--- Log opened Thu Apr 12 00:00:48 2012
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20120412 00:02:49< Nephro> Crab_, I've started rewriting the functions in core.cpp and encountered quite a bunch of inconsistencies. (1) we can only get the readonly_contex or ai_context from the engine; (2) the attack action implementation receives aggression as an argument. We can pass any aggression via our Lua function in the current implementation. But the execute_attack in the context class doesn't get aggression as an argument, instead, it either passes the value th
20120412 00:02:49< Nephro> e get_aggression returns, or get_leader_agression
20120412 00:03:09< Nephro>  it either passes the value the get_aggression returns, or get_leader_agression
20120412 00:04:15< Nephro> (1) might be left unaddressed, since ai_context provides us with the needed functionality, but (2) needs to be addressed if we want to allow people to pass aggression as a parameter
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20120412 00:04:40< Crab_> Nephro: for (2) we can drop it for now, as it is in C++
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20120412 00:05:08< Crab_> Nephro: please explain more about (1)
20120412 00:05:56< Crab_> Nephro: note, that in C++, aspects are supposed to only have only readonly aspect available, as they can't do actions or influence the other parts of the AI directly. they're supposed to be parameters.
20120412 00:06:19< Crab_> while ai_context is for code in context of a fully initialized ai engine
20120412 00:06:26< Crab_> i.e. stages and CAs
20120412 00:06:49< Nephro> Crab_, well, the the ai_engine has only two methods get_ai_context and get_readonly_context
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20120412 00:07:11< Crab_> Nephro: and what't the problem with that?
20120412 00:07:41< Nephro> Crab_, I need to access the functionality of readwrite context to execute actions
20120412 00:07:51< Crab_> Nephro: get_ai_context() ?
20120412 00:09:00< Nephro> Crab_, yes, I can do that, I actually did it this way, but then I thought, why isn't readwrite context exposed, if ai_context is
20120412 00:09:45< Nephro> even though ai_context provides much more access than readwrite
20120412 00:10:07< Crab_> Nephro: it's just that the code is over engineered for current needs. distinction only between two contexts is actually useful, readonly_context vs ai_context.
20120412 00:10:45< Nephro> Crab_, I see. Then I leave it using the ai_context, that's settled
20120412 00:10:49< Crab_> there's even a context for rca_stage, which can be useful if we'll want CAs to interact with 'their' rca loop in funny ways, directly.
20120412 00:10:59< Crab_> ok
20120412 00:12:05< Nephro> Crab_, about (2) I suggest adding an overload to execute_attack_action inside readwrite context, that will receive aggression as a parameter
20120412 00:12:27< Crab_> Nephro: I'd just drop it for now.
20120412 00:12:48< Crab_> Nephro: reason: area of code which deals with attack evaluation is not yet refactored properly.
20120412 00:13:15< Crab_> Nephro: so, after that refactoring is done, attack evaluation (and so, weapon selection), might be influenced by more than 1 parameter.
20120412 00:13:32< Crab_> Nephro: unless you find a good way to support multiple parameters now, which would be backward compatibile
20120412 00:13:50< Crab_> then, you can implement it for aggression, and the rest can be added later, when it'll be actually done
20120412 00:14:20< Nephro> Crab_, weapon, on the contrary to aggression, is passed as a parameter to the method
20120412 00:14:53< Crab_> if weapon is -1, then it means 'please select'
20120412 00:15:06< Crab_> if weapon is not -1, aggression is not useful at all.
20120412 00:15:15< Crab_> since there's nothing to select at that point.
20120412 00:15:40< Nephro> Crab_, ok, then I leave it as it is now(ai::actions::execute_* straight from core.cpp)?
20120412 00:15:49< Crab_> yes
20120412 00:16:00< Crab_> but I'd say,  don't support passing aggression as parameter
20120412 00:16:10< Crab_> also note the comment at void attack_result::do_execute() in src/ai/actions.cpp
20120412 00:16:17< Crab_>  //@note: yes, this is a decision done here. It's that way because we want to allow a simpler attack 'with whatever weapon is considered best', and because we want to allow the defender to pick it's weapon. That's why aggression is needed. a cleaner solution is needed.
20120412 00:17:01< Crab_> also note that the AI actually influences the choice of defender's weapon )
20120412 00:17:10< Crab_> (when AI is attacking)
20120412 00:19:02< Nephro> Crab_, well, that answers the question "why would we pass aggression to the attack execution method"
20120412 00:19:17< Crab_> yes
20120412 00:20:14< Crab_> the problem is figuring out how to do that in a way that would later expand if we'd want the weapon selection to be governed, say, by user's scripts or by some 3-4 primary metrics
20120412 00:20:18< Nephro> Crab_, also, when you say "don't support passing aggression as parameter", you want me to stop allowing people to pass it, or just don't implement things like that in the future?
20120412 00:22:37< Crab_> Nephro: *checking documentation to see what we've told the users*
20120412 00:23:30< mattsc> Crab_: the wiki contains the aggression as an option to be passed
20120412 00:23:42< Crab_> mattsc: can you point to a link?
20120412 00:23:45< mattsc> And I have used it, it works and makes a difference
20120412 00:23:56< mattsc> hold on ...
20120412 00:24:18< mattsc> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#Lua_AI_syntax
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20120412 00:25:15< Crab_> mattsc: thanks. so, what would be the best way to solve the 'what if we'll have 2+ parameters governing attack selection?' issue?
20120412 00:25:45< mattsc> pass them in a Lua table, e.g.:
20120412 00:25:45< Nephro> Crab_, a config?
20120412 00:25:56< Crab_> mattsc: how to make it backward-compatible with current way?
20120412 00:26:30< mattsc> Crab_, og, backwards compatibility ... umm.
20120412 00:26:36< mattsc> s/og/oh
20120412 00:26:45< Crab_> mattsc: one way I'm thinking of is ai.attack(ATTACKER_X,ATTACKER_Y,DEFENDER_X,DEFENDER_Y,-1,AGGRESSION, OTHER_FUNNY_OPTIONS_IN_A_TABLE)  
20120412 00:27:07< mattsc> Crab_, yeah, that would work.
20120412 00:27:10< Crab_> or ai.attack(ATTACKER_X,ATTACKER_Y,DEFENDER_X,DEFENDER_Y,-1,JUST_AGGRESSION_OR_IF_IT_IS_A_LUA_TABLE_THEN_IT_IS_FUNNY_OPTIONS) 
20120412 00:27:16< Nephro> Crab_, we can simulate overloading of lua functions.
20120412 00:27:23< Nephro> Crab_, I can check in core.cpp what is passed
20120412 00:27:30< Crab_> Nephro: yes, the second example is overloading
20120412 00:27:38< Crab_> Nephro: by just checking if it's table or not
20120412 00:27:43< Nephro> yes
20120412 00:27:45< mattsc> Crab_: yes, the second image would work.
20120412 00:28:01< mattsc> second *example, sorr ...
20120412 00:28:13< Crab_> Nephro: ok, then it's ok, leave aggression  as it is, but leave a note/todo somewhere in the lua attack action about the way we'd modify it in the future if we'll require more parameters to be passed in.
20120412 00:28:16< mattsc> sorry...  (I need to slow down!)
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20120412 00:28:43< mattsc> Crab_: on the other hand, I'd bet that there are exactly zero examples out there that currently use aggression.
20120412 00:28:56< Crab_> mattsc: yes, but we can keep things simple for now
20120412 00:29:14< Crab_> mattsc: since overloading would work, and we'll not likely to refactor this stuff unless someone decides to do it.
20120412 00:29:29< mattsc> Crab_: sure.  Just saying that backwards compatibility is not that big a concern here (if, in other cases, it were not simple)
20120412 00:29:48 * Nephro is glad that he brought up this issue now
20120412 00:30:00< mattsc> (I don't know how strict a rule that is in Wesnoth though)
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20120412 00:31:14< Crab_> Nephro: and, about "don't support passing aggression as parameter", that was just an idea of how to solve this stuff. but, since I've heard that mattsc uses it and it makes a difference, it makes sense to leave it be.
20120412 00:31:49< mattsc> Crab_: I've used it to figure out what the parameter does in debug mode.  I am not actually using it in any of my examples
20120412 00:31:54< Crab_> Nephro: but, as a side note, if you make a function and it is accessible via some time, chances are that some clever guys will find it by enumerating that table, figure out what it does, and would document it :))
20120412 00:32:22< Crab_> Nephro: and you'll be forced to either live with it or give some trouble by breaking stuff :)
20120412 00:32:50< Crab_> mattsc: well, I was more concerted about 'it makes a difference' part - if it makes a difference, I'd make it stay since it increases your capabilities
20120412 00:33:34< mattsc> The main difference it makes is: if aggression is low and an attacker is close to death, he'll choose the weapon which let's him survive.
20120412 00:33:46< mattsc> If aggression=1, he'll choose the one which will do most damage.
20120412 00:34:14< mattsc> IIRc, this was all half a year ago or so, that I tested that
20120412 00:34:26< Crab_> there's another strategic-level difference
20120412 00:34:46< Crab_> 1) ai sucks at aggression set < 0.3 or something like that
20120412 00:35:33< Crab_> 2) the inherit 'gold advantage' that the AI should have over human for 'fair play', depends on aggression and map. the lower the aggression, the lower the required gold advantage.
20120412 00:36:03< mattsc> Crab: oh, yes, I was solely talking about ai.attack here.  Not about the overall AI behavior.  It makes a huge difference for the latter.
20120412 00:36:43< mattsc> A month ago or so I pulled all the cases where aggression is considered out of the source code and documented them on AiWML
20120412 00:37:07< Crab_> i.e. with aggression of 0.5, Ai would be ok (roughly) with taking 200gp of damage to kill 100gp of units, with aggression of 0.75, AI would be ok (roughly) with taking 400gp of damage to kill 100 gp of units. if map permits, human can survive pretty well by baiting the AI to attack along the edge
20120412 00:37:14< Crab_> ... of some defensive positions
20120412 00:38:22< Crab_> so, that is the intended purpose of 'defensive AI' gsoc project, if it'd be accepted - try to find ways to lower the default aggression.
20120412 00:39:01< mattsc> Ok.  If that gets accepted, I'll be following that with great interest.
20120412 00:39:19< Crab_> we'll see on 23rd April.
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20120412 00:47:32< Nephro> I think a proper recruiting algorithm, a stage that would modify aggression basing on the current situation on the map and some minor tweaks would do the trick.
20120412 00:48:53< Crab_> mayhap
20120412 00:49:09< Crab_> the most common-seen opinion is that AI needs to understand defensive lines
20120412 00:49:31< Crab_> but I don't want to guide you onto that school of thought :) develop your own ideas, and you're welcome to try them out.
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20120412 00:50:29< Nephro> When I last played 1x1 against the AI, it just spent all it's money and ran towards me. And that's basically it, AI lost. I am still believing that my idea about swapping out CA's would work quite well.
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20120412 00:50:53< Crab_> ok
20120412 00:51:00< Crab_> try it
20120412 00:51:29< Crab_> there's a way to run ai-vs-ai, so, we can test standard AI vs your's
20120412 00:51:44< mattsc> Nephro: the great thing about different people doing it different ways is that you can then set up the different AIs against each other and figure out which parts work and which don't.
20120412 00:52:17< mattsc> * mattsc is slower than Crab
20120412 00:53:49< Nephro> Crab_, the biggest problem is: I am not a very good player. I don't really know, which units counter which... My usual way of beating the AI is simply by standing somewhere beneficial for me, that isn't past the middle of the map
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20120412 00:54:17< Crab_> Nephro: yes, that's you're abusing the AI's relative lack of gold compared to you :)
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20120412 00:55:21< Crab_> Nephro: i.e. it should have roughly 160 gold for your 100 (and higher income) to be more interesting.
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20120412 00:55:57< Nephro> Crab_, not only that. I played a scenario yesterday, one of the mainlines. I had to battle orcs, and there was a river in the middle of the map, and on the coasts were forests.
20120412 00:56:52< Nephro> So I just took position there, and orcs came and fought in water.   
20120412 00:57:24< Nephro> AI could just stand on it's base, since the pressure is on me, my turns are running out.
20120412 00:57:59< Crab_> yes, but it doesn't know how to stand efficiently
20120412 00:58:26< Crab_> so, to avoid 'silly and bad behavior' we adopt 'partially suicidal but at least slightly understandable and more fun' behavior
20120412 00:58:32< Crab_> try ai with aggression of 0
20120412 00:59:09< Crab_> actually, the break-even value is >0, but it depends on how the AI knows how to kill units which can damage it next turn
20120412 01:01:56< Nephro> I actually did a lot of thinking about game design in general, and tried to plan my dream game. I stumbled upon ideas from time to time, which were quite interesting, but a person could have get beaten by a player who isn't moving at all, just waits there to see what you do, and counter it.
20120412 01:02:26< Nephro> I thought a lot about what actually makes the players play the game, instead of saying, "ok, I stand here, and you can't beat me"
20120412 01:03:59< Nephro> Then I came across the concept of pressure. If the game provides abilities to apply pressure to your opponent, and you do nothing, you will lose. In wesnoth, the primary pressure when playing 1v1 for me is villages.
20120412 01:04:41< Nephro> Secondary pressure is the opponents force and it's location.
20120412 01:07:06< Nephro> The current AI "thinks", that the only way to win the game is to fight, and that it will lose if it isn't fighting. Of course it doesn't really think this way, it just has the single set of CA's which are parameterized, but the parameters can't change it's playstyle drastically.
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20120412 01:08:05< Nephro> I think this AI would be stronger by factors, if we teach it to apply pressure, instead of trying to kill everything it sees.
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20120412 01:10:28< Nephro> First of, the beginning. the only 2 ca's are "scouting phase" and "recruit scouts and generalized forces". Here we can apply primary gold pressure by taking villages. Then we swap out the recruitment phase, to a different one, which will get us forces that are strong "on this map", "against this  race" etc
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20120412 01:11:34< Nephro> At some certain pressure, the current CA set will work quite well
20120412 01:13:56< Nephro> At other, the AI should say "okay, mister, if you're so aggressive, then I swap out my 'movement' phases to different ones and we'll see how you break through"
20120412 01:14:02< mattsc> Nephro: sounds interesting.  I think you also need to teach it how to take positions in formation somehow though.
20120412 01:14:17< Nephro> And if the defense is held properly, the opponent attacking will always lose
20120412 01:14:36< Nephro> Considering that you are own the same gold amount
20120412 01:15:14< Crab_> Nephro: what if you need to attack on one flank, but try to defend and wait on the other?
20120412 01:15:27< Nephro> Crab_, good point
20120412 01:15:32< Nephro> :[
20120412 01:15:57< Nephro> Crab_, then split the units, have two rca loops for each side
20120412 01:16:21< Crab_> well, suddenly it becomes much more complicated :))
20120412 01:16:31< Nephro> or not two loops, but two sets of CA's, each set plays it's own units
20120412 01:17:17< Nephro> Crab_, well, as I see it, the most complicated part is the stage, that analyzes the situation and generates the CA's that need to be swapped around
20120412 01:17:50< Nephro> The better we want the AI to play, the more complicated it should get, I think that's only natural
20120412 01:18:16< Nephro> Luckily, the current framework allows us to do this kind of sorcery
20120412 01:18:52< Crab_> yes, but the complexity is quite big. try it, if you want)
20120412 01:19:12< Nephro> I most certainly will
20120412 01:19:29< Nephro> And I don't think that's a big crime, if my AI will take a minute to think
20120412 01:19:42< Nephro> People sit around and think too
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20120412 01:23:23< Nephro> mattsc, about the formations, it's all about complexity. We can do a fast skim of the map, disregarding the current enemy force, and find a beneficial area for us. We can do a more thorough scan, taking into account the average values of enemy unit defenses on this terrain
20120412 01:23:55< mattsc> Nephro: that's exactly the approach I am currently working on.  :)
20120412 01:23:57< Nephro> that's actually an idea a came up last year, and it should've been a part of my project
20120412 01:24:03 * Nephro made himself sad
20120412 01:24:21< Nephro> sorry for the wall of text, got excited
20120412 01:24:51< mattsc> No worries.  I am really looking forward to you (and others) working on this.
20120412 01:29:26< Nephro> btw, about making the AI play 1v1, I couldn't stop my mind to come up with this idea: ranked ai match server. People set their AI's to play other's. 
20120412 01:29:48 * Nephro seriously needs to start implementing something
20120412 01:31:20< mattsc> :)
20120412 01:34:19< mattsc> In the meantime, I have done a first implementation of a 'messenger escort' AI...  Still quite primitive, but it (almost) works how I want it for this stage...
20120412 01:34:57< mattsc> Just another one of those specialized little applications I am doing.  Nothing comparable to what you're suggesting, Nephro.
20120412 01:36:00< Nephro> well, my suggestions are thin air until they are at least prototyped
20120412 01:42:37< mattsc> Well, thanks for the interesting discussion.  I have to head out now.  I'll be back on later tonight, maybe putting the messenger AI out there if I have time to fix one last issue.
20120412 01:43:05< Nephro> bye
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20120412 01:54:24< CIA-69> nephro * r53903 /trunk/src/ai/lua/core.cpp: LuaAI: (1) small indent fix (2) added a TODO that might be useful in the future
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20120412 02:08:16< tyrannodogg> goodnight everyone
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20120412 02:53:43< vultraz> I found a small bug in Liberty scen 6 (The Grey Woods)
20120412 02:54:24< vultraz> two [then]s when one is supposed to be a [else]
20120412 02:54:26< vultraz> http://pastebin.com/QbHAsB1f
20120412 02:54:29< vultraz> patch ^
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20120412 02:55:59< vultraz> situation: http://pastebin.com/JZwB7W20
20120412 02:56:45< shadowm> Patches convey enough information for that. That said, a trivial fix like that doesn't warrant a patch.
20120412 02:58:17 * vultraz shrugs
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20120412 04:16:48< mattsc> Alarantalara, jamit, maybe others: I have put together a first 'Messenger Escort' AI code, based on our discussions of the last few days.
20120412 04:17:04< mattsc> See: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34976&p=526133#p526133
20120412 04:18:01< mattsc> If anybody has time and interest, suggestions for improvements (or generalizations) would be very much appreciated.
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20120412 04:19:38< mattsc> This is build on the same map geometry as 'Out of the Frying Pan' in UtBS, but with different terrain and using core units.  (Whom should I give credit for the map in the [about] section?)
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20120412 04:22:08< shadowm> Most likely quartex, who was the original author and maintainer of UtBS.
20120412 04:22:19< shadowm> Probably unnecessary, anyway.
20120412 04:23:39< mattsc> shadowm, thanks
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20120412 04:27:12< shadowm> vultraz: next time base your path against the checkout root, not the target files' directory
20120412 04:27:15< shadowm> patch
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20120412 04:29:21< neph> mattsc, why wouldn't you actually use revindex(p) for index conversion back to x,y ?
20120412 04:29:33< CIA-69> shadowmaster * r53904 /trunk/data/campaigns/Liberty/scenarios/06_The_Grey_Woods.cfg: 
20120412 04:29:33< CIA-69> L scenario 06: Fix extra if.then block which should be an else block instead
20120412 04:29:33< CIA-69> Pointed out by vultraz on IRC.
20120412 04:29:47< vultraz> :D
20120412 04:30:49< mattsc> neph: because currently it is a function local to location sets only.  It isn't accessible "from the outside"
20120412 04:31:08< shadowm> vultraz: and if you are going to submit anything more complicated in the future, use patches.wesnoth.org
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20120412 04:31:27< shadowm> as I said trivial stuff like this doesn't really warrant patches
20120412 04:31:57< vultraz> k
20120412 04:32:37< mattsc> That's easy to change, but it's in a core file, so somebody else needs to do that (and nobody responded to my question on the forum - that was before I joined IRC for the first time, I haven't asked here yet).
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20120412 04:35:13< neph> mattsc, I'll address it asap
20120412 04:35:22< neph> but not today
20120412 04:35:25< neph> it's 4am again
20120412 04:36:14< mattsc> neph: yeah, I was wondering what you were still doing here.  Thanks.
20120412 04:36:37< neph> :)
20120412 04:36:38< neph> gn
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20120412 04:36:42< mattsc> bye
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20120412 10:09:09< CIA-69> brilliand * r53905 /trunk/ (changelog data/scenario-test.cfg src/unit.cpp): Apply patch 3210: Add [object]duration=turn
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20120412 12:12:17< CIA-69> elvish_hunter * r53906 /trunk/ (changelog data/lua/helper.lua): Lua: added helper.round function
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20120412 16:18:11< Crab_> hello, Akihara. Any new questions so far?
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20120412 16:35:01< mattsc> Hi, neph.
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20120412 16:35:53< mattsc> IIRC, a couple days ago you told me that in ai.attack() weapon and aggression were inadvertently reversed.
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20120412 16:37:00< mattsc> I've done some more tests of this (using 1.10.0) and I do not find this.  As in ai.attack(attacker, defender, 0) uses the first weapon, ai.attack(attacker, defender, 1) the second, just as it should and says on the wiki.
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20120412 17:06:34< neph> mattsc, that's because I fixed it :)
20120412 17:06:46< mattsc> neph, but not in 1.10.0
20120412 17:06:52< neph> huh?
20120412 17:07:03< neph> what is 1.10.0
20120412 17:07:18< mattsc> Wesnoth version 1.10.0, which is what I am currently using.
20120412 17:07:41< neph> when was it released?
20120412 17:07:42< mattsc> And I have tested this several times over ever since 1.9.6 or so and always get the same result
20120412 17:08:03< mattsc> Jan 29
20120412 17:08:20< neph> well, that's weird
20120412 17:08:34< neph> I don't have the code on this pc
20120412 17:08:47< neph> I'll check it out once I get to my other one
20120412 17:09:16< mattsc> Ok, no worries, just letting you know that all my tests have shown that the first argument after the two units selects the weapon.
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20120412 17:09:36< mattsc> Starting with tests I did half a year ago.
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20120412 17:10:56< mattsc> ... and ending with tests I did about 2 hours ago, to add the no-retaliation attack for the Messenger scenario that Alarantalara suggested
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20120412 19:42:56< Nephro> mattsc, incoming patch with changes to function names, added underscores between the src's and dst's, you might need to fix your code a bit.
20120412 19:45:20< mattsc> neph: thanks for the warning
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20120412 19:48:42< CIA-69> nephro * r53907 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): LuaAI: (1) fixed some naming inconsistencies; (2) hidden some methods to the cache table, so that they don't lie around unused in the ai table
20120412 19:49:49-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Wesnoth accepted in GSoC 2012 | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 172 bugs, 329 feature requests, 15 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120412 19:50:04< Nephro> mattsc, it will also require a rebuild
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20120412 19:52:39< mattsc> Nephro: will do
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20120412 20:19:33< mattsc> Nephro: I rebuilt things and can see the new structure/names.  I can still see everything inside ai.cache, but I don't think that's a problem.
20120412 20:20:06< mattsc> The is_..._valid() fucntions are still outside the cache table.  Is that intentional?
20120412 20:20:19< Nephro> well, yes, it is impossible to completely hide something. (well, it is possible, but that would be overengineering imgo)
20120412 20:20:22< Nephro> imh0*
20120412 20:20:53< Nephro> mattsc, no, those I forgot :) I will hide them too, no recompilation will be required
20120412 20:21:56< mattsc> oh, and if we want to get _really_ picky, there's get_enemy_src_dst, but your new functions use src_dst_enemy etc.   ;) 
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20120412 20:23:16< Nephro> argh, right, will redo. Which way do you like better?
20120412 20:24:14< mattsc> Let's keep it the way how the previously existing functions were used: enemy_src_dst
20120412 20:26:17< mattsc> I'll be afk for the next hour or so
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20120412 20:56:21< CIA-69> nephro * r53908 /trunk/ (data/ai/lua/stdlib.lua src/ai/lua/core.cpp): LuaAI: (1) even more naming inconsistencies fixed; (2) even more methods hidden
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20120412 22:09:30< fendrin> Hello
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20120412 22:19:34< Espreon> fendrin: Hello.
20120412 22:21:24-!- mattsc [~mattsc@fw.hia.nrc.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20120412 22:21:59< fendrin> hi Espreon
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--- Log opened Thu Apr 12 22:32:40 2012
20120412 22:32:52-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120412 22:32:52-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: Wesnoth accepted in GSoC 2012 | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 172 bugs, 329 feature requests, 15 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120412 22:32:52-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@wesnoth/bot/wesbot] [Thu Apr 12 19:49:49 2012]
20120412 22:32:52[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20120412 22:32:52[ [Relic]        ] [ eregon     ] [ knotwork_   ] [ shadowm        ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ _vdn           ] [ erl        ] [ koan        ] [ shikadibot     ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ AI0867         ] [ Espreon    ] [ lobby       ] [ Smar           ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ Akihara        ] [ fendrin    ] [ loonybot    ] [ stikonas       ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ anonymissimus  ] [ flyingcomma] [ loonycyborg ] [ thethomaseffect] 
20120412 22:32:52[ apoi           ] [ gabba      ] [ LordNasty   ] [ Tigge          ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ Appleman1234   ] [ Gallaecio  ] [ matthiaskrgr] [ timotei        ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ bloodycoin     ] [ happygrue  ] [ MeccaGod    ] [ trademark__    ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ chpln          ] [ HappyKsuh  ] [ melinath    ] [ Upthorn        ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ ChrisOelmueller] [ Ingeniumed ] [ mjs-de      ] [ vcap           ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ CIA-69         ] [ Ingmar     ] [ nagafono    ] [ vultraz        ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ Crab_          ] [ isaac      ] [ negusnyul   ] [ wesbot         ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ crimson_penguin] [ Ivanovic   ] [ neph        ] [ yann           ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ csarmi         ] [ iwaim      ] [ noy         ] [ zookeeper      ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ Danceman       ] [ jamit      ] [ oldtopman   ] [ {V}            ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ ejls           ] [ janebot    ] [ Rhonda      ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ elias          ] [ Johannes13 ] [ s951        ] 
20120412 22:32:52[ Elvish_Pillager] [ khoover    ] [ Samual      ] 
20120412 22:32:52-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 69 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 69 normal]
20120412 22:32:59-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
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20120412 22:34:33< trademark__> fendrin, hello, I saw on the recruitment algorithm page that we should ask you about the recruit list features. I'm going to sleep but I'll read the log tomorrow. If you have times, I would like to know what is the state of this feature and which files are involved and maybe an example of where it's use. Thank you very much.
20120412 22:35:21< fendrin> trademark__: Do you still have a minute before falling into sleep.
20120412 22:35:23< fendrin> ?
20120412 22:35:53-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth-dev was synced in 189 secs
20120412 22:38:06< fendrin> trademark__: I don't now about a recruitment algorithm page and I have no idea how and why I am named there.
20120412 22:38:45< fendrin> trademark__: If you could give me a link to it it would help to give me an idea what you expect me to talk about.
20120412 22:39:55< Crab_> fendrin: I've told trademark__ that you've implemented the per-leader recruit lists.
20120412 22:40:35< Crab_> fendrin: so, the question is, how do you want the AI to use this, from a scenario developer perspective.
20120412 22:41:30< fendrin> Ah yes.
20120412 22:43:39< neph> Crab_, do you know the overall Lua perfrormance ratio C++?
20120412 22:44:01< neph> *to C++
20120412 22:47:44< Crab_> neph: I think it's rather bad, especially for table-intensive stuff, but I do not know the ration.
20120412 22:47:56< Crab_> neph: out of my head, 2 orders of magnitude
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20120412 22:49:00< Crab_> same with python which is very bad for some workloads, but more-or-less ok for others
20120412 22:49:29< bloodycoin> fendrin: to what bug are you referencing at r53746? http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=revision&revision=53746
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20120412 22:51:48< fendrin> bloodycoin: That bug caused units not moved properly (image glitches, no semantic problems) when the unit animations where disabled in the preferences.
20120412 22:52:50< fendrin> bloodycoin: If you look at the diff at the commit you will see that the preferences option being set caused a method to return to early since I sorted the lifted code at the wrong place.
20120412 22:53:02< timotei> http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/3822602_700b.jpg
20120412 22:53:29< fendrin> timotei: lol
20120412 22:53:32< timotei> Yeah
20120412 22:53:35< timotei> Trolling at its finest
20120412 22:53:36< timotei> =))
20120412 22:53:41< fendrin> Indeed.
20120412 22:54:05< fendrin> bloodycoin: s/where/were
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20120412 22:55:28< bloodycoin> hmm.... ok, because that's when https://gna.org/bugs/?19614 got introduced.... I could just revert, but I don't want to reintroduce the same bug again. :)
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20120412 22:57:45< fendrin> bloodycoin: I suspect that bug being caused by me. I will investigate, thank you for hinting me to it.
20120412 22:58:29< fendrin> bloodycoin: But I do not suspect the fix being the cause but some other code that I lifted faulty around the display classes.
20120412 22:59:38< bloodycoin> fendrin, I am looking into it, jsut wanted to know what bug you fixed, and how to reproduce it to check if it still persists
20120412 22:59:44< bloodycoin> *just
20120412 23:00:51< fendrin> bloodycoin: Okay, most likely the problem is that adjacent hexes don't get invalidated properly. Searching my commits for "adjacent" might bring you very near to the cause. 
20120412 23:01:58< mattsc> neph: I applied your latest revision and it looks good now
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20120412 23:07:54< bloodycoin> fendrin: Just to confirm, to reproduce the bug you fixed, I have to disable map animations and when what? move units? 
20120412 23:08:03< mattsc> Hi, Alarantalara.  Thanks for the comments!
20120412 23:08:16< fendrin> bloodycoin: Yes, right.
20120412 23:08:40-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20120412 23:08:46< mattsc> I have given the player wolf riders (which helps), and let the Messenger do attacks when the enemy can not retaliate or when there's a high chance of making a kill.
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20120412 23:09:12< Alarantalara> mattsc: it was my pleasure. As you can probably tell from their frequency, I find AI rather interesting
20120412 23:09:17< bloodycoin> fendrin: does unit graphics have to be bigger than hex? or no?
20120412 23:09:36< mattsc> I'm currently thinking about how to teach the computer what 'between' means (as in, in between the leader and the enemies)
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20120412 23:10:10< Alarantalara> I also noticed a way to increase the evaluation speed of find_enemies_in_way by about 15%
20120412 23:10:13< mattsc> Alarantalara: I got that impression, yes.  Your feedback's always very helpful to me.
20120412 23:10:25< fendrin> bloodycoin: Most unit images are smaller than a hex field.
20120412 23:11:10< mattsc> which is?
20120412 23:11:27< bloodycoin> fendrin: I know, that's why I am asking if it matters.
20120412 23:11:30< Alarantalara> every unit on a path hex is also adjacent, so they're currently being tested 3 times
20120412 23:11:41< Alarantalara> once on the hex, once adjacent before and once after
20120412 23:11:49< mattsc> I haven't done anything to streamline the code yet (or even put all the contents in).  This was all done in some sort of speed programming exercise.  ;)
20120412 23:12:00< Alarantalara> the one for being on the hex is easy to get rid of and reduces the number of checks by 1/7
20120412 23:12:02< mattsc> s/contents/comments
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20120412 23:12:08< Crab_> mattsc: I'd say that B is between A and C if distance (by pathfinding) AB + BC < k * AC + m , where k and m are some constants. k is slightly >1, m is small.
20120412 23:12:24< Alarantalara> so there's no need to check that hex
20120412 23:12:31< Crab_> mattsc: like a discrete version of triangle equation
20120412 23:12:31< Alarantalara> explicitly, anyway
20120412 23:13:12< mattsc> Alarantalara: yes, that's correct, but ...
20120412 23:13:30< Crab_> mattsc: alternatively, if you need to check many hexes at once, you can make raytracing  - move from A to C, mark hexes on a route, and then block of hexes one by one to get other routes.
20120412 23:13:35< bloodycoin> fendrin: because with your changes reverted, and map anim disabled I see no artifacts when moving units
20120412 23:13:52< mattsc> I actually did it intentionally that way so that units _on_ the path will get found first.  But there's probably a more efficient way to do that.
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20120412 23:14:39< fendrin> bloodycoin: Please disable unit standing animations or just everything gui related as well.
20120412 23:14:40< Alarantalara> well, the way you have it, the adjacent checks will catch every step on the path before the path itself in all cases but the first step
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20120412 23:15:10< mattsc> Alarantalara: Hmm, thanks, I have to check that.  That wasn't the intention...
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20120412 23:15:55< Alarantalara> It makes sense to check it the way you have it though, since you can move on the path if an adjacent one is occupied
20120412 23:16:03< mattsc> Crab_, thanks, that's an intersting way of doing that
20120412 23:16:04< Alarantalara> *can't
20120412 23:16:49< mattsc> Alarantalara: yes, that is why I check for adjacent hexes.  I'll need to go over it more carefully again, that's for sure.
20120412 23:17:03< bloodycoin> fendrin: ok
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20120412 23:17:31< fendrin> bloodycoin: anonymissimus reported the bug, he might know best how to reproduce it. But I could reproduce it easily as well.
20120412 23:17:56< mattsc> Crab_: what I've been thinking of for a weighting function is something simple like: AB + BC, which gives you all hexes on the line connecting A and C as equal
20120412 23:18:14< anonymissimus> fendrin: which bug ?
20120412 23:18:24< mattsc> but with smaller values than hexes off the line
20120412 23:18:39< mattsc> or AB^2 + BC^2 which gives you a minimum right in the middle between them
20120412 23:18:47< bloodycoin> fendrin, If there is a filled bug in bug tracker, that would help
20120412 23:19:21< mattsc> Those or simple weighting functions which I can easily (and quickly) add (or multiply) to other weightings I have
20120412 23:19:46< Crab_> mattsc: note that theoretically it's possible to mess with C++ pathfinding to give a version which produces fuzzy paths which have not-only-optimal hexes
20120412 23:20:02< Crab_> mattsc: that would be way faster from C++
20120412 23:20:25< Crab_> mattsc: something like 'all paths between A and B with up to X overhead'
20120412 23:20:35< anonymissimus> mattsc: gah, I'm trying to beat your catch the messenger scenario; and again he's through
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20120412 23:20:47< mattsc> Crab_: interesting.  I'll keep this in mind.  But you need to access those from c++?
20120412 23:20:54< fendrin> bloodycoin: Sure, but we usually don't fill bug reports for bugs only present in trunk, and being fixed shortly after they got introduced. I wonder why you want to reproduce the bug.
20120412 23:21:14< anonymissimus> this is just too much about finding the actual weaknesses by many trials I guess
20120412 23:21:27< anonymissimus> or Alarantalara had a lot of luck
20120412 23:21:35< Crab_> mattsc: the end result is location multigraph, so it can be transferred to lua in any form we can think of
20120412 23:21:37< mattsc> anonymissimus: :D
20120412 23:21:53< Alarantalara> not that much, I'll send you the replay if you like
20120412 23:21:54< Crab_> mattsc: i.e. if you only need locations, it's a set of locations, a structure we already know how to convert to lua
20120412 23:22:19< bloodycoin> fendrin: I want to know how to reproduce it to check if it's there or not after I am done fiddling with code
20120412 23:22:44< mattsc> anonymissimus: spam yourself a wolf rider at 10,10 (which is what the current, unpublished version has).  It helps a lot.
20120412 23:22:57< mattsc> sorry, at 10,20
20120412 23:23:07< Crab_> mattsc: but it has also values associated with locations, like 'distance to A' and 'distance to B' for each location, or the corresponding 'locations of neighbours closer to A then me', and 'locations of neighbours closer to B than me'
20120412 23:23:25< fendrin> bloodycoin: Okay, tell me when you need assistance or further questions answered.
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20120412 23:23:53< anonymissimus> 10,10 is surrounded by cavewall
20120412 23:24:12< mattsc> anonymissimus: right, sorry, 10,20
20120412 23:24:19< anonymissimus> Alarantalara: can you attach your replay to the thread pls
20120412 23:24:35< Alarantalara> sure, I'll edit into my post
20120412 23:24:41< mattsc> anonymissimus: well, anywhere really.  10,20 is far enough away that the wolf rider cannot get to the action until Turn 3
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20120412 23:25:42< anonymissimus> mattsc: btw, you appear like a student perhaps that's why everyone thinks you are :P
20120412 23:25:47< mattsc> Crab_: I _think_ that would be useful to have access too.  My thoughts on those things are still fuzzy enough that I'm not sure exactly what will help and/or be the best.
20120412 23:26:24< mattsc> anonymissimus: you mean because I don't act like a grown-up?  :D
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20120412 23:27:39< anonymissimus> no; you like playing wesnoth; you like coding it; you learn lua fast; I don't know whether you have some other coding background but if I had to guess I'd say you have; that's some student attributes :P
20120412 23:28:38< Alarantalara> anonymissimus: replay is attached to my last post in that topic now. According to the statistics, I was actually unlucky during the replay
20120412 23:29:02< mattsc> well, I do try to resist growing up as much as I can though...  I have a science background, coding is part of the job when it's needed, but as a tool rather than as the product itself.
20120412 23:29:59< mattsc> In other things, I (kind of) know how to make things work, but don't always know how I am supposed to do it (things like version control etc.)  :)
20120412 23:30:47< mattsc> anonymissimus: do you want me to put the current version on the add-ons server, which has 2 of Alarantalara's changes from his post implemented (wolf riders and messenger attacks)?
20120412 23:31:45< mattsc> I was going to work on the 3rd suggestion (placing units in between messenger and enemies) before doing that, but that might take a little before I get it done.
20120412 23:33:35< Alarantalara> mattsc: I forgot to say this earlier, but I suspect that trying to beat that scenario the way you first posted it likely made me a better player
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20120412 23:34:27< mattsc> Alarantalara: :D   (I'd like to claim that that was intentional, but ...)
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20120412 23:46:11< mattsc> Alarantalara, I checked out your replay.  I can see how having the messenger do attacks on Grunts would have been a problem for you.  It does that now...
20120412 23:47:08< Alarantalara> mattsc: very much so, and I haven't found a way to do it that takes less damage yet. I'm already not attacking as much as possible to minimize what I take
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20120412 23:52:20< anonymissimus> Alarantalara: well, first big luck: your first grunt wasn't killed on his first "being attacked"
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20120412 23:52:41< anonymissimus> if that had happened, the messenger would have been through :)
20120412 23:55:04< Alarantalara> anonymissimus: That's reasonably consistent. The expected damage is about 11 less than the health of the unit
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20120412 23:56:29< anonymissimus> I had him die
20120412 23:58:59< neph> Crab_, if I suddenly decide to expand the AI with my ideas, where would I place my stage/ca code? Lua isn't viable due to low performance. I don't really want to add another "testing AI" because we have one, and expanding the current one would lead to nothing more, but unused(by mainstream) AI code
20120412 23:59:05< anonymissimus> mattsc: well, I made it with the wolf rider now; and maybe I wouldn't even have needed him
20120412 23:59:40< mattsc> anonymissimus: ok, I just did a quick upload of the version that has both the wolf rider and has the messenger attack sometimes.
--- Log closed Fri Apr 13 00:00:00 2012