--- Log opened Tue Apr 24 00:00:57 2012
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20120424 00:07:52< boucman> Ok, good night everybody
20120424 00:07:57< fendrin_> boucman: bye
20120424 00:08:20< boucman> bloodycoin: mail/ping me once your repo is uploaded, i'll be around tomorow daytime, an late in the evening
20120424 00:09:45< fendrin_> shadowm: is another dependency on a sdl part a problem? I mean sdl comes in a bundle thus we can assume sdl_gfx to be available where sdl is available.
20120424 00:10:25< fendrin_> I want to avoid reinventing he wheel.
20120424 00:10:34< fendrin_> s/he/the
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20120424 00:11:30< fendrin_> And since I want to rotate a sdl surface and sdl_gfx is able to do exactly that...
20120424 00:17:12< shadowm> fendrin_: It'd be saner to replicate the algorithm in Wesnoth instead since that's presumably all we will be using.
20120424 00:17:20< shadowm> I don't even know what this is for.
20120424 00:17:50< shadowm> And in general, new dependencies should be discussed in the mailing list, not here.
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20120424 00:19:14< fendrin_> shadowm: Well, taking the code from image magic might be possible, checking the license...
20120424 00:19:57< shadowm> You keep evading the most essential point.
20120424 00:20:01< shadowm> What is this for?
20120424 00:20:43< fendrin_> shadowm: You told me to implement a rotating function to the image path code, just yesterday, remember?
20120424 00:20:51< shadowm> No, I didn't tell you to do that.
20120424 00:21:00< shadowm> I just said it's something that's been in my mind for a while.
20120424 00:22:25< fendrin_> <shadowm> That said, if you do implement such I'd welcome that and I'd gladly implement a matching image path function.
20120424 00:22:26< shadowm> The thing is that it's not important enough to warrant a new dependency for a single function.
20120424 00:22:41< shadowm> Yeah, notice the 'if' in that sentence.
20120424 00:23:22< fendrin_> Agreed, I am going to check if there is something else in sdl_gfx we could need, which I doubt. 
20120424 00:23:28< shadowm> What I meant that should you implement a rotation transform for your own purposes I'd gladly implement a matching IPF, and that's not the same as telling you/commanding you to do so. :p
20120424 00:23:55< fendrin_> Sure, I did not feel commanded or forced, no problem.
20120424 00:24:18< shadowm> I think sdl_gfx mostly implements drawing primitives; Wesnoth is a heavy blitter more than anything.
20120424 00:25:01< shadowm> (my memory isn't that reliable and I checked sdl_gfx about 6 years ago)
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20120424 00:26:24< fendrin_> I am still a little concerned about the order of the image transformations, if the team color is applied after the image path function I end up with the same problem.
20120424 00:28:48< shadowm> RC/TC/PAL appear to be applied before anything else
20120424 00:29:37< shadowm> that's what image_modifications.hpp:115 suggests, anyway, and it's what I had originally ensured before someone else refactored everything
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20120424 00:34:13< shadowm> I'm also personally interested in HSL transforms, but that might be something I would enjoy researching myself to actually learn.
20120424 00:35:42< shadowm> but of course a certain gui2 developer isn't the only one with a kilometric to-do list.
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20120424 00:39:40< fabi> shadowm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_scaling#RotSprite
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20120424 01:39:39< jamit> mordante: First off, I apologize for the function name. It needed a name, but that was not my priority.
20120424 01:40:05< jamit> The context for it would be sdl_utils.cpp, from where I copied a bunch of the code.
20120424 01:40:34< jamit> What it does depends on which declaration of dst_index is not commented.
20120424 01:41:57< jamit> The first causes an image to be flipped along the upper-left to lower-right diagonal. This is equivalent to a 90-degree rotation plus either a horizontal or vertical flip (depending on which you do first).
20120424 01:42:39< jamit> The second does the flip along the other diagonal (bottom-left to upper right).
20120424 01:42:56< jamit> The third causes the image to be rotated 90 degrees counter-clockwise.
20120424 01:43:08< jamit> The fourth causes the image to be rotated 90 degrees clockwise.
20120424 01:44:04< jamit> Combining any one of these options with the correct (existing) image functions gives the other three as well, so technically only one is needed.
20120424 01:44:24< jamit> But I didn't know which would be best to implement, so I did them all. :)
20120424 01:45:04< jamit> The simplest code is the first flip, but the two rotations might be easier for users to visualize.
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20120424 01:46:42< jamit> I cannot stay on IRC right now, but I will check the log if you have more questions. And tomorrow I might be on earlier, to overlap with your times.
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20120424 02:55:46< ejls_> gabba: Hi dear mentor. Do you want some cofee?
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20120424 02:59:57< Espreon> Hmmmm, I see we're sucking up now
20120424 03:00:09< Espreon> ejls: Get me some tea and crumpets, pronto.
20120424 03:00:26< Espreon> ... oh, and cucumber sandwiches.
20120424 03:02:00< ejls> Of course master.
20120424 03:02:18< Espreon> I thank you, humble servant.
20120424 03:30:12< shadowm> This is so wrong, and yet so entertaining.
20120424 03:37:19< vultraz> hehe
20120424 03:42:20< vultraz> WHAT!!! I take a screenshot of my map with the built in function and it's 24 mb O_o
20120424 03:42:40< shadowm> because the output is in the window bitmap format
20120424 03:43:01< shadowm> *Windows
20120424 03:43:18< vultraz> why can't it use png or jpg
20120424 03:43:33< shadowm> because we'd need to implement a png writer ourselves
20120424 03:43:53< shadowm> and no, it shouldn't use jpeg
20120424 03:44:13< vultraz> ugh...
20120424 03:44:24< shadowm> to elaborate: SDL has a function to write a surface to a bmp file, but that's all it has.
20120424 03:44:24< vultraz> screenshot is useless at the size
20120424 03:44:31< shadowm> no, it isn't useless.
20120424 03:44:45< shadowm> you can use the GIMP, IM or something to convert it to the desired format
20120424 03:45:16< shadowm> Photoshop too, but that's something you would know if you owned a copy of Photoshop
20120424 03:46:27< shadowm> i.e. I shouldn't need to tell you this.
20120424 03:48:30< vultraz> and I was just wondering why the function was hidden so well
20120424 03:48:33< vultraz> :P
20120424 03:52:34< vultraz> ugh
20120424 03:52:48< vultraz> saving it as png only reduces the size to 17 mb
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20120424 03:56:03< AI0867> shadowm: frogatto has a png writer, could we port that?
20120424 03:58:46< vultraz> there..jpeg got it down to 1.3mb
20120424 04:00:52< AI0867> and terrible quality I assume
20120424 04:02:29< vultraz> yeah, quality is down, but I only need it for a map opinion
20120424 04:04:55< shadowm> AI0867: no idea, since they use the GPL v3 or later and we use GPL v2 or later
20120424 04:05:45< shadowm> meaning we can't really mix GPL v3+ code 
20120424 04:05:50< AI0867> poking sirp would probably fix that
20120424 04:06:12< shadowm> yeah, I'm sure he'd license it under any terms if necessary
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20120424 04:07:08< shadowm> aybe even dwtfywtpl
20120424 04:07:12< shadowm> *maybe
20120424 04:07:21< AI0867> short version wtfpl
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20120424 04:07:33< vultraz> hehe
20120424 04:07:57< shadowm> and yes, it's real
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20120424 04:13:59< shadowm> Although I think I found a major flaw in the wtfpl.
20120424 04:16:34< Espreon> Yes?
20120424 04:17:24< shadowm> "Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim or modified copies of this license document"
20120424 04:17:33< shadowm> Notice this statement allows distributing modified copies of the license document.
20120424 04:17:58< shadowm> It is then followed by a comma, implying an alternative, and the following statement:
20120424 04:18:03< shadowm> "and changing it is allowed as long as the name is changed."
20120424 04:18:52< shadowm> The language isn't formal enough in this case, which leads to ambiguity.
20120424 04:19:08< shadowm> Is a modified copy (as opposed to a copy that has been 'changed') also bound by the second statement?
20120424 04:19:57< shadowm> Furthermore, what kind of changes qualify for the second statement?
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20120424 04:28:18< Brilliand> Currently units don't refresh during the first turn of the game
20120424 04:28:29< Brilliand> This can look odd if a unit is poisoned before its first turn
20120424 04:29:07< Brilliand> I'm thinking of changing that, but it looks intentional enough that I should check with the old hands.
20120424 04:29:53< shadowm> Refresh as in the turn refresh WML event?
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20120424 04:30:11< Brilliand> No, as in what happens between "new turn" and "turn refresh"
20120424 04:30:23< Brilliand> Poison damage, healing, etc.
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20120424 04:30:44< Brilliand> Also removal of objects with "duration=turn", which is how this came to my attention.
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20120424 04:31:39< Brilliand> Apparently "new turn" and "turn refresh" do fire on the first turn, but basically nothing happens in between.
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20120424 04:56:03< CIA-69> brilliand * r53985 /trunk/src/play_controller.cpp: 
20120424 04:56:03< CIA-69> Made turn refresh (healing, poison, etc.) occur on first turn of game
20120424 04:56:03< CIA-69> Fix for bug #19656
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20120424 05:04:14< CIA-69> brilliand * r53986 /trunk/data/campaigns/Dead_Water/scenarios/ (01_Invasion.cfg 09_The_Mage.cfg): 
20120424 05:04:14< CIA-69> Changed uses of "ai turn" to "side # turn" in Dead Water
20120424 05:04:14< CIA-69> ("[event]name=ai turn" breaks replays)
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20120424 05:30:29< CIA-69> brilliand * r53987 /trunk/changelog: Added changelog entries for r53985 and r53986
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20120424 06:07:30< zookeeper> brilliand, well, now for instance damaged units sitting on a village or next to a healer at scenario start will get healed on turn 1
20120424 06:08:08< zookeeper> it's debatable whether that's good or not
20120424 06:08:50< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53988 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/utils/deaths.cfg: remove reference to Moradin (is god of Dwarves in D&D Forgotten Realms so possibly copyright issue)
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20120424 06:40:39< CIA-69> alarantalara * r53989 /branches/1.10/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/utils/deaths.cfg: backport r53988 to 1.10
20120424 06:42:40< Alarantalara>  Ivanovic: the above commits only remove a string, they don't change any, so there should be no issue from a translation standpoint
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20120424 07:49:50-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 164 bugs, 330 feature requests, 16 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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--- Log opened Tue Apr 24 09:55:45 2012
20120424 09:55:57-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120424 09:55:57-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: 164 bugs, 330 feature requests, 16 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120424 09:55:57-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@wesnoth/bot/wesbot] [Tue Apr 24 07:49:49 2012]
20120424 09:55:57[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20120424 09:55:57[ _vdn           ] [ elias     ] [ iwaim      ] [ shikadibot] 
20120424 09:55:57[ AI0867         ] [ eregon    ] [ janebot    ] [ Smar      ] 
20120424 09:55:57[ Akihara        ] [ erl       ] [ koan       ] [ Tigge     ] 
20120424 09:55:57[ ancestral      ] [ Espreon   ] [ leonid     ] [ Upthorn   ] 
20120424 09:55:57[ apoi           ] [ fendrin_  ] [ lobby      ] [ vcap_     ] 
20120424 09:55:57[ bloodycoin     ] [ gabba     ] [ loonycyborg] [ vultraz   ] 
20120424 09:55:57[ chpln_         ] [ happygrue ] [ LordNasty  ] [ wesbot    ] 
20120424 09:55:57[ ChrisOelmueller] [ ianto_    ] [ LovAFK     ] [ worduk    ] 
20120424 09:55:57[ CIA-69         ] [ Ingeniumed] [ melinath   ] [ yann      ] 
20120424 09:55:57[ Crendgrim      ] [ Ingmar    ] [ noy        ] [ zookeeper ] 
20120424 09:55:57[ crimson_penguin] [ isaac     ] [ Rhonda     ] [ {V}       ] 
20120424 09:55:57[ ejls           ] [ Ivanovic  ] [ shadowm    ] 
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20120424 09:56:14-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
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20120424 15:08:56< trademark_> Hello, is someone have the email of noy, please ?
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20120424 15:12:31< boucman_mobile> Gimme à sec
20120424 15:14:05< boucman_mobile> Neuhausercova at gmail
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20120424 15:22:59< trademark_> boucman_mobile, thank you :)
20120424 15:23:20< boucman_mobile> Np
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20120424 15:52:49< gabba> ejls: around?
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20120424 16:14:03< mattsc> Hi, Crab_
20120424 16:14:07< Crab_> hi
20120424 16:14:54< mattsc> I have another question concerning candidate actions.  Do you consider it "bad style" to set up a CA so that using it finishes by black-listing it?
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20120424 16:16:14< mattsc> Specifically, I have this CA that sets up defensive formations.  It's a pretty long computation and you don't know until the end whether it makes sense to add another formation.
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20120424 16:17:31< Crab_> it is used
20120424 16:17:36< Crab_> it is slightly bad style
20120424 16:17:36< mattsc> I could put this into the eval fucntion, but then the computation would have to be done for every move (of any kind).  Instead, I currently have it in the exec, and when no more valid move is found, it doesn't do anything and gets blacklisted.  Works fine, but should I avoid this for some reason?
20120424 16:18:21< mattsc> ok, that was my feeling as well.  Right now I am more concerned about getting things to work.  I'll worry about style later.
20120424 16:18:21< Crab_> basically, you should move some checks to evaluate if they are cheap
20120424 16:18:29< Crab_> i.e., see how recruitment does it
20120424 16:18:46< Crab_> it checks some basics like leader on keep, some gold, free space in keep
20120424 16:18:53< mattsc> yes, that's how I do it in general, but for this particular CA I cannot see a way of doing that.
20120424 16:19:18< Crab_> but, actual recruitment routines usually end by blacklisting themselves if there's nothing useful that can be recruited.
20120424 16:19:39< Crab_> the problem here is that if we have situations A and B
20120424 16:19:46< Crab_> and in A, move is not good
20120424 16:19:49< Crab_> but, in B, move is good
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20120424 16:20:04< Crab_> if you evalute your ca to 'good value' in A, you'll blacklist it too early
20120424 16:20:25< Crab_> and, if after a few moves, later in the turn, A becomes B, your ca is out of luck
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20120424 16:20:35< Crab_> mattsc: that's the only problem here
20120424 16:21:03< mattsc> yeah, I've thought of that too (the A vs. B thing).  Currently this is not needed, but it might become an issue later.
20120424 16:21:49< mattsc> Thanks, Crab_, you've confirmed what I was thinking about it.  I'll continue for now the way I am doing it, and once I have all the functionality together, I'll worry about making it cleaner.
20120424 16:22:43< mattsc> As I said, right now I cannot come up with a way of checking whether the move is possible that is not very expensive.
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20120424 16:39:53< Pyrophorus> Hi !
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20120424 16:43:34< Crab_> Pyrophorus: hello
20120424 16:44:57< Pyrophorus> crab: hello, I'm actually trying to contact fendrin about this [censored] random map generator.
20120424 16:52:07< boucman_mobile> wesbot: seen fendrin_
20120424 16:52:07< wesbot> boucman_mobile: Queried user last spoke 16h 25m ago.  fendrin_ is currently here and on the channels #wesnoth, #wesnoth-de and #wesnoth-umc-dev.
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20120424 17:44:50< ejls> gabba: Hey!
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20120424 17:48:35< gabba> hey ejls
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20120424 17:54:34< ejls> gabba: So, I suppose I should start to fix inconsistencies? Like unit referencing?
20120424 17:55:22< gabba> ejls: did you get my email?
20120424 17:56:04< ejls> Not yet, wait.
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20120424 18:01:52< ejls> Ok, sounds good. Except for the wednesday meeting, I'm at the university around 18h CEST.
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20120424 18:02:41< ejls> And actually, I can be on IRC around 1-2 a.m., it's not a problem.
20120424 18:03:05< gabba> really, he he :D
20120424 18:03:28< gabba> out for lunch, I'll be afk for about an hour
20120424 18:03:46< ejls> Well, maybe not 7 days a week. :)
20120424 18:03:54< ejls> Ok, see you.
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20120424 18:45:36< mordante> servus
20120424 18:47:11< Ivanovic> hi everybody, hi mordante
20120424 18:47:16< mordante> fendrin_, why do we need a rotate function and for which angles?
20120424 18:47:21< Ivanovic> congratulations to all accepted students!
20120424 18:47:22< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20120424 18:48:35< fendrin_> hi mordante
20120424 18:48:43< mordante> hi fendrin_ 
20120424 18:49:20< fendrin_> mordante: I think I need ~62° since this is the angel between north facing and nw facing in Wesnoth.
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20120424 18:49:32< mordante> fendrin_, for what?
20120424 18:50:13< fendrin_> mordante: The reason is, that the faction I am working on has top down images. This means I have only a north facing image, but I can rotate and flip it to match the other facings since 
20120424 18:50:38< fendrin_> ... that doesn't hurt if a sprite is seen from the above.
20120424 18:51:11< fendrin_> s/angel/angle
20120424 18:51:24< mordante> the problem I see is that the artists are heavily against rotating their sprites
20120424 18:51:54< mordante> if we have the functionality in the code people might use it on sprites and annoying our artists
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20120424 18:52:31< mordante> why not rotate them outside Wesnoth with something like the Gimp and use a WML macro to create all views in the unit defintion
20120424 18:52:57< Espreon> We shouldn't have to limit things to cater to their frivolous desires.®
20120424 18:53:03< mordante> it also saves us from finding a _good_ rotation algorithm
20120424 18:53:28< mordante> Espreon, our artists prefer to redraw a unit instead of rotating
20120424 18:53:39< fendrin_> mordante: because rotation shifts the colors thus team colorisation doesn't match anymore.
20120424 18:54:48< Espreon> mordante: Perhaps those who aren't our artists would prefer to rotate instead.
20120424 18:55:27< mordante> so we should cater your frivolous desires :-|
20120424 18:55:48< gabba> back
20120424 18:55:48< Pyrophorus> fendrin: for some reasons, I can't stay often on IRC. I PM you on the forum. Hi all an goodbye...
20120424 18:55:58< gabba> ejls: back
20120424 18:56:07< mordante> jamit it would be easier to create a function that can do all 90° degree rotations will also be faster to process
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20120424 18:57:14< Espreon> mordante: Honestly, I don't need such features. I just hate people limiting things because of the frivolous desires of... certain people.
20120424 18:58:31< mordante> Espreon, the only question is who has the frivolous desire?
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20120424 18:58:54< mordante> also we coded several features just because it made the artists happy
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20120424 18:59:22< fendrin> mordante: I have found an external tool which is made for especially my purpose. It rotates sprites using the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_scaling#RotSprite algorithm/method.
20120424 18:59:33< Espreon> Since I'm not part of the artist elite, I'll just go back into the cave and stare at the shadows, OK? OK.
20120424 18:59:35< fendrin> This one does not shift the colors.
20120424 18:59:44< mordante> and to be honest they are the once that make the art, which, _I believe_, is a big reason for the success of Wesnoth
20120424 18:59:45< Espreon> ... much easier.
20120424 18:59:59< shadowm> We can already do far worse things with art using image path functions.
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20120424 19:01:10< mordante> fendrin, if that external tool exists then why do we still need it in Wesnoth :-/ 
20120424 19:01:14< Espreon> mordante: If people want to be able to mutilate images in-game by rotating them, they should be able to do that.
20120424 19:01:31< Espreon> mordante: ... because having to make more images sucks.
20120424 19:01:42< fendrin> But it has some problems: 1) It's a gui tool, but I need to process huge amounts of sprites, thus I want to script it. 2) It replaces transparency with white background. 3) It creates on the new areas a black background (if you think about it, a rotate sprite is bigger than the original one, except when rotated by multiplies of 90°)
20120424 19:01:52< fendrin> mordante: ^ 
20120424 19:02:12< fendrin> 4) It produces more sprites to maintain which also waste space.
20120424 19:02:58< fendrin> mordante: But I do not really need to have it inside of Wesnoth. If rotating is not wanted I can live happily with duplicating the sprites externally.
20120424 19:03:27< mordante> Espreon, might be, but that still doesn't answer the question whose frivolous needs we need to cater
20120424 19:03:53< mordante> I prefer to keep it out of Wesnoth
20120424 19:04:01< Espreon> Who said we can't cater to others' desires out of the kindness of our hearts?
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20120424 19:05:37< mordante> still doesn't answer whose desires? I you cater my desires there will be no rotation function
20120424 19:05:51< fendrin> Espreon: shadowm also showed some interest in rotating functions.
20120424 19:05:51< Espreon> Um, I don't understand.
20120424 19:05:54< Espreon> mordante: ^
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20120424 19:06:37< mordante> they question is whose desires do we need to cater
20120424 19:06:51< fendrin> mine :-)
20120424 19:07:13< mordante> AI0867, shadowm, Wesnoth also has a png writer
20120424 19:07:34< mordante> it's used in the various tools
20120424 19:07:50< Espreon> mordante: To those who need stuff... I dunno...
20120424 19:07:56< shadowm> Strange that no-one has made the screenshot functions use it then.
20120424 19:08:28< fendrin> AI0867 was involved in the discussion as well? Or did he create the png writer?
20120424 19:08:32< mordante> maybe the one who created that feature was not aware of it
20120424 19:08:55< shadowm> Hopefully someone who is will be able to do so now then!
20120424 19:09:09< mordante> fendrin, it's used in the cutter tool, long predating AI's involvement in Wesnoth
20120424 19:09:24< fendrin> Okay, then why was AI0867 named?
20120424 19:09:41< mordante> and I never used the screenshot feature, so was not aware it used
20120424 19:09:55< mordante> fendrin, it was regarding whether he created the png writer
20120424 19:13:14< fendrin> There is another reason for having the function inside of Wesnoth. 
20120424 19:13:28< fendrin> If it is inside of Wesnoth you can use the better algorithm.
20120424 19:14:18< fendrin> Team coloring can be applied first, then the rotation is done, which can make use of the better result producing algos which shifts the colors.
20120424 19:14:55< mordante> afk brb
20120424 19:20:26< zookeeper> sure we can cater to all sorts of desires, but a genuinely good reason would be nice. making it _easier_ for someone to make and maintain sprites for an era which might or might not ever be completed doesn't really count as one, if you ask me.
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20120424 19:28:21< fendrin> zookeeper: shadowm had some use cases in mind, I described mine already.
20120424 19:30:27< shadowm> I'd be more interested in 90 deg multiple rotations.
20120424 19:30:56< fendrin> shadowm: Those are easy as piss, I will do them if you like.
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20120424 19:31:37< shadowm> I don't have an immediate need either since I don't remember why I had wanted to do those in the first place a while ago.
20120424 19:31:45< fendrin> :-)
20120424 19:31:53< shadowm> (And anyway, I'm not using 1.11.x for a good while yadda yadda; we've been over this before.)
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20120424 19:33:32< fendrin> hmmmm
20120424 19:34:33< fendrin> I might go with just east/west sprites, matching both horizontal directions, those can be produced by rotating at 90 degree.
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20120424 20:16:15< mordante> Akihara, around?
20120424 20:18:35< Akihara> mordante: yes
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20120424 20:19:09< fendrin> zookeeper: Is there a feature to modify the parent units stats? I mean, can I adjust the hp of a [base_unit] by adding 10 points to it somehow?
20120424 20:19:27< fendrin> hitpoints+= 10
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20120424 20:27:42< zookeeper> fendrin, not that i know of
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20120424 20:28:07< fendrin> zookeeper: Do you think it is useful?
20120424 20:28:37< zookeeper> i'm sure there's _some_ case where it might be useful
20120424 20:29:34< fendrin> Okay, there is the question of syntax.
20120424 20:29:36< zookeeper> but usually i don't think it should be much trouble to just set the hitpoints by hand... you know which unit you're inheriting from, after all
20120424 20:29:41< fendrin> hitpoints += 10
20120424 20:29:43< fendrin> could be one
20120424 20:29:56< fendrin> or hitpoints = hitpoints + 10
20120424 20:30:00< zookeeper> uh, we have formulas
20120424 20:30:34< fendrin> hmmm
20120424 20:30:36< fendrin> yeah
20120424 20:30:39< fendrin> And that means?
20120424 20:30:47< zookeeper> right. it means nothing, in this case :p
20120424 20:30:53< fendrin> :-)
20120424 20:31:17< fendrin> or just hitpoints = +10
20120424 20:32:22 * zookeeper shrugs
20120424 20:32:25< zookeeper> ugly special case syntax
20120424 20:33:44< zookeeper> what prevents you from just setting them by hand?
20120424 20:34:15< fendrin> I have some "mother classes" like well say "ranger".
20120424 20:34:33< fendrin> The child classes should inherit from "ranger" but be somehow special.
20120424 20:35:20< fendrin> I would like to be able to adjust all rangers with a single edit, thus the hitpoints and other attributes should be relational, not absolute.
20120424 20:36:13< fendrin> s/relational/relative
20120424 20:36:21< Crendgrim> fendrin: what about macros then?
20120424 20:36:47< fendrin> Yeah sure, can this be solved with macro use?
20120424 20:36:55< zookeeper> no
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20120424 20:39:55< Soliton> has r53985 been discussed?
20120424 20:40:22< mordante> Soliton, no idea
20120424 20:40:49< mordante> I think not, but there was something about it this evening
20120424 20:42:00< zookeeper> i doubt it
20120424 20:42:09< Soliton> it doesn't sound like a good idea since the previous state was quite deliberate afair.
20120424 20:42:33< zookeeper> yeah, i recall that it's very likely deliberate
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20120424 20:43:08< Soliton> and a tricky area with loading and replaying and what not all being slightly different.
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20120424 20:47:16< Soliton> i see income at least didn't change.
20120424 20:48:37< mordante> Upthorn, congrats with your GSoC acceptance
20120424 20:48:47< fendrin> Zerovirus created a replacement for the giant scorpion unit. http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=525249#p525249
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20120424 20:49:06< Upthorn> thanks mordante
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20120424 20:54:40< mordante> Upthorn, you're welcome, btw how often did you already join GSoC, IIRC quite often
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20120424 20:57:46< Upthorn> this is the third time
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20120424 20:58:10< mordante> nice job 
20120424 20:59:57< Upthorn> thanks :)
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20120424 21:13:53< mordante> I'm off night
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20120424 21:45:08< Soliton> Brilliand: re r53985: in the future please a) do not commit game mechanic changes without discussing them first (and waiting for some response ;-)) b) don't mix unrelated changes in one commit (doing healing calculations in the first turn has nothing to do with the bug fix)
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20120424 22:39:54< shadowm> Is this valid and supposed to work on 1.10: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AiWML#Limiting_Recruiting_with_the_.27recruitment.27_Aspect
20120424 22:40:08< shadowm> ... ? It seems my AI simply stops recruiting after turn 1.
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20120424 22:45:16< shadowm> Yep, definitely that's the case. It stops recruiting.
20120424 22:54:22< fendrin> zookeeper: Can I manipulate the [attacks] in the derived unit?
20120424 22:59:23< zookeeper> on some values of manipulate
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20120424 22:59:57< zookeeper> you can add new ones or change existing ones
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20120424 23:01:03< zookeeper> for example if you want to change the second attack to melee, you'd use [attack][/attack] [attack] range=melee [/attack]
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20120424 23:05:02< jamit> mordante: OK. So would that be something to commit? It sounded like shadowm was talking in theoretical terms, of something that might happen.
20120424 23:05:22< shadowm> Talking about what?
20120424 23:05:27< jamit> I just picked up on it because it looked like a good excuse to see how the image path functions are implemented.
20120424 23:05:45< jamit> shadowm: the 90-degree image rotations.
20120424 23:05:50< shadowm> Ah, I remember now.
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20120424 23:07:23< mattsc> shadowm: yes, I tested it in 1.10 and IIRC it worked as described
20120424 23:07:47< mattsc> Make sure you read the line above the code example.
20120424 23:07:47< jamit> mordante, shadowm: I consider what I wrote as a prototype. I could turn it into a rotation function, and even define the new image path function (the ~whatevers; I might have the name wrong) for it.
20120424 23:08:04< fendrin> zookeeper: Ah, I see. Thus I can change and add attributes. I can also add extra tags but I can not manipulate existing [specials] or delete them. Right? Can I delete an attack? 
20120424 23:08:59< shadowm> mattsc: I did.
20120424 23:09:19< jamit> mordante, shadowm: Just let me know what you want. (I think in this case, it's safe to say that whatever specs you come up with, I could implement easily enough.)
20120424 23:09:22< mattsc> shadowm, ah, no, I might misremember something.  Let me check.
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20120424 23:17:19< mattsc> shadowm, so I tested it and, umm, yes, it works as described, but ...
20120424 23:17:55< mattsc> Apparently the selection of recruits is still based on the whole recruit list.  So if your other units seems less desirable to the AI, it will not recruit them
20120424 23:18:37< mattsc> You can do a test by adding Pikeman to the recruit list with the example on the wiki page.  The AI will happily recruit pikemen after it's done with the swordsman and the 2 bowmen
20120424 23:18:51< mattsc> However, if you give it peasants, it will simply not recruit anything.
20120424 23:19:30< jamit> Smart AI?(Not recruiting peasants) :)
20120424 23:19:56< mattsc> jamit: recruiting peasants might be better than not recruiting.  ;)
20120424 23:20:26< mattsc> ... and it also doesn't recruit spearman on the map I tried it.
20120424 23:21:52< jamit> True. The example of preferring nothing to peasants just reminded me of certain human playstyles. People who would not lower themselves to recruiting something so lowly. :)
20120424 23:22:08< shadowm> Hm, IIRC there's a way to make the AI recruit anything regardless of-
20120424 23:22:11< jamit> It does sound like a real bug to me, for a serious evaluation.
20120424 23:22:22< shadowm> Well, I don't even understand what the AI does to choose recruits in the first place.
20120424 23:22:34< shadowm> All I know and have used so far is the recruitment_pattern aspect.
20120424 23:23:37< mattsc> shadowm: You can limit recruits of a certain type with {LIMIT_CONTEMPORANEOUS_RECRUITS } and other macros.
20120424 23:23:54< mattsc> Which are really just shortcuts to [allow_recruit] and [disallow_recruit].
20120424 23:24:54< mattsc> jamit: yes, my guess is that that's not the desired behavior.  Is Crab_ around?
20120424 23:33:01< shadowm> Yeah, I know of that macro. I kind of wanted to let the AI do the job by itself instead of influencing its decisions through event hacks.
20120424 23:33:47< shadowm> Another problem I'm facing as of late is AIs that play well at the beginning of a scenario and quickly run out of gold and don't recover enough to be effective before the player gets to their leaders because of the great upkeep costs.
20120424 23:35:44< shadowm> And I'm not sure what the best way to avoid this should be; I remember people have complained before about scenarios where WML events silently grant the AI(s) more gold. If I give them a permanent, extra base income instead, that could overpower them at the beginning and not really improve the situation at the end either.
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20120424 23:38:27< shadowm> I guess I could give them a lot of gold and provide them with a smaller amount of castle hexes to recruit on so they don't run out of gold as quickly too.
20120424 23:38:40< jamit> In a scenario I'm creating, I was toying with the idea of giving the AI orcs the "great horde" ability from SotBE. Mostly so that they don't get hit so hard by upkeep costs.
20120424 23:38:43< mattsc> It probably depends on the map situation.  Giving them a smaller keep or more villages might work sometimes.  Or forcing every other recruited unit to be loyal or something.  That latter's definitely a "dirty trick" though.
20120424 23:39:37< shadowm> Giving them more villages tends to work in favor of the player at the end since they can either milk income this way or take advantage of the victory bonus.
20120424 23:39:50< mattsc> true
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20120424 23:40:23< mattsc> You could limit the total number of recruits for the AI as well.
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20120424 23:41:15< shadowm> I guess I could try that; I hadn't thought of it, frankly.
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20120424 23:43:24< shadowm> Now it seems like the obvious thing to try.
20120424 23:44:39< boucman> hey all
20120424 23:44:51< boucman> bloodycoin: could you give me your repo address so I can clone it ?
20120424 23:45:35< bloodycoin> https://bitbucket.org/justas_tomkus/wesnoth-particles/src
20120424 23:46:47< boucman> thx
20120424 23:47:04< bloodycoin> np, haven't modified anything yet though
20120424 23:47:39< boucman> no prob, 
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--- Log closed Wed Apr 25 00:00:32 2012