--- Log opened Fri Apr 27 00:00:38 2012
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20120427 00:15:53< ancestral> Thanks, that helps
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20120427 00:35:21< gabba> ejls: I'm around if you want to meet (i.e. elaborate evil plans, of course)
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20120427 01:35:46< luckydog94> Just so you know the regular files of the (lib)boost libraries weren't sufficient, I had to use the -dev versions.
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20120427 09:27:12< shadowm> is gna.org's mailer broken, or just the CIA hook? (CIA works fine for other projects)
20120427 09:29:39< shadowm> okay, looks like the mailer has been broken for two days
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20120427 10:02:21< timotei> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9He5WiWZRk
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20120427 14:51:21< boucman> hey all
20120427 14:51:24< boucman> bloodycoin: around ?
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20120427 15:12:13< bloodycoin> yes, but still in the lecture at the moment
20120427 15:12:28< bloodycoin> I should be free in an hour, if it's ok with you
20120427 15:12:51< boucman> fine, ping me then...
20120427 15:13:36< bloodycoin> ok
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20120427 15:43:37< anonymissimus> Gabba: well, looks like we should add that dll ;)
20120427 15:44:26< anonymissimus> better ask timotei; I almost never build in release with MSVC
20120427 15:46:01< anonymissimus> fendrin: my computer broke; you were asking for me ?
20120427 15:46:15< anonymissimus> wesbot: seen fendrin
20120427 15:46:15< wesbot> anonymissimus: The person with the nick fendrin last spoke 19h 24m ago.  7h 5m ago was here and on the channels #wesnoth, #wesnoth-de and #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: Quit: Konversation terminated!
20120427 15:49:04< anonymissimus> fendrin: btw; as for your "dev  wesnoth with eclipse on Linux tips", I could use them now :)
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20120427 16:08:50< bloodycoin> boucman: what should I do about license at the top of files? Should I just copy from any other file and change name to mine?
20120427 16:10:05< boucman> yes, that's fine
20120427 16:10:13< bloodycoin> and what about year?
20120427 16:10:21< boucman> use current year
20120427 16:10:34< bloodycoin> current year only?
20120427 16:10:51< boucman> we update them evry new year iirc
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20120427 16:23:06< bloodycoin> boucman: pushed bare particle engine skeleton to repo. awaiting comments :)
20120427 16:23:56< boucman> k, pulling
20120427 16:25:21< boucman> bloodycoin: first comment, when you add a faile, you should also add it to cmake, not just scons
20120427 16:26:48< bloodycoin> oww... sorry... forgot..
20120427 16:26:56< boucman> np, that's why i'm here :)
20120427 16:27:13< boucman> so, at this point your PE is basically the one in your proposal
20120427 16:28:00< boucman> as a first big step, I'm not interested in managing particles, their color or even their movement, I'd be more interested in the part that actually do the drawing
20120427 16:28:40< boucman> so if you could code a single hard-wired particle that we could use to do all the interfacing with the drawing engine, I think that would be a good first step
20120427 16:28:46< boucman> agreed ?
20120427 16:30:03< bloodycoin> true, I only made those particle params to keep the structure. Yes, I agree that one (or few) harcoded particles are enough for now
20120427 16:31:20< boucman> you can leave what's in place or remove I don't mind (with git we can always get it back) but a single particle moving in straight line across the screen would be a good first step
20120427 16:31:44< boucman> could you code that as a next step (not the calls to the engine, the dummy particle that is) 
20120427 16:34:44< boucman> actually here is a class structure I could imagine, tell me what you think
20120427 16:35:04< boucman> PE would deal only with particles, the idea of effect as it currently is would disapear
20120427 16:35:20< boucman> so PE would have methods like add_particle, mreove particle
20120427 16:35:46< boucman> particle would be a virtual class whose main method would be draw(time) 
20120427 16:36:12< boucman> then you would add a test_particle that inherits form particle and would implement a hardwired draw() that would draw the particle according to time
20120427 16:36:28< boucman> that structure would be good enough for testing and a good start for the real thing
20120427 16:36:33< boucman> ok with that ?
20120427 16:37:10< bloodycoin> But this structure is only for testing, and drawing particles, right?
20120427 16:37:40< bloodycoin> because in real case scenario adding particles one by one would be very painful
20120427 16:38:54< boucman> hmm
20120427 16:39:13< boucman> ok, same plan, but with a small change :)
20120427 16:39:57< boucman> instead of handling particles, the PE handles particle_set classes :) 
20120427 16:40:40< boucman> these classes still all have a common virtual ancestor, only have a draw() method, but can implement multiple paricles (the test one would only have one) it's up to them
20120427 16:41:09< bloodycoin> and "particle_set" in your terminology equals "effect" in my terminology :)
20120427 16:41:17< boucman> :)
20120427 16:41:49< boucman> ok, sorry, I fell stupid now :P
20120427 16:41:54< boucman> I read your code a bit too fast
20120427 16:42:47< boucman> I was confused by the fact that you coded effect as a struct and not as a class, which is wired in my brain to mean "a grouping of parameters" and not "an object"
20120427 16:42:54< bloodycoin> np... I mean I think that's what I was basicaly trying to do: particle_engine manages effects and effects contain particles
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20120427 16:44:04< boucman> ok, so what is the next step, and how much time do you have available (vs exams) in the coming week ?
20120427 16:44:44< bloodycoin> Well, yes, I intended to let effect only be a struct containing particles and let part_engine call particle.draw(time) contained in effect
20120427 16:45:41< boucman> if you say PE only call effects, and effects only call particles, you have better encapsulation, which in turn will give you more libery of movement in the future
20120427 16:46:14< boucman> for instance if at some point you want to implement an effect where the idea of particle doesn't really make sense, you can
20120427 16:46:36< boucman> or an effect where for some bizarre reason you don't want to always call "draw" for all particles
20120427 16:48:56< bloodycoin> hmm.... but what about the case, where I want to change effect, but reuse already created particles?
20120427 16:49:23< bloodycoin> Though, ok, I could pass particle list from one effect to another...
20120427 16:49:54< boucman> does that make sense in the first place ? what would you gain vs recreating them ?
20120427 16:51:00< bloodycoin> less mem allocation. also, particles would retain their original position, changing only how they move/ colors
20120427 16:51:58< boucman> hmm, we are thinking differently...
20120427 16:52:23< boucman> suppose I have a particle that has the followin order: "go straight for 50ms then turn right for 60ms"
20120427 16:52:44< boucman> you would put the particle in a first effect, then move it in a second effect ?
20120427 16:57:36< bloodycoin> no... lets say we one effect, which tells particle to move: x= sin(time) y = y + 5/time; and another one, which tells x = 10/time, y = cos(time)
20120427 16:58:56< bloodycoin> so particle being in 1st effect would oscillate around x axis and would go downwards. 
20120427 16:59:54< bloodycoin> changing effect to second, would force to go right, oscillating around y axis..
20120427 17:00:56< bloodycoin> my idea, that changing effects would not have to be restarted from their spawn point
20120427 17:02:00< boucman> hmm, so in your idea, particle contain the current state and effect how they change...
20120427 17:02:21< boucman> I need to reboot, bbiam, but i can see a couple problems with this idea
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20120427 17:05:47< bloodycoin> wb
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20120427 17:06:40< boucman> and bac
20120427 17:06:46< bloodycoin> wb
20120427 17:07:57< bloodycoin> yes, particles contain their state, and effect structure contains data on how particles should move, also , how many particle there should be for the effects, their spawn point..
20120427 17:08:17< boucman> so the thing is that it locks the effect<=>particle interface a lot, which might brings problems if we have multiple types of particles
20120427 17:10:06< bloodycoin> hmm... do we want multiple types of particles?
20120427 17:10:20< boucman> single ppoint vs moving images
20120427 17:10:57< bloodycoin> oh, I would say... just add bool to effect struct defining if it's pixel or image
20120427 17:11:13< bloodycoin> and forbid to mix between pixel and image types
20120427 17:11:58< boucman> ok, so particles are a fixed structure that is "frozen" but effects can be reimplemented to do all sort of stuff, but should be able to share particles with other effects ?
20120427 17:13:17< bloodycoin> yes... But by sharing particles it's not that eff1 gives 3 particles to eff2 and 4 particles to eff5, if it gives particles away, it gives away whole set
20120427 17:15:38< bloodycoin> What do you mean by reimplementing effects, because I think that effect would be a description of how it's particle set would appear in game
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20120427 17:15:55< boucman> ok, so effects need to handle "particle sets" I start to understand where you're going
20120427 17:15:59< bloodycoin> With some methods to manage it's particle set
20120427 17:16:31< boucman> I mean : should effect be a virtual class which have multiple implementations for multiple effects, or not
20120427 17:18:29< bloodycoin> no, because it would mainly store data, and some methods which are the same to all particles...
20120427 17:18:32< bloodycoin> well... ok
20120427 17:19:06< bloodycoin> we would have to have at least 2 implementations of effect methods - one for pixel particles, other - for image ones
20120427 17:19:41< boucman> hmm, if you don't do it by inheritence (to have a lua_effect, a fire_effect etc...) where and in what format do you code the actual algo ?
20120427 17:21:04< bloodycoin> err... the actual algo of what? effects?
20120427 17:21:24< boucman> yes
20120427 17:21:33< boucman> the sin(x) we mentionned earlier
20120427 17:22:16< bloodycoin> effect would store function pointer to the function, of how the particle moves
20120427 17:22:52< bloodycoin> and when effect has to be displayed, it applies that function to all the particles in its' set
20120427 17:23:42< bloodycoin> on effect creation - you assign effect pointer to the function, describing how particles should be moving
20120427 17:23:52< boucman> hmm ok, I'm more useed to implement that sort of stuff with inheritence, but function pointers would work too (not that different once compiled :P )
20120427 17:25:37< bloodycoin> yea, and even though I have to write different function for each movement type, I can combine functions with effects however I want..
20120427 17:25:59< bloodycoin> well.... yea.... it's pretty much the same... :)
20120427 17:26:49< boucman> so, the fun pointer contains the "how to move" the particles contain the "current state" is there any info in the effect structure except the set of particle to be handled as a whole ?
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20120427 17:28:53< bloodycoin> effect also contains colors, spawn point for new particles, particle number limit for effect
20120427 17:29:28< boucman> hmm
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20120427 17:30:06< boucman> I am not sure it makes sense to separate particle movement from particle creation... these two seems highly tight, 
20120427 17:30:33< boucman> I mean it's the pair that makes the interesting effect, I don't think they would be much reuse of functions
20120427 17:30:47< boucman> tel, one sec
20120427 17:31:45< boucman> and there would be multiple effects for different creation algorithms, so I am not convinced separating the effect from the mvt functions make sense
20120427 17:32:51< boucman> what do you think ?
20120427 17:33:01< bloodycoin> thinking :)
20120427 17:33:31< boucman> :)
20120427 17:38:01< bloodycoin> yea... it's possible to do other way around :)
20120427 17:38:51< bloodycoin> I can't think of a good reason separate movement function
20120427 17:39:15< boucman> :)
20120427 17:39:30< boucman> anyway we got derailed from my original question (long time ago :P )
20120427 17:39:36< bloodycoin> I remember I had clear idea why I need function pointers when I was writing proposal...
20120427 17:39:53< boucman> so how much time do you have available next week, and what do you plan to do with it :D
20120427 17:40:02< bloodycoin> yep, and spammed irc channel xD
20120427 17:41:23< bloodycoin> I think I can manage about a dedicated daytime for wesnoth, maybe day and a half, but I will try to split it to few hours avery day
20120427 17:41:42< bloodycoin> s/avery/every
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20120427 17:42:22< boucman> ok, I will be without net access until wensday, in the mean time can you implement whatever is needed to do our "dummy particle" ? 
20120427 17:42:50< boucman> if you have extra time you can start looking at how it should interact with the drawing engine (both on the invalidation and drawing side of things)
20120427 17:44:15< bloodycoin> so for now a dummy particle which moves across the map
20120427 17:44:55< boucman> yes (unless you have another idea, but going across the map sounds like a good test case for a start)
20120427 17:47:56< bloodycoin> ok, I will try.. (and will succeed most likely) particle engine should be called from within *_controller:play_slice? or from display:draw for now?
20120427 17:48:27< boucman> display::draw would make more sense, it's not a game thing it's a drawing think
20120427 17:48:29< boucman> thing
20120427 17:49:38< bloodycoin> true... also regarding cmake: should I add particle_engine.cpp to "wesnoth-main_SRC" set or "libwesnoth-game_STAT_SRC" set?
20120427 17:49:53< bloodycoin> I don't quite see the difference ^^'
20120427 17:50:06< boucman> hmm, not sure, be consistent with what you did in scons
20120427 17:50:15< boucman> and I got to leave, see you later
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20120427 19:26:16< Ivanovic> hi
20120427 19:29:43< Espreon> 'Ello.
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20120427 19:35:24< anonymissimus> Espreon: I think you're using virtual box with win 7 in it ?
20120427 19:37:29< AI0867> wesbot: !seen brilliand
20120427 19:37:29< wesbot> AI0867: The person with the nick Brilliand last spoke 3d 15h ago.  2d 9h ago person left:
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20120427 20:14:55< mordante> servus
20120427 20:15:23-!- gabba_ [d8623925@wesnoth/developer/gabba] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120427 20:15:36< gabba_> Hi all
20120427 20:15:42< mordante> hi gabba_ 
20120427 20:17:31< mordante> shadowm, yeah I'm aware they were hidden in an obscure place ;-)
20120427 20:17:41< mordante> the png stuff
20120427 20:22:26< gabba_> ejls: around?
20120427 20:23:48-!- neph [~neph@b0fa3f89.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20120427 20:24:56< ejls> gabba_: yep
20120427 20:25:04< ejls> gabba_: Hi
20120427 20:27:37< gabba_> ejls: Hi, nice to see you around
20120427 20:27:48< gabba_> ejls: so, have you started on some interesting stuff?
20120427 20:27:52< ejls> gabba_: You have a mail. :)
20120427 20:28:01< gabba_> aha, checking it out now
20120427 20:33:35< gabba_> ejls: ok, I read it
20120427 20:33:58< gabba_> about the unit referencing, using the underlying id seems to work best
20120427 20:34:47< gabba_> maybe you could double-check the unit tests I did to validate they always find/don't find their unit as expected
20120427 20:35:27< gabba_> otherwise the job is mainly to scour the whiteboard to see if we're still using pointers instead, and change as needed
20120427 20:35:33-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120427 20:36:48< gabba_> ejls: en passant bonne chance pour Prologin :) !
20120427 20:37:22< ejls> When you are using an underlying id, you have to call unit_map::::find and end up with a unit_map::unit_iterator. Can't we use an unit_map::unit_iterator directly?
20120427 20:37:35< ejls> thanks :)
20120427 20:37:55< anonymissimus> mordante: is it oracle virtual vm you're using at your work ? any hints on making an xp guest as performant as possible on an ubuntu 12.04 host, with respect to compilation ?
20120427 20:38:21< gabba_> well, you'd have to check when the iterator gets invalidated
20120427 20:38:32< gabba_> the unit map is a weird beast regarding that
20120427 20:39:28< gabba_> so you have to compare our needs for tracking the unit and the iterator behavior
20120427 20:39:44< loonycyborg> anonymissimus: I have one: enable multiple cpu core support *before* installing windows xp :P
20120427 20:40:18< mordante> anonymissimus, yeah I use Oracles, however we're a Windows shop so I use an XP host with a Debian guest
20120427 20:40:20< gabba_> ejls: about boost::dynamic_pointer_cast, I'm a bit worried about the performance of dynamic casts in general
20120427 20:40:34< gabba_> maybe mordante has an opinion about using those in wesnoth ;)
20120427 20:41:10< mordante> gabba_, when a dynamic_cast is required it's required, what's the code we're talking about
20120427 20:41:22< anonymissimus> loonycyborg: yeah I did that
20120427 20:41:49< anonymissimus> well I'll probably reinstall the guest anyway once again
20120427 20:41:52< ejls> Well, using an class identifier is the same as recoding RTTI in the end and I think the compilator is better in this domain.
20120427 20:41:58< gabba_> mordante, ejls: let's say I get a move and want to know if it's actually the attack subclass
20120427 20:43:27-!- fendrin [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120427 20:43:59< mordante> you can either add your own id, and poll that, but since it's coded manually it can lie
20120427 20:44:10< mordante> if you use the RTTI it can't
20120427 20:44:36< mordante> also wonder how much slower a dynamic_cast is versus resolving a virtual function call
20120427 20:45:41< ejls> IIRC dynamic_cast is just an indirection with some address calculation since the RTTI are often stored with the vtable.
20120427 20:46:18< gabba_> ejls: well, why don't you do a short research on that, and confirm it's not much of a perf worry?
20120427 20:46:20< mordante> it's implementation defined, in fact it's not even required to use a vtable
20120427 20:46:58< ejls> Ok, sure.
20120427 20:47:04< gabba_> ejls: you can also look at how much dynamic casts are actually used in wesnoth
20120427 20:47:14< mordante> ejls, but I expect it to be as you also expect
20120427 20:48:23< ejls> Ok, thanks.
20120427 20:49:16< mordante> gabba_, ejls I use dynamic_casts in the gui code for identification, which is needed in some rare cases
20120427 20:49:38< mordante> and the classes also have a virtual function id 
20120427 20:50:07< mordante> but if I need to be sure I use the dynamic_cast, if I use it for builder functions I use the id
20120427 20:51:01< mordante> the only thing I'm not sure about in boost whether it throws or returns a NULL upon casting failure, but looking at the function name I expect the latter
20120427 20:52:05< shadowm> 14:41:36 <zerodeux> gch ran into a disk full on the mail spool
20120427 20:52:23< shadowm> just in case anyone else is wondering what's up with the gna.org mailer
20120427 20:52:48< gabba_> mordante: boost returns a "null" shared pointer, yeah. real nice to use.
20120427 20:53:02< mordante> ejls, gabba_ I wonder how useful profiling it, it will probably depend a lot on the implementation
20120427 20:53:55< mordante> and for example exceptions tend to be rather expensive in Win32-bit and earned a bad name for it
20120427 20:54:15< gabba_> I was more suggesting a quick web search to see what the well known pitfalls are
20120427 20:54:32< mordante> but the implementation on Linux has almost no overhead
20120427 20:54:59< gabba_> I see... well in our case it can still be a problem, most of our users are on windows isn't it
20120427 20:55:26< fendrin> bouchello
20120427 20:55:29< fendrin> ?
20120427 20:55:32< fendrin> hello
20120427 20:55:38< shadowm> a significant amount
20120427 20:55:38< gabba_> ejls: regarding your calendar, a few things
20120427 20:55:59< gabba_> Don't you have exams or something at some point this summer?
20120427 20:56:14< mordante> gabba_, expect we decided to use them a lot ;-) (and already did when I joined)
20120427 20:56:20< shadowm> (i.e. it's impossible for us to check how many users from what platforms there are, but it's safe to say a significant and vocal portion of the community uses Windows)
20120427 20:56:26< mordante> hi fendrin 
20120427 20:56:40< fendrin> hi mordante
20120427 20:58:26< ejls> gabba_: Yep, during phase 1 (side_actions refactoring), I forgot to modify the timeline, I'll start this task sooner.
20120427 20:58:50< gabba_> ejls: have to go afk now. But regarding the start of your calendar, I think you should start work on the side_actions refactoring right away. You can write the design document as you go
20120427 20:59:09< gabba_> I prefer an iterative approach to top-down
20120427 20:59:14< ejls> I'm feeling like I don't have a lot to do during the comunity bounding period, so yeah.
20120427 20:59:34< mordante> Akihara_, around?
20120427 21:00:53< ejls> gabba_: Ok, I should finish the "polishing" of the comunity bounding period by the end of next week, I'll start the side_actions refactoring then.
20120427 21:03:47< fendrin> wesbot: seen boucman
20120427 21:03:47< wesbot> fendrin: The person with the nick boucman last spoke 3h 13m ago.  3h 13m ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving.
20120427 21:03:54< anonymissimus> loonycyborg: hm, these shared folders seem painfully slow, it needs more than 2 minutes just to launch the test scenario, same application just 20 secs on win
20120427 21:04:39-!- gabba_ [d8623925@wesnoth/developer/gabba] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20120427 21:04:55< anonymissimus> mordante: why are you using virtual box as opposed to dual-boot ?
20120427 21:05:26< anonymissimus> do you need to switch quickly, or aren't you allowed to make a dual boot ?
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20120427 21:05:31< loonycyborg> anonymissimus: Yes. There seems to be huge slowdown when you access shared folders.
20120427 21:06:03< loonycyborg> Maybe just copy stuff on the vm's disk :P
20120427 21:06:04< shadowm> Oh, Windows is the _host_? That sounds painful. :p
20120427 21:06:42< anonymissimus> mordant has an xp host ;)
20120427 21:07:06< shadowm> Hence my statement.
20120427 21:07:51< mordante> anonymissimus, I do all main development on Linux but the specifications I write need to be written in Word
20120427 21:08:39< mordante> also too lazy to set up samba, all development is done in Subversion so I don't really need network share access on Windows
20120427 21:09:00< mordante> shadowm, why painful?
20120427 21:09:10< anonymissimus> well; I would like to have a single version of the wesnoth git repo so I put it onto the shared folder, but this setup appears to slow :(
20120427 21:09:42< shadowm> mordante: Because Windows is more efficient as a guest IME (unless you really need hardware functionality virtualbox cannot provide).
20120427 21:10:16< mordante> I mainly use shared folders to copy data, I used them for some data processing and had the feeling it was slow, but didn't investigate
20120427 21:10:46< shadowm> For that matter my last two laptops are Debian hosts with XP guests.
20120427 21:11:34< mordante> shadowm, well we're a Windows shop, so I prefer this solution over dual-booting or two boxes
20120427 21:19:27< Espreon> anonymissimus: I got rid of it after I got bored of it; I don't feel like making another anytime soon.
20120427 21:20:25 * anonymissimus reboots
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20120427 21:25:51 * fendrin 's system tells him to reboot as well after an update. He is denying it since 3 days.
20120427 21:30:51< loonycyborg> If it's linux then only kernel updates warrant that afaik.
20120427 21:31:18< mordante> glibc might also like a reboot
20120427 21:31:23< loonycyborg> Or maybe video card driver..
20120427 21:31:41< shadowm> loonycyborg: anything involving kernel, in other words.
20120427 21:32:10< shadowm> because for example with a ddx-only update it's enough to just restart X.org
20120427 21:32:36< loonycyborg> Even kernel modules can be unloaded and then reloaded.
20120427 21:33:11< loonycyborg> Rebootless update of nvidia-drivers works for me.
20120427 21:33:39< shadowm> I don't think reloading graphics controller drivers is a good idea in general
20120427 21:33:48< shadowm> I recall I once trashed my session that way
20120427 21:33:48< loonycyborg> Basically shut down X, modprobe -r nvidia, modprobe nvidia; start X
20120427 21:33:58< fendrin> loonycyborg: Ideed, it was a kernel update. And I wouldn't expect a debian based system to reboot for anything else :-)
20120427 21:34:36< fendrin> mordante: Yeah, but glibc update rarely occours when using a stable. Haven't seen it since ages.
20120427 21:34:59< mordante> fendrin, true
20120427 21:35:49< mordante> and of course when updating to the next Debian stable often causes more than one reboot
20120427 21:36:09< mordante> oh and virtualbox driver installation also requires a reboot
20120427 21:36:46 * fendrin reboots
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20120427 21:40:31< fendrin> Feels like before.
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20120427 21:43:41< shadowm> I have never needed more than a single reboot for Debian stable->testing since the upgrade itself always works just fine in one step.
20120427 21:47:18< Ivanovic> i'm off now for today, cu
20120427 21:48:14< mordante> bye Ivanovic 
20120427 21:48:20< fendrin> Ivanovic: Have fun.
20120427 21:48:38< mordante> shadowm, http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#upgrading-udev
20120427 21:50:50< shadowm> It's never occurred to me to boot with the old kernel and expect a working system.
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20120427 21:53:14< shadowm> Especially since most of the time that old kernel is a custom build.
20120427 21:54:38< mordante> yeah, but that caused me to reboot twice
20120427 21:55:44< mordante> I'm off night
20120427 21:55:53< Espreon> Damn it.
20120427 21:56:13< Espreon> Meh, it can wait.
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20120427 22:01:19< Espreon> Hmmmm, I wonder if we could get Pango to invoke OpenType tag voodoo... 'cause ss02 + Junicode = kewl. http://junicode.sourceforge.net/juntest.html
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--- Log closed Sat Apr 28 00:00:38 2012