--- Log opened Mon Jul 30 00:00:02 2012
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20120730 03:14:16< vultraz> elias: weird error when using the wesnoth_addon_manager script, Espreon said to talk to you http://pastebin.com/JyEGX6XF
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20120730 03:37:26< shadowm> Alarantalara: Are you still able to build Qt 4 applications there?
20120730 03:37:46< Alarantalara> shadowm: Likely
20120730 03:38:52< shadowm> I may tag version 0.2.0 or Wesnoth RCX soon after some further testing; are you still interested in packaging it for Mac OS X?
20120730 03:38:59< shadowm> *of
20120730 03:39:14< Alarantalara> Sure, why not
20120730 03:39:35< shadowm> Okay.
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20120730 06:33:53< WilliamDecker> hello :)
20120730 06:34:25< shadowm> Hi there.
20120730 06:35:04< WilliamDecker> found this channel while reading wesnoth.org...as an aside I'm trying to get wesnoth to work on my new Nexus 7
20120730 06:35:44< shadowm> Hm, okay, but note that we don't provide support for the Android port in this channel, since we don't develop or maintain it.
20120730 06:35:49< Necrosporus> WilliamDecker, did you install other os or using android?
20120730 06:35:57< WilliamDecker> I have it for PC
20120730 06:36:05< WilliamDecker> er
20120730 06:36:30< WilliamDecker> I'm going to be using the work done by cjhopman's github
20120730 06:36:40< Necrosporus> shadowm, also android port seem payable somehow
20120730 06:36:55< WilliamDecker> yeah that confused me
20120730 06:36:56< shadowm> Necrosporus: Yes, I imagine it has to be playable.
20120730 06:37:06< Necrosporus> Is it even complying with GPL?
20120730 06:37:08< WilliamDecker> there is a free version, but a $4 version as well
20120730 06:37:15< Necrosporus> shadowm, I mean payable... paid
20120730 06:37:29< shadowm> Necrosporus: I think I've seen you in the forums?
20120730 06:37:42< Necrosporus> Yeah, but with other nickname
20120730 06:37:43< shadowm> Then you presumably have been able to use the search function to refer to previous posts on that matter.
20120730 06:40:01< Necrosporus> http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36471
20120730 06:40:04< Necrosporus> This thread
20120730 06:40:49< shadowm> I was hoping you'd enter "Android GPL" in the search box instead, like this: http://forum.wesnoth.org/search.php?keywords=Android+GPL&fid[0]=6
20120730 06:41:53< Necrosporus> The Android version is completely free - Wesnoth is GPL after all. You can obtain the sources, compile your own .apk and install and play. The $3.99 are only for having the game compiled for you and easy to download and install. There just happens to be some people who do the same for free for OSX and Windows. If someone makes free Android binaries available nothing will stop you from using those.
20120730 06:42:00< Necrosporus> I didn't
20120730 06:42:04< Necrosporus> But found this text
20120730 06:42:32< shadowm> Okay, then I guess you found your answer yourself. :)
20120730 06:43:15< WilliamDecker> time to make a free version for the play store! :)
20120730 06:43:32< shadowm> There's a wide-spread misconception about what Free software is; it's not strictly about being gratis.
20120730 06:43:39< Necrosporus> So there must be full version apk somewhere and using it without paying won't be even illegal
20120730 06:43:47< Necrosporus> I know that
20120730 06:44:16< shadowm> There doesn't have to be a compiled build provided at zero cost to comply with the GPL.
20120730 06:44:17< Necrosporus> But ones who require payment violate GPL frequently
20120730 06:44:55< WilliamDecker> I just want the thing to work on my Nexus 7, and with the help of #android-dev it'll probably happen :)
20120730 06:47:06< Necrosporus> >> Seriously... what's wrong with spending such a ridiculously low sum on such a great piece of software!?
20120730 06:47:28< Necrosporus> Well, to spend even 0.01 cent it's required to enter your credit card data on google site
20120730 06:47:36< Necrosporus> Which is not something I agree to do
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20120730 06:54:53< WilliamDecker> I'd pay the $4 if it actually worked on my device, but it doesn't
20120730 06:55:12< WilliamDecker> so first and foremost that'll be what I fix
20120730 06:56:20< shadowm> And I presume you'll make sure to provide cjhopman with the fix.
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20120730 06:59:18< Necrosporus> WilliamDecker, I do not like Nexus 7, it see to have Nvidia tegra
20120730 06:59:32< WilliamDecker> I love it because it's $200
20120730 06:59:35< Necrosporus> And nvidia has very poor linux driver support
20120730 06:59:56< Necrosporus> There's other tablets for 200 bucks or even cheeper but without tegra
20120730 07:00:26< Necrosporus> I'd suggest to find one with Mali-400 GPU
20120730 07:00:28< shadowm> That's got to be the first time I ever read that NVIDIA has poor Linux driver support.
20120730 07:00:50< Necrosporus> shadowm, nvidia drivers for tegra are only android ones
20120730 07:01:04< WilliamDecker> I'm quite happy with the Nexus 7, it's fantastic tbh
20120730 07:01:04< Necrosporus> And it's proprietary
20120730 07:01:07< Necrosporus> but there're proprietary drivers
20120730 07:01:18< shadowm> I assume that's a specific product line.
20120730 07:01:44< shadowm> I wouldn't know, because I've always been stuck with crappy Intel, ATI/AMD or VIA (!) IGPs.
20120730 07:01:53< Necrosporus> Is VIA bad?
20120730 07:02:02< shadowm> In a scale of 1 to 10...
20120730 07:02:12< shadowm> About -32767.
20120730 07:02:29< WilliamDecker> cute
20120730 07:02:35< Necrosporus> doesn't work at all? than it would be 0
20120730 07:02:44< shadowm> I don't really use that machine anymore.
20120730 07:02:50< Necrosporus> And if it works in vesa mode 640x480, it would be 1
20120730 07:02:52< shadowm> It's a mess with Windows, and basically unusable with Linux.
20120730 07:03:21< shadowm> A rating of 1 would assume there's some way to use the device's native functionality.
20120730 07:03:37< shadowm> Using VESA doesn't really qualify for that.
20120730 07:03:45< Necrosporus> nope, if you can set proper resolution it would be 3
20120730 07:03:52< shadowm> Well, not in my book.
20120730 07:04:03< shadowm> I am the one doing the rating, after all. :p
20120730 07:04:30< Necrosporus> anyhow -32767 doesn't fall into [1..10]
20120730 07:04:39< shadowm> Exactly.
20120730 07:04:42< WilliamDecker> lol
20120730 07:04:47< shadowm> It's so bad it cannot be rated.
20120730 07:10:51 * Necrosporus thinks 0 — doens't work at all, 1 — works only in vesa mode and support at least QVGA resolution, 2 — works somehow with native driver, but unable to set proper resolution but works with at least 1024x768 in vesa mode; 3 can use native screen resolution; 4 same but + at least 16 bit color; 5 — 32 bit color and basic 2D acceleration; 6 fully works with 2D acceleration; 7 basic 3D acceleration; 8 more or less advanced 3D,
20120730 07:11:07< WilliamDecker> you spent too much time on that :p
20120730 07:11:19< Espreon> Indeed...
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20120730 07:14:29< Necrosporus> possibly
20120730 07:15:24< shadowm> If you want to be serious like that, I'd rate GPU support as follows: 1 = No native modes, only VESA; 2 = Natives modes, no GL or D3D support; 3 = GL and D3D unstable, not fully-functional; 4 = same but slow, not fully-functional; 5 - 8 = same but performance and functionality varies; 9 = full functionality, more than acceptable performance; 10 = full functionality, hiehgest performance
20120730 07:15:46< shadowm> *highest
20120730 07:16:21< shadowm> *4 = same but slow instead of unstable, not fully-functional
20120730 07:16:44< shadowm> And 0 is just not likely to occur.
20120730 07:18:44< shadowm> That VIA IGP oscillates between 2 and 3 in that scale depending on what version of the openchrome stack is running at a given time, which is just par for the course because VIA has no actual open-source support strategy and no native proprietary drivers of its own, and openchrome stagnated for years (I heard rumors that's been improving as of late, but since my 2005-2006 IGP was still unsupported as of 2011 I haven't actually ...
20120730 07:18:50< shadowm> ... bothered to check).
20120730 07:19:52< shadowm> Well, unsupported in practice. It has been marked as supported for years already, but those people appear to have an extremely flexible definition of 'supported'.
20120730 07:20:09< shadowm> In any case it's all irrelevant because only losers like me get stuck with such a crappy entry-grade IGP.
20120730 07:23:12< Necrosporus> Well, since it works with native resolution, it must be considered as supported
20120730 07:23:35< Necrosporus> It's VIA, it's not for 3D
20120730 07:24:02< Necrosporus> Even if it somehow works, such devices should be considered usable for 2D stuff only
20120730 07:24:53< Necrosporus> shadowm, is it stable enough if you don't run 3D applications?
20120730 07:25:43< shadowm> Not necessarily.
20120730 07:26:22< shadowm> Last time I checked, just running glxinfo was enough for it to crash X.org and corrupt the processor's state until the next reboot.
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20120730 07:26:59< shadowm> Certain window managers like to trigger the same faulty path as glxinfo.
20120730 07:28:15< shadowm> Besides, 3D does work in Windows.
20120730 07:30:53< shadowm> It's obviously not for running the kind of games cool kids play nowadays (and none of my computers are really fit for the task anyway), but if some little D3D doesn't crash the thing on Windows, a series of diagnostic GL queries shouldn't do that on Linux.
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20120730 09:33:49< elias> vultraz: I think it means your TCP connection broke
20120730 09:36:41< vultraz> erm what?
20120730 09:36:52< elias> that error you pasted
20120730 09:37:40< vultraz> yeah. I er...dunno what TCP is 
20120730 09:37:52< elias> internet connection
20120730 09:38:00< vultraz> oh
20120730 09:38:20< vultraz> so it's the same as all these Remote Host Disconnected errors I'm getting from in wesnoth?
20120730 09:38:21< elias> maybe the addon server was restarted
20120730 09:38:32< elias> yeah, it's the same connection
20120730 09:38:45< elias> doesn't matter whether wesnoth makes it or the python script
20120730 09:38:51< vultraz> so...why do they keep coming up
20120730 09:39:49< vultraz> tried like half a dozen times, same thing
20120730 09:39:55< vultraz> (from wesnoth)
20120730 09:40:37< elias> do other bit downloads work normally?
20120730 09:40:39< elias> *big
20120730 09:41:09< vultraz> yeah, downloads seem fine recently, it's my uploads that are the problems
20120730 09:41:16< vultraz> problem*
20120730 09:41:46< elias> oh, it's an upload, didn't look close enough
20120730 09:43:02< elias> do you know if others can upload fine?
20120730 09:43:48< elias> might want to ask whoever maintains the addon server if there's any problems with it otherwise
20120730 09:44:32< vultraz> seems so, I've been asking Espreon to do uploads for me when mine don't work (almost every time I try something over ~3mb) and it works fine for him
20120730 09:45:25< elias> are you using wireless internet?
20120730 09:45:48< elias> could just be unstable connection in that case, I suppose
20120730 09:46:23< vultraz> yeah, wifi router plugged into dsl modem
20120730 09:46:33< shadowm> It's always felt to me like campaignd/SDL_net is less tolerant to slow clients than other applications for some reason.
20120730 09:47:26< vultraz> my upload speed isn't very fast, BTW. Around ~5kb/s IIRC
20120730 09:47:58< shadowm> Hopefully you mean kilobytes/second (KB/s)  O o
20120730 09:47:59< elias> shadowm: maybe the SDL_net receiver somehow has some low timeout
20120730 09:49:11< vultraz> er yeah, KB/s, I think....
20120730 09:49:23< vultraz> I always mix the abbrivs up
20120730 09:51:50< vultraz> I would probably say I can upload 1 MB per minute and download 100 MB per hour
20120730 09:53:38< shadowm> Yeah, if it were 5 kb/s it'd translate to around 0.6 KB/s
20120730 09:54:21< shadowm> Needless to say, it'd take a ridiculous amount of time to download 1 megabyte that way.
20120730 09:54:46< vultraz> my d/l speed is around ~30 KB/s
20120730 09:55:05< shadowm> s/download/upload/
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20120730 09:59:37< vultraz> so, basically I'm screwed unless I have faster internet?
20120730 10:00:25< shadowm> Very much like me when I have exceeded my monthly quota (except I am still able to do things normally between 00:01 and 17:59 then), yes.
20120730 10:01:07< vultraz> :S
20120730 10:01:14< shadowm> If you had access to a remote machine you could juggle files and commands there instead.
20120730 10:01:28< elias> maybe someone who knows SDLNet can increase the receive timeout
20120730 10:01:42< shadowm> I obviously mean a remote host with a significantly better link.
20120730 10:01:49< elias> 20120730 09:20:14 sending terms 124.109.10.221
20120730 10:01:49< elias> 20120730 09:26:57 client disconnect: Client disconnected 124.109.10.221
20120730 10:01:58< elias> ^ i see lots of lines like that in todays addon server logs...
20120730 10:02:02< shadowm> elias: Hm, that sounds extremely unlikely. Are there still any such people here? :p
20120730 10:02:23< elias> shadowm: dunno, wasn't a rewrite of the addon server using a more standard network receiver planned at some point?
20120730 10:02:35< elias> (i didn't really follow wesnoth development much the last few years :P)
20120730 10:02:38< shadowm> Yes, and it seems to have become our second HURD.
20120730 10:02:42< elias> heh
20120730 10:03:41< vultraz> what's the first, GUI2?
20120730 10:04:25< shadowm> It was loonycyborg's plan to switch to using Boost.asio in campaignd, but I don't know whether he'll still do anything about it with the major organizational fuck-up re the actual _new_ add-ons server project.
20120730 10:08:09< elias> heh, network.cpp is good example of C++ code... with almost no comments :P
20120730 10:08:27< elias> anyway, I'd suspect SDLNet is the problem, so not much that can be done with it
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20120730 11:11:23< CIA-87> ayne * r54910 /trunk/src/gamestatus.cpp: Fixed bug #19995
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20120730 12:12:38< CIA-87> ayne * r54911 /trunk/src/gamestatus.cpp: Fixed bug #19996
20120730 12:17:02< WilliamDecker> gj
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20120730 13:45:37< loonycyborg> shadowm: Nope. It's mordante who took campaignd. I took wesnothd :P
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20120730 14:08:44< loonycyborg> That said, I'll still have to do it if Mordante will get choked to death by his todo list :P
20120730 14:10:53< loonycyborg> todo lists are like boa constrictors..
20120730 14:26:03< CIA-87> alarantalara * r54912 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/03_Stirring_in_the_Night.cfg: Convert a pair of nearly identical events into a macro
20120730 15:22:42< AI0867> Necrosporus: you can create prepaid credit cards these days, on the internet. You can create a new one of each transaction, so no tracking.
20120730 15:25:02< Necrosporus> AI0867, how many free software project which require payment do you know?
20120730 15:25:19< Necrosporus> Also I do not want to use google market, as it's proprietary application itself
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20120730 15:25:32< Necrosporus> There's F-Droid instead
20120730 15:28:21< AI0867> several (on mobile systems), though I haven't used many
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20120730 22:31:17< mattsc> fendrin, around?
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20120730 23:08:50< fendrin> mattsc: yes
20120730 23:09:22< mattsc> fendrin: hi.  I'm at an airport with too much time to think ...
20120730 23:10:02< mattsc> I'd like to ask you some questions about the AI you're imagining.  Is this the acceptable place for this, or should we switch to a private channel?
20120730 23:10:51< mattsc> *an* acceptable place
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20120730 23:17:54< fendrin> mattsc: I think it is okay.
20120730 23:19:37< mattsc> fendrin: ok.  (I guess other people can yell at me if it gets too much)
20120730 23:20:07< fendrin> Well, the animal ai is not for mainline. 
20120730 23:20:20< fendrin> That is an addon that I plan for ages.
20120730 23:20:42< mattsc> ok.  Can we discuss it here anyway?
20120730 23:20:45< fendrin> Sure
20120730 23:21:25< mattsc> So... I'm thinking about this hunt-and-retreat AI you mentioned.  It's not a problem to do that at all, but there are variety of way this could be done.
20120730 23:22:16< mattsc> I imagine the hunting part similar to what the current 'big animal' AI does.  Wander around more or less randomly in a defined area of the map, and attack when an enemy comes within striking range.
20120730 23:22:45< mattsc> After a kill is made, retreat to a defined position for a certain number of turns or until fully healed, whatever is longer.  Does that sound about right?
20120730 23:22:55< AI0867> mattsc: I'd sooner yell at you if important information doesn't enter the logs due to private channels =P
20120730 23:23:13< mattsc> AI0867:  :)
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20120730 23:23:50< fendrin> Yes, it does.
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20120730 23:24:35< mattsc> I imagine that it should be possible to do this for different units on the same side (but with different "homes" and resting periods), and also if there are other units on the same side, which are controlled by the normal AI?
20120730 23:25:11< mattsc> "should": meaning it "is desirable that it also works ..."
20120730 23:25:13< fendrin> I thought most of the wildlife could be at the same side.
20120730 23:25:30< fendrin> Maybe one side represents all vegetarian animals.
20120730 23:25:47< fendrin> Another one represents the hunters.
20120730 23:26:08< mattsc> Well, the wildlife that the, say, dragon hunts (if any) needs to be on a different side than the dragon.
20120730 23:26:28< fendrin> And a third the very big predators that can even hunt the smaller hunters.
20120730 23:26:30< mattsc> But there could be several hunters on the same side.  Or some hunters and some allied units doing somethign else.
20120730 23:27:44< mattsc> Ok.  Sounds good.  I'll do that by attaching a behavior candidate action to the given unit then.  That will cover all the bases, I think.
20120730 23:28:23< mattsc> For the hunting itself: when an enemy unit comes into range, do you want a specific hunting behavior, or simply leave attacks to the normal RCA AI?
20120730 23:29:02< fendrin> Hmmm, might depend on the animal.
20120730 23:29:19< mattsc> Oh, and does the dragon go straight for potential prey, or wander and attack those he encounters while doing so?
20120730 23:29:50< mattsc> Currently: the "big animals" simply attack the weakest )lowest HP) unit in their attack range.
20120730 23:31:13< mattsc> Anyways, I think I have enough to go by for now.  It's easy to modify later, if that isn't what you're imagining.
20120730 23:31:35< mattsc> Anything specific you want me to do for the mainline campaigns you mentioned?
20120730 23:31:46< fendrin> Yes, there are several things.
20120730 23:33:06< fendrin> LoW 3 has that retreating option for the orcs, meaning they should defend their keeps in the hills until their reenforcement arrive.
20120730 23:33:19< fendrin> That never worked well.
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20120730 23:34:43< mattsc> Ok.  I'll have a look at that (it's a _long_ time since I played LoW).  Something like that can range from easy to very hard, depending on the setup and what exactly is desired.
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20120730 23:42:19< mattsc> fendrin: do you LoW scenario 3 or chapter 3?
20120730 23:42:25< mattsc> and in the latter case, which scenario?
20120730 23:51:47< mattsc> fendrin: I have to go catch my plane now.  I'll check the logs later, or drop me a PM if you have anything specific.
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--- Log closed Tue Jul 31 00:00:11 2012