--- Log opened Wed Aug 01 00:00:20 2012
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20120801 04:30:07< Necrosporus> I'm trying to compile wesnoth-1.0.2 on recent system
20120801 04:31:25< Necrosporus> sdl_ttf/SDL_ttf.c:51:38: fatal error: freetype/internal/ftobjs.h: No such file or directory
20120801 04:31:41< Necrosporus> So it's like file freetype/internal/ftobjs.h 's missing
20120801 04:31:41< shadowm> You ought to use the 1.0 branch from SVN then.
20120801 04:31:58< Necrosporus> shadowm, well... may you say what's that thing?
20120801 04:32:12< Necrosporus> I think I can try to use original src
20120801 04:32:34< shadowm> There's a couple of relevant fixes from 2009 in the 1.0 branch.
20120801 04:34:57< Necrosporus> I would like to finish compiling this thing, I already fixed few files adding missing headers like #include <limits.h>
20120801 04:35:25< Necrosporus> However, thanks for the hint, I probably should take a look at svn...
20120801 04:38:35< Necrosporus> http://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/
20120801 04:38:45< Necrosporus> I cant' find a link to repository here
20120801 04:38:53< shadowm> !repo
20120801 04:38:53< shikadibot> shadowm: Repository URI: http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth
20120801 04:39:05< shadowm> svn checkout http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/branches/1.0 wesnoth-1.10
20120801 04:39:18< shadowm> I mean wesnoth-1.0.
20120801 04:39:34< Necrosporus> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/branches/1.0/
20120801 04:39:52< Necrosporus> Why is it on gna while downloads on sourceforge?
20120801 04:40:14< shadowm> Probably unimportant.
20120801 04:41:36< shadowm> SourceForge.net is better equipped to deal with massive downloads in any case, and Subversion support there hasn't always existed.
20120801 04:42:05< shadowm> Wesnoth is an old project, for that matter.
20120801 04:51:11< Necrosporus> shadowm, done
20120801 04:51:15< Necrosporus> I seem to work
20120801 04:51:28< Necrosporus> This fix I asked for was the last one
20120801 04:51:33< Necrosporus> other I did myself
20120801 04:52:06< Necrosporus> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/branches/1.0/src/sdl_ttf/SDL_ttf.c?r1=8327&r2=39395
20120801 04:52:23< shadowm> Both already existed.
20120801 04:52:26< shadowm> I am aware.
20120801 04:53:58< Necrosporus> So there are few files to add #include <limits.h> one to #include <memory> and one to remove few lines and replace library->memory with NULL
20120801 04:54:06< Necrosporus> Not necessary to use svn
20120801 04:54:27< shadowm> Not sure what you are getting at. Most people wouldn't understand any of that.
20120801 04:54:55< shadowm> For most people, it's easier to download (somehow) a working source.
20120801 04:55:24< shadowm> (Also, it should be <climits> for C++ code, not <limits.h>.)
20120801 04:55:49< Necrosporus> I didn't get the difference between <word> stuff and <word,h> stuff
20120801 04:55:58< Necrosporus> * <word.h>
20120801 04:56:09< shadowm> One is a wrapper header provided by the C++ Standard Library, providing namespace aliases and stuff.
20120801 04:56:37< shadowm> The other is the real thing, which historicallly hasn't always been C++-aware.
20120801 04:57:10< Necrosporus> So my fix may fail on some older systems
20120801 04:57:49< shadowm> Not necessarily.
20120801 04:57:56< shadowm> The point is that duplicating efforts is bad.
20120801 04:58:09< shadowm> If someone fixed it already, you don't need to fix it again.
20120801 04:59:40< Necrosporus> But at least I got some experience with fixing old sources to compile on newer systems. What if there were something which have no svn but only a tarball
20120801 05:00:04< shadowm> Then that something presumably wouldn't be Wesnoth, and might take longer to fix.
20120801 05:00:34< shadowm> However, most things that large (and useful) tend to be published in some version control system nowadays, so you might still be able to find a fixed version.
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20120801 05:01:31< shadowm> Alternatively, someone might have posted a patch in some related (or not) mailing list or forum.
20120801 05:02:21< Necrosporus> Anyway, thanks for a hint, I wouldn't guess I need to replace library->memory with NULL myself
20120801 05:03:30< shadowm> As an alternative, you could also have taken both commits and applied them on top of the pristine 1.0.2 source tree.
20120801 05:04:26< Necrosporus> Yeah... I probably should learn how to use svn (I know only commands to download stuff, but not to do more advanced stuff)
20120801 05:14:39< Necrosporus> Interesting
20120801 05:14:54< Necrosporus> I think the tutorial from 1.0 is somehow better than modern one
20120801 05:16:37< shadowm> That's always been my opinion as well.
20120801 05:19:32< Necrosporus> Than why has it been changed?
20120801 05:20:03< shadowm> Because I obviously wasn't a developer when that happened/my opinion doesn't count for that matter.
20120801 05:22:33< Necrosporus> However there weren't an option to play with Lisar instead of Konrad
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20120801 05:35:36< Necrosporus> Interesting, arcane was previously holy
20120801 05:42:52< Necrosporus> Saves were binary files
20120801 05:42:59< Necrosporus> Now it's gzipped text
20120801 05:59:30< Necrosporus> I think old swamp texture were more swampous
20120801 05:59:40< Necrosporus> While other textures now seem much better
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20120801 07:02:55< Necrosporus> shadowm, do you know what's gate unit from 1.0? And also there's Cocatrice which unfortunately is no longer present (is it?)
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20120801 09:37:26< boucman> morning all
20120801 09:37:30< boucman> bloodycoin: around ?
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20120801 09:52:22< bloodycoin> hey boucman 
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20120801 09:53:10< boucman> how is it going ? did you manage to work the new algo in ?
20120801 09:54:24< bloodycoin> I did write one, and another is in tweaking stage... it acts a bit differently than in lua... and then I fell asleep :)
20120801 09:54:33< boucman> :)
20120801 09:55:28< boucman> ok, i'm still thinking how to do the effect follow unit thing, the thing is that animations work as expected, i.e they are terminated when they reach their end...
20120801 09:56:32< boucman> so either we make them "not end until really, really  necessary" that is: it would only terminate if the animation is invalid, not just if it is finished (for instance when the unit enters water)
20120801 09:57:22< boucman> or we need a way for the particle to survive the animation, but i'm a bit uneasy with that because i'm not sure what to do when the new animation has its own particle...
20120801 09:57:41< bloodycoin> well leaving effect active after animation is terminated is not a problem.. the problem is, how to know, which animation termination is the end of movement and which one is terminated in intermediate step in movement
20120801 10:00:56< boucman> bloodycoin: no, the problem is more generic than that, the new movement could have its own particle block....
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20120801 10:04:05< bloodycoin> I think that was one of the reasons, why I wanted to transfer particles from one effect to another... but now it wouldn't work anyway.
20120801 10:05:35< boucman> i'm not sure how that would have helped but ok...
20120801 10:06:38< boucman> it makes no sense to give an animation that hasn't asked for it an effect...
20120801 10:08:49< bloodycoin> nah... nvm.. now I know I wouldn't work on wesnoth, but I still think I will try it out somewhere else :)
20120801 10:10:15< bloodycoin> anyways... I think we see the same problem, but from a bit different point of views
20120801 10:10:36< boucman> :)
20120801 10:10:58< boucman> I mainly see the "how would it be programmed" and "what would it look like" what's your point of view ?
20120801 10:11:12< boucman> (programmed in WML, not the code side)
20120801 10:13:24< bloodycoin> I mean, to me it looks like you are looking from unit's and animation side, while I look from effects'
20120801 10:13:39< bloodycoin> if you understand what I mean ^^'
20120801 10:13:46< boucman> yeah, makes sense too :)
20120801 10:14:19< bloodycoin> not that, it's bad
20120801 10:14:22< boucman> i don't want to change the way the anim engine works right now, because i'm not sure it would solve the problem...
20120801 10:15:17< bloodycoin> neither do I
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20120801 10:17:06< bloodycoin> but somehow effects will have to exploit animation engine, to make them look as we think they should look :)
20120801 10:17:38< boucman> they mainly use the anim engine for ease of writing the WML and ease to synch anims and effects
20120801 10:20:02< bloodycoin> and... well, synch is an issue atm
20120801 10:21:22< boucman> i'm not sure effects should even survive animations... if the wml writer wants a long effect he can tweak the anim to make it longer...
20120801 10:22:23< boucman> the only idea that comes to mind seems a bit overkill...
20120801 10:22:26< Jetrel> Uh, in any sane engine, particles need to define animation-independent lifetimes.
20120801 10:22:40< boucman> hey Jetrel :)
20120801 10:23:15< Jetrel> I.e. they're separate entities spawned from a source, and once they leave the source, they're on their own.
20120801 10:23:46< boucman> Jetrel: our problem is when the source moves... should they follow the source ? in particular for units around the map
20120801 10:24:02< boucman> we have use cases for both "yes" and "no" 
20120801 10:24:35< Jetrel> If I have chunks of metal flying off an exploding robot, the chunks of metal should keep bouncing and clattering after the robot dies - but WITHOUT locking the game.
20120801 10:25:25< boucman> and if you have particles circling a mage and the mage moves on the map the circling particles should follow him
20120801 10:25:31< boucman> use cases for both :)
20120801 10:25:46< bloodycoin> also, boucman, if particles are coupled with animation too much, there could be no "after-effect" in non-following case
20120801 10:25:54< Jetrel> Right now in wesnoth we would have to put that in the tail end of, say, some death animation - if we wanted chunks of a magma monster to clatter across the ground, we'd need to make several seconds of dead time after the monster itself had been removed for the chunks to come to rest.
20120801 10:26:17< Jetrel> During all that time, the player would just be sitting there waiting for the animation to finish, which is why we don't do that.
20120801 10:26:47< boucman> yeah, blocking anims.. it's actually a very tricky problem
20120801 10:27:55< boucman> Jetrel: if we drop the "follow unit" entirely we're golden :)
20120801 10:28:11< Jetrel> >_<  Only because our engine is built around it.
20120801 10:28:31< boucman> ???
20120801 10:28:45< boucman> Jetrel: do you agree we need the follow unti or not ?
20120801 10:30:06< Jetrel> We don't (inherently) have this problem in frogatto - we created it artificially in a few places in the player character, but I've removed those.
20120801 10:30:42< Jetrel> In wesnoth, it's basically built around it because every player action requires you to wait until the action finishes animating before the game allows you to do anything else.
20120801 10:31:42< boucman> yeah, I know that limitation, it requires to be able to queue animations, it's actually very tricky... esp when you can't guess what animation to play, you need to queue the conditions that will be used to decide the animation later...
20120801 10:31:56< Jetrel> Yes.
20120801 10:31:58< boucman> but i'm not sure that's the problem here
20120801 10:32:25< Jetrel> No, it IS the problem - the entire engine is built around that.
20120801 10:32:52< Jetrel> I have wesnoth open right now - when I click on and open a menu, all other processing is paused.
20120801 10:33:14< boucman> when you open a menu you are not in the animation engine, that is not the subject at hand
20120801 10:34:17< bloodycoin> erm... effects currently play independantly from animations, it only uses animation data to start effect and kill it
20120801 10:34:37< Jetrel> boucman:   yes, it is - it's that the engine is manually controlled by a central loop rather than callbacks - this is like the difference in the event model between the classic mac os, and os X
20120801 10:34:42< bloodycoin> and I would prefer to keep it that way
20120801 10:36:39< Jetrel> One big monolithic control point, sending out commands to do things at fixed times, rather than things independently firing each other's functions to do things when appropriate.
20120801 10:37:20< boucman> Jetrel: this model wone't change, and it certainly won't change in this SoC, we're trying to get things done and need to stay focused on the point
20120801 10:37:36< boucman> how events are triggered are not an issue for animation writers. 
20120801 10:37:42< Jetrel> You're able to animate things in the background because the "monolithic controller" has them in it's own list, and sends them commands to do things at regular intervals, but only what is built-into it is able to happen.
20120801 10:38:27< Jetrel> boucman:  sure it is, because they can't do what's not provided by the engine.
20120801 10:39:02< boucman> Jetrel: if you need any new event to trigger an animation, just ask, i already mentionned multiple times that it's trivial to add. it's a single line of code somewhere...
20120801 10:39:09< Jetrel> If I decide to come up with an entirely new animation cue, you have to manually add support for it.
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20120801 10:39:39< zookeeper> if i had to choose between particles always following units and particles not following units, i'd rather have the latter. it would be nice to be able to choose though.
20120801 10:40:18< Jetrel> Like, if I wanted to - outside of healing animations, make the elvish shaman walk over to an ally, have them lie down, and have the shaman bandage them, you'd have to add things to support that.
20120801 10:41:32< zookeeper> i'm sure everyone's well aware of the limitations of the current architecture.
20120801 10:41:48< Jetrel> I can't just write my own function like "on_timer:  if( ne_hex.unit.team = me.team,  initiate_heal_anim(ne_hex_unit))"
20120801 10:42:26< Jetrel> I certainly am.
20120801 10:42:57< Jetrel> It's why there are a boatload of effect types I won't ever bother to make in wesnoth's current engine, because they basically can't be done.
20120801 10:45:54< Jetrel> Not ragging on the current system - it's marvelous for what it is.  But it is the type of design that it is, and that will always have inherent limitations.
20120801 10:48:26 * Jetrel is done.
20120801 10:49:22< boucman> except it can be done, but never mind...
20120801 10:51:49< Jetrel> (thanks, btw, sorry about grumbling there. :(  )
20120801 10:55:33< boucman> np :)
20120801 10:55:40< boucman> bloodycoin: back to the point :)
20120801 10:56:16< boucman> what I tend to do when I'm totally blocked by these kind of design problem is to... work on another area and come back to it later :D
20120801 10:56:37< boucman> so maybe we could look at adding effects to terrains when you're done with adding your existing ones 
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20120801 11:01:46< bloodycoin> boucman: mm... sounds like a plan... and for now we have non-following effects too..
20120801 11:02:50< boucman> :)
20120801 11:03:03< boucman> ok, ping me when you are done with ingegrating your effects
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20120801 19:49:51-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 186 bugs, 338 feature requests, 17 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20120801 20:11:08< Amy_> Hi there, I am a member of the press (Wired magazine) and I have artwork request for Battle for Wesnoth
20120801 20:14:07< Amy_> Is there an email address I can direct my press inquiry to? Thank you.
20120801 20:14:11< zookeeper> Jetrel, ^
20120801 20:15:28< zookeeper> Amy_, yeah, the developer mailing list is wesnoth-dev@gna.org
20120801 20:16:52< Amy_> Thank you!
20120801 20:17:38< zookeeper> of course, you can also ask about it here... hard to say whether that'd be enough, without knowing what you're going to request
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20120801 20:40:18< AI0867> looks like it's about their "app guide"
20120801 20:40:29< AI0867> unsure if that means iOS or android
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20120801 23:20:17< CIA-87> ayne * r54915 /trunk/src/ (9 files): 
20120801 23:20:17< CIA-87> Changed the way carryover info is stored in gamestate
20120801 23:20:17< CIA-87> Made wml_menu_items private
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--- Log closed Thu Aug 02 00:00:21 2012