20120311 18:29:14< mordante> Ivanovic, yes it uses f32 instead of f64 types
20120311 18:29:34< mordante> like to see how much that differs, but no hurry
20120311 18:29:50< Ivanovic> the test would be some test of image scaling?
20120311 18:29:59< Ivanovic> could you please tell me the exact invocation again?
20120311 18:30:26< mordante> now looking at AI0867's patch and why it works, the bad thing about it that it scales twice so no production solution
20120311 18:31:05< mordante> time ./wesmage -omain.png -fscale:800,480 wesnoth.png, should do the trick
20120311 18:36:26< Ivanovic> i am about to leave now, might/should be back again around 10pm local time
20120311 18:36:27< Ivanovic> cu
20120311 18:37:08< mordante> ok bye
20120311 18:38:39< anonymissimus> the_new_lipk: thematic setting ? I don't think so; rather the problem that the engine can't automatically check for whether two eras are compatible with each other
20120311 18:39:19< anonymissimus> or does not...because it's supposedly too complicated or too many things could go wrong
20120311 18:40:36< anonymissimus> a thing like a whitelist may be interesting though; the author or an addon could decide which other eras his era should be compatible with
20120311 18:41:07< anonymissimus> then I could allow for ciplomacy era in era khalifate for instance
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20120311 18:45:35< the_new_lipk> anonymissimus: anyways, there're currently two types of eras: eras providing units and eras alternating gameplay
20120311 18:46:13< the_new_lipk> unit-providers are usually incompatible with each other but not with rule-modifiers
20120311 18:46:59< the_new_lipk> and rule-modifiers usually don't conflict with each other either
20120311 18:47:28< the_new_lipk> so it sounds like a good idea (to me) to separate the two kinds of eras
20120311 18:48:02< the_new_lipk> it's also cleaner to have separate tags, since these are two *completely* different usages
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20120311 18:50:29< the_new_lipk> and a whitelist would never get any near to complete
20120311 18:52:34< anonymissimus> a whitelist has a very high chance of making sure no problems will occur in the game at least
20120311 18:53:36< anonymissimus> the people on the mp server will try out all sorts of combinations, and they don't understand why this or that won't work and get pissed off
20120311 18:55:53< the_new_lipk> assuming that there will lots of combinations which won't work which is far from proven...
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20120311 19:29:22< fendrin_> hi noy
20120311 19:29:31< fendrin_> noy: You tried to reach me.
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20120311 19:33:33< fendrin_> I have a design problem to solve.
20120311 19:34:30< fendrin_> What do I do with editor tools which are not bound to a palette?
20120311 19:35:19< fendrin_> The "Place starting position" tool for example. It needs no palette. 
20120311 19:44:21< fendrin_> Shall I display the default palette (most likely the terrain one) no matter that the chosen terrain has no influence of the current action?
20120311 19:44:38< fendrin_> Or just no palette.
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20120311 20:58:30< boucman> anonymissimus: around ?
20120311 21:04:12< anonymissimus> boucman: what's up ?
20120311 21:04:43< boucman> about https://gna.org/patch/?3176 are you fine with his approch ?
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20120311 21:15:12< Ivanovic> re
20120311 21:23:10< anonymissimus> boucman: not with the patches are currently
20120311 21:23:20< anonymissimus> or teh remove fog set fog one
20120311 21:24:53< boucman> ok, so the patch 0-4 we can ignore, that was his original submission
20120311 21:25:26< boucman> patch 15343 is a one-liner that changes the way :shroud works, not sure if we need to take it, doesn't really matter
20120311 21:25:53< boucman> patch 15346 seems to be an independant optimization
20120311 21:26:49< boucman> so, his current approche (i.e what he explains in his before-last comment) is it ok with you ? he is waiting for our go before implementing it
20120311 21:27:16< boucman> (i am not sure what you mean by "remove fog set fog one"
20120311 21:28:43< anonymissimus> the "remove fog set fog one" is the one which adds these wml handler functions
20120311 21:29:25< anonymissimus> wml-fig.diff
20120311 21:29:31< anonymissimus> wml-fog.diff
20120311 21:29:32< boucman> k, looking
20120311 21:30:01< anonymissimus> well, my most important point was that about that inline side= shouldn't be used here I think
20120311 21:30:22< boucman> you want an SSF instead ?
20120311 21:31:15< anonymissimus> in an extra filter_side tag yes
20120311 21:31:58< anonymissimus> because at some spot the remaining inline side= in remove_sroud etc might get deprecated by someone who like breaking compatibility more than me
20120311 21:33:30< anonymissimus> and I follow the thread pretty loosely, and haven't understood the later parts of his last-but-one post, so you get not very thorough statements from me here
20120311 21:33:36< boucman> ok, so could you post a comment stating that, and saying that once the SSF is good we are fine with the syntax ?
20120311 21:33:49< boucman> at that point i'll take over and do the review/testing etc...
20120311 21:36:40< anonymissimus> I think zookeeper also has an opinion about it
20120311 21:36:51< boucman> zookeeper: around ?
20120311 21:37:41< zookeeper> yep
20120311 21:38:32< boucman> I am looking for a syntax for fog handling in WML that would please everybody
20120311 21:38:32< zookeeper> reading...
20120311 21:38:37< boucman> oh, ok good
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20120311 21:40:15< zookeeper> urgh, so complicated
20120311 21:40:42< boucman> heh, at least we hae someone that's ready to deal with it :)
20120311 21:44:41< zookeeper> and it seems he's pretty well aware of all sorts of corner cases, so...
20120311 21:45:41< boucman> ok, so we go with anonymissimus's last comment and go ?
20120311 21:45:48< boucman> Espreon: you're fine with that too ?
20120311 21:47:34< zookeeper> so, yeah, i guess inline SSF isn't a good idea
20120311 21:53:24< anonymissimus> yeah I've made a comment about my most important points
20120311 21:53:51< anonymissimus> I hope I'm assuming correctly what he intends to do
20120311 21:54:37< anonymissimus> but anyway, based on what the guy writes he knows what he's doing
20120311 21:57:51< anonymissimus> btw, I hope his patch(es) make only the change that areas no longer visible due to current unit placements curing a player's turn are no longer re-fogged but still lifts the fog off locations which are seen at some spot during a player's turn ?
20120311 21:58:19< anonymissimus> and not requires to click "update shroud now"
20120311 21:58:36< anonymissimus> but perhaps I'm just confused and don't actually get what this is about ;)
20120311 22:02:43< zookeeper> dunno, can't parse what you just said ;)
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20120311 22:07:28< anonymissimus> zookeeper: well, imagine a player has his turn in a game with fog an moves around his units
20120311 22:08:23< anonymissimus> at the end of his turn, all locations which one of his units was able to see at any time during all that is cleared of fog - is that what his approach is about ?
20120311 22:09:09< anonymissimus> that is the question, or what I understand, based on what I read
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20120311 22:10:55< zookeeper> umm
20120311 22:10:59< boucman> yes it is, unless WML changes stuff, IIUC WML can order an "immediate refog" mid-turn
20120311 22:11:59< zookeeper> i don't know if you're talking about the general idea of what he's doing or some particular detail.
20120311 22:12:35< boucman> ok, so there are two sides
20120311 22:12:47< zookeeper> he's just making fog act so that if you move a unit, nothing gets re-fogged.
20120311 22:12:58< boucman> 1) areas where fog is removed are not refoged until end of turn (unless WML) 
20120311 22:13:01< zookeeper> the tags are just extra tools to go along with that
20120311 22:13:26< boucman> 2) the way that WML fogs/unfogs area is currently done with fake units IIUC, he wants to add some real tags for that
20120311 22:13:31< boucman> yes that's it
20120311 22:13:53< anonymissimus> "he's just making fog act so that if you move a unit, nothing gets re-fogged.": this is a simpler way of expressing it :)
20120311 22:14:25< boucman> :)
20120311 22:14:49< anonymissimus> and will remove_fog fire sighted events as needed ?
20120311 22:14:50< boucman> yeah, zookeeper explained it faster and better, but I was typing and didn't notice in time
20120311 22:15:12< boucman> should it ? should it be configurable ?
20120311 22:15:16< anonymissimus> that ia also na issues with remove_shroud and update shroud now
20120311 22:15:24< boucman> k
20120311 22:15:28< zookeeper> urgh, sighted events...
20120311 22:16:48< anonymissimus> I think Crab should have a look at it as well
20120311 22:17:50< boucman> anonymissimus: because of sighted events ?
20120311 22:18:54< anonymissimus> well, Crab once wanted to create a generic patch which was supposed to apply to all wml action which have to do with shroud/fog which possible needs to be lifted and accordingly fire sighetd events
20120311 22:19:00< anonymissimus> or something along those lines
20120311 22:19:10< boucman> i'd rather not have the submitter go through another round of criticism, so i'll say that we are happy with the "remove fog later" and the WML syntax you propose, that we don't know about sighted events yet but we'll come back to him about that, maybe as a follow up patch
20120311 22:20:26< anonymissimus> well alright; in fact, I want that guy to become a coder
20120311 22:20:42< boucman> so do I :)
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20120311 22:27:49< Espreon> boucman: Wait, what?
20120311 22:28:22< boucman> Espreon: it should be compatible with your map IIUC
20120311 22:28:33< Espreon> What should be?
20120311 22:28:41< Espreon> I hate reading walls of backlog.
20120311 22:28:48< boucman> we are still discussing the fog patch
20120311 22:28:54< Espreon> I know.
20120311 22:28:54< boucman> i'll sum it up for you
20120311 22:29:07< boucman> 1) areas where fog is removed are not refoged until end of turn (unless WML)
20120311 22:29:10< boucman> oh, good
20120311 22:29:24< boucman> so, are you ok with it ?
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20120311 22:37:24< Espreon> boucman: Yes.
20120311 22:37:33< boucman> good :)
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20120311 22:39:44< CIA-134> alarantalara * r53510 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/05_A_Subterranean_Struggle.cfg: 
20120311 22:39:44< CIA-134> apply some code simplification done for Eftboren to A Subterranean Struggle
20120311 22:39:44< CIA-134> there is still a lot left to do for this scenario
20120311 22:46:34< anonymissimus> I just made a test and checked the code...remove_shroud does at present also not fire sighetd events :P
20120311 22:47:41< boucman> ok
20120311 22:48:32< anonymissimus> so we don't need to bother him with it now...although I Imagine he would want to work on them :)
20120311 22:48:56< boucman> I can see use cases for both actually
20120311 22:49:13< anonymissimus> yes, a fire_event= parameter would be nice
20120311 22:49:34< boucman> indeed, but let's keep it for a follow-up
20120311 22:49:42< anonymissimus> but this overall area is so buggy I don't dare touching it
20120311 22:53:28< anonymissimus> I wonder whether the MP people will like it though...did you ask Noy about his wishes ?
20120311 22:55:06< boucman> yes, he said it seemed more logical to him, though advanced players are used to remembering... so he's fine with it
20120311 22:55:15< boucman> he was more worried about SP and WML
20120311 22:59:33< CIA-134> alarantalara * r53511 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/05_A_Subterranean_Struggle.cfg: stop some more units from spawning on cave walls
20120311 22:59:56< anonymissimus> alright
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20120311 23:48:00< fendrin_> boucman, anonymissimus
20120311 23:48:07< fendrin_> Alarantalara: 
20120311 23:48:10< boucman> yes ?
20120311 23:48:46< fendrin_> Do you have an opinion about my editor palette questions?
20120311 23:49:57< fendrin_> My flatmate likes to not display useless gui parts.
20120311 23:50:27< boucman> fendrin_: I probably missed the question...
20120311 23:50:41< anonymissimus> no
20120311 23:51:00< fendrin_> It is some lines above but I can repeat it as well.
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20120311 23:51:49< boucman> i'll look
20120311 23:52:27< boucman> ok, gimme a sec
20120311 23:54:32< boucman> fendrin_: I think the best (but probably most complicated) way to do it would be to replace the palette with an empty space if there is no "tool option" or another type of tool option if it makes sense
20120311 23:54:44< boucman> for instance a side selection for the start position tool
20120311 23:54:50< boucman> a unit selection for the unit placement
20120311 23:54:51< boucman> etc...
20120311 23:55:11< boucman> but leaving it as is doesn't look like a huge design flaw
20120311 23:55:19< boucman> a small one yes, but not a serious one
20120311 23:55:50< fendrin_> boucman: The unit palette is already working.
20120311 23:56:11< fendrin_> I can provide a screenshot.
20120311 23:56:49< anonymissimus> wesbot: seen Oleg
20120311 23:56:49< wesbot> anonymissimus: The person with the nick Oleg 8d 15h ago they left with the message: Ping timeout: 265 seconds
20120311 23:57:09< boucman> hmm
20120311 23:57:38< boucman> fendrin_: well if the palette is replaced with something else for some tools, you might want to erase it for tools where it is not related...
--- Log closed Mon Mar 12 00:00:35 2012