--- Log opened Fri Apr 13 00:00:00 2012
--- Day changed Fri Apr 13 2012
20120413 00:00:00< anonymissimus> and I don't understand this "move one hex away from the unit you want to block thing"; if you move the blocking unit directly besides the messenger, there is on hex less from which the blocker can get attacked prviously to the messnger's move
20120413 00:00:13< mattsc> The wolf rider really helps, I think.  First time I tried, I won without recruiting or using the orc leader.
20120413 00:00:41< anonymissimus> I don't think I ever thought with a recruit
20120413 00:00:51< anonymissimus> not even a quick assassin
20120413 00:00:58< anonymissimus> fought
20120413 00:01:06< mattsc> I have to take off right now for a little though (one of the disadvantages of not being a student)
20120413 00:01:20< anonymissimus> cu
20120413 00:01:30< Alarantalara> none of the recruits ever get there in time when I was doing it without wolf riders
20120413 00:01:34< mattsc> well, in the new version you can recruit wolf riders.  They can get there in time
20120413 00:01:37< mattsc> bye
20120413 00:01:39< neph> Crab_, I just mainly want to simulate a situation with the CA swapper/analyzer, by doing dummy work proportional to the assumed complexity of the analyzer/swapper.
20120413 00:02:45< Crab_> neph: ok
20120413 00:03:22< neph> Crab_, I suspect you didn't notice the message above this one
20120413 00:03:51< neph> :)
20120413 00:03:54< Crab_> neph: no, I haven't. 
20120413 00:03:55< anonymissimus> mattsc: what makes this so difficult compared to the standard AI is simply that the AI concentrates on moving and protecting the messenger; the right tactics to choose in UTBS is luring away any guards and block the messenger alone with a few quick units
20120413 00:04:08< Alarantalara> anonymissimus: I calculate a 22% chance of death with that first move
20120413 00:04:10< Crab_> neph: src/ai/FOO/BAR
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20120413 00:04:56< Crab_> neph: i.e. src/ai/nephro/swapper.cpp
20120413 00:05:13< Crab_> or, use the codename of your project as the 3rd component
20120413 00:05:45< Crab_> and use the extra namespace, as with src/ai/testing
20120413 00:06:57< Alarantalara> anonymissimus: you usually don't have to do much to lure away the guards. The current AI will just attack the bulk of your army immediately without you having to do anything
20120413 00:07:18< anonymissimus> yeah; thats the point
20120413 00:07:47< neph> Crab_, and do I commit that to trunk or make a branch(or local branch)
20120413 00:07:50< neph> ?
20120413 00:08:20< Alarantalara> mattsc's AI is enough better that while I'd like to eventually use for UtBS, I'm afraid it will raise the challenge so much that it will have created a tomato surprise
20120413 00:08:34< Alarantalara> s/use for/use it for/
20120413 00:09:14< Alarantalara> at least the escorts there are slower
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20120413 00:22:10< Crab_> neph: I'd strongly prefer trunk
20120413 00:22:42< Crab_> neph: the component-based structure makes it easier to not break existing stuff.
20120413 00:22:54< neph> indeed
20120413 00:26:06< Crab_> even more, it makes it fairly easy to commit stuff that doesn't work (if it compiles without warnings)
20120413 00:26:15< Crab_> so, it's ok to have a WIP here
20120413 00:26:31< Crab_> because you're not going to break anything with it, and it's even separate files (except for registry.cpp entries)
20120413 00:27:16< Crab_> note that the GUI which uses a similar registration mechanism for windows, doesn't need registry.cpp , but that's because it doesn't have the same extent of a linking problem
20120413 00:27:32< Crab_> i.e. if you code a new CA, it's not going to be used from other code
20120413 00:27:44< Crab_> so, the linker can throw it out if there are multiple steps at making the final app
20120413 00:28:26< Crab_> that's why I've reference registry.cpp from ai::manager, via a dummy init method, and put the registry entries in that file to make sure all those classes are 'reachable' from main wesnoth code.
20120413 00:29:02< Crab_> that's better than having to trick every linker we know of to compile it properly. i.e. it's easy with gnu linker, but we're too multiplatform...
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20120413 00:40:17< mattsc> anonymissimus, Alarantalara: well, making an AI that protects the messenger better than the default was the plan.  So while the scenario is a bit unfair (the riders are overpowered compared to the orcs), I guess I succeeded.
20120413 00:41:15< anonymissimus> mattsc: it's much more about time of day I think
20120413 00:42:24< anonymissimus> the archers are very effective during the night; there's only 1 level 2 unit besides the messnger; but you have to let them attack during afternoon at least
20120413 00:43:03< mattsc> anonymissimus: yeah, that's true.  If you can save most of your units into the night without the messenger sneaking through, you usually got it won.
20120413 00:43:14< anonymissimus> and if they manage to kill your first grunt you've basically lost since int turn the messenger gets through
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20120413 00:45:45< mattsc> yeah.  Well, I have to admit that figuring out how to play/set up the human side was not my main concern.  I mostly concentrated on the AI.
20120413 00:49:17< mattsc> So how should I change it to make it more playable?
20120413 00:49:38< mattsc> more orcs?  get them closer to start with?  something along those lines?
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20120413 01:02:55< anonymissimus> I think that wolf rider you added is already enough
20120413 01:03:48< anonymissimus> since it can block the messenger and even more importantly, make him move deeper into the forest, while his comrades are busy
20120413 01:04:03< anonymissimus> and get finished off during the night
20120413 01:04:44< mattsc> anonymissimus: ok, sounds good.  thanks.
20120413 01:04:48< anonymissimus> on that matter...perhaps the pathfinding for the messenger isn't optimal ? it looks like he should try more to get back to the road
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20120413 01:05:29< anonymissimus> that may mean that he gets only a few hexes or not at all into the signpost's direction in the first turn, but more afterwards
20120413 01:05:49< mattsc> agreed.  I've found that too.  That's not a trivial fix though.  
20120413 01:06:22< anonymissimus> but if you call wesnoth.find_path it should return you the full cost for the path
20120413 01:06:46< mattsc> it does, and that's why it goes into the forest, in fact.
20120413 01:07:31< mattsc> It finds the best path given the current situation.  And if there are orcs in the way on the path, it has to move around them, through the forest
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20120413 01:13:59< mattsc> So, if I want to go along the path, I can find that route by using 'ignore_units = true', but then the AI needs to make some judgement call if the other riders might be able to open the path or not.
20120413 01:14:08< mattsc> And I'm not quite sure how to make that call at the moment.
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20120413 01:17:48< Alarantalara> Can you find the path cost for somewhere the unit isn't?
20120413 01:19:37< mattsc> Not in one line, but it can be done.
20120413 01:22:23< Alarantalara> So would comparing the time ignoring units from the furthest you can get on this turn if you were to move on the path assoicated with ignoring units
20120413 01:22:59< Alarantalara> to the time from making this turn's move taking units into account provide a optimistic estimate?
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20120413 01:23:31< Alarantalara> since at the point you're making the move, you know you can't get rid of any more enemies this turn
20120413 01:23:45< Alarantalara> but you could assume that you might get rid of them all next turn
20120413 01:24:12< mattsc> hmm, that's a possibility.
20120413 01:24:32< mattsc> I think I can give that a try.
20120413 01:25:01< mattsc> As I said, I agree that movement of the messenger itself is probably the weakest part of this AI at the moment.
20120413 01:25:44< mattsc> Oh, and I wanted to make a side comment on your "this might be a tomato surprise if included in UtBS".
20120413 01:26:39< mattsc> If I ever find the time and motivation to make Grnk Part 2, I am planning to include several of my AI modifications - but I can only do that if the player is given ample warning that the AI might behave differently.
20120413 01:27:13< mattsc> And, of course, Grnk is not mainline, so I can do whatever I want anyway.  :)  (Part 1 has an above average of surprises in it already)
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20120413 01:29:30< Alarantalara> The reason I mentioned it is that in the campaigns I made, the two scenarios with modified AI also just happen to be among the two hardest in the entire campaign
20120413 01:29:40< Alarantalara> and the AI there is nothing compared to his
20120413 01:31:01< mattsc> yeah, but you give the player 2 more wolf riders, or one Crossbowman, and it won't really be a problem.  You only need a warning that you won't be able to lure away the other riders.
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20120413 01:31:38< Alarantalara> except in UtBS, your army may be otherwise occupied at the same time
20120413 01:31:57< mattsc> that is, of course, true.
20120413 01:32:22< mattsc> Or if you arrive from the save jamit gave me, the messenger won't even get off the ground.
20120413 01:32:27< Crab_> mattsc: or you can redesign a scenario in such a way to allow the player two chances to do it
20120413 01:33:04< mattsc> Crab_: that's interesting!  I hadn't thought of that.  Actually, I really like that idea.  I might just make use of it...
20120413 01:34:46< mattsc> Alarantalara, that's one of the problems with mid-campaign and especially mid-scenario events.  I found that it's really hard to balance them to work under all or most circumstances, especially if small groups of units are involved.  A couple more or less can make a huge difference.
20120413 01:36:44< Alarantalara> mid scenario events is probably the defining feature of that campaign
20120413 01:37:06< Crab_> mattsc: on -easy, you can even add some in-game strategy advice on how-to-do-it [e.g. as dialogue from the commander(s) who observed the first failure]
20120413 01:37:32< mattsc> Alarantalara: yes, and I really like it for that.  In fact, it had a huge influence on my campaigns.
20120413 01:38:01< mattsc> I'm just saying that it's hard.
20120413 01:38:22< mattsc> as in, hard to balance
20120413 01:38:34< mattsc> Crab_, yeah.  I like it more and more.  :)
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20120413 02:28:12< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53909 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/08_Out_of_the_Frying_Pan.cfg: simplify some more conditions and filters
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20120413 02:39:09< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53910 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/02_Across_the_Harsh_Sands.cfg: delete/clear at scenario end some variables found with inspect in later scenarios
20120413 02:40:49< fendrin> Alarantalara: You are taking that job seriously, are you? :-)
20120413 02:41:47< Alarantalara> cleaning up UtBS? Yes I am. Espreon got me started doing it for Eftboren and it's taken on a life of its own
20120413 02:55:51< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53911 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/02_Across_the_Harsh_Sands.cfg: use nested event with delayed_variable_substitution=no to remove all ring_* variables
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20120413 02:58:06< Ivanovic> hi everybody!
20120413 02:58:10< Ivanovic> greetings from denver
20120413 02:59:52< Crab_> hi, Ivanovic
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20120413 03:07:09< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53912 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/02_Across_the_Harsh_Sands.cfg: apply cleanup from Eftboren to scenario 2
20120413 03:08:30< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53913 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/02_Across_the_Harsh_Sands.cfg: grammar correction: "See that shining speckles" -> "See those shining speckles"
20120413 03:16:27< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53914 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/02_Across_the_Harsh_Sands.cfg: unclear some fog (from Eftboren - accidentally skipped when merging for r53913)
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20120413 03:26:49< Ivanovic> hi gabba 
20120413 03:27:02< gabba> hi Ivanovic
20120413 03:27:03< Ivanovic> hey, atm i am rather awake when you are around
20120413 03:27:04< Ivanovic> ;)
20120413 03:27:24< gabba> He he yeah :)
20120413 03:27:36< gabba> My schedule changed a lot because of my new job
20120413 03:27:55< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53915 /trunk/changelog: all these changes to UtBS deserve a changlog update
20120413 03:28:32< Ivanovic> yeah, that is quite normal
20120413 03:28:40< Ivanovic> i hope you enjoy your job
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20120413 03:47:09< dokem> What exactly is the 'whiteboard'?
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20120413 03:47:44< Ivanovic> dokem: a planning system which you can eg use in multiplayer to plan moves together with your team members
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20120413 03:51:59< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53916 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/09_Blood_is_Thicker_Than_Water.cfg: delete unused variable
20120413 03:52:27< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53917 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/09_Blood_is_Thicker_Than_Water.cfg: Mermaid Priestesses are female...
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20120413 04:10:44< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53918 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/ (2 files in 2 dirs): starting locations do not need to be keeps any more
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20120413 04:54:11< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53919 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/09_Blood_is_Thicker_Than_Water.cfg: fix bugs associated with rescuing merfolk: extra messages when defeated at time of sacrifice, no defeat if rescued 2 merfolk on sacrifice even if < 3 left alive
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20120413 05:20:10< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53920 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/09_Blood_is_Thicker_Than_Water.cfg: fix comment, ifdef,else -> ifndef
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20120413 05:30:24< dokem> if I wanted to control the window geometry would I use SDL
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20120413 09:03:53< trademark__> fendrin, I'm sorry for yesterday, I immediately left. So where-what is this per-leader recruit list and how to use it ? 
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20120413 10:34:39< hankerspace_> wesbot seen crab
20120413 10:34:39< wesbot> hankerspace_: Sorry, I don't know of crab.
20120413 10:34:45< hankerspace_> wesbot seen Crab_
20120413 10:34:45< wesbot> hankerspace_: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 7h 34m ago.  6h 18m ago person left:
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20120413 11:48:18< Teugon> I've ended a new AI function and added also the lua function. Do I have to run some tests in addition to the compile task before submitting the patch ? I mean do I have first show the code to someone to let him accept it, or sort of ?
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20120413 13:20:14< Akihara> Hi crab_, I think I found something on the poisoning stuff :) I'll be here again in a few hours!
20120413 13:20:41< Akihara> Crab_ ^
20120413 13:24:30< vultraz> fendrin: how goes the editor?
20120413 13:24:47< vultraz> BTW, are you still going to add that unit mounting thingy?
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20120413 13:47:42< fendrin> vultraz: I have lifted the editor_palette to an item_palette which is no longer editor specific.
20120413 13:48:00< fendrin> vultraz: That is used for the unit mounting thingy.
20120413 13:48:43< fendrin> vultraz: The editor itself got some bugfixes, I want to get it stable before going after new features.
20120413 13:49:44< fendrin> vultraz: When my codebase is clean enough to commit the editor will be able to write simple multiplayer scenarios with preset units.
20120413 13:49:44< vultraz> so you still need the recolored attack image arrows?
20120413 13:50:20< vultraz> nice :D
20120413 13:51:30< fendrin> Yeah, recolored would already help, redesigned arrows that look more like, entering than killing would be even better.
20120413 13:51:49< vultraz> hum
20120413 13:51:58< fendrin> And I still need a black and white + colored mouse overlay for the mounting action.
20120413 13:52:00< vultraz> what would entering arrows look like
20120413 13:53:30< fendrin> Entering most units means going down inside the bulk of a ship for example.
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20120413 13:57:15< vultraz> hum
20120413 13:57:16< fendrin> Thus I imagine that an arrow that is looking like decent (I searched for the right word but there does not seem to be a descension).
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20120413 14:02:32< vultraz> fendrin: how about an arrow bobbing above the unit
20120413 14:08:05< fendrin> vultraz: Sorry, I have to leave immediately . See you later :-)
20120413 14:08:13< vultraz> k
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20120413 16:13:17< boucman> hey all 
20120413 16:13:20< boucman> bloodycoin: around ?
20120413 16:27:48< Espreon> boucman: Hello!
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20120413 17:07:49< mattsc> anonymissimus, Alarantalara: after a bit of breakfast coding (that's something students would do, right?), i've made some changes to the messenger scenario, following our discussion yesterday:
20120413 17:09:43-!- khoover [~crazy1010@70.51.111.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20120413 17:10:30< mattsc> 1. The messenger now considers 2 path options.  The one that he can currently take.  The one he could take if no enemies were in the way.  If going as far on the latter as currently possible would mean a quicker path to the signpost on the next turn (assuming no enemies in the way then), that one is taken instead of the current possible path.
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20120413 17:10:43< mattsc> I believe that is what Alarantalara suggested yesterday.
20120413 17:11:57< mattsc> 2. I changed one hex on the map.  The player can now get 2 units in the messenger's way on Turn 2, eliminating the risk of losing due to the grunt being killed on that turn.
20120413 17:12:39< mattsc> 3. Changed find_enemies_in_way() to improve efficiency as suggested by Alarantalara
20120413 17:14:04< mattsc> If you have time, feedback on whether 1. improves or worsens the AI would be much appreciated.  (This is in v0.5.2)
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20120413 17:21:38< boucman> mattsc: i'm very impressed by your work, btw...
20120413 17:22:04< mattsc> boucman, thanks!
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20120413 17:32:56< teugon> how can I understand if something went wrong in a move_result object after I've called execute or check before on it ?
20120413 17:38:56< teugon> the only thing I've seen watching the class hierarchy is get_status(). Does it cointains a value of the tresult field ?
20120413 17:39:34< mattsc> teugon: you mean in c++, not lua, right?
20120413 17:40:18< teugon> @mattsc: Yes, I mean C++.
20120413 17:41:24< mattsc> teugon, ok, I can't help then...
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20120413 17:48:18< teugon> @mattsc: I've this compiling error I can't solve: I'm trying to delete a move_result_ptr object with this call: "delete <object_name>;", however the compiler tells me this error: " error: type ‘ai::move_result_ptr {aka class boost::shared_ptr<ai::move_result>}’ argument given to ‘delete’, expected pointer" 
20120413 17:48:28< teugon> can you help me with that ?
20120413 17:50:54< teugon> I thought It was a trailing error, but It wasn't.
20120413 17:51:03< mattsc> teugon: no, sorry, I'm not a C++ programmer.  Generically interpreting this error message, it sounds to me like the argument you're passing to 'delete' is not the type of argument it expects (pointer).  But besides that, I have no idea...
20120413 17:52:14< boucman> teugon: I'm not an expert at boost::shared_ptr, but you might want to look at the documentation...
20120413 17:52:27< boucman> I'm not sure you have to or can call delete on these
20120413 17:54:21< teugon> damn, so let's hard watch it.
20120413 17:56:12< teugon> *go
20120413 18:03:38< teugon> I've found it out: shared_ptrs  get freed after  .reset() (if refcount is 0)
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20120413 18:38:25< Alarantalara> mattsc: Wonderful! Taking a  look at it now. As for the "breakfast coding", you just need to add some lunch and dinner coding and you'll be on your way to being a grad student
20120413 18:39:20< mattsc> Alarantalara: thanks and :)
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20120413 18:43:01< Alarantalara> I think I'm going to have to play worse than I could. The extra wolf rider combined with the terrain change was enough to make it too easy to win - at the level that the AI didn't get a chance to try its new logic at all
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20120413 18:43:59< mattsc> yeah, I thought it was on the easy side now as well, but figured I wait for comments first before making it harder again.
20120413 18:47:11< Alarantalara> The new logic appears to work if the attackers have unit on only one side of the path, but once both sides are blocked, it causes the AI to try and run through the opposition, which is obviously worse behaviour
20120413 18:48:37< mattsc> I think what you meant with "optimistic" yesterday.  It assumes that the opposition is eliminated on the next turn, at least those blocking the way.
20120413 18:48:50< mattsc> I think that is what ...
20120413 18:48:50< bloodycoin> boucman, yes?
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20120413 18:49:07< boucman> bloodycoin: did you change your proposal recently ?
20120413 18:49:34< boucman> I mentionned once that I would be very interested in a more detailed proposal, in particular with its interaction with the current drawing system and its layering...
20120413 18:49:35< Alarantalara> It's definitely optimistic... however it appears that the optimism is not always justified
20120413 18:49:37< bloodycoin> only updated info about bugfixes and commits
20120413 18:49:42< mattsc> So sometimes this is a good move (when you almost can break through), and sometimes it's not.
20120413 18:49:46< boucman> k...
20120413 18:49:51< Alarantalara> mattsc: exactly
20120413 18:50:03< boucman> will you have time to work on it this WE ?
20120413 18:50:31< mattsc> Alarantalara: so that's where you need to make a judgement call.  And that's hard to teach a computer...
20120413 18:50:49< bloodycoin> oh, right, you asked that like a question and we went to figuring out bugs..
20120413 18:50:57< mattsc> Also, you need to anticipate what the enemy might do on the next turn
20120413 18:51:20< bloodycoin> Yea, I should have time, actually I could start working on it now
20120413 18:51:31< boucman> well, you have proved yourself on the coding side, but you really should go deeper on the proposal side of things
20120413 18:51:40< boucman> that would be nice... 
20120413 18:52:51< bloodycoin> oh, ok.. But on which part should I concentrate now? Integration to current drawing system?
20120413 18:53:09< bloodycoin> Or anything else?
20120413 18:53:47< boucman> anything you find usefull (effects, lua/wml side syntax, integration...) but integration definitely needs some work
20120413 18:54:15< boucman> I'll leave in about an hour, so I can give you feedback before leaving, and i'll be here tomorow
20120413 18:56:33< mattsc> Alarantalara: I'll weight for comments from anonymissimus, if he has any, and then think about this some more tonight.  In the meantime, I think I've come up with a weighting function for placing the AI units between the messenger and the enemies.
20120413 18:56:39< bloodycoin> Should I just describe integration in words, pseudo code or concrete examples?
20120413 18:56:53< bloodycoin> Or mix or everything?
20120413 18:57:09< mattsc> If d_m is the distance of a hex from the messenger, and d_e_i is distance from enemy number i:
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20120413 18:57:23< bloodycoin> *of
20120413 18:57:59< mattsc> rating = sum(d_e_i) + d_m * #enemies + d_m^2   :D
20120413 18:58:22< mattsc> The hex with the minimum value wins.
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20120413 19:02:04< vultraz> hey fendrin 
20120413 19:02:06< mattsc> The first two terms make the AI prefer hexes on the line between the messenger and an enemy, summed over all enemies.  The last term strongly prefers hexes close to the messenger.
20120413 19:03:45< boucman> bloodycoin: whatever you feel is more representative, it's for me to understand how you see the stuff working, not something we would reuse if we take you in
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20120413 19:19:41< fendrin> hi vultraz
20120413 19:20:13< vultraz> fendrin: so what do you think of a arrow bobbing above the unit
20120413 19:20:17< vultraz> an*
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20120413 19:24:29< fendrin> vultraz: I currently reuse the code for attacking a unit. Which is a similar situation.
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20120413 19:25:36< vultraz> well, I was thinking the attack arrow for attacking from the north to bob above the unit you're entering/mounting
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20120413 19:26:37< fendrin> vultraz: I have an idea, give me a minute to find an example, please.
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20120413 19:36:13< fendrin> vultraz: http://www.brusheezy.com/brushes/9569-arrow-brush-pack/premium
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20120413 19:36:57< fendrin> vultraz: the first one in the second row, rotated to point downwards.
20120413 19:37:20< vultraz> ohh
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20120413 19:51:28< boucman> bloodycoin: ok, i have to run earlier than expected, I'll read your proposal again tomorow morning, sry
20120413 19:51:51< mattsc> Alarantalara, anonymissimus: of course I lied, and did some more changes instead of waiting after all (on the server in v0.5.3)
20120413 19:52:11< mattsc> - I reverted the terrain change, to make it a little harder again (it's still pretty easy with the wolf rider)
20120413 19:53:01< mattsc> - The decision to take the path "through the middle" is now taken only if it results in a significant potential gain on the next turn (defined as at least 5MP gained)
20120413 19:53:02< bloodycoin> no problem... I have to rethink some things
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20120413 19:53:32< mattsc> - I added the "place riders between enemy and messenger" movement.
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20120413 19:54:41< mattsc> Of course, the later only takes effect when the riders move to protect the messenger, not when they try to clear enemies out of the way.  So it is mostly visible during the first turn, and after the messenger breaks through.  And it also has some side effects...
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20120413 19:55:21< Alarantalara> mattsc: that solution to the optimism problem sounds interesting, but wouldn't the potential benefit be best exactly when you are completely blocked?
20120413 19:55:40< Alarantalara> and the only route requires moving backwards
20120413 19:56:01< Alarantalara> time to experiment - perhaps placing units with debug to see
20120413 19:56:41< mattsc> Alarantalara: yes, that's how I test these things (in fact, I have a specific debug scenario, in which I can just get the evaluation of a move, without it actually being executed)
20120413 19:57:08< mattsc> I think that the situation you describe is when the "optimistic route" kicks in.
20120413 19:57:51< mattsc> If the only open route is by moving backward, through the forest, you add a lot of MP (cost) to the possible move.
20120413 19:58:35< mattsc> By contrast, the move toward the path, even if blocked, is much shorter, so it is taken instead.
20120413 19:58:42< mattsc> Or did you mean it the other way around?
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20120413 20:00:57< Alarantalara> I'm not sure. I haven't been able to convince it to take the optimistic route yet htough
20120413 20:01:03< Alarantalara> so it's hard to say
20120413 20:02:32< mattsc> Yeah.  I think it's a difficult call in most situations.  There are certainly times when I would take the route through the forest as human player as well.
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20120413 20:03:20< Alarantalara> Yes, it now only takes the optimistic route when it is not helpful at all
20120413 20:04:07< mattsc> Alarantalara: ok, so that's no good.  So which of the previous two versions should I revert to.
20120413 20:04:08< mattsc> ?
20120413 20:04:24< Alarantalara> probably the non-optimistic version
20120413 20:04:55< Alarantalara> it's really only better in cases where there are few enemies in the way and they're mostly on one side
20120413 20:05:10< mattsc> ok, so mostly that's what it is doing right now anyway...
20120413 20:06:05< mattsc> So I'll leave it like it is for now.  If you want to experiment with it yourself, in lua/messenger_escort.lua, there's a line:
20120413 20:06:18< mattsc>     if (cost2 + 4 < cost1) then
20120413 20:06:43< mattsc> Set the '4' to '0' and you're back to it preferring the optimistic route.
20120413 20:07:15< mattsc> Set it to a large value (10 or so should be enough in almost all situations) and it will not take the optimistic route
20120413 20:07:59< Alarantalara> It is optimistic in sthis situation currently: http://imagebin.org/207934
20120413 20:08:32< Alarantalara> If either of the flanking ladies is missing, then it goes around on that side
20120413 20:09:00< mattsc> Alarantalara: yeah, I can see that.  Because going around them would add more than 5 to the cost of the move, so it's trying to punch its way through instead.
20120413 20:09:58< Alarantalara> of course, there isn't really a good option in that situation
20120413 20:10:41< mattsc> agreed.  What would you do as human player in that situation?
20120413 20:10:52< Alarantalara> this one is interesting since the AI blocked the one optimistic space it could move to with one of its own units, though
20120413 20:11:19< Alarantalara> all three of the forward hexes were clear at the start of its turn
20120413 20:11:31< mattsc> but it did this in the process of trying to open up a route, right?
20120413 20:11:35< Alarantalara> yes
20120413 20:12:12< mattsc> so at least it's doing what I told it to do.  Whether that's the best here is another question.
20120413 20:13:32< jamit> mattsc: You mentioned the length of the routes. Do you ever convert movement costs to a number of turns?
20120413 20:13:32< Alarantalara> that's why the lady on the right is so injured. In fact, they would break through next turn correctly here if it wasn't possible for me to pin the messenger with the remaining 3 units on my turn
20120413 20:14:44< mattsc> jamit: I usually don't, except for figuring out what can be reached on the current turn.  It's easily possible though.
20120413 20:15:30< jamit> Just skimming over the discussion, I was wondering if the relative speeds of the units was ever taken into consideration. For example, going around a slow unit is likely to work out better than going around a quick one.
20120413 20:15:46< mattsc> Alarantalara, yeah, that's where predicting the enemy moves would come in handy.  I haven't figured out how to teach that to the computer yet.
20120413 20:15:54< jamit> It might even be better than trying to punch through, even if it costs more movement.
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20120413 20:16:47< Alarantalara> jamit: the extra cost to move around a unit effectively requires you to have more than double the enemy's move in some cases
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20120413 20:17:27< jamit> Even if you have those other units to help keep a route clear?
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20120413 20:17:29< mattsc> jamit, it isn't taken into account here, no.  I'm not sure if it would make much of a difference (for the reason Alarantalara mentions), but I'll think about it too.
20120413 20:18:22< jamit> Admittedly, I haven't worked out the details. It's just something that occurred to me, looking at horses and ladies.
20120413 20:18:44< mattsc> jamit: then you need to decide when blocking the way is better than attacking units etc., which quickly makes things much more complicated.
20120413 20:19:04< jamit> I never claimed it was easy.... ;)
20120413 20:19:24< mattsc> Not saying that it shouldn't be done, just that so far I have been trying to come up with the easiest way that almost does a good job.  :)
20120413 20:19:49< Alarantalara> jamit: they would have to move into positions designed to minimize the enemy's ability to move into the desired path. Those two forward ladies are located such that if you attack them from the current locations and they don't die, there is no move the messenger can make that they can't block
20120413 20:20:30< mattsc> Anyway, I need to take off for a while now.  Thanks for all the comments, they've been extremely useful.  Esp. the move-units-in-between part is something I've been thinking about for a while, but had never actually done.  I need that for some of my other projects.
20120413 20:20:32< Alarantalara> and that's with them moving 5 and the messenger moving 8 on all terrain
20120413 20:20:37< jamit> That's what implementers (you) are for. The one tossing out ideas (me) is often better off not considering how tough the idea is. :D
20120413 20:21:16< mattsc> I'll check back in here later.  This is a lot of fun!
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20120413 20:22:07< jamit> What are the chances of a lady dying after being attacked by two units?
20120413 20:23:18< enchilado> Wouldn't that depend on what the units were?
20120413 20:23:40< jamit> They look like cavalry.
20120413 20:24:59< jamit> The chance of busting through might be something else to factor into the decision-making.
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20120413 20:25:35< enchilado> When calculating the chance of someone being killed, you need to examine the situation a little more closely than 'they look like cavalry'
20120413 20:26:01< vultraz> Alarantalara: I have a suggestion: add 2 embellishment terrains to mainline: lit and unlit brazier
20120413 20:26:03< jamit> That might be why I asked.
20120413 20:27:17< jamit> Enchilado, were you following the discussion with mattsc and Alarantalara? That gives the context for my question.
20120413 20:28:18< enchilado> jamit: no, I missed the start of the conversation
20120413 20:28:46< jamit> The AI tried to punch through defenders by attacking a lady with two mounted units. It failed, but was it a reasonable strategy? That depends on how likely it was to punch through.
20120413 20:29:33< enchilado> well, it could depend on other things as well, but certainly that's rather an important thing to work out.
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20120413 20:34:57< Alarantalara> vultraz: given the amount of discussion I ran into about adding the campfire, which already was a terrain in one mainline campaign, I'm not enormously eager to add too many embellishments from the scenery images, especially at a time when fenrdin is working to make it possible to place them all in the editor without resorting to terrain
20120413 20:37:44< vultraz> actually, the images aren't in mainline at all....I don't think
20120413 20:38:40< Alarantalara> vultraz: there's the {ANIMATED_BRAZIER} macro and an unlit one in scenery
20120413 20:39:52< Alarantalara> The macro is only used in two scenarios in the mainline campaigns
20120413 20:40:03 * vultraz can't find it
20120413 20:40:08< vultraz> the image
20120413 20:40:24< Alarantalara> core/images/scenery/brazier*
20120413 20:41:31< Alarantalara> sorry, images/items
20120413 20:41:51< vultraz> ohthereitis
20120413 20:43:16< vultraz> why are they in item/....?
20120413 20:43:44< Alarantalara> no idea
20120413 20:44:13< vultraz> IMO....they should be in scenery/
20120413 20:44:49< Alarantalara> I shudder to think of how many scenarios moving them would break :)
20120413 20:45:08< vultraz> how many :P
20120413 20:45:21< vultraz> on;y about 500
20120413 20:45:24< vultraz> XD
20120413 20:45:52< vultraz> that's the funny thing about images
20120413 20:45:56< Alarantalara> about 15 in mainline
20120413 20:46:00< vultraz> and resources
20120413 20:46:18< vultraz> once you name them.....you're stuck with the name
20120413 20:46:38< vultraz> or put them somewhere, they have to stay ther
20120413 20:47:10< Alarantalara> actually, terrain images have moved/changed names frequently
20120413 20:47:35< Alarantalara> but of course they're not referenced directly often
20120413 20:47:56< vultraz> well all you have to do for terrain is update the terrain graphics paths
20120413 20:48:22< vultraz> stuff like scenery is used in dozens of UMC stuff
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20120413 20:59:26< CIA-69> jamit * r53921 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): 
20120413 20:59:26< CIA-69> Streamline enemy_zoc() and find_routes().
20120413 20:59:26< CIA-69> (Pass the current team as a parameter rather than team vector + current side.)
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20120413 21:49:19< CIA-69> jamit * r53922 /trunk/src/ (actions.cpp pathfind/pathfind.cpp pathfind/pathfind.hpp): 
20120413 21:49:19< CIA-69> New specialization of "paths" class to implement vision.
20120413 21:49:19< CIA-69> Consequentially, shift edge-finding from clear_shroud_loc() to find_routes().
20120413 21:49:19< CIA-69> (Allows more streamlining, to come later.)
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20120413 21:56:20< Crab_> jamit: just in case, are you measuring the performance of pathfinding before/after your changes? AI speed on large maps is quite sensitive to the speed of pathfinding, so even a trivial detail there can be for better or worse.
20120413 22:01:00< Crab_> Akihara: do you have time now to tell me about the poisoning stuff?
20120413 22:01:56< Crab_> teugon: check combat_phase::execute in src/ai/testing/ca.cpp to see how to check the return value of ai actions
20120413 22:03:07< Crab_> Teugon: also you do not need to do anything to delete the pointer, and there's no need to call reset(), in most cases - the destructor of the shared pointer decrements the counter by 1, and when the counter reaches 0, delete gets called. so, it happens on scope exit, when there are no more shared pointer references to the objec.t
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20120413 22:06:42< Teugon> <Crab_>: AFAIK C++ have no garbage collector so I have to decrement the reference count for the object when I don't need it anymore. Am I wrong ?
20120413 22:08:28< Crab_> yes. but since the concept of maintaining that counter and calling delete is independent from the type of the object, it's possible to code a generic 'reference counted smart pointer'. one example is boost/shared_ptr
20120413 22:09:01< Crab_> Teugon: so, it's a already-done implementation of what you are talking of.
20120413 22:09:20< Crab_> each implementation has it's own problems, of course
20120413 22:11:37< Crab_> see http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_49_0/libs/smart_ptr/shared_ptr.htm and http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/shared_ptr.html for details
20120413 22:12:38< Teugon> Crab_: I'm missing only one thing ATM I need to know if the unit in const map_location& "to" is my own unit or it is not. I've give a fast watch but I was especting you to ask for hints. I've seen I can get something with resources::units->find(to) but It gives me an Iterator and I don't know if that's the right thing I need to find out who the units belongs to, or if there isn't an unit in map_location "to"
20120413 22:13:23< Crab_> check src/ai/actions.cpp, attack_result::do_check_before()
20120413 22:15:00< Crab_> in particular, const unit_map::const_iterator attacker = resources::units->find(attacker_loc_);  and then, after checking for not finding the unit (  if(attacker==resources::units->end()) ),    check with  something like  attacker->side()!=get_side()
20120413 22:15:27< Crab_> that's the code for ai actions, btw - if you have an ai action, you can ask it to check if it's valid to do it.
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20120413 22:21:42< Teugon> Crab_: 'bout the shared pointer, before u came up It was ok with a [given_object_pointer].reset(). I'm not so friendly with C++ so, here the newbie question: I'm declaring a variable of type move_result_ptr inside a for loop.
20120413 22:21:43< Teugon> on each following iterations of the for loop the previous variable goes out of scope AND i'm not storing any pointer to it, is its destructor called?  
20120413 22:22:02< Crab_> yes
20120413 22:23:09< Teugon> Crab_: good, so I can delete that .reset.
20120413 22:23:43< Crab_> e.g. if you write  class Foo { public: ~Foo() { std::cerr << "Destructor called"; } }; and put    'Foo bar;'  inside the loop, it will go out-of-scope at the end of each iteration and you would get the message on stderr.
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20120413 22:24:29< Crab_> Teugon: and, shared_ptr's destructor decrements the counter and calls delete if it becomes 0. note that you can check the boost sources yourself, they're available (but they can be funny in some places);
20120413 22:25:04< Crab_> Teugon: generally, a well-written C++ code would have no delete or delete[] outside of destructors or functions-that-are-called-from-destructors.
20120413 22:25:36< Crab_> Teugon: some form of scoped_ptr is usually used when there should be only 1 'owner' of any object
20120413 22:27:12< Crab_> major reason is that it's quite hard to screw up if you follow the rules - delete gets called for you on exceptions/return statements/etc
20120413 22:28:57< Crab_> boost also has stuff like boost::pointer_vector (I think we don't use it in wesnoth yet, preferring to use vectors of shared pointers instead.)
20120413 22:29:33< Crab_> shared_pointer is better when you can't find a real owner, or if you don't care enough to find a real owner of the object.
20120413 22:47:46< jamit> Crab_: Is there any particular large map you like (for measuring AI speed)?
20120413 22:48:05< Crab_> NR: Showdown (commonly known as NR:Slowdown )
20120413 22:48:29< Crab_> the last map of northern rebirth, after 2-3 turns have passed with player recruiting a sizeable army, as well.
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20120413 23:17:26< mattsc> jamit, sorry for running off like that earlier.  I was already late for something.
20120413 23:18:25< jamit> No worries. I figured you would check the log when you got back.
20120413 23:19:18< mattsc> Just to add a comment: I always try to start by trying to keep those things as simple as possible.  Then, through play testing, especially by others, I'll try to figure out what needs to be improved, and what is unnecessary because it might over complicate things for almost no improvement.
20120413 23:19:52< mattsc> So, please keep the comments coming, because that's the best way for me to figure out what needs to be done.
20120413 23:20:44< mattsc> As I said, this discussion of the last few days has already made me write bits of code that will help with some of my other projects.
20120413 23:22:59< jamit> Two things I thought of after the above.
20120413 23:23:47< jamit> 1) There should probably not be a big focus on getting out of a particular scenario, since an improved AI might be able to avoid that scenario completely.
20120413 23:24:19< jamit> "scenario" meaning small-scale, like what was in the screenshot, not "scenario" as part of a campaign.
20120413 23:25:29< jamit> 2) A simple way to factor in unit's movement might be to redefine the d_m and d_e_i in your formula by dividing each of them by the appropriate unit's maximum movement.
20120413 23:26:00< jamit> This probably would not help once the pursuit gets close, but it might help to keep them at a distance.
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20120413 23:26:09< jamit> Or it might do nothing.
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20120413 23:27:07< mattsc> jamit: on 1) I agree with this statement in general.  The funny thing about this specifically is actually that the "imrpovement" I made to the AI was specifically to get it _into_ that scenario.
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20120413 23:28:10< mattsc> As in, yesterday we had discussed the messenger taking detours through the forest when it might be able to punch its way through.  But, after implementing it, it turned out that this weakens performance more often than not.
20120413 23:29:22< jamit> How likely is it for the opponent to have such perfectly positioned units?
20120413 23:30:00< mattsc> Not very likely, but you encounter formations that have essentially the same effect quite frequently.
20120413 23:31:05< mattsc> The original code had simply cost_optimistic_path < cost_possible_path (without the +4), and then it would take the optimistic path a lot; and in most cases this was not good.
20120413 23:31:51< jamit> I also see a judgment call here -- whose responsibility should it be to make that scenario beatable by the AI -- the AI's decisions, or the scenario designer giving the opposition units that are easier to punch through?
20120413 23:32:53< jamit> Even when keeping the AI implementation simple, the design process never is simple. :)
20120413 23:33:34< mattsc> Well, in the end it's the scenario designer.  But we should give that poor fellow as good as starting position as possible.  :)
20120413 23:35:01< mattsc> As you have probably noticed, I am putting the scenarios in AI-Demos together not to be interesting from a player's point of view, but to be test cases of what is possible.
20120413 23:35:57< mattsc> And they are all rather specialized behaviors that you would dial in and customize for specific situations.  None of them would stand a chance against the default AI on an "average map".
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20120413 23:38:09< mattsc> Anyway, on your point 2), I am not sure whether that is the way to go here, since the purpose of that equation is simply to find a location that is "in between" units.  But, along those lines, I should probably only take enemy units into account that canactually reach the messenger.
20120413 23:38:25< mattsc> What you suggest might come in handy in other situations though.
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--- Log closed Sat Apr 14 00:00:37 2012