--- Log opened Wed Jun 06 00:00:11 2012
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20120606 00:30:08< bloodycoin_m> boucman: is subanimation/particule by itself location independant? I see location in unit_anim and in unit_frame, but not in particule...
20120606 00:30:52< boucman> bloodycoin_m: working from memory here... but I think the answer is yes
20120606 00:31:24< boucman> the location is in the unit_frame
20120606 00:31:38< boucman> but the unit_animation needs tto have one too, I don't remember why
20120606 00:31:59< boucman> gimme a sec
20120606 00:33:13< bloodycoin_m> not sure, but I would guess, that unit_anim location describes where unit itself is, and unit_frame - where to start drawing frame in regard to unit... wild guess
20120606 00:33:32< boucman> yeah, after looking at the code you're right
20120606 00:34:04< boucman> the unit_animation stores two locations, which are the source and destination hex (usually for the case of a unit moving between two hex) 
20120606 00:34:15< bloodycoin_m> that's a bit troublesome...
20120606 00:34:35< boucman> and the unit_frame has a x and y and offset parameters that are offsets to the hex center
20120606 00:34:38< boucman> why
20120606 00:34:39< boucman> ?
20120606 00:35:15< bloodycoin_m> because I need to supply location (as a spawn point) for effect
20120606 00:35:46< bloodycoin_m> and I don't see how could I do that from subanimation ctor
20120606 00:38:34< bloodycoin_m> and after attaching effect_user to subanim, I see that every subanim, gets a separate effect. Which is quite what I would like to do (I think)
20120606 00:38:50< boucman> do you really need in the ctor, can't you wait for the first redraw to have the real pos (by checking if the pos is invalid or something )
20120606 00:39:51< bloodycoin_m> that's what I am doing now..
20120606 00:42:17< boucman> ok so that's good... use a ctor for your particle without a loc, and set the loc on redraw... 
20120606 00:44:54< boucman> bloodycoin_m: I need to go to sleep now, i'll talk to you later. but don't hesitate to mail me, it's easier while i'm at work
20120606 00:45:11< bloodycoin_m> I figured that much out.. :)
20120606 00:45:20< bloodycoin_m> was fighting with includes half day
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20120606 05:25:16< neofutur> 1.10 have a strange bug on timelimit, theres a time glitch, sometimes, not always, when the game last a long time 
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20120606 10:10:36< shadowm> Elvish_Hunter: I think you are too formulaic for moderating stuff.
20120606 10:11:23< shadowm> There's really no need to quote all of the relevant documentation when it's possible to link it instead, and/or provide a condensed version.
20120606 10:12:02< shadowm> Not to mention that you aren't locking that topic to avoid us problems. You are locking it because there's no point on continuing (or starting, in this case) to discuss the matter.
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20120606 15:17:47< the_new_lipk> hey Ayne
20120606 15:17:55< Ayne> hi
20120606 15:18:24< the_new_lipk> you've been working on the gold management in scenarios recently, is that right?
20120606 15:19:09< the_new_lipk> I mean, you've been fiddling with income and such things
20120606 15:19:34< Ayne> I'm working on the transitions between scenarios, the carryover gold and stuff
20120606 15:20:26< the_new_lipk> so, if I'd say that I'm experiencing odd things with income calculation in trunk, would you deny to be responsible?
20120606 15:20:58< Ayne> yes. I haven't done anything with income and I haven't committed yet either
20120606 15:21:25< the_new_lipk> what a pity :( then I'll have to make proper bug report 
20120606 15:21:39< Crab_> the_new_lipk: ;P
20120606 15:21:46< Ayne> sorry :P
20120606 15:23:11< vultraz> lol
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20120606 16:10:38< Oleg> Hi everybody :)
20120606 16:11:01< Oleg> Hi everybody :)
20120606 16:11:04< Oleg> I will return back to development soon
20120606 16:11:12< Crab_> hi, Oleg
20120606 16:11:14< Oleg> I also now have this server: http://s2.ipicture.ru/uploads/20120606/UmWyv4W8.png
20120606 16:11:15< Oleg> for build system.
20120606 16:11:29< Crab_> It's good to see you again
20120606 16:11:30< Oleg> In several days my admin will setup proxmox for it
20120606 16:11:40< Oleg> Good to see you to, Ilia :)
20120606 16:11:48< Oleg> I am changed my work and overloaded on it
20120606 16:12:00< Oleg> Looks like in several weeks will be easy
20120606 16:12:21< Oleg> But, so, first I want to re-setup build.wesnoth.in on new hardware
20120606 16:12:50< Oleg> 64 GB RAM, 3TB HDD and 6 CORE CPU (+6 HyperThreading) I think would be enough for all....
20120606 16:13:15< Oleg> loonycyborg: ping? :)
20120606 16:13:37< Oleg> loonycyborg: server is setuped! I just wait while admin is connecting it to Proxmox
20120606 16:13:55< Oleg> loonycyborg: On this weekend I will start the setup containers for build
20120606 16:18:35< loonycyborg> Oleg: kk
20120606 16:18:36< Espreon> Hello, Oleg.
20120606 16:18:43< Oleg> Espreon: Hi!
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20120606 19:39:48< boucman> wesbot: seen mordante
20120606 19:39:48< wesbot> boucman: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 23h 8m ago.  22h 28m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Quit: Leaving
20120606 19:39:52< boucman> darn
20120606 19:40:00< boucman> the_new_lipk: did you manage to speak with mordante ?
20120606 19:40:09< boucman> bloodycoin_m: i'm rereading your code now
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20120606 19:49:50-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 176 bugs, 337 feature requests, 15 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20120606 19:51:33< boucman> bloodycoin_m: i'm a bit confused by the following block of code
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20120606 19:51:53< boucman> hmm, nvm, I had missed that one line was commented out
20120606 19:52:07< boucman> ok, so not much to comment :P
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20120606 20:19:58< fendrin> hi boucman
20120606 20:20:06< boucman> fendrin: hey, 
20120606 20:20:20< boucman> i'm about to leave, is there something you wanted to discuss ?
20120606 20:23:08< boucman> bbl
20120606 20:23:38< fendrin> boucman: No, just wanted to say hello.
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20120606 22:19:11< Ivanovic> hi
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20120606 22:39:02< bloodycoin_m> boucman: around?
20120606 22:39:10< boucman> yup, just came back
20120606 22:39:21< boucman> I reread your code, not much to say, looks good
20120606 22:39:25< boucman> didn't test it yet, though
20120606 22:40:30< bloodycoin_m> mm... but I am not really happy with creating effect on every animation change...
20120606 22:41:02< boucman> hmm
20120606 22:41:27< bloodycoin_m> now, I am not removing created effect, but if you run wesnoth, and just click on any unit, you can, see that with every click there is a new effect created
20120606 22:41:29< boucman> why are you not happy with that ?
20120606 22:41:39< bloodycoin_m> even though animation visually is the same
20120606 22:41:56< boucman> i'm compiling right now, i'll check in a minute
20120606 22:43:18< bloodycoin_m> so even if I did remove effects in subanimation/effect_user destor, effect would restart needlessly way too many times
20120606 22:43:46< boucman> hmm
20120606 22:44:08< boucman> I see two cases here
20120606 22:44:34< boucman> either we have a change in animation, in which case it makes sense to destroy/restart the effect
20120606 22:44:48< bloodycoin_m> and with current particle_engine, even if animation changes, I don't need to remove effect, it's sufficient to change effect type
20120606 22:44:53< boucman> (the effect of an attack anim will be different from the effect of a defense anim, so we do want to change)
20120606 22:45:28< boucman> bloodycoin_m: but what's the point of not recreating the effect, what do we gain by recycling ?
20120606 22:45:43< boucman> does it look better ? does it avoid recreating a surface ?
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20120606 22:47:15< bloodycoin_m> yes.. I do think it looks better, to change how particles look and move, rather then spotting effect, and then starting it again.
20120606 22:48:23< boucman> hmm, there is something I don't understand... in what way is recycling visually different from recreating ? I must have missed it in the code...
20120606 22:48:53< bloodycoin_m> currently it recreates surface, but I plan to do dirty bounds checking and not recreate surface, if particles from current iteration fit on effect surface from last iteration
20120606 22:48:59< bloodycoin_m> ./s/iteration/frame
20120606 22:49:31< boucman> yes but that wouldn't change anything visually, would it ? it's only optimization...
20120606 22:49:58< bloodycoin_m> yea, this part is plain optimization
20120606 22:50:47< bloodycoin_m> well, at least now, if I start an effect, particle appear gradually, not instantly all of them. And removing them kills them all
20120606 22:52:19< bloodycoin_m> also recycling effects lets my recycle particles, and there I do avoid recreating surfaces.. I image about at least 50 particles per effect
20120606 22:52:44< boucman> hmm
20120606 22:52:48< bloodycoin_m> ./s/my/me
20120606 22:52:50< shadowm> I'm a fool for trying to download a 10 MiB add-on through the in-game add-ons client.
20120606 22:53:06< shadowm> This thing enjoys disconnecting me if my connection lags too much.
20120606 22:55:25< bloodycoin_m> boucman: I think I could even pause effect, and resume it later... but I am not sure that would look visually good
20120606 22:56:18< boucman> ok, I have an idea for your optimization concerns (though at this point I am not convinced it's really an issue) but before that i'd really like to be clear because our conversation has been a bit confusing...
20120606 22:56:53< boucman> is it or is it not visually different to recycle (emphasis on visually, I want to separate the functional concerns from the optimisation concerns...)
20120606 22:59:02< bloodycoin_m> truthfully I didn't try think case... theoretically yes... In 10 minutes I can give real results (need to recompile)
20120606 22:59:21< boucman> ok, could you check that ?
20120606 22:59:58< bloodycoin_m> ugh... I didn't wrote destor for effect_user.... that means compiling will take at least 40 min -.-
20120606 23:00:08< boucman> ouch
20120606 23:00:26< boucman> ok, let me expose my idea, and let's assume it's visually identical for the time being
20120606 23:00:32< bloodycoin_m> yea... hpp change..
20120606 23:00:39< boucman> IIUC the cost of surfaces is in creation and destruction
20120606 23:00:58< boucman> but moving a surface is low cost, and so is redrawing what's on the surface itself
20120606 23:01:50< boucman> so would it work to save a list of unused surface in the particle_engine, add surface there as part of the effect dtor and reuse if they are available as part of the effect ctor
20120606 23:02:16< boucman> this way surfaces would be naturally passed from effect to effect without the effect needing to know who its heir is...
20120606 23:04:10< bloodycoin_m> so basically - to keep a pool of reusable/available surfaces..
20120606 23:04:17< boucman> yes
20120606 23:07:34< bloodycoin_m> hmm... but I don't think there is a way to check surface's size...
20120606 23:07:49< bloodycoin_m> and in most cases I need to know size...
20120606 23:08:10< boucman> bloodycoin_m: I think there is, but if there isn't you can wrap the surface in a small struct to have the info
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20120606 23:12:25< bloodycoin_m> boucman: it's possible, but that then I fear, that searching for suitable surface would take more than creating new one (gut feeling). and of course that would really complicate code..
20120606 23:12:57< boucman> hmm
20120606 23:13:39< boucman> well, when you reuse, you assume that you have a high chance that the new effect will need the same size than the old one... which has similar chances of happening....
20120606 23:15:06< bloodycoin_m> true. I could also organize surfaces in a list by their size...
20120606 23:15:55< boucman> yes, but that's true for my surface server too :)
20120606 23:15:57< bloodycoin_m> or use hashmap with size as a key..
20120606 23:17:09< boucman> overall I think that reusing surface is an early optimization we shouldn't worry about at this point. I am not sure we gain a lot by doing it, and if we do it seems that we can gain the same with my approch, so let's focus on having a good behaviour first and optimize later
20120606 23:31:12< boucman> bloodycoin_m: still around ?
20120606 23:31:31< bloodycoin_m> yep
20120606 23:33:32< boucman> so you agree ?
20120606 23:34:12< bloodycoin_m> on concentrating good behaviour - yes...
20120606 23:35:08< bloodycoin_m> yet your approach looks a bit.. hmm... something between overkill and wasteful >.<
20120606 23:35:17< boucman> :)
20120606 23:35:51< boucman> bloodycoin_m: well, having that sort of resource manager is pretty common, that's how we manage threads and connection pools in the server
20120606 23:36:25< boucman> but I agree it's overkill, I think the whole reusing surfaces is not that usefull since there is a very high chance we can't reuse anyway because of size
20120606 23:36:30< bloodycoin_m> I know, but because it's common, doesn't mean there isn't a better solution ;P
20120606 23:36:31< boucman> so I would drop it entirely 
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20120606 23:38:21< bloodycoin_m> boucman: say.. I asked this before, but just be 99% clear... unit_anim_ holds the currently main animation unit is playing, right? and it can change. not to change as in recreation, but change as in animation type
20120606 23:38:46< boucman> it is the main animation, yes
20120606 23:39:07< boucman> but I am not sure what you mean by change in animation type
20120606 23:39:33< boucman> when a unit changes its animation, the whole unit_animation is discarded, not just the subanimations within the unit_animation
20120606 23:39:39< bloodycoin_m> I mean... as in change between simple standing anim and idle anim
20120606 23:39:42< boucman> so the unit_anim_ is discarded too
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20120606 23:40:03< boucman> ok, so no. it's recreated because the class containing it (unit_animation) is recreated
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20120606 23:43:03< bloodycoin_m> hm.... then... suppose we are fusing on adding particle effects to unit itself. (forgetting about projectiles for now) then wouldn't make more sense to attach effect_user to unit_animation rather than subanimation?
20120606 23:43:42< bloodycoin_m> *wouldn't it make
20120606 23:44:09< bloodycoin_m> I seriously need to reread my sentences... -.-
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20120606 23:44:41< boucman> well, it would remove one of the reason I want to attach it to subanimation, but there are other left...
20120606 23:46:12< boucman> look at the HALO_FRAME_SAURIAN macro in data/core/macros/animation-utils.cfg
20120606 23:46:34< boucman> this animation only contains [halo_frame] blocks it is meant to be included in othe animation blocks
20120606 23:47:38< boucman> if effects could only be defined at global animation block, there could be only one effect per animation, whereas attaching it to subanimations allows to attach multiple effects to the same animation and also allows to have multiple macros like the one I mentionned that can be reused separately
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20120606 23:53:16< bloodycoin_m> hmmm...
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20120606 23:55:36< bloodycoin_m> but it is not needed for effect to be defined frame by frame... all you need to do is to which effect to use...
20120606 23:56:19< boucman> hmm
20120606 23:57:14< boucman> no, not frame by frame, I thought of attaching them to subanimations, not to unit_frame
20120606 23:57:21< bloodycoin_m> boucman: as for few effect per animation... it could be done by setting up a list in effect_user, or even exposing effects to unit (as I remember unit is contains unit_animation)
20120606 23:57:22< boucman> or maybe I don't understand what you mean
20120606 23:58:22< boucman> bloodycoin_m: hmm, but our artists will want to attach an effect to a specific animation, not to a specific unit...
20120606 23:58:40< boucman> I mean an explosion effect needs to go with the attack animation, it's not part of the unit
20120606 23:59:13< boucman> so it makes no sense to attach it to to the unit itself, the unit doesn't know what animation it is playing
20120606 23:59:28< boucman> (otoh, having effect_user contain a list of effects could work)
--- Log closed Thu Jun 07 00:00:08 2012