--- Log opened Wed Apr 04 00:00:09 2012
--- Day changed Wed Apr 04 2012
20120404 00:00:09< Crab_> Ayne: where (i.e., what function/line) ?
20120404 00:00:39< Ayne> basically, whereever a value was assigned to ai_special_ i now have a set_stage for guardian with a condition that sets it to true if ai_special == "guardian", otherwise to false
20120404 00:00:54< boucman> hey all
20120404 00:01:13< Crab_> hi, boucman
20120404 00:01:25< Ayne> hi
20120404 00:02:17< Crab_> Ayne: you have :  -	ai_special_(cfg["ai_special"]),
20120404 00:02:29< Crab_> Ayne: where is the set_stage for that ?
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20120404 00:04:34< Ayne> Crab_: it's not in the patch because that was already set in the original code
20120404 00:05:37< Crab_> ok, I see
20120404 00:05:38< Ayne> Crab_: line 447 (or thereabouts, i don't have the latest version on this computer) in unit.cpp
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20120404 00:06:09< Crab_> it's then ok, but point (2) is still valid (convert this place to use state_t)
20120404 00:06:56< Ayne> ok, i'll fix that in a moment
20120404 00:08:17< Teugon> I've visited the Easy Coding page and I've take a look on the section called :"Add more ai actions"
20120404 00:08:17< Teugon> who can I bother with some questions ?
20120404 00:08:57< Crab_> Teugon: me, probably :)
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20120404 00:11:41< Teugon> Crab_: good,
20120404 00:11:41< Teugon> Crab_: first of all am I supposed to commit all the 3 adds in one shot or it refers just about one ?
20120404 00:12:16< Crab_> Teugon: any one is ok
20120404 00:12:58< Crab_> Ayne: also, set_state("guardian", false); is probably not required in there (known states start as false). but doublecheck.
20120404 00:15:34< Ayne> Crab_: true, I just felt it would be better to replace anything done with ai_special_ with the stage_t equivalent on a "better safe than sorry" basis. It's always easier to take out something that's unnecessary than fix strange bugs because something was deleted that shouldn't have been after all
20120404 00:15:54< Crab_> yes and no.
20120404 00:16:03< Crab_> now, you know the reasoning for leaving this line out.
20120404 00:16:20< Crab_> but, someone else, even a day from now, will not know that
20120404 00:17:27< Crab_> and it's way harder to figure out if this line is really necessary or not, by then
20120404 00:17:28< Teugon> Crab_: about the feature to "to set a goto on a unit " does the unit ai have to goto have to be any an ally/enemy unit? Does ai always have to do this or is it restricted to some kind? 
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20120404 00:18:03< Teugon> *any or an ally/enemy ...
20120404 00:18:13< Crab_> Teugon: generally, AI should only be allowed to set gotos on friendly unit. and the target should be just a hex.
20120404 00:18:33< Crab_> ( sorry, not just friendly but 'own' )
20120404 00:22:43< Ayne> Crab_: the method that set_stage("guardian", false) is in is the method that resets the unit for a new scenario
20120404 00:23:11< Ayne> Crab_: the other states (poisoned, petrified and slowed) are also set to false in the same way later during the method
20120404 00:23:13< Teugon> Crab_:So I suppose you mean this feature is to allow AI's units to "follow" it's units and not to set the targeted hex as a rally point. Am I wrong ?
20120404 00:24:31< Crab_> Ayne: then (maybe) just set the guardian special just after  set_state(STATE_PETRIFIED, false);
20120404 00:25:40< Crab_> Teugon: no, I mean that the goto action instructs one of own units to go to target location by setting the 'goto' property of said unit void set_goto(const map_location& new_goto)
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20120404 00:28:02< fendrin> hello
20120404 00:29:08< Crab_> hi, fendrin
20120404 00:29:21< Ayne> hey fendrin
20120404 00:29:29< Teugon> Crab_: ok I think I have all that I need to (atm), I'm gonna assign it to me.
20120404 00:31:06< Crab_> ok
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20120404 00:33:28< Ayne> Crab_: is there anything else right now that you've noticed or should i upload the new patch?
20120404 00:33:56< Crab_> nothing else, as of now
20120404 00:34:03< Ayne> ok
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20120404 00:46:12< Ayne> Crab_: uploaded. I'm heading off now, if there's anything else I'll be checking the logs and my email.
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20120404 00:52:45< tyrannodogg> Crab_: I try to implement the chatting feature for ais, can you tell me where to find the methods to send chat messages?
20120404 00:54:16< Crab_> tyrannodogg: afair, it's called send_chat_message, see menu_handler::do_speak in src/menu_events.cpp
20120404 00:54:39< tyrannodogg> thanks
20120404 00:54:43< Crab_> it calls chat_handler::do_speak which calls send_chat_message
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20120404 00:55:19< Crab_> note that each message basically goes two ways - to replay (to be sent over the network) and to GUI (to be displayed to end user)
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20120404 00:59:52< anonymissimus> Crab_: re "there's a problem - the value is initially ai_special="guardian", but if you would make a known boolean state named "guardian", so it'd be written to config as "guardian"="yes/no"": I don't see a problem there
20120404 01:00:24< Crab_> anonymissimus: no, it was not a problem because there was an extra assignment which was not initially touched by the patch
20120404 01:00:31< anonymissimus> there are no other values supported by the engine for ai_special (and there are also no other values documented to be supported)
20120404 01:01:13< Crab_> anonymissimus: no, I'm not a about that aspect - I was talking about setting it both from old value and new value correctly (and I initially only looked at the patch)
20120404 01:01:51< Crab_> (and still, as of now, SUF would still use ai_special instead of guardian=yes/no)
20120404 01:02:39< anonymissimus> yes; well we could change that but need deprecation, wmllint rule etc
20120404 01:03:52< Crab_> for now, there're still some compatibility changes, as of latest version of the patch
20120404 01:04:38< Crab_> ai_special does not survive serialization to config (as a config attribute)
20120404 01:04:59< Crab_> i.e., the unit would only use [status] guardian=yes/no [/status] after serializing to config
20120404 01:05:15< Crab_> (as of now, nowhere in unit.cpp ai_special=guardian is written to config)
20120404 01:05:25< Crab_> but, that's minor
20120404 01:06:56< Crab_> anonymissimus: do we need to fix ^ before committing?
20120404 01:09:18< anonymissimus> Crab_: ? well, I'm already fine with my comment and the related changes
20120404 01:09:24< Crab_> ok
20120404 01:09:42< Crab_> bye
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20120404 01:18:33< gabba> Could still use some help with compiling under Windows, upgraded VS2008 to SP1, and now getting those errors with latest trunk: http://pastebin.com/5DHc5HLZ
20120404 01:21:11< jamit> Someone know how to use Lua AI?
20120404 01:21:59< jamit> Oh.. mattsc? ^
20120404 01:22:14< mattsc> hello, jamit
20120404 01:22:32< jamit> It looks like there is a "get avoid" Lua command?
20120404 01:22:51< mattsc> yes.  that gives you the content of the avoid aspect.
20120404 01:23:13< jamit> Is there any reason for that to return border locations? (The hexes that units cannot go to.)
20120404 01:24:42< mattsc> No, that was a bug.  Nephro fixed that yesterday (r53758)
20120404 01:24:58< mattsc> it returned C++ coordinates rather than map coordinates.
20120404 01:25:19< jamit> Ah, no, slightly different issue.
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20120404 01:25:38< mattsc> oh, do you mean should it return border locations?
20120404 01:26:40< jamit> The filter looks like it is currently restricted to map + border instead of just map.
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20120404 01:27:30< mattsc> I see (I don't know anything about the inner workings of the code)
20120404 01:27:40< mattsc> No, I don't think that's needed.  
20120404 01:28:19< mattsc> The avoid aspects is used to exclude locations from the move-to-targets phase.  As I understand it, border locations are meaningless for that.
20120404 01:28:39< jamit> I didn't think so. Thought I would double-check that I wasn't completely off before I considered changing that.
20120404 01:29:00< mattsc> We might want to wait for Crab_ to be back on to confirm this.
20120404 01:29:51< mattsc> (I'm reasonably sure about it, but then, I don't know the C++ code)
20120404 01:30:26< jamit> Sounds like a plan. It's a small change and really should not do anything but offer a slim performance boost.
20120404 01:30:41< jamit> Slim as in no one would ever notice.
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20120404 01:31:18< mattsc> Sounds good.
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20120404 01:45:20< CIA-69> jamit * r53763 /trunk/src/ (pathutils.cpp pathutils.hpp terrain_filter.cpp): Terrain filters respect "with_border" for their radius (as well as for everything else).
20120404 01:49:56-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.10.2 planned for April 7th, string freeze for branches/1.10 | Wesnoth accepted in GSoC 2012 | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 165 bugs, 328 feature requests, 16 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20120404 02:53:19< gabba> fendrin: around?
20120404 02:53:39< gabba> wesbot seen fendrin
20120404 02:53:39< wesbot> gabba: Queried user last spoke 2h 25m ago.  fendrin is currently here and on the channels #wesnoth, #wesnoth-de and #wesnoth-umc-dev.
20120404 03:00:57< dream_lane> Haha, I was wondering how in the world an OS game had 0 feature requests... I see that the motd changed to the correct number now.
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20120404 03:05:41< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53764 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics.cfg: Draw water lillies below swamp grass
20120404 03:06:48< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53765 /branches/1.10/data/core/terrain-graphics.cfg: Backport r53764 to 1.10
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20120404 03:27:59< fendrin> gabba: hi
20120404 03:28:58< gabba> Hi fendrin
20120404 03:29:09< fendrin> gabba: you found that I broke the whiteboard somehow?
20120404 03:29:33< gabba> I thought I was having problems with your display refactoring, but never mind, looks like my svn checkout was corrupted somehow
20120404 03:31:04< fendrin> I thought I had tested everything, but when I read your name I remembered that there is the whiteboard feature. I never think about testing it.
20120404 03:31:42< gabba> Ehm yeah, please test after such major changes... it's very sensitive to engine changes.
20120404 03:32:51< fendrin> Okay, I need to learn how the thing is expected to work. With my current knowledge I can't even say when it is broken.
20120404 03:35:11< gabba> Well, it's not supposed to crash or make visual glitches obviously :P, and you're supposed to be able to plan pretty much everything (recruits, recalls, moves, attacks) and execute those (or just hit end turn and they start auto-executing until something important interrupts).
20120404 03:35:46< fendrin> I see.
20120404 03:36:49< fendrin> Most likely I will reuse part of the drawing code in the map editor as well. Thus It will get some attention when I lift it to display and put it in use.
20120404 03:39:37< gabba> Sounds good. Please be extra-careful not to break stuff, as I rely on my students being able to find their way around the code to prepare their proposals.
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20120404 03:42:47< fendrin> gabba: I can do that after gsoc. Currently everything is fine, right?
20120404 03:43:19< gabba> No idea, haven't compiled in weeks - trying to get my secondary dev machine on VS2008 setup
20120404 03:47:43< CIA-69> gabba * r53766 /trunk/projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj: Missing file in VC9 project.
20120404 03:54:13< gabba> going afk, I'll be back in 30-50 min
20120404 04:01:33< CIA-69> shadowmaster * r53767 /trunk/src/addon/client.cpp: addon/client: Remove old code that no longer does anything useful
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20120404 04:17:07< CIA-69> shadowmaster * r53768 /trunk/src/addon/ (client.cpp info.cpp info.hpp): 
20120404 04:17:07< CIA-69> addon: Write only the minimal set of information required to _info.cfg files
20120404 04:17:07< CIA-69> This is currently just the type, uploads and version attributes, just
20120404 04:17:07< CIA-69> like in versions 1.6.x through 1.10.x.
20120404 04:17:07< CIA-69> It would have made sense to write everything for the tentative
20120404 04:17:08< CIA-69> dependency tracking mechanism, but a certain developer has made the
20120404 04:17:09< CIA-69> implementation of such rather unlikely to come from me right now.
20120404 04:17:11< CIA-69> shadowmaster * r53769 /trunk/src/addon/info.cpp: addon/info: Write .type as a string id instead of a converted enum member in write() and write_minimal() methods
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20120404 06:02:56< gabba> Phew. Wesnoth successfully compiled under VS2008 SP1. Debug build a lot slower than I remember it being under Ubuntu, for some reason.
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20120404 06:42:01< gabba> faryshat: Well, so why don't you explain to me in your own words what the project you're interested in is. That would be a good start.
20120404 06:42:18< gabba> misspell
20120404 06:42:24< gabba> faryshta: ^^
20120404 06:49:12< faryshta>  You want me to first start with the layout?
20120404 06:49:29< faryshta> Well
20120404 06:49:51< faryshta> The attack dialog needs to show multiple damage calculations for several attackers.
20120404 06:50:11< faryshta> Obviously the current attack dialog needs to be redesigned.
20120404 06:50:46< faryshta> The idea is to have a grid-like layout with each attacker being a row of the grid.
20120404 06:51:19< faryshta> The grid columns will be four  Options/buttons, attackers, weapons, defender.
20120404 06:51:31< faryshta> http://www.touchjuegos.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/descargar-el-apk-juego-The-Battle-for-Wesnoth-v1.8.6.1-Android.jpg
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20120404 06:52:14< faryshta> That would be the last three columns (and a single row) missing the option/buttons column.
20120404 06:52:40< faryshta> The options button column will have four buttons arranged vertically.
20120404 06:53:02< gabba> Ok, first the project is not only about redesigning this dialog, I wanna do general interface improvements, which imply you have to find a list of other things you want to improve besides this one, and tell me why.
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20120404 06:53:17< gabba> But we can discuss this if you want, for the moment.
20120404 06:53:18< faryshta> I know, let me keep going.
20120404 06:54:08< faryshta> The first button will be an up arrow.
20120404 06:54:54< faryshta> When the user click on that arrow, the unit on the right of the arrow will go up into the dialog and it will mean that such unit will attack before that it was already intended.
20120404 06:55:10< faryshta> It will be used to change the order of the attackers.
20120404 06:55:35< faryshta> Beneath the up arrow will be a down arrow with a similar function only making the unit attack after.
20120404 06:56:03< faryshta> Beneath a "cancel unit" or "X" button  can be placed to cancel the attack of the unit to the right.
20120404 06:56:13< faryshta> And the final button will be the damage calculation button.
20120404 06:56:32< faryshta> When clicked it will be shown the calculation for the attacks up to that point.
20120404 06:56:37< gabba> Not a bad idea, it sounds possible, even though the result on the map might be slightly confusing if you reorder attacks through the dialog
20120404 06:58:06< gabba> Now, how do you plan on dealing with screens that have limited space (such as in your android example)?
20120404 06:58:09< faryshta> The functions to calculate the damage are already implemented. I don't know if there are already functions to alter the orders for the dashboard in which case such functions will have to be written.
20120404 06:58:54< gabba> There are definitely such functions in the whiteboard
20120404 06:58:58< faryshta> When the dialog overflows the screen then it will create a scroll bar. I will need help on that part.
20120404 06:59:46< faryshta> Or the rows can decrease size showing onlye one complete row and the others will show only icons and buttons.
20120404 06:59:52< faryshta> The last idea is not my favorite.
20120404 07:00:02< faryshta> Since that is just a temporal fix.
20120404 07:00:14< faryshta> Until the icons themselves overflow the window size.
20120404 07:01:01< gabba> Well, you can't have more that 6 attacks
20120404 07:01:01< faryshta> I think an scroll bar or some arrows up and down the dialog will be the best.
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20120404 07:01:13< faryshta> gabba, what about berzerkers?
20120404 07:01:32< gabba> By which I mean 6 units
20120404 07:01:37< faryshta> Ahh ok.
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20120404 07:02:20< faryshta> Mmm thats correct. Then the icons can be a good idea or labeling each row with a number and having a hover function for when the user moves the mouse to an arrow.
20120404 07:02:27< faryshta> Some jQuery-like effect.
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20120404 07:03:11< gabba> Another idea would be putting a row of unit representations below the attack type boxes, which you can click to see what's their attack, or drag-and-drop to reorder
20120404 07:04:05< gabba> Also, I think that displaying the CTK percent on the main dialog (instead of hidden behind a damage calculations button) might be interesting.
20120404 07:05:12< faryshta> Well on my drid-like layout the defending column can display that.
20120404 07:05:48< gabba> The best thing would be if you presented a few alternative solutions, and asked around what people prefer. Mockups don't have to be nice, they can be crude hand-drawings that you scan or photograph... whatever works and conveys the idea better than text.
20120404 07:07:23< gabba> Isn't the defending column already occupied by the defense value?
20120404 07:07:39< faryshta> grid*
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20120404 08:19:27< vultraz_laptop> you have to BUY MSVC? 
20120404 08:19:32< vultraz_laptop> :S
20120404 08:20:07-!- Kripsi [5600e5b3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.0.229.179] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120404 08:20:08< shadowm> there's a freeware version with less features that are enough for working in Wesnoth
20120404 08:20:14< shadowm> Express Edition, as they call it
20120404 08:21:13< Kripsi> Hi all =)
20120404 08:22:09< shadowm> hi there
20120404 08:23:34< Espreon> 'Ello.
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20120404 08:25:14< shadowm> (39
20120404 08:25:20< shadowm> oops
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20120404 08:30:56< Kripsi> Just thought I'd pop on here and see what it was all about, applying for the GSoC stuff. Nice to meet you all.
20120404 08:31:22< Espreon> Nice to meet you as well.
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20120404 08:55:55< e7th04sh> Hello. I was wondering two things - whether a person that hasn't comitted any patch has a chance of participating in GSoC with Wesnoth, and whether my skills could be helpful in Wesnoth. I've been coding for at least 5 years now, mostly C/C++, some Python. But only minor solo projects, no groupwork and nothing useful for the public.
20120404 08:57:00< e7th04sh> I have a feeling I could at least start with patching most easy tasks, but I'm not sure if i manage to set up environment before the deadline, since my PC is gone now and I am left with a user account at another one...
20120404 08:58:56< Espreon> Well, if you can hog the machine you're using now for a good amount of time each day, it may not be a problem.
20120404 08:59:20< Espreon> Well, or whatever machine you'd be using.
20120404 09:01:01< e7th04sh> Oh, if i got accepted, I would surely find a way to have a working space thrpughout whole summer.
20120404 09:02:03< Espreon> Well, then make a good proposal, fix/implement whatever, be an awesome person, and all should go well.
20120404 09:02:12< Espreon> ... maybe.
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20120404 09:10:06< e7th04sh> Frankly, I wish i was told of GSoC a month ago, not a day. I am a bit overwhelmed right now...
20120404 09:13:40< Upthorn> it happens. I found about my first GSoC on a similar timeline
20120404 09:13:53< Upthorn> but still managed to get accepted to ScummVM
20120404 09:14:01< e7th04sh> Take the ai actions - there are several minor enhancements to ai scripting, like a ai action + lua function to send a chat message to a player. I could try to patch it before applying, tough I haven't seen the code and I've no idea what exactly I would have to do. How long could patching that take, at most, if I was to be accepted?
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20120404 09:14:29< e7th04sh> And would that likely suffice as a proof of technical abilities, or is it too easy?
20120404 09:15:12< Upthorn> you have to have your application in within the next 60 hours
20120404 09:15:28< Upthorn> however, you can continue to work with the community to improve your candidacy after that deadline
20120404 09:15:57< Upthorn> final decisions aren't made until 04-23
20120404 09:16:17< e7th04sh> So up until 23th of April I can improve my standing?
20120404 09:16:34< Upthorn> yes
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20120404 09:17:33< e7th04sh> Now, I've got another problem - I have no idea where I could be of use to wesnoth. And that's an open source project I am most familiar with.
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20120404 09:17:48< Upthorn> check the ideas page first
20120404 09:18:00< Upthorn> wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas
20120404 09:18:06< Upthorn> err
20120404 09:18:09< Upthorn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas
20120404 09:18:26< Upthorn> (http:// is important for clickability)
20120404 09:20:03< Upthorn> if one of these projects looks interesting, you should apply now even if you aren't certain you can accomplish it
20120404 09:20:31< e7th04sh> Yes, I've been reading through the page, but that was my main concern. Thank You, I find some interesting projects here.
20120404 09:21:08< e7th04sh> Defensive AI's are hardcoded, in python or linked libraries? Or anything else?
20120404 09:21:52< e7th04sh> I mean, what are possible implementations of AI strategies in Wesnoth.
20120404 09:23:14< Upthorn> I don't know myself, I'm only a former gsoc student, and I haven't looked at wesnoth's code since april last year
20120404 09:23:22< Upthorn> but crab_ would likely know
20120404 09:24:09< e7th04sh> Well, I shall write several questions here and see the logs later on, if noone responds immediately.
20120404 09:24:23< Upthorn> it is my understanding that he's the most familiar with wesnoth's AI
20120404 09:24:27< e7th04sh> First of all is this the correct place to ask those questions, or should it be somewhere else.
20120404 09:25:24< shadowm> this is the correct place
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20120404 09:43:07< e7th04sh> If i get involved with Wesnoth, that would be a significant leap for me, from a solo amteur coder to a member of a team in a reknown project. I would probably need some tutoring before i was able to make those simple patches, for example how to set up my working environment. Can I expect that?
20120404 09:43:33< e7th04sh> As i suppose there will be quite a few new things to find out about.
20120404 09:46:05< e7th04sh> Another thing, is the AI strategy and AI recruitment pattern implementations seperate at the moment?
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20120404 09:50:52< shadowm> obviously mentors aren't called "mentors" for nothing, although other people can help when they aren't around
20120404 09:51:44< shadowm> as for how the AI works, no idea; but obviously Crab_ knows that area since he did the one major overhaul a few years ago (as a GSoC student, in fact)
20120404 09:52:27< e7th04sh> That of course, the thing is i wasn't sure how much is expected of me, fe. maybe you expect me to download the project, write a patch and submit it on my own, or else judge my skills insufficient. ;]
20120404 09:52:42< e7th04sh> Ok, i guess i'll just wait for crab with all ai relevant questions.
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20120404 10:18:33< Upthorn> e7th04sh: what sort of computer setup do you run? I can help you get wesnoth compiling under visual studio if you're a windows person
20120404 10:19:29< e7th04sh> I might have to work on Windows, so once i talk to the owner of this pc I'd be glad if you help me out.
20120404 10:19:37< e7th04sh> However ideally i'd prefer a Debian.
20120404 10:19:59< Upthorn> Ah
20120404 10:21:38< Upthorn> oh wow, I just realized I've been panicking about the SoC application deadline for no reason
20120404 10:22:06< Upthorn> I keep looking at my computer calendar and thinking that this is wednesday night
20120404 10:22:28< Upthorn> but actually it will still be wednesday when I wake up
20120404 10:23:01< Upthorn> This confusion made possible through the magic of regularly staying up past midnight
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20120404 10:42:54< boucman_mobile> Hey all
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20120404 11:11:21< e7th04sh> I've added this: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:E7th04sh/GSoC
20120404 11:11:47< e7th04sh> Now i have to head to university. I will come back for further guidance in about 6-7 hours.
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20120404 11:23:08< Ayne> Crab_: is it just the wiki you want me to update? And should I remove ai_special or is it better to say that it shouldn't be used anymore?
20120404 11:25:29< CIA-69> crab * r53770 /trunk/ (changelog data/core/about.cfg src/unit.cpp src/unit.hpp): Fixed bug #19599: Engine keeps redundant ai_special information for units. Patch #3235 by Ayne.
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20120404 11:25:39< boucman_mobile> There is à wiki tag to mark dev features, use that to mark removed features too
20120404 11:26:38< Crab_> Ayne: just the wiki. because it's used both for 1.10 and for 1.11, use the wiki tag that boucman is talking about
20120404 11:27:25< e7th04sh> Crab_: hi, i want to apply for GSoC, and I wanted to ask a few questions about Wesnoth AI. I was told You're the right person, but I have to go now. Can i catch You in 6 hours or later?
20120404 11:27:31< Crab_> Ayne: and congratulations on your first committed patch to wesnoth (be sure to mention it on your wiki page or in google's tracker) :)
20120404 11:27:50< Crab_> e7th04sh: possibly so. More chances in 8-10 hours .
20120404 11:28:14< e7th04sh> possibly ;]
20120404 11:28:18< e7th04sh> ok, thank you, see you then
20120404 11:28:54< Crab_> e7th04sh: I'll be online today in the evening, just don't know the exact time.
20120404 11:29:01< Ayne> Crab_: thank you :) I already put it in the questionnaire on my wiki page
20120404 11:29:06< Crab_> great
20120404 11:30:00< Ayne> Crab_, boucman: what's that tag? Or is there a wiki page where I can read up on these things? I have little experience working with wikis
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20120404 11:30:21< Crab_> Ayne: it's nothing wiki-special, just a template we made for our convenience
20120404 11:31:11< Crab_> Ayne: see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/DevFeature
20120404 11:31:39< Crendgrim> hm, that page doesn't even tell how the tag is named.
20120404 11:31:41< Crab_> Ayne: so,  {{DevFeature1.11}}  is the way to insert the template.
20120404 11:31:57< Crab_> Crendgrim: it uses the tag, so just see the source via 'edit'
20120404 11:32:07< Crendgrim> Crab_: sure, but it could be easier :)
20120404 11:32:24< Crab_> Crendgrim: yes
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20120404 11:33:01< Crab_> Ayne: also note that I've added a changelog entry for the bug fixed, when submitting. 
20120404 11:33:35< Crab_> Ayne: we have two changelogs, one for 'stuff that players will notice', and another for every more-or-less major change or bugfix.
20120404 11:34:49< mjs-de> und die panels sehen zu sehr nach Hashwerten aus, als das cih probieren lohnen würde
20120404 11:35:29< Crab_> mjs-de: (please use English in the main #wesnoth-dev channel, sorry)
20120404 11:35:46< mjs-de> oh sorry typed in the wrong window
20120404 11:35:56< Crab_> mjs-de: it's ok :) happens sometimes.
20120404 11:36:20< Crab_> Ayne: I would say that your next biggest priority now is dealing with the I'm not familiar enough with the Wesnoth code yet to give technical detail." item from your proposal.
20120404 11:37:17< Ayne> ok
20120404 11:37:55< Crab_> Ayne: now we know how you handle patches and respond to feedback, we need to see that you can understand what we want to achieve during the summer and propose a way (timeline and simple implementation plan) to do that.
20120404 11:38:46< Crab_> Ayne: so, study the source and ask questions, if necessary. 
20120404 11:38:54< Crab_> two points of interest:
20120404 11:39:22< Crab_> 1) try to make or find a small and simple 2-scenario campaign and see what happens after first scenario is won, and how leader, recall list and gold are transferred to second scenario.
20120404 11:39:35< Crab_> 2) figure out how campaign difficulty levels work.
20120404 11:40:10< Crab_> I would say the best (and most fun) way is to make your own small two-scenario campaign
20120404 11:41:07< Crab_> as core wesnoth developers, we provide *tools* for our community to use to build really great stuff. so, it's important to understand how they use the tools we provide, and (by looking in the source and debugging), how they really work.
20120404 11:41:22< Crab_> Ayne: Does this seem reasonable?
20120404 11:46:06< Crab_> jamit, mattsc : yes, you're right, avoiding border locations doesn't change anything.
20120404 11:46:56< Ayne> Crab_: I will try add at least a little more detail. But I can't neglect my university deadlines completely and I have a lot of work there as well.
20120404 11:47:26< Ayne> But I'll try to familiarize myself with it a bit today and then maybe later we can have a chat about your ideas for the project?
20120404 11:47:32< Crab_> Ayne: yes, we can.
20120404 11:47:59< Crab_> Ayne: making (or copying) a small 2-scenario campaign shouldn't take long and seems to be the best investment of time.
20120404 11:48:27< Crab_> Ayne: you need to know from a 'scenario designer' perspective how gold and units are carried over to next scenario
20120404 11:48:37< Ayne> ok
20120404 11:49:05< Crab_> since we want to refactor the code while still keeping current capabilities for carrying stuff over.
20120404 11:49:19< Ayne> I'm just a little confused. Campaigns are single player, right? Or are there multiplayer campaigns as well and I just havent found them yet?
20120404 11:49:40< Crab_> so, even if you don't touch c++ or debug to see how it happens 'under the hood', creating the scenario would give you most of the knowledge you need.
20120404 11:49:59< Crab_> there are multiplayer campaigns, but they often have some funny bugs
20120404 11:50:11< Crab_> you need to download them as addons to get them
20120404 11:50:48< Crab_> and our changes of scenario transition system would allow to make it more easy to make multiplayer campaigns.
20120404 11:51:41< Ayne> ah ok, it was just that the wiki idea page says multiplayer engine refactoring, but it talks about campaigns and I wasn't able to find multiplayer campaigns
20120404 11:53:33< Crab_> Ayne: check the forum http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewforum.php?f=15
20120404 11:53:54< Crab_> you'll see what people are trying to build. They still manage to do it, by working around the known bugs
20120404 11:54:41< Crab_> (btw, it's usual with the scenario designer community to work around a bug instead of reporting it and trying to get it fixed - because it's faster to just work around)
20120404 11:55:24< Crab_> and the guys in our scenario designer community are very creative - if there's a way to work around a bug, they'll usually find it :)
20120404 11:56:55< Ayne> :) i'll have a look
20120404 11:59:03< Crab_> for example, just look at http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=34363
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20120404 12:00:11< Crab_> (and, looking at those rules for safely reloading MP campaigns, try to guess the number of bugs in the code which does the save/load/next scenario logic :) )
20120404 12:03:54< Ayne> wow. that looks like you just have to breathe at the wrong time and it'll break
20120404 12:05:05< Crab_> fixing such mess is the main goal of the project.
20120404 12:05:36< Crab_> if the rules for loading/saving/transitions would be more clear and well-understood, there would be less bugs and it'd be possible to make things 'just work'.
20120404 12:05:50< Crab_> and since the current code is a mess, we should probably just rewrite it
20120404 12:06:27< Crab_> but, to do that, we need to know the 'expected' current behavior of carryover of gold and units.
20120404 12:07:12< Crab_> also note that 'save' and 'load' are also transitions between scenarios, so we might need to solve a few issues there, as well.
20120404 12:07:32< Crab_> this is especially fun with saves because we want people to be able to use their old saves, if possible.
20120404 12:08:06< Crab_> that means that we'll have some parts of code dedicated to 'upgrading' old saves when loading them.
20120404 12:09:33< Crab_> and this also means that, in time, we'll have to talk to most of MP campaign developers and actually help them fix their campaigns if any fixes would be required to make them work.
20120404 12:10:30< Crab_> if we properly document how things work and what they need to do, they'll be able to use the documentation, but we would (most likely) still need to help them fix their code (we might uncover even more bugs in our code that way)
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20120404 12:13:21< Ayne> sounds like fun ;)
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20120404 12:14:26< Crab_> Ayne: definitely :) so, I'll go now, if you'll have any further questions - leave them in the log or ask later. Good luck.
20120404 12:15:10< Ayne> ok, see you later!
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20120404 13:18:30< CIA-69> jamit * r53771 /trunk/changelog: changelog for r53763
20120404 13:21:16< CIA-69> jamit * r53772 /trunk/src/ai/lua/core.cpp: No need to include border hexes in the AI's avoid aspect (Lua).
20120404 13:25:34< fendrin> wesbot: seen beetlenaut?
20120404 13:25:34< wesbot> fendrin: Sorry, I don't know of beetlenaut.
20120404 13:25:38< fendrin> wesbot: seen beetlenaut_?
20120404 13:25:38< wesbot> fendrin: Sorry, I don't know of beetlenaut_.
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20120404 13:45:01< bjacob__> Hi! mozilla dev here. Has anyone ever compiled wesnoth for the Web using Emscripten?
20120404 13:45:48< bjacob__> other question: is wesnoth using only SDL ? or also OpenGL? If OpenGL, is it using the fixed-function or programmable (as in OpenGL ES 2) API ?
20120404 13:47:05< boucman_mobile> Only sdl so far
20120404 13:48:00< bjacob__> boucman_mobile: thanks!
20120404 13:48:21< bjacob__> SDL and OpenGL ES2 are easy to port to the web
20120404 13:48:25< bjacob__> OpenGL 1 is a PITA
20120404 13:49:49-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.10.2 planned for April 7th, string freeze for branches/1.10 | Wesnoth accepted in GSoC 2012 | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 164 bugs, 328 feature requests, 16 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120404 13:50:21< loonycyborg> bjacob__: Wouldn't wesnoth be kinda heavy for Emscripten?
20120404 13:50:41< bjacob__> loonycyborg: no, we're doing far worse :) you'll see later this year :)
20120404 13:51:01< bjacob__> loonycyborg: but having a real FOSS community game like Wesnoth is specially interesting/useful
20120404 13:51:08 * boucman_mobile likes that conversation:)
20120404 13:52:46< bjacob__> i'm trying to get the main emscripten devs to file a 'mentored bug' for porting wesnoth with emscripted. that means a bug with explanations and them agreeing to mentor people for that. 
20120404 13:53:33< bjacob__> something that people will find using this tool, http://www.joshmatthews.net/bugsahoy/
20120404 13:54:05< Crendgrim> the point of emscripten is to run applications in the browser, right?
20120404 13:54:11< bjacob__> Crendgrim: yes
20120404 13:54:24< bjacob__> emcripten = LLVM-to-JS compiler
20120404 13:54:40< bjacob__> SDL is already ported, so wesnoth is a very good candidate
20120404 13:55:17< Crendgrim> bjacob__: well, there are *a lot* of resources in Wesnoth (art, sounds, music, ...). Isn't that too much to be transmitted over the Internet? I mean, it would take quite a while to load..
20120404 13:55:23< bjacob__> OpenGL ES 2 -> WebGL is the current hot project, see http://ehsanakhgari.org/blog/2012-01-25/porting-opengl-application-web
20120404 13:55:40< Crendgrim> (I have no idea how it works, I'm only curious, for I cannot imagine how it works :p )
20120404 13:56:00< bjacob__> Crendgrim: the question is how much do you need to load, say, the main menu? the first level of a campaign?
20120404 13:56:46< Crendgrim> right, you don't always need everything... that I didn't think about
20120404 13:57:55< bjacob__> have a look at this demo... i doubt that wesnoth is as heavy as that (requires WebGL, means requires a recent enough graphics driver): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6873971/data/cube2/index.html
20120404 13:58:03< loonycyborg> bjacob__: But there are other deps than SDL to wesnoth. Like pango and boost.
20120404 13:58:39< bjacob__> loonycyborg: boost is c++ headers only so it evaporates during compilation, right? or is there a binary library?
20120404 13:59:13< bjacob__> for pango we'll see
20120404 13:59:15< loonycyborg> There are some libraries wesnoth uses.
20120404 13:59:32< loonycyborg> Namely boost.iostreams and boost.regex
20120404 13:59:32< bjacob__> the Lua interpreter is not a problem: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6873971/data/cube2/index.html
20120404 13:59:54< bjacob__> sorry, this: (Lua): http://syntensity.com/static/lua.html
20120404 14:00:19< bjacob__> still not worried :) many libraries already ported: https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/wiki
20120404 14:00:29< loonycyborg> Though that probably won't be a problem by itself.
20120404 14:00:45< bjacob__> for example, freetype and poppler are already ported
20120404 14:00:52< loonycyborg> The thing is boost involves some really cutting edge c++ :P
20120404 14:01:03< bjacob__> loonycyborg: that's resolved by the LLVM front-end
20120404 14:01:18< bjacob__> emscripted only kicks in after that's resolved, handles LLVM IR
20120404 14:02:00< loonycyborg> Which LLVM front-end you're generally using?
20120404 14:02:18< bjacob__> Clang, i guess, for C/C++ applications
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20120404 14:05:28< loonycyborg> Well.. Wesnoth was successfully built with clang before, so yeah.
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20120404 14:11:20< anonymissimus> gabba: regarding your compilation errors; no idea, I'm guessing it must be something among your setup
20120404 14:14:52< loonycyborg> bjacob__: Even if clang won't work you can always use this: http://dragonegg.llvm.org/ :P
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20120404 14:15:53< bjacob__> true too. though in 2012, projects that dont compile with clang with at most some trivial fixes, are getting rare
20120404 14:16:07< bjacob__> heck, even firefox does
20120404 14:16:10< anonymissimus> gabba: which file did you add ? (my diff just shows the whole file due to EOL crap)
20120404 14:18:20< vultraz_laptop> anonymissimus: is this what I need if I want to compile on windows? http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010-editions/visual-cpp-express
20120404 14:23:00< anonymissimus> vultraz_laptop: probably; could you please not highlight me because of questions which I know you can solve yourself ? :)
20120404 14:23:41< vultraz_laptop> hehe....just checking which of the several versions was the right one
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20120404 14:35:03< anonymissimus> zookeeper: could you perhaps have some look at https://gna.org/patch/?3235 and tell me whether you would like to have [unit]ai_special= (and perhaps [filter]ai_special= as well) deprecated ub favor of [unit]guardian=yes ?
20120404 14:35:17-!- e7th04sh [3e3d3ab7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.61.58.183] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120404 14:35:50< anonymissimus> I mean [unit][status]guardian=yes
20120404 14:36:38< zookeeper> i've got no objections to that, especially when apparently compatibility is being kept
20120404 14:37:14< e7th04sh> I've been thinking about a possible GSoC project. So i thought - how about creating a sort of framework or what you call it, or a set of tools, that analyze fe. game maps, recruitable unit sets etc. to preprocess them for the AI.
20120404 14:37:41< vultraz_laptop> is there anything else ai_special= could be anyway besides guardian?
20120404 14:37:49< anonymissimus> zookeeper: uhm well; no; [unit]ai_special= is currently mentioned in the wiki to be deprcated
20120404 14:38:15< zookeeper> yet the patch continues to handle it
20120404 14:38:18< anonymissimus> though it still works without a warning  (judging from teh code without test)
20120404 14:38:27< zookeeper> vultraz_laptop, not that i know of
20120404 14:38:59< anonymissimus> vultraz_laptop: no; that was the point of removing it
20120404 14:39:21< zookeeper> anonymissimus, the only thing is that adding [status] guardian=yes [/status] would sometimes be more ackward than ai_special=guardian
20120404 14:39:31< anonymissimus> yup
20120404 14:39:35< zookeeper> like when you need to append that to a unit-spawning macro call
20120404 14:40:06< anonymissimus> and I also assume that perhaps [+unit]ai_special=guardian ... is used a lot
20120404 14:40:09< e7th04sh> For example I could create a tool that can pre-game or in-game process map to divide it into zones, that can be used by the AI for strategical planning. This zones could be manually tweaked by map author, and a protype AI could arrange warfare plans, defence lines and assaults, divide units into sections and set goals for them etc. These goals and sections could be accessible for scenario maker through, i don't know how this wor
20120404 14:40:27< zookeeper> i don't recall seeing that much, but sure, someone probably does it like that
20120404 14:40:33< vultraz_laptop> I do
20120404 14:41:09< Crendgrim> I've also done that sometimes.. and saw others doing it as well
20120404 14:41:11< anonymissimus> ok then I write comment that
20120404 14:41:11< e7th04sh> The handles could be used to set certain zones as priorities, or adjust the default AI to special rules and events of scenario, as well as to tweak it to play better in certain scenario.
20120404 14:41:34< zookeeper> e7th04sh, i think the game positioning and grouping of units tends to fluctuate so much depending on the situation, that i don't think an approach based on static zones would be a good idea
20120404 14:41:41< zookeeper> -game
20120404 14:42:27< e7th04sh> Would that still be the case if the zones were fuzzy?
20120404 14:42:41< zookeeper> hard to tell
20120404 14:44:08< e7th04sh> I would need to research bfw's ai to know how can i improve on it, but the time is running low on me...
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20120404 14:46:05< e7th04sh> How about a tool for analysis of possible recruits, that preprocesses their relative advantages to help recruitment alghoritms?
20120404 14:46:09< Ayne> hi
20120404 14:46:49< e7th04sh> Or a set of handles for scenario makers that set goals and priorities for the ai controlled sides?
20120404 14:46:52< Ayne> anonymissimus: What would you suggest I should put in the wiki instead?
20120404 14:47:09< zookeeper> e7th04sh, why would preprocessing be needed? why not just run the analysis every turn (or even before every recruit)?
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20120404 14:49:03< e7th04sh> Hmm... What i have in mind is, whenever you create a single player scenario, each side may have a unique recruitment possibilities. AI recruitment alghoritm could analyse current situation including money supply, and pick a certain set of traits that in seeks in one unit.
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20120404 14:49:09< zookeeper> anonymissimus, Ayne, well, seriously, the code for keeping support for ai_special=guardian is so trivial that i don't see a reason to not simply keep it for the foreseeable future.
20120404 14:49:47< e7th04sh> Instead of comparing units themself, a more general characteristic could be created whenever recruitment list updates.
20120404 14:50:28< Ayne> zookeeper: so you're suggesting leaving the wiki as it was and letting people decide for themselves which one they want to use?
20120404 14:51:04< zookeeper> if you only need a 3-line if statement to keep the compatibility, then... just keep the compatibility without deprecation warnings, i'd say. if keeping support is entirely trivial then there's no reason to remove it except for borderline-OCD purism reasons :p
20120404 14:51:16< Crendgrim> Ayne: btw, I updated the wiki, making it clear that [status]guardian= is 1.11 only, but that ai_special=guardian still is working on 1.10
20120404 14:51:49< anonymissimus> Crendgrim: not correct; I bet that that works in 1.10 already
20120404 14:51:54< Crendgrim> it does?
20120404 14:52:02< zookeeper> Ayne, yeah. just document both [status] guardian= and ai_special=guardian and say the latter is just a shortcut for the former. i think that's the best way, unless i'm missing something.
20120404 14:52:02< Crendgrim> then I'm sorry.
20120404 14:52:05< anonymissimus> I supposed (not tested)
20120404 14:52:24< e7th04sh> Like instead of checking the bare values, you use preprocessed ones - fe. a unit is characterised by preprocessing as, let's say "fast, defensive" and the ai recruitment alghoritm decides it needs a unit to reach and defend certain point of map. Maybe that's not the best example, as in this particular case it'd be best to calculate on what turn exactly could the unit arrive at the spot. 
20120404 14:52:28< Crendgrim> anyways, at least the documenation for ai_special=guardian needs to stay in place as long as it's supported..
20120404 14:52:30< anonymissimus> well, I have nothing to add to zookeeper's words
20120404 14:53:00< Ayne> Crendgrim: both should work in 1.10 and 1.11, except in 1.11 they're no longer stored in seperate places
20120404 14:53:12< e7th04sh> But when the exact purpose of unit is not obvious at recruitment time, then the preprocessing could make things easier for development of various different recruitment alghoritms.
20120404 14:53:22< Crendgrim> Ayne: I see.
20120404 14:54:19< e7th04sh> Basically I would like to add easily reusable capability of strategic planning to any AI alghoritm that could make use of it.
20120404 14:55:02< e7th04sh> However if that doesn't seem a good project, I could think of other options.
20120404 14:55:40< zookeeper> e7th04sh, well, unit types already define whether they're a "fighter", "archer", "healer", etc, and when the recruitment pattern tells the AI it should get a fighter next, it looks at all "fighter" unit it can recruit and decides between them AFAIK based on how their stats look vs the enemies the AI is facing
20120404 14:56:57< e7th04sh> Yes, I was aware of the hard-written unit types. I wanted to sort of improve on that concept, so that the capabilities of units are assesed relatively and through artifical intelligence.
20120404 14:57:55< zookeeper> giving the scenario designer better controls over what units and how many the AI will choose to recruit is a good idea (since currently we often use rather ugly WML hacks for that), but i don't think you need any kind of fancy preprocessed analysis for that
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20120404 15:00:20< Ayne> zookeeper, anonymissimus: How about "ai_special: causes the unit to act differently   "guardian" the unit will not move, except to attack something in the turn it moves (so, it only can move if an enemy unit gets within range of it). (Version 1.11 and later only) Effect is identical to that of [status] guardian = 'yes'." and guardian: if 'yes', the unit will not move, except to attack something in the turn it moves (so, i
20120404 15:00:38< zookeeper> all that the scenario designer really needs is to be able to both 1) tell the AI to independently make _good_ choices WRT what to recruit and 2) give the AI ratios of each unit type (whether the exact type, or the "usage" like "archer") that it should get.
20120404 15:02:00< zookeeper> Ayne, works for me. could be worded even better but as long as it's clear what it does, i don't care too much ;)
20120404 15:02:55< zookeeper> e7th04sh, ... and 3) some kind of middle ground between the two
20120404 15:03:02< Ayne> zookeeper, does "does the same as" sound better to you? ;)
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20120404 15:11:37< Nephro> what is this ai_special=guardian you are talking about?
20120404 15:12:33< Nephro> if it is what I think it is, I might try to tie it to LuaAI just to show off :)
20120404 15:12:35< anonymissimus> Nephro: it makes au units stay put unless enemy is in their attack reach
20120404 15:12:52< anonymissimus> AI
20120404 15:12:58< Ayne> Nephro: it's a wml to stop units from moving so they'll only attack if you're within their reach, like the dummies in the first part of the tutorial
20120404 15:13:24< Nephro> are there any other options besides guardian?
20120404 15:13:30< anonymissimus> no
20120404 15:13:57< Nephro> and the implementation is in C++ I presume?
20120404 15:14:11< Ayne> no, that's why ai_special was removed from the c++, it now only changes [status] guardian
20120404 15:15:15< anonymissimus> Nephro: the code which checks whether a unot has that status and then not moves the unit is somewhere in the C++ AI
20120404 15:17:08< anonymissimus> adding more such behaviors in c++ probably doesn't make much sense; in one of mattsc's scenarios he defined behaviors such as "running away" in sole lua
20120404 15:17:47< anonymissimus> a cowerad unit behavior; staying out of the reach of any enemy unit
20120404 15:18:09< anonymissimus> coward
20120404 15:18:14< Nephro> yes, that's probably when he found out that my sticky candidate actions are bugged
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20120404 16:12:52< Nephro> What's the good and easy way to create tables for a wiki page? I need to do the timeline section. 
20120404 16:15:24< e7th04sh> zookeeper: ok, another idea then. Is scenario designer able to force certain ratios or fixed numbers and kinds of unit to achieve certain goals? Simplest example - force always using at least 50% of blue force move toward red keep, leaving only at most 50% to attack green keep? More complex - player side takes part in a battle, where entire sections of friendlies and enemies have fixed behavior on general scope, but specific mov
20120404 16:15:55< zookeeper> cut off at "but specific mov"
20120404 16:16:18< e7th04sh> ...es are and attackes are determined by default ai.
20120404 16:17:13< e7th04sh> Example of handle - set travel point for all red units in certain area1 to area2 at priority level medium - makes the ai favor moves that cause affected units to move toward area2
20120404 16:18:05< Nephro> e7th04sh, if I understand you correctly, then yes, there is a way to do that
20120404 16:18:06< e7th04sh> (sorry for leaving earlier and i will have to leave for another hour soon)
20120404 16:18:25< e7th04sh> Nephro how does that work at the moment?
20120404 16:20:14< zookeeper> e7th04sh, i'm not really an AI expert, but i don't think so. i think you can make the AI units execute certain moves if the specified conditions are true, but i don't think you can (easily) make it work like you described.
20120404 16:20:43< e7th04sh> zookeeper, and that would be helpful for scenario designers wouldn't it?
20120404 16:20:47< Nephro> well, you write a candidate action for that, and make it very high priority(higher than the standard movement candidate action). Since the task is not too common, you will probably want to write such a candidate action in Lua and add it to the rca_loop on the fly. You can also place the candidate action in the Lua library(not yet defined, but soon will be), therefore other people will be able to reuse it
20120404 16:20:49< zookeeper> e7th04sh, but better ask crab or someone who really knows what they're talking about
20120404 16:21:33< e7th04sh> i just bother you guys because crab is not here, and I try to use the little time i have before filing application best way possible
20120404 16:21:48< zookeeper> e7th04sh, it'd depend on how exactly it'd work and if it'd be easy to use
20120404 16:23:32< e7th04sh> well it would require to pass orders to ai code
20120404 16:24:02< e7th04sh> so that would be only usable with compatible ai
20120404 16:24:33< e7th04sh> ok, i have to go again. i'll try to describe it better when i'm back
20120404 16:24:50< Nephro> as for the example with  " force certain ratios or fixed numbers and kinds of unit to achieve certain goals"... You make a stage before the rca_loop that will  analyze and split your units into groups, then the appropriate CA's do the job
20120404 16:24:53< Nephro> very simple
20120404 16:25:27< Nephro> LuaAI has an object for static data, so CA's can communicate
20120404 16:25:35< Nephro> I don't think C++ can do that
20120404 16:26:46< e7th04sh> Nephro but do you see a general reusable solution here, or rather you see that doing this on a case by case basis is easy?
20120404 16:27:18< e7th04sh> I'm not sure how easy or hard is what you describe. I want to reach out to more people, so they can make better campaigns with simpler tools.
20120404 16:28:05< zookeeper> the thing is that AI customization tends to get really difficult really fast
20120404 16:28:06< Nephro> e7th04sh, once you do something, you store it in the library, so it's reusable. You can't generally define one way for the AI to be able to do different things
20120404 16:29:10< Nephro> e7th04sh, what you are suggesting is the "idea concept"... You have to teach the AI the idea at least once, before it can reuse it infinitely
20120404 16:29:39< Nephro> the framework for that is already functioning, it only needs polishing
20120404 16:30:04< zookeeper> ...therefore, the #1 most useful thing would usually be to just make the AI play better ;) after the AI learns to play better, the scenario designer can affect its behaviour by giving it different units, for instance
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20120404 16:30:41< Nephro> e.g. I have implemented a patrolling concept for the units. Right now, you can make any unit you want, to patrol the map on certain waypoints.
20120404 16:31:30< Nephro> I even think this function is used in one of the mainline campaigns
20120404 16:33:19< HappyKsuh> guys, can smb pls give me fast introduction to AI engines? I looked up the code of AI/default and the question is - AI/composite and AI/formula are also engines that are used in game?
20120404 16:34:58< Nephro> zookeeper, as I see this problem: the campaign games usually fully depend on customization, while single games(where the player just plays against an AI on a symmetric map with the same starting set), don't need any customization at all.
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20120404 16:36:40< Nephro> zookeeper, if we make the current AI play better, and maybe even play smart, I think some campaigns will become impossible to complete, then we would have to restrict the skills of the AI
20120404 16:37:34< Nephro> HappyKsuh, have you read Crabs description of it?
20120404 16:38:05< HappyKsuh> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AI_Module here?
20120404 16:38:24< Nephro> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#how_AI_works.2C_a_short_developer-oriented_overview
20120404 16:38:28< Nephro> this ^
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20120404 16:39:11< HappyKsuh> Nephro: nope, thx
20120404 16:39:31< zookeeper> Nephro, well, the way i see it is that if we had an AI that could play really well, then we wouldn't need much more than to be able to give it _objectives_. the rest would be up to the units, gold etc that the scenario designer gives it. sure some customization like patrolling is nice, but generally i think most customization is a reaction to the AI playing poorly without them.
20120404 16:39:34< Nephro> but read that text part before going into detail
20120404 16:42:06< Nephro> zookeeper, well, I agree with that. But imagine a scenario where we need to clear a map from all kinds of evil things. We start out with a small force, but the whole map is infested with monsters. A smart AI would instantly send everything to kill you and would succeed. The story concept requires the AI to behave in very certain ways
20120404 16:43:53< Nephro> zookeeper, also, the human mind is capable of generating tricky stuff, like luring, for example. I don't see absolutely no way of making the AI so good, that it would decide to lure someone. But we can certainly teach it, that in certain situations, we can activate the custom lure concept, and try to pull it off
20120404 16:44:01< vultraz_laptop> OK... MSVC2010 installed
20120404 16:44:06< vultraz_laptop> now to get the source code
20120404 16:51:45< mattsc> zookeeper, I am (very slowly and inexpertly) working on finding ways to make the AI play better.
20120404 16:52:04< HappyKsuh> Nephro: so, the main engine is Composite? and Lua is the expected future engine, and default is mostly not in use?
20120404 16:52:12< mattsc> If you have specific suggestions what could be changed, I'd like to hear them (the more specific the better)
20120404 16:53:56< Nephro> HappyKsuh, I don't know which engine is used by the mainline campaigns to be honest, I've always worked only on the side the Lua is hooked to. The composite ai is an AI system, not an engine. There are three engines, that composite AI can use in any combination it wants: C++, Lua and fai.
20120404 16:55:11< Nephro> Currently, most of the functionality is in the C++ engine, but the interface to Lua will soon be complete. The future, well, I assume that Lua will be used much more, when it's done, mostly because it's a scripting language, no recompilation is required etc
20120404 16:55:37< zookeeper> Nephro, well, improving the AI wouldn't change such a clear-the-map scenario
20120404 16:55:41< HappyKsuh> Nephro, formula of course, not composite)
20120404 16:56:40< Nephro> zookeeper, no, I meant, a smart non-customized AI wouldn't stand and wait if you don't tell it to.
20120404 16:57:22< Nephro> HappyKsuh, to be completely honest, I never even saw formula engine in action. I once removed some of formula ai code to replace it with Lua
20120404 16:58:40< zookeeper> Nephro, sure. customization for scenarios like that has and always will be needed
20120404 16:59:01< Nephro> zookeeper, also, the AIs of strategic will always have a brick wall in front of it in the means of complexity
20120404 16:59:11< Nephro> strategic games*
20120404 17:00:52< HappyKsuh> Nephro, and the main question is related to my task: as I saw recruitment algo is implemented in engine, so the question is - It is implemented in the same way in all the engines, and if I'd change smth in default engine, I should do the same in Lua and Formula?
20120404 17:02:48< Nephro> zookeeper, I also think, that both, improving the AI in general and improving the ability to customize should be run in parallel. The customizers can create a variety of scripts that can be used as weapons by the ai, and the general ai should know, when and how to use these weapons
20120404 17:02:55< Nephro> I think that's the way to go
20120404 17:04:08< mattsc> HappyKsuh: recruitment is not done by the engine, but by a candidate action using one of the engines.
20120404 17:04:23< mattsc> Check out http://wiki.wesnoth.org/General_RCA_AI_Howto (and let me know if that makes sense)
20120404 17:04:42< Nephro> HappyKsuh, the engines run independently from one another. Imagine you have a set of legos of three colors. You can build your house entirely red, or you can mix things up. The same goes for the AI. You can take the recruitment from the c++ engine, the battle from fai and leader control from Lua
20120404 17:04:59< Nephro> but currently recruitment is only implemented in c++ as far as I know
20120404 17:06:22< HappyKsuh> Nephro, that's exactly what I was looking for :) thx a lot
20120404 17:06:44< Nephro> you probably  directed that to mattsc 
20120404 17:06:59< Nephro> mattsc, by the way, great job on the LuaAI_howto page
20120404 17:07:24< mattsc> Nephro: there are a couple Formula AI recruitment algorithms in the core folders, but I think they aren't used by anything
20120404 17:09:05< mattsc> Nephro, thanks - but I've already come across a few things that aren't strictly true on that page...  I really need to update it.
20120404 17:09:42< Nephro> mattsc, well, things might change drastically with the LuaAI, so you might as well wait for a while
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20120404 17:10:25< mattsc> true.  That would be very good!
20120404 17:10:53< HappyKsuh> mattsc, the thing is that I'm working on timeline of the project, and the project is "Improving the AI recruitment algo", so I needed the information about how and where that recruitment is implemented)
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20120404 17:11:56< mattsc> HappyKsuh, did you get what you need now or can we help with anything else?
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20120404 17:12:34< HappyKsuh> mattsc, got it, thx
20120404 17:12:50< Nephro> HappyKsuh, src/ai/testing/
20120404 17:13:13< Nephro> ca_testing_recruitment.*
20120404 17:13:44< mattsc> member:HappyKsuh, great
20120404 17:14:01< mattsc> (oops, sory, how did that happen...?)
20120404 17:15:07< HappyKsuh> Nephro, what about src/ai/default/ai.*?
20120404 17:16:13< Nephro> HappyKsuh, as I said, I don't know which one is used for mainline campaigns... I think once I heard a phrase "the current mainline AI uses the default ai, which is actually rewired to the composite ai"
20120404 17:16:26< Nephro> but I am only 5% sure about this
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20120404 17:16:58< Nephro> you can find where it will go stepping through the code with a debugger
20120404 17:17:19< HappyKsuh> Nephro, ok
20120404 17:17:30< mattsc> HappyKsuh: there's a bit of a terminology problem here.  The old default AI (up to BfW 1.8) was called Default.
20120404 17:17:51< mattsc> As of 1.9, RCA (composite) is the default.
20120404 17:18:04< Nephro> mattsc, will you be here later today? I would like you to take a look at my page when I complete it, since you use the LuaAI quite extensively.
20120404 17:18:40< mattsc> Nephro: I should be on most of the day, but won't always have time to react right away.
20120404 17:19:07< Nephro> mattsc, is it morning right now in Canada?
20120404 17:19:26< mattsc> yep, 8:20 in my timezone
20120404 17:19:37< Nephro> ah I see... There is no way I will go to sleep before you :)
20120404 17:22:04< mattsc> HappyKsuh: However, it still uses some of the code in src/ai/default as well
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20120404 17:43:28< anonymissimus> Nephro, mattsc btw don't forget this one http://gna.org/bugs/index.php?19086
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20120404 17:44:45< Nephro> anonymissimus, I will tackle that one, once I'm finished with my wiki page and a caching mechanism for heavy objects in Lua 
20120404 17:46:01< mattsc> Nephro, it should be very easy.  All you have to do is accept my suggested solution.  ;)
20120404 17:47:23< Nephro> mattsc, will do :)
20120404 17:48:55< Nephro> zookeeper, do you mind if I post an excerpt of our chat to my wiki page? It illustrates a couple of good point in my opinion
20120404 17:49:59< zookeeper> Nephro, fine by me
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20120404 17:59:53< Kripsi> Hi all. I'm applying for the summer of code projects and have been advised to look into writing some example patches. Long shot I'm sure, but anyone got any simple example bugs that I could practise on?
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20120404 18:05:52< anonymissimus> wesbot: seen Oleg
20120404 18:05:52< wesbot> anonymissimus: The person with the nick Oleg 12d 2h ago they left with the message: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
20120404 18:08:36< anonymissimus> Kripsi: well, some of the easy ones have already been captured by various people; I think http://gna.org/bugs/?19533#attached is potentially easy to fix
20120404 18:09:45< e7th04sh> The thing is, what i see is that many different people want to work on improving the ai defence.
20120404 18:10:55< e7th04sh> zookeeper: Nephro i can try and compete with them, but i wanted to find my own unique contribution.
20120404 18:11:31< anonymissimus> this one also hasn't a patch yet http://gna.org/bugs/?func=detailitem&item_id=19322 and is supposedly an easier bug
20120404 18:11:51< Nephro> e7th04sh, you certainly can compete, but you need to provide proof that you are able to program for wesnoth and clearly explain your idea to the orgs
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20120404 18:13:02< e7th04sh> the point is, i am trying to match possible opportunities in wesnoth to my skills. creating a good ai on its own requires very good skill as a player, and i don't think i (much like half of other people) have that
20120404 18:13:16< e7th04sh> anyways
20120404 18:13:54< e7th04sh> I will talk to the owner of the only pc i have at the moment, so that I can set up environment here. Someone offered help, but they're not here. Anyone can help me do that on windows?
20120404 18:14:23< e7th04sh> I would want to try making a couple of easy patches already to check/prove my skills.
20120404 18:14:48< e7th04sh> I suppose i should use visual studio, is that right?
20120404 18:14:54< anonymissimus> e7th04sh: follow (2) here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows
20120404 18:15:31< e7th04sh> I hope working with msvc is not so different to dev c++ that i always used on windows.
20120404 18:16:06 * anonymissimus hopes we'll have at least 1 windows GSoC student
20120404 18:16:16< anonymissimus> not at all
20120404 18:16:37< anonymissimus> wesnoth is just painfully slow in compilation and debugging
20120404 18:16:39< e7th04sh> well i am actually a debianer
20120404 18:16:55< e7th04sh> but my pc is gone since last summer
20120404 18:17:20< e7th04sh> so i'll have to do with hat i have
20120404 18:17:47< e7th04sh> how long can compiling wesnoth take, roughly?
20120404 18:17:51< Kripsi> man I feel so out my depth with all this. Maybe I'm not cut out for this yet. :P
20120404 18:17:56< e7th04sh> assuming clean build
20120404 18:18:42< e7th04sh> yeah i feel that too, but whatever - i'll apply and try to do some stuff. it's up to guys here to decide if i suffice
20120404 18:19:22< HappyKsuh> e7th04sh, smth like half an our on intel SU7300 1.3 GHZ
20120404 18:19:30< Kripsi> yep. That's pretty much what i'm going to do.
20120404 18:19:31< e7th04sh> oh, that's not too bad
20120404 18:19:50< HappyKsuh> e7th04sh, in MSVC 2010
20120404 18:20:13< e7th04sh> i will download msvc now, 2010 is recommended? i see that there is 2011 available
20120404 18:20:41< HappyKsuh> e7th04sh, however it is still in beta, isn't it?
20120404 18:20:48< e7th04sh> true that
20120404 18:21:07< e7th04sh> anyways i have no idea about msvc, is it obtainable for free for me, for the period of GSoC at least?
20120404 18:22:02< HappyKsuh> e7th04sh, they have free version called "Express edition", but not quite sure about terms of use in open source projects)
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20120404 18:22:25< Kripsi> i'm using 2010 for visual studio. you can get a student version from MSDN if your university supports it.
20120404 18:23:24< e7th04sh> Kripsi: as far as i recall it was mentioned at my uni. Gotta inquire.
20120404 18:28:45< e7th04sh> i see there is a guide for dev c++, i might just go with that; anyone knows if this should work with current version?
20120404 18:30:27< Nephro> anonymissimus, why do you want windows students in gsoc? :D
20120404 18:31:51< anonymissimus> Nephro: pure egoism
20120404 18:31:55< Nephro> anonymissimus, that could lead to some problems you know. Some parts that compile and work well in windows, won't compile on gcc. It took me about a week last year to figure out why is everyone yelling at me, that my code doesn't compile, when I compiled it with no problems at all
20120404 18:33:15< Nephro> I said compile 4 times in two sentences, can't be good
20120404 18:33:21< anonymissimus> yup; it is generally recommended to compile with a secondary MinGw compiler when developing a cross-platform project on windows (not just wesnoth)
20120404 18:33:57< anonymissimus> Nephro: but mind you, it can well happen the other way round as well and it can take a lot of time to fix it
20120404 18:35:00< anonymissimus> so there's the egoism :P
20120404 18:35:03< Nephro> anonymissimus, the guys on ##c++ said, that my code is stupid and invalid and mocked me for using that compiler.
20120404 18:35:15< Nephro> they tend to get mean there
20120404 18:35:59< e7th04sh> oh well, i would set up cross-compiling too, given some helping hand
20120404 18:36:10< anonymissimus> well; as a compiler MSVC may not be the best; *but* its debugger *has* its advantages and you con't get that on Linux
20120404 18:36:28< anonymissimus> and you can ask mordante or so, I know he agrees
20120404 18:38:09< anonymissimus> IIRC every single time the MSVC debugger crashed for me with wesnoth it was a valid issue which gdb simply didn't notice
20120404 18:39:09< Nephro> e7th04sh, Kripsi you shouldn't be worried about not being prepared for this. The goal of GSoC is to learn things and gain experience
20120404 18:40:07< Nephro> well, you should be, but it's not something you would give up because of(I doubt this sentence is structured correctly, but you'll have to forgive me)
20120404 18:40:31< Nephro> anonymissimus, no one still believes me, that I've seen that thing running code backwards :D
20120404 18:42:16< e7th04sh> :)
20120404 18:42:18< e7th04sh> i think it is
20120404 18:43:16< Nephro> The usual approach for me in these cases is - do everything you can, this way you can't blame yourself if you don't succeed
20120404 18:43:57< e7th04sh> i mean, the sentence is correct :P
20120404 18:44:54< Nephro> oh :)
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20120404 18:50:03< HappyKsuh> would it be ok if I'll implement some small part of my project instead of fixing bugs?
20120404 18:51:19< Nephro> HappyKsuh, the idea behind submitting patches is to prove that you are capable to code and to gain commit access.
20120404 18:51:43< Nephro> HappyKsuh, if you can implement something that is worth committing, it should be fine
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20120404 19:00:43< e7th04sh> so anyways, you have 23 proposals. last year you had 4 coders. so does this mean roughly 1 person of 6 will be ccepted to the project?
20120404 19:02:45< Nephro> I think wesnoth doesn't really know how many slots will be given
20120404 19:03:00< Nephro> google seems to have the last word there
20120404 19:04:12< e7th04sh> of course. do you perhaps remember how many proposals were submitted last year
20120404 19:04:13< e7th04sh> ?
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20120404 19:06:37< Nephro> I think the amount was roughly the same
20120404 19:07:10< Nephro> note that some proposals just contain answers to the questionnaire, with no descriptions or whatsoever, some are not submitted to google
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20120404 19:09:15< e7th04sh> Well, hopefully if i manage to write a patch or a couple, that would work. The problem is i have very little time to write a description of a project. Hopefully when crab comes I can bug him, as ai seems interesting.
20120404 19:10:04< Nephro> e7th04sh, if you have any AI related question feel free to ask me
20120404 19:10:08< Nephro> I will try to help
20120404 19:10:12< e7th04sh> oh ok
20120404 19:11:31< Nephro> e7th04sh, it is preferred we talk here, since other GSoC students in the same area will benefit from the answers
20120404 19:11:46< e7th04sh> ok, i was concenred with flooding
20120404 19:11:47< e7th04sh> generally I would probably like to work in that area. Is there any documentation that summarises how ai currently works and is implemented in Wesnoth?
20120404 19:12:06< Nephro> (1) http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#how_AI_works.2C_a_short_developer-oriented_overview
20120404 19:12:52< Nephro> (2) http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AI_Module
20120404 19:13:08< Nephro> (3) http://wiki.wesnoth.org/General_RCA_AI_Howto
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20120404 19:20:37< HappyKsuh> Nephro, don't you know, what sequence of actions should I do: firtly to discuss an implementation and after getting an approval to code it, or firstly to code and to submit patch, that may be later appears as completely ambigious?
20120404 19:21:14< HappyKsuh> Nephro, is it actually normal to redo the patch if smth goes wrong?
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20120404 19:21:57< Nephro> HappyKsuh, well, you can go both ways... Last year I discussed the idea a bit, then implemented my version which never got committed, but was my only patch to wesnoth before the application deadline
20120404 19:23:23< Nephro> HappyKsuh, it was never submitted because it didn't fit into the design, but was valid and working c++ code. 
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20120404 19:26:04< Kripsi> Nephro, I'm definitely not giving up, that's for sure. Just need to get started really. :P
20120404 19:26:27< Nephro> Kripsi, you should hurry up, the deadline is very close
20120404 19:26:39 * Nephro afk ~30 minutes
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20120404 19:29:03< Kripsi> Yeah I know, looking for something to do patches wise atm still. Got distracted by lunch. my application is all in - just need to write some patches.
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20120404 19:34:54< e7th04sh> so anyone knows if the long dead dev c++ with mingw/gcc 3.4.2 work for me?
20120404 19:35:26< e7th04sh> cause i can now begin setting up environment for working, but I don't know about msvc - how to obtain legal version... express perhaps?
20120404 19:43:57< mattsc> Nephro, could some of the small feature requests I sent to you be done by relatively simply patches?  (I am asking because I don't know well enough how this would be done in the source code)
20120404 19:45:48< mattsc> I sent them to you and Crab, but that because the two of you asked for them.  I'd be happy to give them to other people as well -- and don't worry about running out of material for the actual GSoc project, I have plenty more (and more complicated) ideas
20120404 19:47:50< mattsc> This would fall into the category you describe - doing a patch that might or might not be accepted later, because it might not fit in with the design philosophy (or whatever).
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20120404 19:55:10< anonymissimus> e7th04sh|afk: you can try codeblocks; its basically the same as dev c++
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20120404 19:55:53< anonymissimus> e7th04sh|afk: however, it is poor for editing and especially debugging
20120404 19:56:10< anonymissimus> but great as a secondary compiler
20120404 19:57:07< Nephro> mattsc, I doubt that I can run out of GSoC material, I'm more worried about how will I fit it in one summer(if I get accepted of course)
20120404 19:57:28< Nephro> mattsc, of course, feel free to post them
20120404 19:58:30< mattsc> Nephro, where's the best place to do that?   
20120404 19:59:46< Nephro> mattsc, I think we can make a little section in the end of your LuaAI_howto page, post requests there and then edit the GSoC ideas page, so that links to that section
20120404 20:00:11< Ivanovic> hi
20120404 20:00:11< Nephro> because right now, people are searching for stuff to do in the EasyCoding section, which to me seems pretty outdated
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20120404 20:00:16< Nephro> hi Ivanovic 
20120404 20:01:48< Nephro> Ivanovic, someone asked today, whether it is allowed to post multiple application for GSoC. Do you know the answer or maybe someone who knows?
20120404 20:01:59< Nephro> applications*
20120404 20:02:17< Ivanovic> Nephro: that is totally allowed
20120404 20:02:51< Ivanovic> though people should really limit the number of applications they send since experience shows that it is impossible to do more than two or three proposals that got a chance to be accepted
20120404 20:02:58< Ivanovic> (proposals for one GSoC that is)
20120404 20:03:10< Ivanovic> and even for two good proposals you need lots of time
20120404 20:03:41< Nephro> Ivanovic, I think the person meant submitting two proposals to wesnoth. Not two proposals to different projects
20120404 20:03:53< Ivanovic> Nephro: this is a general rule
20120404 20:04:00< Nephro> Ok
20120404 20:04:05< Ivanovic> it does not only apply to proposals to several orgs but also to just one org
20120404 20:04:21< Ivanovic> in general it makes more sense to really concentrate on one proposal
20120404 20:04:33< Ivanovic> and make that one outstanding
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20120404 20:08:10< CIA-69> ivanovic * r53773 /branches/1.10/po/ (wesnoth/zh_CN.po wesnoth-lib/zh_CN.po wesnoth-nr/zh_CN.po): updated Chinese (Simplified) translation
20120404 20:08:16< CIA-69> ivanovic * r53774 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth/zh_CN.po wesnoth-lib/zh_CN.po wesnoth-nr/zh_CN.po): updated Chinese (Simplified) translation
20120404 20:10:19 * Nephro reboot
20120404 20:11:10< e7th04sh|afk> anonymissimus: well, i probably wouldn't be able to set it up without guide. i am trying to set up msvc express first, then dev c++ if the former fails
20120404 20:11:47< e7th04sh|afk> up till now i was working solo and i used gcc and make with manually written makefiles
20120404 20:11:54< e7th04sh|afk> so all these libraries and stuff are quite overwhelming
20120404 20:12:21< mattsc> Nephro: are you working on get_attacks()?  Should I include that in the list or is it "taken"?
20120404 20:12:29< e7th04sh|afk> i only worked with stl, sdl and ncurses in my own projects, and other easy to use libraries
20120404 20:12:43< e7th04sh|afk> ok, be back later bye
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20120404 20:14:01< Kripsi> I'm trying to setup compiling wesnoth on windows atm. not even able to download it though because my internet is refusing to work =/
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20120404 20:24:22< mattsc> Nephro, all: I put some ideas out here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Practical_Guide_to_Modifying_AI_Behavior#Ideas_for_Potentially_Easy_AI_Patches
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20120404 20:25:21< mattsc> To the developers among you: if I have violated any rules with this, just hit me over the head and I'll remove them again.  :)
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20120404 20:30:26< mattsc> I also added a link to the EasyCoding page on the wiki.
20120404 20:31:02< mattsc> I mean: I added a link to the above page on the EasyCoding page
20120404 20:32:39< anonymissimus> how could you have vialoted rules ?
20120404 20:34:12< mattsc> by posting unapproved feature requests?  Since I have no idea what the rules are, or if there are any for this kind of thing ...
20120404 20:35:17< mattsc> I could put in official feature requests at Gna!, but don't have time for that right now.  I figured I should get this out quickly, since the deadline is so close.
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20120404 20:58:54< mordante> servus
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20120404 21:05:44< mordante> wesbot seen IvanSan
20120404 21:05:45< wesbot> mordante: Sorry, I don't know of IvanSan.
20120404 21:05:48< mordante> wesbot seen IvanSav
20120404 21:05:48< wesbot> mordante: The person with the nick IvanSav last spoke 7d 22h ago.  4d 2h ago they left with the message: Remote host closed the connection
20120404 21:09:17< Nephro> mattsc, I meant you can post the link to the SoC2012 ideas page
20120404 21:09:27-!- dream_lane [~benjamin@99-93-250-85.lightspeed.chtnsc.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120404 21:09:29< Nephro> so that students who come to it, see the idea list straight away
20120404 21:10:29< dream_lane> How many slots for GSoC did Wesnoth get allotted this year?
20120404 21:10:58< mordante> 0 google hasn't starting to handing them out yet
20120404 21:11:21< mattsc> Nephro, there's a comment on that page that it is auto-generated and should not be edited, so I didn't.
20120404 21:11:59< Nephro> mattsc, I think some parts of it aren't autogenerated
20120404 21:12:06< dream_lane> Oh, wierd... for some reason I thought that was done ahead of time. I've been contributing to GIMP for awhile and was under the impression they were given 5 slots this year, but maybe that's their target or something
20120404 21:12:08< mattsc> Looking at it again, I guess that's only for the list of ideas?  So I could add a link in at the top
20120404 21:12:17< Nephro> mattsc, yes
20120404 21:12:19< mattsc> Nephro: yes
20120404 21:12:34< mattsc> :)   (I'll do that right away)
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20120404 21:14:42< mordante> dream_lane, they might aim for 5 slots, however I see no slots allocated for wesnoth in my mentor dashboard
20120404 21:15:37< mattsc> ok.  done.
20120404 21:15:45< dream_lane> mordante: thanks for the response
20120404 21:15:53< mordante> you're welcome
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20120404 21:16:21< vultraz_laptop> hehe
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20120404 21:16:34< dream_lane> I'm looking to make a project proposal here. The competition looks pretty intense... which is not such a bad thing :)
20120404 21:19:50< Crab_> dream_lane: hello :) yes :)
20120404 21:22:07< mordante> anonymissimus, what should I know and agree with?
20120404 21:23:23< anonymissimus> mordante: that the visual studio debugger has its advantages (I don't recall you exact words)
20120404 21:23:59< Nephro> Crab_, I've almost completed my wiki page. Lacks a timeline, but that will be up today. The main part seems to be done, I might add some techy specifics and some tasks proposed by mattsc. You mind taking a look and discuss the ideas described there?
20120404 21:24:15< mordante> anonymissimus, oh yes it has a nice debugger
20120404 21:24:19< Nephro> hi, btw :)
20120404 21:24:26< mordante> hi Nephro 
20120404 21:24:33< Nephro> hi mordante 
20120404 21:24:59 * mordante would advice e7th04sh to use virtualbox and then install Debian, I use that at work, works nice and easy :-)
20120404 21:25:36< anonymissimus> and debian is the outer or inner system ?
20120404 21:25:55< mordante> also I would also advice CB over dev-c++, I think gcc-3.4.2 won't be able to compile Wesnoth
20120404 21:26:06< mordante> inner, at work we use Windows by default
20120404 21:26:22< mordante> however I need to develop an application that runs on both Windows and Linux
20120404 21:27:05< Crab_> Nephro: yes, in a few minutes
20120404 21:27:20< anonymissimus> oha; so some of your collegues use MSVC mordante ?
20120404 21:27:50< anonymissimus> or a MinGw dev environment (how would that look like ?)
20120404 21:28:05< Nephro> Crab_, I will also, probably, need your advice with the timetable, especially on the distribution of time between the tasks.
20120404 21:28:27< mordante> some MSVC, some dev-c++ however he recently switched to CB
20120404 21:28:53< mordante> the rest of the developers use special IDE's focussing at embedded development
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20120404 21:29:39< anonymissimus> wow, it is used professionally
20120404 21:29:52< mordante> which one?
20120404 21:29:59< anonymissimus> well, code blocks
20120404 21:30:22< anonymissimus> and even dev C++, even though IIRC its no longer maintained since several years
20120404 21:30:23< mordante> yeah why not, my first impression of it isn't bad
20120404 21:30:40< mordante> we also use MSVC 6.0 ;-)
20120404 21:30:59< boucman> hey all
20120404 21:31:03< anonymissimus> mordante: well, I had *severe* problems with codeblocks 10.something on ubuntu
20120404 21:31:04< mordante> hi boucman 
20120404 21:31:36< anonymissimus> then switched back to 8.something which misses some imiportant features but works better
20120404 21:31:42< mordante> I personally prefer vim + (c)make + gdb so never tried CB under Linux
20120404 21:34:53< dream_lane> So, is CB the recommended environment for Wesnoth development on Ubuntu then?
20120404 21:35:18< anonymissimus> dream_lane: don't think so
20120404 21:35:37< anonymissimus> I would prefer eclipse CDT atm I think
20120404 21:35:53< anonymissimus> at least fendrin and gabba are using that
20120404 21:35:59< dream_lane> ahh ok, interesting
20120404 21:36:47< anonymissimus> dream_lane: but you can try; IIRC in 10. the gdb intergation didn't work at all for me
20120404 21:37:20< dream_lane> hmmm
20120404 21:37:46< anonymissimus> and in 8. its still very slow , especially compared with just launching gdb+wesnoth from the command line
20120404 21:37:48< dream_lane> I'm actually more used to eclipse anyways, but for Java and PHP projects. Never used CDT before
20120404 21:38:31< dream_lane> Most of the C C++ stuff i've done has been small enough that I just use gedit and gcc for em
20120404 21:38:52< anonymissimus> also, CodeBlocks and gdb integration still appears pretty buggy, much more than MSVC
20120404 21:39:43< anonymissimus> independently from which OS I consider
20120404 21:40:50< dream_lane> Hmmm
20120404 21:41:12< anonymissimus> dream_lane: kdevelop is said to be good as well (but I couldn't get it to work for some reason)
20120404 21:43:25< mordante> I'm off bye
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20120404 21:43:38< dream_lane> I've got VS2008 on a windows box, but up to this point in my development career I've found that I enjoy deving on ubuntu more than on windows... less distractions (*cough*games*cough) I suppose
20120404 21:46:04< Crab_> dream_lane: enjoy wesnoth, which works on ubuntu :))
20120404 21:47:47< dream_lane> Crab_: I'm planning to tonight :) (as soon as I finish up this feature request on GIMP... ...)
20120404 21:50:42< vultraz_laptop> dream_lane: yeah, it is hard to resist all your windows games ;)
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20120404 21:56:58< anonymissimus> actually; I think there are even more and better games for Linux than windows
20120404 21:57:26< anonymissimus> at least they tend to work better there such as BfW XD
20120404 21:58:05< Crendgrim> well, Windows games often have big companies and a lot of money behind them. Which ... often is an advantage for the quality.
20120404 21:58:25< anonymissimus> Crendgrim: actually I don't think so
20120404 21:58:38< anonymissimus> I generally perfer open source games
20120404 21:58:55< anonymissimus> they're rushed out of the factory
20120404 21:58:58< Crendgrim> anonymissimus: well, but you cannot say that most commercial games are "bad"
20120404 21:59:34< anonymissimus> well, I have very little experience with commercial ones, but the ones I know have quite soem bugs
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20120404 22:10:46< Nephro> dream_lane, I use KDevelop and have no problems with it... I actually don't notice it, focus on the code
20120404 22:11:42< anonymissimus> Crab_: btw do we (or I) get any vote which students to take ?
20120404 22:12:41< anonymissimus> or how is that decided
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20120404 22:14:39< hankerspace> Hi :)
20120404 22:14:45< Crab_> anonymissimus: I would say that you're welcome to join #wesnoth-mentor (or mail mentors privately) and give your opinion, but check with noy/Ivanovic, since they're admins.
20120404 22:14:59< Crab_> anonymissimus: note that you don't see all the student proposals because they have some stuff in google's system.
20120404 22:15:18< Crab_> anonymissimus: but, I would welcome your opinion about candidate(s).
20120404 22:16:56< Crab_> anonymissimus: i.e., join #wesnoth-mentor now, if you want to say something that would be seen by most mentors but not by students
20120404 22:19:01< anonymissimus> okay
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20120404 22:28:14< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: yeah, any feedback is welcome!
20120404 22:28:44< Ivanovic> especially since the students are supposed to work with the time, not just with a single assigned mentor
20120404 22:28:52< Ivanovic> so it makes sense to get some "extra input"
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20120404 22:37:30< fendrin> dream_lane: i can help you with wesnoth and eclipse cdt
20120404 22:38:39< fendrin> hello
20120404 22:39:58< HappyKsuh> Guys, am I right, that deadline for submitting bug fixes and for developing proposals is smth like 19-th of April and not the 6-th?
20120404 22:40:06< CIA-69> ivanovic * r53775 /branches/1.10/ (6 files in 6 dirs): updated German translation
20120404 22:40:10< CIA-69> ivanovic * r53776 /trunk/ (7 files in 7 dirs): updated German translation
20120404 22:40:25< HappyKsuh> 6-th is only the deadline for submitting application to google?
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20120404 22:44:00< Crab_> HappyKsuh: yes
20120404 22:44:18< Crab_> we CANNOT accept students which have not submitted their application to google's tracker.
20120404 22:44:35< Crab_> but, we'll see/evaluate the students for a while longer
20120404 22:45:05< HappyKsuh> Crab_ great)
20120404 22:45:08< Crab_> we've publicly stated that stuff done at least till 8th April would be considered by us, but, most likely, we'll try to use the information/patches that we'll get even after this date
20120404 22:45:23< Crab_> the problem is, it's hard for students who study to keep the same level of effort for 4-5 weeks
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20120404 22:50:39< Ayne> Crab_: let me know whenever you're ready to discuss the project... I haven't been able to look into it as much as I hoped to as something else came up, but I did read through some posts on the forum, a few WML files and play a campaign
20120404 22:51:35< Crab_> if you have time now, we can discuss now or in nearest two hours. else, tomorrow.
20120404 22:52:54< Crab_> Ayne: what format do you prefer? I can answer your questions, or I can write an extended description for you.
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20120404 22:53:51< Ayne> Crab_: Now or later today is fine by me, I don't know when I will be home tomorrow
20120404 22:54:16< Crab_> ok, then let's do so now
20120404 22:54:41< Ayne> Crab_: I think an extended description and then I will ask any questions that I have afterwards? ;)
20120404 22:54:47< Crab_> ok
20120404 22:56:40< Crab_> Ayne: as of now, we can consider wesnoth to have four main 'modes'
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20120404 22:56:54< fendrin> modes
20120404 22:56:58 * fendrin is listening
20120404 22:56:59< Crab_> (1) game is not played (i.e., in main menu, or in mp lobby)
20120404 22:57:07< Crab_> (2) a single-player game
20120404 22:57:11< fendrin> Mostly I am in (1)
20120404 22:57:11< Crab_> (3) a multi-player game
20120404 22:57:18< Crab_> (4) replay
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20120404 22:58:04< Crab_> single-player is handled by playsingle_controller class
20120404 22:58:22< Crab_> multi-player is handled by playmp_controller class
20120404 22:59:10< Crab_> replay is handled by replay_controller class
20120404 22:59:15< Crab_> and they are very messy
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20120404 23:00:40< Crab_> however, we (mostly) don't care, as of now, since we can't get rid of all the mess at once
20120404 23:02:47< Crab_> to start the game/replay, we need to assemble some data structures like level config, state of game, some options, and pass them to the correct controller
20120404 23:03:24< Crab_> after game ends, we get some data structures back out of controller (including some information related to how the game was ended)
20120404 23:05:11< anonymissimus> Crab_: is that project meant as the continuation of zaroth's from last year ?
20120404 23:05:19< Crab_> anonymissimus: yes and no.
20120404 23:05:36< Crab_> anonymissimus: last year we wanted to achieve similar goals by messing with the play_controllers
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20120404 23:05:48< Crab_> anonymissimus: now, I see that they are too messy and they more-or-less work.
20120404 23:06:11< Crab_> anonymissimus: so, it's possible to change the code which calls the play controllers, treating them (mostly) as black boxes.
20120404 23:08:59< Crab_> so, the job of playcampaign.cpp is to 'connect the dots' - prepare the correct input data, run the relevant play controller, get its result, repeat while necessary
20120404 23:10:16< anonymissimus> hm what is supposed to happen with the game_controller_new stuff zaroth added ?
20120404 23:11:12 * anonymissimus recalls he forgot to activate the --new-syntax switch
20120404 23:11:32< Crab_> anonymissimus: it's slightly different layer, it's still useful but most of the work would be done in playcampaign.cpp
20120404 23:15:58< Crab_> Ayne: so far, is it clear?
20120404 23:16:29< Ayne> yep
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20120404 23:18:16< Crab_> ok, great
20120404 23:18:21< Ayne> so my job would be to clean up the handling of the input and output data
20120404 23:18:46< Crab_> Ayne: yes. we want a good way of configuring the process of determining the type and properties of the next scenario
20120404 23:20:02< Crab_> that means that all the stuff which is related to 'current game' should be moved to play controllers , to live inside them
20120404 23:20:26< Crab_> and all the stuff which is related to outside-of-scenario metadata should be kept separate
20120404 23:20:58< Crab_> optimally, we should allow custom user lua code to be run between scenarios, if necessary
20120404 23:21:31< Ayne> i'm guessing that would be one of the "fun thing" to be added once things work?
20120404 23:21:34< Crab_> yes
20120404 23:22:21< Crab_> extra attention must be given to handling of scenario config
20120404 23:22:40< Crab_> currently, scenario configs start in 'unparsed' state, which contain macro and preprocessor definitions
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20120404 23:23:40< Crab_> if we want to allow to change difficulty on the fly, we would need to maintain a good way to reload the scenario config and all related elements
20120404 23:24:42< Crab_> this is tricky but achievable without big changes to codebase (I had coded some example code in February during a dinner at a restaurant, and it worked)
20120404 23:27:55< Ayne> by good way to reload do you mean something like a parser or a loading parsed data?
20120404 23:28:19< Crab_> by good way of reloading I mean a way of reloading that would be as foolproof as possible
20120404 23:28:50< Crab_> i.e. , a function that we would call to say 'hey, we want this to be loaded now, don't do anything if it is already loaded, else, reload it and ping all interested parties to let them know they should update themselves'
20120404 23:29:10< Crab_> as we want to have 0 bugs related to that reloading
20120404 23:29:19< Ayne> ok
20120404 23:29:29< Crab_> after loading, we get a parsed config
20120404 23:29:48< Crab_> then, as of now, we find the correct scenario by id, do some other stuff, and produce a proper level config
20120404 23:29:55< Nephro> mattsc, I can't see your posted list anywhere
20120404 23:30:16< anonymissimus> Crab_: "optimally, we should allow custom user lua code to be run between scenarios, if necessary": I wonder what that could be and how it would look like
20120404 23:31:30< anonymissimus> and what usecase it could have
20120404 23:32:05< mattsc> Nephro, check out the very bottom of this http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Practical_Guide_to_Modifying_AI_Behavior
20120404 23:32:21< Crab_> anonymissimus: I want an easy way for WML authors to mess with side assignments/recalls
20120404 23:32:22< mattsc> I'll be afk for the next ~1h
20120404 23:32:38< Crab_> anonymissimus: also, I want an easy way to display some custom dialogs related to 'what to do next?'
20120404 23:33:13< Crab_> anonymissimus: i.e., I think that 'assign players to sides' can be done midcampaign, if required (i.e., if number of players changes, and we want to wait for a while for other player to join, or reassign control)
20120404 23:33:17< Crab_> fendrin: ^
20120404 23:34:00< dream_lane> fendrin: I was afk. Thanks for letting me know you can help with eclipse CDT. I'll keep that in mind
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20120404 23:34:32< anonymissimus> the lua kernel is currently constructed/destructed from the playcontroller constrcutor/destructor IIRC
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20120404 23:36:03< Crab_> anonymissimus: we might reuse one of playcontrollers, as we want something like a story-only map
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20120404 23:36:43< Crab_> anonymissimus: I think that the slight delay between scenarios won't bother anyone too much
20120404 23:37:16< anonymissimus> well no, must be much later even
20120404 23:37:17< Crab_> anonymissimus: especially, since if there're choices to do, they'll take much longer anyway. and if there'll be no choices to do, it'll not require any mouseclicks
20120404 23:38:21< Crab_> note that, if we do it properly, the logic for determining gold carryover and for determining next scenario would be pushed over to lua
20120404 23:38:45< Crab_> so, they'll be in one place and there'll be any easy way to control them or override them
20120404 23:39:09< Crab_> to allow WML authors a better way to 'talk' with our system, I propose modification of [end_level] tag 
20120404 23:39:31< Crab_> since it's the most natural place to place 'instructions regarding next scenario'
20120404 23:39:47< Crab_> (and a sensible default would keep the current behavior)
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20120404 23:45:30< dream_lane> Crab_: It sounds like this would allow for easier creation of interesting campaigns
20120404 23:45:54< Crab_> dream_lane: yes, and with less workarounds.
20120404 23:46:23< Crab_> Ayne: so, the job is firstly about cleaning up and putting stuff where it belongs to clearly separate 'in-game stuff' and 'out-of-game stuff'
20120404 23:46:40< Crab_> this would allow to fix a couple of bugs, as well
20120404 23:46:52< Crab_> for example, we have a special type of save called 'start-of-scenario save'.
20120404 23:47:12< Crab_> this save is 'before we run play controller'
20120404 23:47:27< Crab_> while, for example, 1st turn save is 'after we run play controller and save from within it'
20120404 23:47:57< Crab_> and, as you've seen from that forum post about MP campaigns, start-of-scenario-saves are sometimes broken
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20120404 23:48:15< Crab_> because, loading them uses a separate code path from the code path originally taken when starting the game for the first time
20120404 23:48:49< Crab_> also, start-of-scenario information found in scenario is sometimes broken, because in-scenario information overwrites some of out-of-scenario information
20120404 23:48:49< dream_lane> interesting
20120404 23:48:57< Crab_> dream_lane: a proper mess :)))
20120404 23:49:12< dream_lane> I'm familiar with messes :)
20120404 23:49:35< dream_lane> That's what first iterations are for right? ;)
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20120404 23:51:40< Crab_> dream_lane: that's a different kind of mess :)
20120404 23:51:58< Crab_> dream_lane: old messes are much more fun. backward compatability matters. people still want to load their old saves :)
20120404 23:52:27< dream_lane> Crab_: Ahhhhh.... I see now...
20120404 23:53:00< Crab_> dream_lane: for example, in AI recruitment project, it'd be a new mess at first, because it's a rewrite there.
20120404 23:53:13< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53777 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/maps/ (01_The_Morning_After.map 02_Across_the_Harsh_Sands.map): Use desert palms for forest in first two UtBS scenarios
20120404 23:53:15< Crab_> dream_lane: but, here (if this project is accepted), it'd be an old  mess
20120404 23:53:20< dream_lane> Crab_: so maybe a little of the strategy design pattern could be useful... Although that could make the code harder to read if not done wlel
20120404 23:53:45< Crab_> dream_lane: the most important thing here is to cleanly separate responsiblities.
20120404 23:54:00< Crab_> dream_lane: after this is done, any approach or any suitable design pattern would work
20120404 23:54:10< Crab_> but you need to clean up some space to use a proper approach
20120404 23:54:22< dream_lane> I hear ya
20120404 23:55:10< Crab_> i.e., take a look at game_state structure - it contains both stuff useful outside-of-scenario, and stuff used inside of scenario (like variables), and stuff used in both places
20120404 23:55:14< Crab_> it's in src/gamestatus.cpp
20120404 23:56:04< Crab_> and, if it's properly separated into 'outside of scenario' and 'inside scenario' parts, then it'd be possible to consider play_controller+inside_scenario state as a proper black box
20120404 23:56:20< Crab_> and a properly isolated black box is something that can be moved around without much risk of breakage
20120404 23:57:17< dream_lane> I'll take a look at that...
20120404 23:57:40< dream_lane> cohesion and decoupling never hurts :)
20120404 23:58:00< Crab_> dream_lane: you're welcome to take a look at that )
20120404 23:58:10< Crab_> Ayne: any questions, so far?
20120404 23:58:56< Crab_> Ayne: as you see, the scope of the project is quite big (and it will get a lot bigger :) ), but it's important to 'fix the mess and introduce a simplest thing that would work and allow us to extend it later' - that's the mandatory part of the project.
20120404 23:59:11< Crab_> Ayne: so, a lot of extras that are possible to do are optional, but fun
--- Log closed Thu Apr 05 00:00:39 2012