--- Log opened Wed Jun 27 00:00:09 2012
20120627 00:01:10< mattsc> neph: a question about the new syntax.  I sometimes use the same CA for different unit, or on different sides, by giving either the eval or the exec function (or both) a parameter, such as the id of the unit.
20120627 00:01:22< mattsc> Is that possible with the new syntax?
20120627 00:01:51< neph> you mena behaviour ca?
20120627 00:02:37< mattsc> Uh, I mean whatever CA you include with the 'location' key in your new syntax.  Would that be a behaviour CA?
20120627 00:03:08< mattsc> Another example would be to set up a 'goto CA' of sorts, that takes the goto coordinates as parameter.
20120627 00:05:58< mattsc> In other words (I think), one needs to be able to pass parameters from the [candidate_action] block to the eval and exec functions somehow.
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20120627 00:12:03< neph> mattsc, ok, I'll sort that too
20120627 00:12:32< mattsc> neph: Great!
20120627 00:13:19< neph> now I'm off though
20120627 00:14:05< mattsc> gn.  I'll check out the new method tonight (my time)
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20120627 07:49:50-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 180 bugs, 339 feature requests, 16 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120627 07:57:22< vultraz> Ivanovic: is there a chance I could get commit access to help maintain the XCode proj?
20120627 07:58:02< Ivanovic> uhm, good question, can't say right now, please ping me once i am back from work (leaving to get some work done now)
20120627 07:58:43< vultraz> mk
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20120627 08:21:04< Gallifax> Hello
20120627 08:21:13< Gallifax> Is wesnoth down atm?
20120627 08:26:31< vultraz> doesn't seem so...
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20120627 11:07:17< Crab_> hi, neph
20120627 11:07:37< neph> morning Crab_ 
20120627 11:09:56< Crab_> neph: how it's going? In around a week, closer to midterm evaluation, I'll try to rewrite formula ai code in a few mainline scenarios using lua ai code, just as a test of how it's working now.
20120627 11:10:31< Crab_> Any issues that I should be aware of, by then? also, where to find the documentation to do so (if I want to do so without looking at the sources)?
20120627 11:11:25< neph> Crab_, everything seems to be going well. 
20120627 11:11:53< Crab_> ok. and we should also find time to talk about your plans for the second part of the summer
20120627 11:12:08< neph> Crab_, about issues, I'm not currently aware of any, besides the one bug hanging on me on gna
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20120627 11:14:04< neph> before midterm I have to get a working prototype for Lua to access enemy attacks and fix that one bug
20120627 11:14:23< Crab_> I remember mattsc asking you about attacks
20120627 11:14:40< neph> yes, the attacks are up and running, he wasn't aware of tha
20120627 11:14:42< neph> that*
20120627 11:14:59< neph> the enemy attacks aren't quite there yet
20120627 11:15:11< Crab_> And, after midterm, since things are going well, you're going to work on some of your ideas, right? (so we should discuss those)
20120627 11:15:31< neph> yes, most probably
20120627 11:15:48< Crab_> So just ping me (email, or forum PM or here), when you'll be ready to discuss.
20120627 11:16:09< neph> Crab_, one thing, mattsc suggested introducing a filtering system for the CA's so that not all units are affected by the action
20120627 11:16:41< neph> he wanted this for one particular CA, but it seems to me, that making it generic is much better in our case
20120627 11:16:47< Crab_> well, CA's are not per-unit, in general
20120627 11:17:00< Crab_> but, actions which they do affect individual units, correct
20120627 11:17:17< Crab_> so, yes, we can try to introduce a third element to 'filter own units'
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20120627 11:17:41< Crab_> and, maybe, a fourth to 'filter enemy units', as well.
20120627 11:17:47< neph> Crab_, he just wanted to exclude some of the units from moving around. For single unit he seems to be using the slightly bugged behavior CA's
20120627 11:18:07< Crab_> but, if we make this global some candidate actions won't benefit from those...
20120627 11:18:46< Crab_> I think that, instead, it's better to allow a more-or-less uniform system to provide 'per-CA hints' for the CA.
20120627 11:19:10< Crab_> i.e. make it easy to, for example, let 'move units to targets' CA specify 'filter of own units'
20120627 11:20:08< Crab_> basically, it's about making 'evaluate' accept user-defined parameters.
20120627 11:20:10< neph> yes, that's what I thought too. that will still force us to hack around the C++ definitions
20120627 11:20:28< Crab_> yes, since the evaluate definitions for C++ candidate actions are in C++, we'll need to change those
20120627 11:21:06< neph> Matt also suggested a parameter passing system, I thought the two can and should be the same system
20120627 11:21:41< Crab_> for example, if CA was 'foreach own unit, if needs healing, go to village', then we would make it 'foreach unit in $UNITS, if it needs healing, go to village', where units would default to 'all own units'
20120627 11:22:40< Crab_> or, alternatively, we can make it 'foreach unit in $UNITS, if it has less than $PERCENTHP hp, go to village'
20120627 11:24:09< Crab_> a good way to do that would be to extend the existing design with a new subcomponent type
20120627 11:24:53< Crab_> basically, what we want is per-ca aspects
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20120627 11:36:13< CIA-87> ayne * r54473 /trunk/src/ (gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp playcampaign.cpp): 
20120627 11:36:13< CIA-87> Scenario transition refactoring
20120627 11:36:13< CIA-87> Carryover gold and recalls handled out of game
20120627 11:38:15< neph> Crab_, that would require some big changes to the code... Maybe we could move the current testing ai branch to something like ai default and work in the testing branch?
20120627 11:38:45< Crab_> I think that it can be done without many backwards-incompatible changes
20120627 11:39:21< Crab_> also, we can support only simple aspects without facets
20120627 11:39:43< Crab_> (with the availability of lua aspects, facets are not necessary and it'd be a good thing to somehow get rid of them)
20120627 11:40:06< Crab_> (at least 'don't use them by default for per-ca aspects')
20120627 11:45:05< Crab_> the default values of new per-ca aspects should just match 'current behavior'
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20120627 16:42:57< mattsc> hi, neph.  I tested the external CAs and it all works easy and well, with on-the-fly updating in debug mode.
20120627 16:43:11< Crab_> Great )
20120627 16:43:22< mattsc> What I cannot do right now (and which is really important) us my right-click testing in human-controlled mode of a side.
20120627 16:43:30< mattsc> hi, Crab_ 
20120627 16:43:43< Crab_> hi, mattsc
20120627 16:43:57< Crab_> And what's the problem with human-controlled mode?
20120627 16:44:04< mattsc> neph: didn't just say that you would make the ai table globally accessible in debug mode?  I think that's needed for this.
20120627 16:44:12< Crab_> note that there should be an AI for each side, even for human-controlled sides
20120627 16:44:56< mattsc> Crab_: yes, but the ai table does not seem to be defined in that case?  I think that's intentional and fine in normal mode, but in debug mode I need access to it through some means.
20120627 16:45:16< Crab_> the policy is "AI table should be created on first access to lua engine"
20120627 16:45:36< Crab_> so, if it doesn't work, it's a bug
20120627 16:45:42< neph> mattsc, what Crab_ said. Every side has it's own engine, therefore if we want global access to the ai tables, there should be a way to specify which one exactly do you wan't
20120627 16:45:56< mattsc> That's how it was previously, but it doesn't work that way any more.  Or at least I don't know how to do it.
20120627 16:46:53< mattsc> neph: Ok.  Umm, I just want access to the table so that I can test it.  How exactly doesn't matter really
20120627 16:46:56< Crab_> I guess that there's a need for wesnoth.debug_get_ai(X) function
20120627 16:47:08< Crab_> (exact name doesn't matter, but it should be debug-only)
20120627 16:47:41< neph> also, mattsc, you might want to read todays log, we discussed things that you are interested in
20120627 16:47:55< Crab_> the reason for debug-only would be the fact that AIs are local, so if WML wants to say something to the AI, it should do it via WML tags which are synced across replays, not by touching the ai table directly
20120627 16:48:11< mattsc> The only thing that would be very convenient would be that I don't have to change the CA code between debug and 'play' mode.
20120627 16:48:15< Crab_> but there's a valid use case if we want to use :lua or right-click stuff to do things in context of the lua ai
20120627 16:48:35< mattsc> Crab_: debug-mode only access to it is fine by me.
20120627 16:48:52< Crab_> I don't really care if it's 'enforced' to be available only in debug mode.
20120627 16:49:02< mattsc> neph: yes, I read that.  Crab_: did you see why I asked for the filter function (in the log yesterday)?
20120627 16:49:04< Crab_> it's just that the name and docs should say that it is debug only.
20120627 16:49:53< neph> i'm afk for a bit, i'll be here in about 30 minutes
20120627 16:51:14< Crab_> mattsc: yes, I know and I understand the use cases.
20120627 16:51:51< mattsc> Crab_: so I didn't miss a better way of doing this?  (I can make it work the way it is, but it's ugly...)
20120627 16:52:12< Crab_> mattsc: that's most cleanly solved by engine changes.
20120627 16:52:15< Crab_> mattsc: I agree that the 'standard' CAs should accept parameters to give you more flexibility.
20120627 16:52:38< mattsc> ok, that's great.
20120627 16:52:46< Crab_> and this is the intended development path, it's just that those things are moving slow 
20120627 16:53:09< Crab_> basically, what I want to do is to add per-ca aspect-like parameters
20120627 16:53:18< Crab_> for each standard CA where they make sense
20120627 16:53:58< Crab_> for attacks, we can limit what units can attack and/or be attacked, for recruiting, we might want to configure what units should be preferred to recruit (instead of old recruitment_pattern stuff)
20120627 16:54:29< Crab_> that way, for example, you'd be able to have what you want, or even have several instances of the same CA with different parameters.
20120627 16:55:31< mattsc> That would be very nice.  And there's really a lot of progress been made lately.  And I get the royal treatment here, being able to request (almost) whatever I want.  :)
20120627 16:56:08< Crab_> we benefit heavily from your feedback, as well :)
20120627 16:56:49< mattsc> cool
20120627 16:57:04< mattsc> neph (and maybe Crab_): one more question: what's a behaviour CA and why are they bugged?  I am just using the standard AI CAs.
20120627 16:57:39< Crab_> that's actually a good way to run GSOC for any sort of API/engine development, since there's a hard-working student, a lazy mentor, and an interested user involved, and it works out really nice :)
20120627 16:58:19< mattsc> It's good to be the mentor.  ;)  Or something.
20120627 16:59:30< Crab_> mattsc: behavior CAs are a way to attach lua code to individual units, with the CA disappearing when the unit dies. like that. ask neph for more details on why they're buggy 
20120627 16:59:54< mattsc> From my point it does seem to work very nicely.  I'll have a lot of changes to make to the code (and my wiki pages) once all of this is in place an 1.11.0 is out.
20120627 17:00:24< mattsc> Crab_: Oh, ok.  Right.  No, that is not at all what I am talking about.
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20120627 17:01:42< mattsc> And as far as I know, there's no bug with the BCAs themselves.  It's the [add_ai_behavior] tag that has a problem and I've provided the code for a fixed version (it's written in Lua).  All neph needs to do is accept it.  :)
20120627 17:02:14< mattsc> As long as one doesn't use that tag (which I don't), there's no problem.
20120627 17:03:09< Crab_> ok, I see
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20120627 17:04:03< mattsc> ... and the tag is just a shortcut to [modify_ai], so there's no need to use it either (although it can be convenient at times)
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20120627 17:15:10 * neph back
20120627 17:15:37< Crab_> neph: so, what's that issue with behavior CA's and that tag?
20120627 17:16:55< neph> Crab_, thing is, when I did it the first time, I forgot to think about what will happen during save/load routines. That's why I just used a counter that isn't stored anywhere for the identifiers of the CA's, since it seemed that there is no unique persistent identifier attached to units
20120627 17:17:36< Crab_> unit id is documented as unique and persistent
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20120627 17:17:59< mattsc> Crab_, neph: ok.  So that is what I was thinking about.  The code I provided in the bug report fixes that issue.
20120627 17:18:28< mattsc> Crab_: but you can attach several BCAs to one unit
20120627 17:18:34< mattsc> (I think)
20120627 17:18:56< Crab_> ah, I see. yes, in this case we need to add some extra identifier.
20120627 17:19:10< neph> Crab_, well, I was told by someone that it isn't, so I stuck a variable in the preload event that was globalizing the ai table(i know it's stupid now :( )
20120627 17:19:13< mattsc> Also, I recently found a case where the unit id is not unique (although that is a, filed, bug)
20120627 17:20:19< Crab_> which case?
20120627 17:20:28< Crab_> (I'll have to go now, sorry, but I'll read the logs)
20120627 17:20:42< mattsc> Anyways, as I said, I think I have fixed that issue.  It's worked on all tests I have done.  So you just need to see if it's ok that way.)
20120627 17:20:49< Crab_> ok
20120627 17:20:59< Crab_> bye
20120627 17:21:05< mattsc> Crab_: bug #19853
20120627 17:21:10< mattsc> bye
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20120627 17:22:21< mattsc> neph: when you fixed bug #19782 (which I tested and it works, thanks!), that also fixed #19798, so you can mark that as fixed also
20120627 17:22:41< neph> wait a sec
20120627 17:22:52< neph> wesbot, bug  #19782
20120627 17:26:34< neph> mattsc, ok, so, to confirm... The bca_id is used ONLY for manual removal of the CA. The C++ removes the dead unit bca's automatically
20120627 17:27:20< mattsc> neph: yes, that's what my testing showed back whenever that was.
20120627 17:27:57< neph> Since the removal is manual, auto generated id's aren't needed at all, so how about we force manual id perscription for every bca... the developer can keep track of them however he wants
20120627 17:29:04< neph> that will solve all issues  at once
20120627 17:29:51< mattsc> That's fine - but the method I use in that revised tag gives you the option of doing so or not, while still using a unique (and reproducible id) by default.  Is there anything wrong with that?
20120627 17:30:21< neph> well, as you said, once you assign more than one bca to a unit, you can only delete all of them at once
20120627 17:30:42< neph> oh actually
20120627 17:31:05< neph> if you just manually set the id's for the ones you are aiming to delete, then you can default the rest to the unit id yes
20120627 17:31:11< mattsc> no, in that case you _can_ use the id.  
20120627 17:31:17< neph> yes, you're right
20120627 17:31:17< mattsc> exactly
20120627 17:31:33< neph> ok, then that's that
20120627 17:31:47< mattsc> great
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20120627 18:58:12< Nephro> mattsc, can you share a scenario that uses BCA's so I can test it faster?
20120627 18:58:21< Nephro> I lost my test scripts for that thing
20120627 18:59:59< mattsc> Nephro: Do you have the AI Demos add-on installed?  Several scenarios in there use BCA's, so I could just point you to one of them.  (I don't think I have a separate BCA scenario other than those anyway.)
20120627 19:00:17< Nephro> yes, I have that pack
20120627 19:00:41< mattsc> ok, hold on.  I'll look for a good example.
20120627 19:02:04< mattsc> The BCA's are all defined in macros in utils/lua_macros.cfg
20120627 19:02:47< mattsc> And they are used in the 'Guardians' scenario
20120627 19:04:14< Nephro> ok, ty
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20120627 19:49:51-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 179 bugs, 339 feature requests, 16 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20120627 20:01:22< nephx> mattsc, does that scenario use the default wml tag?
20120627 20:01:49< mattsc> nephx: you mean [add_ai_behavior] ?
20120627 20:02:01< nephx> well, I mean that
20120627 20:02:02< nephx> function
20120627 20:02:17< nephx> the one that needed the change
20120627 20:02:35< nephx> function wml_actions.add_ai_behavior(cfg) -- this one
20120627 20:02:38< mattsc> no.  Because of the bug I am not using it.
20120627 20:04:09< mattsc> Looks like there's still an example on my wiki page though (I have deleted it in most other places):
20120627 20:04:12< mattsc> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Lua_AI_Howto#Behavior_.28Sticky.29_Candidate_Actions
20120627 20:04:51< nephx> mattsc, well, is that function needed at all then?
20120627 20:06:00< mattsc> Here's what I wrote to Crab about that earlier (sorry, I'm lazy):
20120627 20:06:02< mattsc> "... and the tag is just a shortcut to [modify_ai], so there's no need to use it either (although it can be convenient at times)"
20120627 20:06:12< nephx> well, anyways
20120627 20:06:16< nephx> I applied your patch
20120627 20:06:39< nephx> I don't know now whether I should commit it, though,
20120627 20:06:53< mattsc> So, no it's not strictly necessary, it just is a syntactical shortcut (or whatever those things are called)
20120627 20:07:11< nephx> it does some good things though
20120627 20:07:15< mattsc> Ok.  I have no strong opinion on it one way or the other.
20120627 20:08:05< mattsc> There are plenty of WML tags out there that could be done otherwise also, they just make something else easier.
20120627 20:08:17< nephx> mattsc, you should use
20120627 20:08:26< nephx> the [add_ai_behavior] tag
20120627 20:08:37< nephx> because it checks whether the unit exists at all
20120627 20:08:55< nephx> if you try adding a bca to a non-existing unit
20120627 20:08:59< nephx> it will probably segfault
20120627 20:09:08< nephx> that is, crash
20120627 20:09:14< mattsc> Sure.  That'd be a good reason...
20120627 20:09:30< nephx> that is the only difference between the tags
20120627 20:09:30< mattsc> I'm pretty sure I tried that at some point but forgot the result.
20120627 20:09:48< nephx> mattsc, it is either a crash to desktop or undefined behavior
20120627 20:09:51< nephx> which is even worse
20120627 20:21:31< CIA-87> nephro * r54474 /trunk/data/lua/wml-tags.lua: LuaAI: bugfix #19086
20120627 20:22:34< nephx> mattsc, I rewired your macros to [add ai behaviour] locally and it produced the same behavior, you should try it yourself, though, since I didn't get in to the depths of your implementation
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20120627 20:23:34< mattsc> nephx: Sounds good.  I'll do that (not right now though)
20120627 20:23:43< nephx> that change doesn't require recompilation btw
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20120627 20:25:52< mattsc> ok
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20120627 20:55:09< ivanovic_web> sorry folks, got problems with my bouncer which seems to be dead at least until i get to my parents for the weekend when i can have a closer look at the issue
20120627 20:57:18< loonycyborg> There's nothing more annoying than bouncer outage.
20120627 20:57:35< loonycyborg> Imagine how many interesting convos did you miss :P
20120627 21:00:51< ivanovic_web> jepp
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--- Log closed Thu Jun 28 00:00:08 2012