--- Log opened Thu Jun 14 00:00:01 2012
--- Day changed Thu Jun 14 2012
20120614 00:00:01< anonymissimus> Espreon: should be fine now
20120614 00:02:43< Espreon> Huzzah.
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20120614 00:31:58< Espreon> anonymissimus: Yeah, it's been fixed. Thanks.
20120614 00:33:47< Espreon> A/win 16
20120614 00:33:50< Espreon> Sorry.
20120614 00:35:16< Espreon> Hmmm, maybe it wasn't a good idea to change those [show_if][variable] to [show_if][have_unit]... 'cause then the objectives disappear when they die. Yeah, I doubt many people look at the objectives right after losing... but... I dunno.
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20120614 00:35:44< Espreon> *then those
20120614 00:36:31< Espreon> shadowm: What do you think?
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20120614 00:37:56< Espreon> ... Yeah, I'm changing it back.
20120614 00:40:01< Espreon> ... Having disappearing objectives for no good reason is blargh.
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20120614 11:50:49< bumbadadabum> zookeeper: can I suggest the addition of a macro to mainline?
20120614 11:50:59< zookeeper> of course
20120614 11:51:29< zookeeper> generally though i'd really like to not add macros which aren't used in mainline
20120614 11:51:40< bumbadadabum> http://pastebin.com/q1tLY2CE
20120614 11:51:50< bumbadadabum> I believe this is also used in mainline
20120614 11:52:49< bumbadadabum> (Mostly with loyals though, but changing this is really easy)
20120614 11:53:10< zookeeper> so how does that differ from GENERIC_UNIT..?
20120614 11:53:20< zookeeper> it's not like it randomizes the unit type or anything else
20120614 11:53:29< bumbadadabum> d'oh
20120614 11:53:39< bumbadadabum> forgot to put it to rand={TYPE}
20120614 11:53:50< zookeeper> right ;)
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20120614 11:54:41< zookeeper> well, i dunno. is there any particular reason why it should be mainlined? it's such a trivial thing to include such a macro in whatever UMC one is making
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20120614 11:55:10< bumbadadabum> you could say the same about {GENERIC_UNIT}
20120614 11:56:05< zookeeper> sure, but GENERIC_UNIT is used in hundreds of places
20120614 11:56:43< bumbadadabum> The only macro of that kind I never see is {UNIT}
20120614 11:58:08< zookeeper> yeah, i'm pretty sure there's quite a few cruft macros there
20120614 11:59:33< bumbadadabum> one thing you can do with this macro though, is creating more variety in screnarios
20120614 12:00:25< zookeeper> i'm all for adding macros which perform non-trivial but common tasks, or trivial shortcuts which are used everywhere, but there's pretty much an infinite amount of different unit-spawning macros one could make
20120614 12:01:09< bumbadadabum> okay then
20120614 12:07:33< zookeeper> we have like 500 core macros already, some of them no doubt rather unused or even broken, and as said it's really really easy for an UMC maker to just define their own macros if they need new ones, so...
20120614 12:07:35< zookeeper> i think the core macro library should just provide shortcuts for the most common tasks, or tasks which are in particular need of uniform behaviour, or utility macros for doing complicated but often handy things (SCATTER_UNITS comes to mind)
20120614 12:07:54< bumbadadabum> I get it
20120614 12:10:47< zookeeper> if there actually are several places in mainline where one first picks a random unit type and then creates the unit with GENERIC_UNIT or such, then sure, i think adding yours would likely be warranted
20120614 12:11:09< bumbadadabum> I remember there being such instances
20120614 12:11:16< bumbadadabum> but I can't remember where
20120614 12:11:53< zookeeper> i'm sure there's a case _somewhere_, but i don't really recall any. even scenarios like crossroads and drowned plains use a different kind of unit type randomization
20120614 12:13:12< zookeeper> northern outpost does use simple randomization like that, but then it doesn't create the units with a macro :P
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20120614 12:32:10< bumbadadabum> zookeeper: Hide and seek uses it this way
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20120614 13:58:21< esr> zookeeper: I think I removed the actually unused macros some timeago.  I have code to detect that.
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20120614 14:26:08< the_new_lipk> fendrin_: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36977#p530916
20120614 14:26:19< the_new_lipk> are you referring to me there?
20120614 14:27:12< the_new_lipk> if yes, I'd like to clarify that the whole stuff I'm working on is going to be mp-exclusive
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20120614 16:26:28< CIA-87> anonymissimus * r54407 /trunk/data/core/macros/event-utils.cfg: 
20120614 16:26:28< CIA-87> improve CALL_FUNCTION macro
20120614 16:26:28< CIA-87> (bug #19805, http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=36989&p=531212)
20120614 16:26:33< CIA-87> anonymissimus * r54408 /trunk/changelog: changelog update
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20120614 16:32:29< CIA-87> anonymissimus * r54409 /branches/1.10/data/core/macros/event-utils.cfg: 
20120614 16:32:30< CIA-87> improve CALL_FUNCTION macro
20120614 16:32:30< CIA-87> (bug #19805, http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=36989&p=531212)
20120614 16:32:30< CIA-87> Backported from trunk r54407
20120614 16:32:40< CIA-87> anonymissimus * r54410 /branches/1.10/changelog: changelog update
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20120614 17:50:56< bumbadadabum> Is there already a [store_system_time] or something tag?
20120614 17:52:15< shadowm> Didn't I tell you you could use time=stamp? Did you check whether the Lua functions I mentioned are enabled too?
20120614 17:52:32< bumbadadabum> you didn't
20120614 17:52:47< shadowm> 05:17:48 <bumbadadabum> vultraz: Do you know if you can store the system time in lua?
20120614 17:52:53< shadowm> 05:18:04 <shadowm> You can in WML at least.
20120614 17:52:58< shadowm> 05:18:53 <shadowm> You might want to check os.date and os.time here for the Lua way: http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html#5.8  I don't know if those  are disabled in Wesnoth,though.
20120614 17:53:01< bumbadadabum> that I know
20120614 17:53:04< shadowm> 05:19:15 <shadowm> vultraz: the time=stamp special syntax for the .set_variable action in events.
20120614 17:53:07< bumbadadabum> those not
20120614 17:53:33< bumbadadabum> time=stamp
20120614 17:53:49< bumbadadabum> how do you use that?
20120614 17:54:03< shadowm> You use it and you get the current TS stored in the variable.
20120614 17:54:31< bumbadadabum> in [set_variable]?
20120614 17:54:38< shadowm> I said set_variable action in events.
20120614 17:54:55< bumbadadabum> so in lua
20120614 17:55:05< shadowm> I said set_variable action in events.
20120614 17:55:12< shadowm> Not xyz Lua function.
20120614 17:55:33< bumbadadabum> In layman's terms
20120614 17:56:20< shadowm> [set_variable] is the set_variable action and it's only used in events, like all other actions.
20120614 17:56:33< bumbadadabum> as I said earlier
20120614 17:57:00< shadowm> Like I said first.
20120614 17:57:13< bumbadadabum> bumbadadabum: in [set_variable]?
20120614 17:57:14< shadowm> Do you realize this is documented, too?
20120614 17:57:19< bumbadadabum> no
20120614 17:57:34< shadowm> Okay, feel free to check time=stamp here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/InternalActionsWML#.5Bset_variable.5D
20120614 17:57:57< shadowm> Also notice that checking that page in the first place wouldn't have required a significant intellectual effort on your part.
20120614 17:58:29< shadowm> Using the TS properly is a different matter.
20120614 17:59:07< bumbadadabum> can you, and if you can, how do you input a [case]-like tag into a lua-made wml tag
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20120614 18:14:26< anonymissimus> bumbadadabum: you are expected to use the wiki for answering questions yourself
20120614 18:14:59< anonymissimus> guys, you are just to kind to people misusing this channel fro speeding up their work a bit
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20120614 18:26:20< loonycyborg> anonymissimus: You say it like it's a bad thing.
20120614 18:27:49< anonymissimus> I do think that it is a bad thing, It kind of derails the channel.
20120614 18:28:07< shadowm> Because there's so much going on at all times!
20120614 18:28:27< anonymissimus> If I ask something here I always have looked it up in some wiki and probably also in google already
20120614 18:29:25< anonymissimus> Well, perhaps I feel in also unfair if someone uses this speedup while I force myself to find the answer usually myself which is slower :P
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20120614 18:58:23< fendrin_> the_new_lipk: Oh, that is very sad.
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20120614 19:04:08 * vultraz wishes someone would finish Zaroth's unfinished work
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20120614 19:05:56< anonymissimus> vultraz: actually, Ayne's project is sort of the successor
20120614 19:06:29< anonymissimus> however, there's still this --new-syntax parameter and some related dead code in the engine
20120614 19:06:37< vultraz> is that the improve scen transition one?
20120614 19:06:44< anonymissimus> yes
20120614 19:07:02< AI0867> the_new_lipk: how is it (the stuff fendrin referred to) coming along anyway? I thought about something similar a year or two ago.
20120614 19:08:56< vultraz> anonymissimus: it's not going to do stuff like allow difficulties in mp stuff, though, is it?
20120614 19:14:28< the_new_lipk> AI0867, the patch providing basic support is almost ready to to be commited (waiting for a final proofreading) and I plan to implement some more goodies during the summer
20120614 19:15:23< the_new_lipk> and, as I found out, everybody had thought about this feature some time in the past just everybody's lazy around here :P
20120614 19:16:04< AI0867> I started doing some testing on a smaller version, and didn't manage to encounter the problem someone else had predicted
20120614 19:16:19< AI0867> and then forgot all about it
20120614 19:17:10< anonymissimus> vultraz: don't think so; the main point is refactoring and such
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20120614 19:17:36< anonymissimus> which is much more important than any new features in such an old an bug project
20120614 19:17:48< anonymissimus> lol, "big project"
20120614 19:17:54< vultraz> hehe
20120614 19:18:03< vultraz> what exactly is it going to do
20120614 19:18:05< anonymissimus> but bug project hits the nail on the head
20120614 19:19:03< anonymissimus> I dunno, ask crab_ or the student
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20120614 19:49:50-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 178 bugs, 338 feature requests, 16 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20120614 19:57:12< crab_> vultraz: we are going to allow to change difficulties in MP
20120614 19:57:48< vultraz> oh, so #iddef dIFFICULTY will work in mp now?
20120614 19:57:52< crab_> vultraz: the idea is that we will allow, in the end, to run user-specified code/gui between scenarios, just-after-scenario-has-ended and just-before-scenario-will-start
20120614 19:58:11< crab_> vultraz: so, at just-before-scenario-will-start, the next scenario is not yet parsed.
20120614 19:58:29< crab_> vultraz: so, if we change the difficulty at this point, the next scenario would be parsed using the new difficulty
20120614 19:58:43< crab_> so, #ifdef DIFFICULTY would work
20120614 19:59:37< crab_> actually, I've coded proof-of-concept MP campaign difficulty selection while we were in a restaurant at FOSDEM (and showed it later to devs that were there), so I'm quite sure that it's perfectly doable
20120614 19:59:50< vultraz> ahhh...so we would be able to have a difficulty menu and stuffs like SP?
20120614 19:59:56< crab_> but, we want to do it in a cleaner way that would allow better control over what's happening.
20120614 20:00:07< crab_> yes, 'better control' would include 'gui for selection'
20120614 20:00:29< crab_> but, to make it work we need to move some pieces of code to their 'proper' locations, and that's the refactoring part that Ayne is doing right now
20120614 20:00:43< vultraz> ahh
20120614 20:00:45< vultraz> nice :)
20120614 20:01:05< crab_> we are adding a concept of 'carryover info', which is like a bank which contains all the persistent sides and game state
20120614 20:01:28< crab_> and, we would allow user code to do various stuff with the bank and with that state
20120614 20:01:49< vultraz> is the ultimate goal to make sp and mp the same behind the scenes, but have mp run over the network?
20120614 20:02:08< crab_> no, SP is SP and MP is MP, we're not mixing them :)
20120614 20:02:10< vultraz> eg you could take any scenario in sp and run it through mp
20120614 20:02:24< crab_> but, during scenario transition, we want to allow SP to change to MP and back
20120614 20:03:28< crab_> i.e., "for next scenario, set difficulty to whatever user has selected in that gui box, synchronizing the choice to other players, and run next scenario, transferring all non-undead recruits of side 1 from the bank to scenario, and transferring up to 2000 gold from the bank to side 1 gold."
20120614 20:03:57< crab_> that approach is different from Zaroth's approach
20120614 20:04:04< vultraz> I think Zaroth was also going to make sp campaigns observable through the mp server
20120614 20:04:06< crab_> for now, I don't want to mess with SP and MP in-game
20120614 20:04:34< crab_> so, I've chosen a different approach - don't mess with SP and MP, but, instead refactor scenario transitions to make them well-defined and configurable
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20120614 20:04:50< crab_> I think it's quite doable during GSOC time
20120614 20:05:02< crab_> and would fix some save/load bugs, especially in MP campaigns
20120614 20:05:11< crab_> since save and load are scenario transitions, as well
20120614 20:05:29< crab_> so, MP-to-SP would probably be possible later, when loading game,.
20120614 20:05:34< crab_> or between scenarios.
20120614 20:05:45< crab_> but, it's not the main focus, main focus is making transitions clean
20120614 20:05:54< crab_> we can just get some stuff as free lunch
20120614 20:06:27< crab_> for example, gold carryover and recalls carryover would be pushed out to lua code (and there'll be a way to override them)
20120614 20:07:49< vultraz> so if between scens you could go from sp to mp, theoretically could this happen before scen 1 loads?
20120614 20:08:35< bumbadadabum> so, you could make a sp campaign you can spectate
20120614 20:08:38< crab_> yes, of course
20120614 20:08:47< crab_> but that's just the side effect :)
20120614 20:08:55< bumbadadabum> that is awesome
20120614 20:09:03< crab_> 1st scenario would not be not special in any way
20120614 20:09:19< crab_> also, we want to steal assign-players-to-sides dialog
20120614 20:09:36< crab_> I'd like to allow this dialog to pop up between scenarios
20120614 20:09:47< vultraz> wow
20120614 20:09:54< vultraz> this sounds really nice
20120614 20:10:14< bumbadadabum> okay
20120614 20:12:11< crab_> but, we're not unifying SP and MP code
20120614 20:12:28< crab_> we just want to select the code we want when we're loading or going into next scenario
20120614 20:12:31< bumbadadabum> but you can switch
20120614 20:12:38< crab_> only at well-defined moments. 
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20120614 20:16:29< crab_> bumbadadabum: save/load is one of the ways to do it, and 'end scenario' is another way to do it
20120614 20:16:42< crab_> note that end-via-defeat is also a valid transition
20120614 20:16:45< bumbadadabum> k
20120614 20:17:02< crab_> so, we can, for example, say after defeat 'ok, do you want to try this scenario in easier difficulty?'
20120614 20:17:17< crab_> or, say, 'do you want to try this scenario in MP?'  (if scenario supports it, of course)
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20120614 20:32:11< ejls> wesbot: seen gabba
20120614 20:32:12< wesbot> ejls: Person, who 23h 56m ago used nick gabba, last spoke 1d ago.  20h 9m ago as gabba_ they left with the message: Quit: Page closed
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20120614 21:14:21< Ivanovic> hi
20120614 21:21:05< Nephro> crab_, hi. Sorry I didn't get a chance to do anything today, got a little stomach ache. I will sort the documentation first thing tomorrow, do you have any particular tasks to do afterwards? mattsc doesn't have time at the moment to discuss further debugging features
20120614 21:21:26< Nephro> I have a couple of things I can do before that, but maybe you want something to be done asap
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20120614 21:36:12< crab_> Nephro: no, nothing asap. I wanted you to convert the examples and code in campaigns, afterwards, to the newer syntax.
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20120614 23:39:16< trademark_> hi
--- Log closed Fri Jun 15 00:00:02 2012