--- Log opened Mon Mar 19 00:00:32 2012
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20120319 01:47:56< Danthar> night all
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20120319 03:30:32< CIA-69> ai0867 * r53558 /trunk/data/tools/wmlxgettext: Disable the python wmlxgettext script so people don't spend days trying to figure out why it doesn't do what it should
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20120319 03:34:18< maypri> #wesnoth-dev
20120319 03:34:55< Espreon> And you are here! Welcome.
20120319 03:35:13< maypri> I am, hello! 
20120319 03:35:48< Espreon> Did you need something?
20120319 03:36:33< maypri> Well, I am looking to apply to be an intern via GSoC and I'm just exploring around... 
20120319 03:36:41< maypri> This is my first year applying so I don't really know what I'm doing
20120319 03:38:42< Espreon> Ah, I see, I see.
20120319 03:39:16< Espreon> maypri: Are you familiar with Wesnoth?
20120319 03:40:17< maypri> Espreon: no, I am not, it looks really impressive though
20120319 03:40:54< Espreon> Ah, I see. Well, if you feel most inclined to work on Wesnoth. I'd take the time to become familiar with it if I were you.
20120319 03:41:49< maypri> Okie dokie, where would you suggest that I start? 
20120319 03:42:13< Espreon> Well, I'd start by downloading the game and playing it. ;)
20120319 03:43:14< Espreon> As for ideas on what to do for a project, you could always read the GSoC ideas article in our wiki.
20120319 03:43:38< Espreon> maypri: There's also this if you wanna jump in the codebase: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding
20120319 03:44:26< maypri> Cool, thank you. Are you one of the mentors then? 
20120319 03:44:41< Espreon> Nope!
20120319 03:44:57< maypri> Just hanging around? 
20120319 03:45:09< Espreon> Nah, I'm just one of the devs that don't code.
20120319 03:45:17< Espreon> ... in the "real" languages at least.
20120319 03:45:43-!- shadowm changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Wesnoth accepted in GSoC 2012 | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 168 bugs, 330 feature requests, 12 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120319 03:46:40< maypri> dev? 
20120319 03:47:03< Espreon> Developer!
20120319 03:48:03< maypri> I didn't know you could be a developer who doesn't code, interesting.. .
20120319 03:48:41< Espreon> Well, I dabble in WML, but no one cares about WML...®
20120319 03:48:53< maypri> aw, I'm sorry
20120319 03:48:54< shadowm> Pretty much anyone with commit access or some other staff role here is called a "developer".
20120319 03:48:57< Espreon> I also do other things.
20120319 03:49:06< Espreon> Yeah, what shadowm said.
20120319 03:49:18< maypri> oh okay, good to know
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20120319 04:26:24< shadowm> mordante: do I have to learn to use latex to read this hopefully simple proposal then? http://pastebin.com/htrYKxeM
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20120319 04:31:15< shadowm> never mind; Espreon helped me by sending me a compiled pdf
20120319 04:32:34< shadowm> ... if you are going to write a formal paper with a proposal referencing me in it you might as well use my real name, don't you think :p
20120319 04:33:19< Espreon> mordante: Also, I would write out your name instead of just using "M. de Wever".
20120319 04:33:57< Espreon> If you're gonna use a prætentious format, you might as well write the damn thing well and make the output actually look nice.
20120319 04:35:11< shadowm> I guess I'll discuss the substance of the proposal when you are around
20120319 04:35:34< shadowm> shame this isn't a ML topic as I originally wanted
20120319 04:35:51< Espreon> ... but I don't know anything about making anything look nice in LaTeX (excuse me for my being unable to render it "properly"™), so I should probably shut up.
20120319 04:35:59< shadowm> (or a forum topic; any medium which would allow for peer review and brainstorming)
20120319 04:36:51< Espreon> Some prefer Google Docs.
20120319 04:37:41< shadowm> I don't like Google Crap beyond the essential
20120319 04:37:53< shadowm> that is, a web search engine, and my gmail account
20120319 04:37:56< Espreon> Hmmmm, then I don't know anything.
20120319 04:38:02< Espreon> *know of
20120319 04:38:10< Espreon> Heh heh.
20120319 04:38:36< shadowm> hence ML or forums, which is what I would have done 
20120319 04:38:44< Espreon> Ay ay ay... "Wescamp integration" ... "Asio"...
20120319 04:39:34< shadowm> and in fact, I am still going to do, since I'd like to land the dependency tiers implementation on trunk campaignd as a back-up measure
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20120319 04:40:09< shadowm> as soon as I figure out how to implement the client-side mechanism in a very generic fashion without breaking my cranium in the process
20120319 04:40:22< Espreon> Why can't we use bzip?
20120319 04:42:26< shadowm> uses mre CPU time
20120319 04:42:32< Espreon> I thought so.
20120319 04:43:20< Espreon> mordante: Will we still go with the idea of allowing people to use custom images for their add-ons?
20120319 04:46:24< Espreon> mordante: Why would "translatable=" only be able to be set to a positive value if "language=en_US"? That's just mean...
20120319 04:47:14< Espreon> And yes, I assume that the default value of "translatable=" will still be "no".
20120319 04:50:59< Espreon> mordante: If I were thinking what you're thinking, I'd make the criterion for allowing "translatable=" to be set to a positive value that "language=" just be Modern English of any sort.
20120319 04:52:02< Espreon> and even that's not acceptable, at least en_GB, en_US, and en@shaw (yes, Shavian isn't hard to learn to read, people).
20120319 04:52:17< Espreon> *even if that's
20120319 04:53:47< Reganeet> hey guys, I'm a student who is interested in wesnoth in gsoc. I know some python and c, but not c++. I looked through the list of ideas, and it seems that c++/lua is essential to each one...
20120319 04:55:23< Espreon> Hello. Yeah, C's only good around here if you need to mess with the Lua source code... and Python's really only good around here for some of our tools.
20120319 04:57:55< Reganeet> uhh..it seems i should come back after i learn c++
20120319 04:58:08< Espreon> mordante: "an umc"... yeah, I don't think any of us pronounce "UMC" as a word...
20120319 04:58:20< Espreon> ... and if anyone does... yeah...
20120319 04:58:21< Espreon> :(
20120319 04:58:38< shadowm> Espreon: hi
20120319 04:58:39< Espreon> Reganeet: I suppose so. I wouldn't know, though.
20120319 04:58:46< shadowm> I actually spell the letters.
20120319 04:59:12< Espreon> Yeah, I just read it as an initialism.
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20120319 05:00:50< Espreon> mordante: And yeah, that's all I have to say so far.
20120319 05:04:28< Espreon> mordante: Actually, I do have something else to say. If something goes wrong in X add-on's repository at WesCamp, it'd be nice if something were sent to the e-mail address specified, telling whomever what went wrong.
20120319 05:04:43< Espreon> ... that way, AI0867 and I don't have to nag anyone.
20120319 05:05:00< Espreon> ... And yes, I haven't really done any nagging so far, and I don't feel like doing any...
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20120319 06:49:49-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Wesnoth accepted in GSoC 2012 | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 170 bugs, 330 feature requests, 12 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20120319 07:44:33< Ivanovic> boucman, gabba, fendrin, everyone else who wants to mentor: please either apply via the gsoc web interface or tell me your linkid to be used
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20120319 07:45:15< Ivanovic> you should be able to send an application request from this page: http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/google/gsoc2012/wesnoth
20120319 07:45:23< Ivanovic> just scroll down beneath the org description
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20120319 10:13:00< SongQ> Hi! I'm a fresher here
20120319 10:13:51< SongQ> and I have some questions about applying for GSoC...
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20120319 12:07:35< frank4591> hey, I wanna code for Wesnoth in Gsoc..its my first time in Gsoc..right now developing game in unity3d..i think i can go ahead..can anyone help me.!! 
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20120319 12:18:07< Rhonda> frank4591: You might want to check out the topic and read the link there
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20120319 12:25:19< frank4591> Rhonda: I did check the topics and i am interested in few topic .so need to discuss ahead
20120319 12:28:21< Crab_> frank4591: do you want to discuss now? or do you prefer to write a small description first?
20120319 12:28:25< Rhonda> Then start to discuss.  Noone can help you if you don't describe your issue.
20120319 12:29:04< frank4591> Crab_: Either way would be fine for me 
20120319 12:29:34< Crab_> then, let's talk a bit here (if you're got time now). So, what idea you'd want to propose?
20120319 12:30:25< frank4591> well what i found from the topic is that ..there is need for refinement in Ai
20120319 12:30:44< frank4591> i have never played wesnoth before
20120319 12:31:13< Rhonda> shame on you!  :P
20120319 12:31:17< Crab_> yes, we have a couple AI-related projects. They are mostly about things that we know can be improved.
20120319 12:31:33< frank4591> but for AI some diplomacy can me implemented where there could be some kind of peace treaty between enemy and player
20120319 12:31:51< frank4591> Rhonda: mabe not :)
20120319 12:32:12< Crab_> frank4591: there was a 'diplomacy' idea in 2010, check out http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_New_Alliance_System
20120319 12:32:52< Crab_> none of the proposals were accepted, but that's because of the competition those students had, and not because the idea inherently was 'bad'
20120319 12:33:23< frank4591> just checking out
20120319 12:33:46< Crab_> frank4591: so, if you're thinking of adding some 'peace treaty' stuff, then check out this page and the student pages, that would give you information about what was proposed and discussed before
20120319 12:35:21< Crab_> then write a wiki page about your proposal
20120319 12:36:23< frank4591> and for the aggression of AI being more offensive or defensive would depend on the relation with player
20120319 12:36:40< frank4591> Crab_ : ohk
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20120319 12:38:31< Crab_> frank4591: won't work directly with 'aggression' (this is a specific parameter which affects the behavior of AI while near the enemy), but this can be implemented via AI 'goal's - that would lead the AI moving its units to attack a particular side.
20120319 12:39:20< Crab_> frank4591: note that a lot of systems can be already implemented using wesnoth's scripting language, WML
20120319 12:39:38< Crab_> frank4591: so, then, two years ago, we were looking for some 'bigger' system.
20120319 12:40:13< Crab_> for example, in current 'ai controller' menu (available in some scenarios), there's already "concentrate on defeating player X" command.
20120319 12:40:42< frank4591> k
20120319 12:43:44< Crab_> frank4591: ok, good luck, then. ask questions, if you'll want to know anything else.
20120319 12:44:54< frank4591> Crab_:cWell ,i actually dont know much about the game play of wesnoth,so will try it first and 'll come with better point on my topic
20120319 12:44:59< frank4591> and thanks for help
20120319 12:45:03< Crab_> frank4591: ok. enjoy wesnoth :)
20120319 12:45:26< frank4591> :)yeah..
20120319 12:51:48< zookeeper> i rather fail to see the point of an engine-side diplomacy system when it can for all intents and purposes be done in WML
20120319 12:52:23< zookeeper> the only thing which might be harder in WML is to make the AI use the system sensibly, but frankly that'd be an overly ambitious goal anyway no matter what language it's implemented in.
20120319 12:53:59< zookeeper> also, such a feature would essentially be a gimmick anyway, since it could only be used in very few scenarios.
20120319 12:58:13< frank4591> zookeeper: what i am thinking from the idea list mentioned for GSoc,that when Ai feels that a player could be threat to him and he will be defeated ,he could sign a treaty like that or improve his defensive tactics ,
20120319 12:59:48< zookeeper> well, "improve his defensive tactics" and not limiting it to "almost defeated" situations... that would be a good idea. http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_AI_Defense_Strategies_2012
20120319 13:01:23< zookeeper> features like the ability to sign peace treaties would be unusable in about 90% of the game, whereas better AI behaviour in general would improve the game across the board
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20120319 13:04:26< frank4591> yeah i meant to be much of the same thing,to make AI think and improve  more in defense and somewhat in diplomacy to control its present status in case if he is not that powerful at that point of time. 
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20120319 13:05:34< zookeeper> all right
20120319 13:05:48< zookeeper> i'd suggest dropping the diplomacy aspect entirely, and simply focusing on better defense strategies
20120319 13:07:13< frank4591> ohk..!!yeah
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20120319 13:09:47< zookeeper> anyway, as you said the first thing to do is to go and play the game a bit ;)
20120319 13:11:12< frank4591> yup..!!starting that only..!:)
20120319 13:17:00< Gallaecio> Anyone around able to fix an i18n issue? I suspect it is just a missing _, but because it is a double string (_ "string" + "string") I am not sure.
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20120319 13:26:15< Gallaecio> Ok, confirmed.
20120319 13:28:52< Gallaecio> zookeeper: hey, could you please commit this? http://paste.kde.org/442832/
20120319 13:29:43< Gallaecio> Nevermind, will fill a bug report.
20120319 13:29:59< zookeeper> i can do it
20120319 13:30:12< Gallaecio> Great, thanks :)
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20120319 13:31:32< CIA-69> zookeeper * r53559 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/chapter3/09_Bounty_Hunters.cfg: Added missing translation marker, as reported by Gallaecio.
20120319 13:33:44< CIA-69> zookeeper * r53560 /branches/1.10/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/chapter3/09_Bounty_Hunters.cfg: Ported r53559 to 1.10.
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20120319 13:43:04< jg2> What is the technique that Wesnoth uses to work across firewalls for multiplayer games? OpenVPN, n2n,... ?
20120319 13:44:24< zookeeper> didn't you get the answer the last time?
20120319 13:44:29< zookeeper> <Ivanovic> there is no vpn or anything like this involved
20120319 13:44:30< zookeeper> <Ivanovic> just plain tcp messages
20120319 13:44:35< zookeeper> <Ivanovic> sent to the server which will then forward the info to other clients in the game
20120319 13:58:09< loonycyborg> jg2: Clients don't make peer-to-peer connections. Everything is done through the server.
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20120319 14:45:18< faryshta> Hi. About the Summer of Code Ideas. I worked with a video game company which asked me to develop social network integration.
20120319 14:45:23< faryshta> I can do the same for wesnoth.
20120319 14:45:53< oldtopman> So, what's with the summer of code?
20120319 14:46:04< faryshta> If a user integrate their wesnoth account with their twitter or facebook the game will update it to their profiles.
20120319 14:46:35< faryshta> Something like "faryshta just started a game with Espreon"
20120319 14:46:49< SongQ> sounds cool
20120319 14:46:52< oldtopman> I get that part. What is going on with Wesnoth being in the GSoC?
20120319 14:46:55< faryshta> Or "faryshta ended HTtT campaign.
20120319 14:48:12< faryshta> Do you guys think that can work as an idea for GSoC
20120319 14:49:19< fendrin> hello
20120319 14:50:05< SongQ> I'm also an applicant, and I like your idea.
20120319 14:51:22< jg2> loonycyborg, thanks for straightening that out.
20120319 14:51:33< faryshta> SongQ, thanks.
20120319 14:54:08< SongQ> I also have an idea, but I think it is too complicated. I want to transplant Wesnoth into Android devices.
20120319 14:56:25< elias> cjhopman already did that... he just didn't integrate the android specific code back into the main SVN (yet?)
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20120319 14:57:57< SongQ> That's wonderful, so something else I can do for the Android Version?
20120319 15:00:08< oldtopman> SongQ: Make it work on my craptastic 1st gen droid.
20120319 15:04:31< elias> SongQ: well, as long as the code isn't in SVN, it's hard to work on the android port at all
20120319 15:04:34 * vultraz wishes someone would do some GUI2 work for GSoC
20120319 15:05:11< faryshta> vultraz, do you have ideas for GUI2?
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20120319 15:07:17< faryshta> vultraz, I know for sure that for android units its hard to play since the area is too limited.
20120319 15:07:50< faryshta> vultraz, maybe drop-down menus or hotkeys.
20120319 15:09:54< vultraz> you'd have to talk to mordante
20120319 15:16:24< AI0867> you could work on merging the code back into trunk
20120319 15:16:31< AI0867> it's currently available on github
20120319 15:16:42< AI0867> it's based on 1.8.5
20120319 15:17:28< faryshta> AI0867, are you talking to SongQ?
20120319 15:17:35< AI0867> possibly
20120319 15:17:40< AI0867> ;)
20120319 15:18:08< AI0867> I was just spamming ideas in response to related ideas
20120319 15:18:30< faryshta> AI0867, What do you think about my social integration idea?
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20120319 15:20:13< Anubhav_C> join #lesswrong
20120319 15:20:28< Anubhav_C> oops, wrong window, sorry
20120319 15:21:26< Anubhav_C> whois Anubhav_C
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20120319 15:36:09< elias> faryshta: would it be enough for a gsoc project?
20120319 15:36:36< faryshta> elias, I don't know. I have never applied to GSoC. That is why I am asking.
20120319 15:37:03< elias> if it's just inserting a login then opening some urls, sounds like you could do it on a weekend - but i have no idea
20120319 15:37:37< elias> i meant the work required for the social media integration
20120319 15:37:45< timotei> faryshta: http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2011/03/dos-and-donts-of-google-summer-of-code.html
20120319 15:38:52< faryshta> elias, facebook and twitter integration aren't that quick. It takes time specially depending on how many features it requires.
20120319 15:39:29< timotei> faryshta: there are tons of libraries for that.
20120319 15:40:12< timotei> I've did Twitter integration before with a library, and it was easy enough. The authentication part is more tricky (from an end-user part) but it's fine in the rest.
20120319 15:40:31< timotei> Although IIRC facebook integration is not so easy 
20120319 15:40:31< timotei> :)
20120319 15:40:32< faryshta> elias, timotei yes there are. So you think its not a good enough idea?
20120319 15:41:01< timotei> faryshta: I don't even know what idea you're talking about. I just talked a bit about social media integration in my experience 
20120319 15:41:30< timotei> And didn't read the logs yet.
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20120319 15:42:20< faryshta> timotei, my idea is simple. Social network integration with wesnoth. Once the user integrate their FB, twitter or G+ with their Wesnoth forum account. The game itself can send messages to their social networks.
20120319 15:42:47< faryshta> timotei, like " timotei logged on the MP server on Battle for Wesnoth" 
20120319 15:42:57< timotei> Heh, you'd want to ask shadowm  about forum integration with 3rd party login systems :P
20120319 15:43:05< elias> does wesnoth have achievements?
20120319 15:43:07< timotei> The idea is interesting.
20120319 15:43:13< timotei> elias: no.
20120319 15:43:14< Crendgrim> elias: no
20120319 15:43:15< elias> if so could post about them I suppose :)
20120319 15:43:24< timotei> It was a discussion... when we wanted to send it to desura/steam
20120319 15:43:26< timotei> IIRC
20120319 15:43:27< Crendgrim> elias: however, some add-ons implemented something alike
20120319 15:43:36< faryshta> elias, no it doesn't. Mods think that achievements would encourage cheating.
20120319 15:44:29< faryshta> elias, but I am thinking more about 'X started a game with Y' rather than 'X pwned Y'. Which wouldn't encourage cheating I guess.
20120319 15:45:07< timotei> faryshta: well, you could make a draft proposal of you idea, and discuss based on that.
20120319 15:45:23< faryshta> timotei, k. Where should I send the draft?
20120319 15:45:38< timotei> It's easier to talk about something written, than to write everything here on IRC, and having to scroll back to check what was talked about yesterday or so
20120319 15:45:51< timotei> faryshta: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas#I_want_to_be_one_of_your_Google_Summer_of_Code_students.2C_what_should_I_do...
20120319 15:46:07< timotei> faryshta: read those, and create a NEW PAGE, with the specific template, and write there the stuff
20120319 15:46:18< faryshta> timotei, thanks.
20120319 15:46:22< timotei> yw
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20120319 16:42:46< Crab_> elias: there's some basic support for achievements due to a presence of persistent WML variables. all's needed is some basic gui for displaying them (which can be coded quickly), and we're set.
20120319 16:43:38< elias> i see
20120319 16:43:48< anonymissimus> AI0867: it may have been more user friendly to only emit a warning in teh python wmlxgettext instead of forcing people to not use it
20120319 16:43:49< elias> but yeah, the question then is if it's wanted
20120319 16:44:42< anonymissimus> AI0867: the perl version is very tough to use and I dunno whether it works at all on non-Linux etc
20120319 16:44:49< elias> and then in addition, how many players would want to spam the achievements to facebook... do other games do that? (not using facebook mysyelf much)
20120319 16:45:15< anonymissimus> AI0867: so if someone wants to make a translation on his own the python script may be approrpiate
20120319 16:45:17< faryshta> elias, well I don't use it either but lets give them the option if they want.
20120319 16:45:58< faryshta> elias, the achievements can be simpliers like 'Just killed a Yeti on XYZ campaign'. Something not very intrusive.
20120319 16:48:18< faryshta> elias, part of my idea is to let the users decide what they want to share on their network with a simple configuration page. Just clicking checboxes.
20120319 16:49:01< zookeeper> achievements... urgh.
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20120319 16:50:27< faryshta> looks like achievements aren't very popular here :)
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20120319 16:58:26< vultraz> faryshta: the idea sounds sorta cool, but it doesn't seem really...useful
20120319 17:01:47< meow27> so i have this problem with grub
20120319 17:02:49< meow27> im burned myself a sysrecueCD, but both of my harddrives are listed in such a way that makes booting impossible, sda->sde sdb(root)->sdf
20120319 17:03:09< meow27> i dont know how to get grub working with this problem without using UUIDs
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20120319 17:04:51< loonycyborg> meow27: Wrong window?
20120319 17:04:53< AI0867> anonymissimus: the python version doesn't work at all atm
20120319 17:05:02< meow27> yeah
20120319 17:05:03< meow27> >_>
20120319 17:05:11 * meow27 maga facedesk
20120319 17:05:11< loonycyborg> Besides, doesn't grub use (hdx,y) notation?
20120319 17:05:42< meow27> mega*      yes but it coincides with the sd[x] format
20120319 17:06:36< loonycyborg> In any case that shouldn't matter if you specify right kernel and initrd
20120319 17:07:23< loonycyborg> You do know that you can edit commands in grub right at the boot time, right :P?
20120319 17:07:31< loonycyborg> It even has tab completion
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20120319 17:10:02< meow27> im using grub2
20120319 17:10:05< meow27> thats the thing i missed
20120319 17:10:25< anonymissimus> AI0867: it did when I used it last
20120319 17:10:59< meow27> anywho i forwarded the question in the proper channel :P
20120319 17:11:10< anonymissimus> and it didn't change since then afaik
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20120319 17:31:54< zookeeper> faryshta, well, i only speak for myself, but frankly i find achievements which aren't real achievements to be very pointless. who cares if i've finished campaign X? i only see any sense in achievements which really are achievements, like finishing a campaign on hard recruiting only footpads without losing any units and never attacking diagonally... but that invites cheating.
20120319 17:37:55< the_new_lipk> i'm not a big fan of achievements myself, but honestly, who cares how much the users cheat on single player?
20120319 17:38:38< noy> This whole discussion is the point why we don't have achievements
20120319 17:38:57< vultraz> SP is the realm of no-one-is-looking-ima-reload!
20120319 17:38:58< vultraz> XD
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20120319 17:42:36< zookeeper> the_new_lipk, no one, but what's the point of achievements if seeing someone's achievement doesn't tell you whether they actually achieved that or not?
20120319 17:43:15< faryshta> zookeeper, vultraz elias timotei here is the first draft of my idea http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2012_SocialNetworkIntegration
20120319 17:43:57< faryshta> the_new_lipk, noy for my idea achievements are optional not mandatories.
20120319 17:44:23< noy> its not about optional or mandatory.
20120319 17:44:43< noy> what's the point if saveloading exists? 
20120319 17:45:33< noy> basically there is no way to verify whether someone actually "achieved" something
20120319 17:45:49< zookeeper> well i think social network integration is a much better idea if you focus on multiplayer-related things like match-making or sharing replays or something
20120319 17:46:12< noy> are these ideas for gsoc?
20120319 17:46:20< faryshta> zookeeper, yup I added that to the draft :)
20120319 17:46:28< the_new_lipk> btw, are students really required to put out their email addresses to a public page?
20120319 17:46:32< noy> We're not really accepting outside ideas
20120319 17:46:57< noy> I should probably make that clear. We want students to chose from the list of ideas put out there.
20120319 17:47:04< the_new_lipk> okay, noy answered my question
20120319 17:48:18< faryshta> mmm that wasn't clear.
20120319 17:48:36< Nephro> Hi, Crab_, I was looking through the ideas, and currently I am really into the recruiting alg refactoring. I think it would be very convenient for the AI, it should fit well in the current system. But I am not sure if there is enough work for a whole summer though, although I might as well be mistaking. Do you want the new algorithm be implemented in Lua or as a candidate action right in ai/test(C++)
20120319 17:50:43< faryshta> What about the new addon server. What does the new one need to be rewrited from scratch?
20120319 17:51:01< Nephro> Crab_, it also seems to me, that the behaviour candidate actions that I implemented last year might help easily solve point (5) on the idea page. That would probably require some tweaking of the system and pre-written parameterisable Lua ca's
20120319 17:51:58< faryshta> noy http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Your_Own_Ideas2012
20120319 17:52:02< AI0867> anonymissimus: I'm basing that off a recent forum thread
20120319 17:52:02< elias> noy: yeah, the link in the topic even lists "make your own ideas" as one of the suggested ideas right now
20120319 17:52:15< noy> yes, read through it elias 
20120319 17:52:17< AI0867> it generates pot files, sure, but those aren't very useful
20120319 17:52:40< elias> i did, just saying (i think it said the same thing last year)
20120319 17:52:45< noy> says that unless your idea is exceptional, then we would rather you chose from the list
20120319 17:53:10< noy> if some is facing resistance right from the outset, then its probably not exceptional.
20120319 17:53:20< elias> true
20120319 17:53:55< the_new_lipk> faryshta: afaik, shadowm wants nice admin option like banning users by ip and such
20120319 17:54:06< the_new_lipk> *options
20120319 17:54:08< faryshta> So, where should I send my idea then?
20120319 17:54:44< faryshta> the_new_lipk, cool let me ask him privately.
20120319 17:54:46< noy> faryshta: you're supposed to discuss it here first. 
20120319 17:55:18< faryshta> noy what are you talking about?
20120319 17:55:19< noy> faryshta: or was this in regards to one of the ideas already identified
20120319 17:59:40< Crab_> Nephro: there's always more work than expected :)
20120319 18:00:20< Crab_> Nephro: any of C++ and lua would be fine, as long as the project goals are achieved. herereconfigurability is important, not implementation language.
20120319 18:00:44< Crab_> Nephro: and yes, some of the points on the idea list base on what you've did last year.
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20120319 18:03:05< Nephro> Crab_, I remember how my big idea failed last year, but I still seem to like at least parts of it. Mainly, a persistent data structure, that would containt some info. What I think is a problem with that, is the fact, that after a save it should be serialized and saved too, exposing the strategy of the the AI to the player. Of course, developers can read code and find out how to outplay the AI anyway, but if a release build on a user machine exposes
20120319 18:03:05< Nephro>  the strat to the player, is that even viable?
20120319 18:03:15< Nephro> the strat to the player, is that even viable?
20120319 18:03:26< Crab_> Nephro: it's not 'failed', I'd say, it's just "time run out faster than generally expected" :)
20120319 18:04:16< Crab_> Nephro: think not of 'strategy', think more of 'objectives'
20120319 18:04:42< Crab_> Nephro: if enemy objectives are known to the player, then it's still interesting if the AI has freedom in achieving them.
20120319 18:09:04< Nephro> Crab_: well, that idea can be left for later stages, since the idea's in the list can and should be implemented independently first. I think I am going to apply for this idea, are there any pre GSoC tasks I could work on before the decisions are made?
20120319 18:10:02< Nephro> Crab_: I just don't want to start implementing the idea straight away, since someone else might be accepted for it and there would be clashes
20120319 18:10:12< Crab_> What do you think about writing a design specification for the recruiting?
20120319 18:10:50< Crab_> if you want to handle the recruiting refactoring, that is.
20120319 18:11:18< anonymissimus> Nephro: I guess you can almost be sure to be chosen over someone else since it's your second time
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20120319 18:12:12< Crab_> anonymissimus: not always true. for example, when I was a gsoc student I had to compete against dragonking, who, by then, was an expert on that area and a developer. in the end, both of us were accepted.
20120319 18:12:40< Nephro> Crab_: I thought I would do that in my application page. But it's not actually coding work... However, you've actually seen me coding, so I think it's not essential to prove that point again
20120319 18:12:43< Crab_> Nephro: but, don't let it turn into a 'design by commitee' - i.e. don't listen too heavily to what any other person wants, but, instead, see what code people write to get around recruitment's missing features.
20120319 18:13:01< Nephro> anonymissimus, nah, I don't want to rely on that :) Things should be earned
20120319 18:13:37< anonymissimus> remembers some half-baked revisions by drakonking
20120319 18:14:06< anonymissimus> except for those I've never heard from him
20120319 18:14:23< Crab_> Nephro: i.e., there's a macro people are using to limit the recruitment of the units of the same type. find out the reasons for that macro being used (there's at least two reasons I know of), and turn it into a feature in your design.
20120319 18:15:28< anonymissimus> that I can tell; the Ai by default recruits only the highest-level units available
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20120319 18:16:08< anonymissimus> but to make intersting scenarios, wml coders want Ai opponents to recruit a variety of level 1s and 2s usually
20120319 18:16:14< vultraz> Crab_: {LIMIT_CONTEMPORANEOUS_RECRUITS} ?
20120319 18:16:19< anonymissimus> yes
20120319 18:16:21< Crab_> vultraz: yes, that macro
20120319 18:16:24< Nephro> Crab_: ok. I have a small test tomorrow, and a little larger one on thursday. After that I have no university at all for a whole month. I will start my work then.
20120319 18:17:04< Crab_> Nephro: keep the 'latest' version of the design doc in the wiki
20120319 18:17:27< Crab_> Nephro: it's most important to figure out the list of features we want and the list of features we don't want
20120319 18:17:43< Crab_> Nephro: then, it'd be important to figure out how it will be configured by user.
20120319 18:18:20< Crab_> Nephro: also, read through current recruitment code until you're confident that you know how it works and why it makes decisions like they are now.
20120319 18:18:34< Nephro> of course, that is crucial
20120319 18:22:37< Crab_> bye, will be online later today (in ~4 hours, most likely)
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20120319 18:38:02< noy> anonymissimus: uhh, dragonking was a highly talented programmer. I think he got into GSOC twice and was considered one of the best students for what he did. 
20120319 18:49:49-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Wesnoth accepted in GSoC 2012 | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 171 bugs, 330 feature requests, 12 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20120319 19:20:30< Ivanovic> hi
20120319 19:22:17< noy> hey
20120319 19:26:56< anonymissimus> Crab_: I have the code for the "add callback" thing which we talked about some time ago ready
20120319 19:28:14< anonymissimus> however, I have some problems with mordante's jailbreak exception and would like discussing it with you; and the possibility of such an exception being thrown from within a call back function, perhaps while there already is another exception pending
20120319 19:28:47< anonymissimus> and it looks like it is not prepared for having 2 stacked exceptions pending :P
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20120319 19:40:51< shadowm> faryshta: because the existing code is stagnant, uses SDL_net, it's not very flexible for admins, and doesn't provide any degree of integration with wescamp for admins and content authors
20120319 19:43:15< Ivanovic> faryshta: or, to say it with other words: what we want is *so* far away from the current codebase that there is barely anything reusable left
20120319 19:43:46< shadowm> in technical terms, the existing code is crap
20120319 19:43:54< Ivanovic> oldtopman: wesnoth is accepted in GSoC, that is going on with wesnoth being in GSoC
20120319 19:44:12< Ivanovic> so wesnoth will (as in the last 4 years) mentor some students over the summer
20120319 19:44:17< oldtopman> oic
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20120319 19:50:50 * shadowm kicks wesnoth.org
20120319 19:54:43< thethomaseffect> I'd really like to work on one of the AI ideas for GSoC, they all seem interesting
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20120319 20:08:10< mordante> servus
20120319 20:08:33< the_new_lipk> hi mordante
20120319 20:08:37< mordante> h ith
20120319 20:08:44< mordante> hi the_new_lipk 
20120319 20:10:16< mordante> Espreon, the document is a draft, making a document beautiful is done later
20120319 20:10:33< mordante> LaTeX probably still has several issues with the document
20120319 20:10:57< Espreon> mordante: OK. Please ignore my rant about beauty and stuff, then.
20120319 20:11:14< mordante> shadowm, I want to post on the ML, but the amount of text it too long for an e-mail
20120319 20:11:35< mordante> but I want the draft to be more to a final stage before posting
20120319 20:12:31< mordante> shadowm, if you want I can use your real name 
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20120319 20:16:34< mordante> anonymissimus, how can there be two pending exceptions?
20120319 20:18:28< shadowm> okay, so let me go over that thing again
20120319 20:18:57< Espreon> mordante: So, will you address my concerns and suggestions today?
20120319 20:19:02< shadowm> well, for starters, what's the point of changing the .pbl forma beyond our/my immediate needs?
20120319 20:19:07< shadowm> format
20120319 20:19:07< mordante> Espreon, no
20120319 20:19:22< Espreon> When will they be addressed?
20120319 20:19:31< mordante> IIRWIIR
20120319 20:19:40< Espreon> Of course...
20120319 20:20:06< shadowm> and I do mean the (client-side) .pbl format, not the server-side storage
20120319 20:20:13< mordante> gsoc just started and in my experience that slows my output to a crawl
20120319 20:20:52< mordante> just the chance of when doing a rewrite, do it cleanly
20120319 20:21:21< Espreon> All right.
20120319 20:21:34< shadowm> I don't see anything cleaner about packing the attributes inside a child node for a document that is always read stand-alone
20120319 20:21:44< shadowm> (Assuming you were replying to me)
20120319 20:22:31< shadowm> more on the contrary, this will introduce an additional, pesky level of indirection when reading the document
20120319 20:25:03< mordante> I prefer structured documents
20120319 20:25:15< mordante> however it will be a proposal, nothing cast in stone yet
20120319 20:25:40< shadowm> not to sound rude, but this bit in particular is more relevant for us end-users than you
20120319 20:25:59< mordante> so?
20120319 20:26:07< shadowm> the end-users in this case being content authors
20120319 20:26:18< shadowm> note that this is partly why I'd like to insist once again on having this thing reviewed by the community at large
20120319 20:26:38< mordante> like I said that's the intention
20120319 20:27:01< shadowm> you also seem to have completely thrown away the current concept of add-on types in your proposal
20120319 20:27:28< shadowm> when I implemented it I tried to keep it as generic as possible. Distinctions like whether something is an RPG add-on or not don't belong there.
20120319 20:27:44< mordante> no I have not, the thing is a draft and not finished :-|
20120319 20:28:13< mordante> that's also why I didn't post anything to the ml yet
20120319 20:28:51< shadowm> well, I thought that since you asked me yesterday whether I had had a look at it I was meant to had a look at it for a greater purpose than just admiring its presentational specifications
20120319 20:29:00< shadowm> s/to had/to have/
20120319 20:29:34< shadowm> also since it is linked in the GSoC idea page as a reference for prospective applicants
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20120319 20:47:15< mordante> no was mainly to show its presence, not its final state
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20120319 20:50:25< mordante> Ivanovic, won't have time tonight to finish the patch, but using intrinsics looks it promising
20120319 20:50:42< mordante> much better then hope gcc to vectorise the code itself
20120319 20:50:56< Ivanovic> okay, mordante
20120319 20:51:04< mordante> wrote an emulation function for the intrinsics so I can test the code locally
20120319 20:53:47< mordante> gcc also decided that vectorised data types can only be subscripted as an array in C :-(
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20120319 21:15:07< anonymissimus> mordante: I need luaW_pcall to call itsself
20120319 21:15:34< anonymissimus> that can lead to a jailbreak exeption wanting to get stored while another one is already
20120319 21:18:31< anonymissimus> people should not call code in a callback function which could throw a jailbreak exception, btu I can't prevent it
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20120319 21:50:23< mordante> anonymissimus, sounds odd, but why not test the exception before the second call and handle the pending exception?
20120319 21:50:40< mordante> anonymissimus, every piece of C++ in Wesnoth is allowed to throw exceptions
20120319 21:52:09< mordante> so it's not possible to call C++ code that surely doesn't throw an exception
20120319 21:52:51< mordante> (well in theory it is, but the number of functions with an empty throw specification are rare)
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20120319 21:53:20< anonymissimus> the engine is way not exception safe a certain former dev used to say
20120319 21:53:43< anonymissimus> (not just because of lua or not)
20120319 21:54:07< mordante> I know, however it is supposed to be exception safe
20120319 21:56:08< anonymissimus> hm how would I handle it ?
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20120319 21:57:43< mordante> why not, as I said before, before calling luaW_pcall again, test for a pending exception
20120319 21:58:01< mordante> if there is one don't call luaW_pcall again and handle the exception
20120319 21:58:45< anonymissimus> I *need* to call it in any case, after handling the exception perhaps
20120319 21:59:00< anonymissimus> because the lua scripter needs some code to be called
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20120319 22:47:10< faryshta> Which are the new features required for the add on server? I can help there.
20120319 22:47:39< Ivanovic> mordante, shadowm: you are probably the two knowing most about this possible project
20120319 22:48:21< mordante> I'm off now faryshta best try to catch me tomorrow
20120319 22:48:41< faryshta> mordante, can you send me PM later?
20120319 22:48:56-!- Crendgrim [~crend@77-22-112-72-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: ...]
20120319 22:49:20< mordante> I prefer talking on IRC, it's easier to discuss in here
20120319 22:49:23< Ivanovic> i am heading off to bed, too
20120319 22:49:24< Ivanovic> n8
20120319 22:49:30< mordante> night Ivanovic 
20120319 22:49:50< shadowm> Ivanovic: mordante turned this into a GSoC project without asking me about it, so I don't really know anymore
20120319 22:50:01< mordante> I'm off night
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20120319 22:56:24< faryshta> shadowm, what do you think of this? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2012_SocialNetworkIntegration
20120319 22:57:21< c_nevin92> hi, im following the checklist on the Summer of Code Ideas page, and it says to tell an admin to mark it as a GSoc Student account. Anyone on that can help?
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20120319 22:59:59< shadowm> faryshta: I don't like these so-called "social networks" in general, and I'm not a mentor either.
20120319 23:01:20< gabba> faryshta: just one thing, make sure to use the template for your idea page so it gets automatically listed here http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas
20120319 23:01:34< shadowm> c_nevin92: have you created a proposal page yet?
20120319 23:04:12< faryshta> gabba, I think I used it.
20120319 23:04:20< faryshta> gabba, what should I change?
20120319 23:04:29< c_nevin92> not yet, i thought id create the account for the forum and for gna before i did
20120319 23:06:11< gabba> faryshta: you're supposed to go to that page http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas2012_Template, edit it only to copy the wiki code, then use that code as the base for your new page
20120319 23:06:30< faryshta> gabba, I did.
20120319 23:06:33< gabba> faryshta: you can still copy that code at the beginning of the page you created
20120319 23:09:38< shadowm> c_nevin92: well, you might notice that communicating your ideas and goals come first in the list :) I'd personally prefer to keep the forum users groups as tidy as possible since in past years I've added people who are never heard of again during the application period
20120319 23:09:53< shadowm> *group
20120319 23:14:29< c_nevin92> shadown: ok np, ill get working on my proposal then. 
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20120319 23:16:23< noy> damn... he left
20120319 23:18:36< shadowm> c_nevin92: I assume c_nevin92 is your account name in the forums? (btw, you can just type "sha" and press tab on your IRC client to autocomplete; the final letter is an m, not an n)
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20120319 23:29:13< c_nevin92> shadowm: yeah its the same name, and thanks, ive rarely used irc up till now
20120319 23:31:02< shadowm> faryshta: more in general, as you can see in http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas#Make_your_own_ideas we are highly unlikely to accept original ideas from the students this year unless we find them to be really worth it
20120319 23:31:59< shadowm> and really, as far as I'm concerned, this social networks business does not qualify. I believe our leads share that opinion, not sure.
20120319 23:32:01< faryshta> shadowm, ok I got it. I am wondering if my idea is good enough to worth it.
20120319 23:32:21< faryshta> shadowm, then I will try to help on the addon server.
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20120319 23:39:07< gabba> Hey Crab_
20120319 23:39:48< Gambit> shadowm: What social network business?
20120319 23:39:56< Gambit> Twitter/facebook integration?
20120319 23:39:59< noy> a proposed GSOC idea along those lines
20120319 23:40:10< noy> no, internal to the game and the forums
20120319 23:40:32< Crab_> hi, gabba
20120319 23:40:34< Gambit> Ah okay.
20120319 23:40:55< gabba> Crab_: you definitely have the record for the most GSoC ideas :P
20120319 23:41:30< gabba> Crab_: I wanted to ask you, do you think the multiple Chance to Kill calculations and display could be a good-sized GSoC project?
20120319 23:45:17< Crab_> yes, if you still have stability issues with the whiteboard that you'd like to be solved.
20120319 23:45:30< Crab_> then, solving those + adding the feature would be a good start.
20120319 23:49:37< gabba> Thanks for the input. I'm not sure I have enough serious problems left, actually (apart from those that'll probably be solved by the big refactoring idea). Maybe I can combine it with some other feature that's also unlikely to mess with the wb core.
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20120319 23:55:06< Crab_> yes, having a second feature might be a good idea. however, I think that's easy enough to find extra work :)
--- Log closed Tue Mar 20 00:00:41 2012