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20120814 00:22:11< CIA-87> alarantalara * r54985 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/ (12 files in 2 dirs): Add defense and throw animation images for dark assassin, wire in defense only
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20120814 07:18:37< Nephro> Crab_, morning. Do you have some time to discuss the ca filters?
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20120814 09:27:07< CIA-87> nephro * r54986 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): LuaAI: wesnoth.debug_ai() slightly refactored, now provides access to the ai.* table, the Lua engine table and the component tree
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20120814 09:42:33< fendrin> AI0867: The [map]  tag is able to override the border_size and usage= attributes of the map referenced from it.
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20120814 12:21:42< Crab_> neph: hello. online now, will have time in ~30 minutes (and till evening)
20120814 12:45:51< neph> ok i'll reboot
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20120814 13:10:37< Nephro> Crab_, about the unit filter for the move_to_targets phase: do you think that just checking whether the unit is in the filter vector inside choose_move() will make the performance much worse? Assuming filters will usually be small I think it's not that bad. Of course, we can try linearising the algorithm, but that will change the behavior of the AI and scenarios(especially mainline) can suffer balance issues because of that
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20120814 13:25:15< Crab_> Nephro: so, I'm free now and for next ~6h. ping me when you'll want.
20120814 13:25:50< Nephro> Crab_, I messaged you just before you dropped out
20120814 13:26:18< Nephro> reposted in private
20120814 13:27:28< Crab_> yes, I think that it would make the performance much worse. you can do it and test on a big map with tens of units
20120814 13:27:48< Crab_> but, it's possible to rework the algorithm without changing behavior
20120814 13:28:24< Crab_> i.e., with 40 own units, the filter would be evaluated up to 1600 times with current algorithm, and only up to 40 for linear case
20120814 13:30:42< Crab_> i.e., you can make a 'list of unit locations for units which pass the filter', and then iterate over that list once (removing map locations after moving).
20120814 13:31:10< Crab_> it'll be linear, with the same behavior (as before, we disregard WML moveto effects in that phase)
20120814 13:34:32< Nephro> Yes, I thought of that too. I could just pass a filtered list of our units to choose_move
20120814 13:34:44< Crab_> yes, exactly. and cache that list
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20120814 13:35:08< Crab_> i.e. 'our units with remaining moves > 0 which satisfy the filter'
20120814 13:35:28< Nephro> Crab_, also, what would be a good way of defining the filter and passing it to the phase?
20120814 13:36:34< Crab_> each CA is inside a [candidate_action] block
20120814 13:36:51< Crab_> that block is passed to CA's constructor, and that block is serialized in to_config()
20120814 13:37:08< Crab_> just add a [subtag] for filter
20120814 13:37:45< Crab_> ask around for a good name, or use a name similar to what's used in other tags
20120814 13:37:54< Crab_> i.e. [filter_own] comes to mind, but other names are possible, as well
20120814 13:38:15< Crab_> that's the best way for passing something one-CA-specific to CA.
20120814 13:38:48< Nephro> but the hardcoded c++ ca's aren't added using that syntax, iirc, macros are used instead. That would require the customizer to write down some boilerplate
20120814 13:40:00< Crab_> not much. only aspect raw syntax is bad enough
20120814 13:40:10< Crab_> raw WML syntax for adding candidate actions is quite sane
20120814 13:40:20< Crab_> especially since they can still use a helper macro to hide the [modify_ai] part
20120814 13:41:21< Crab_> (I'm about the MODIFY_AI_ADD_CANDIDATE_ACTION macro )
20120814 13:41:24< Nephro> ok, everything seems pretty clear at this point
20120814 13:41:29< Nephro> I got it, yes :)
20120814 13:41:59< Crab_> great
20120814 13:42:02< Nephro> I'll ping you next time, when an implementation is ready then(or I got stuck)
20120814 13:42:17< Crab_> also note that mattsc asked for more documentation on debug access to ai structures
20120814 13:42:57< Nephro> Yes, I saw that and fixed the functionality. I'll also provide more docs before i touch the ca part
20120814 13:43:59< Crab_> great. it's always better to write docs in small pieces, piece by piece
20120814 13:44:12< Crab_> it's easier this way. i.e a piece a day, and then, at the end, you almost have it done :)
20120814 13:44:32< Crab_> mattsc said that he can organize it for you later, but he needs the 'raw' docs.
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20120814 14:54:52< Ayne> hi Crab_
20120814 14:55:33< Ayne> I'm getting ready to commit. What will the next step be, aside from fixing anything that might not initially work and writing the wiki page?
20120814 14:55:55< Crab_> hi, Ayne
20120814 14:56:14< Crab_> have you tested in multiplayer mode?
20120814 14:56:36< Crab_> if not, it might make sense to test there (you can run a local server, and run 2+ wesnoth clients)
20120814 14:56:53< Ayne> only in local mode, but I can test that before I commit
20120814 14:57:21< Crab_> it might make sense to test, just to see if anything is too broken.. and commit
20120814 14:57:31< Ayne> yes, ok
20120814 14:58:08< Crab_> and, we have 3 more working days left in the timeline
20120814 14:58:56< Crab_> probably, the best way to use the time would be for me to review the resulting code after the commit, to see if there's any low-hanging fruit in there that can make the code better.
20120814 14:59:21< Crab_> and for you, meanwhile, to write the wiki pages on the new savegame format and on the new carryover process
20120814 15:02:43< Ayne> Does it make sense to test multiplayer mode between different versions or should I focus on testing it with only the current version?
20120814 15:03:21< Crab_> no; the only place where we should touch the old version are the old save games and replays
20120814 15:03:42< Crab_> i.e., test only with new code running; but old data in form of replays and saves can still be around
20120814 15:03:58< Crab_> MP server is usually configured to only accept clients running the same version
20120814 15:04:10< Crab_> since different versions can go OOS easily
20120814 15:04:24< Ayne> I have tested local multiplayer and singleplayer saves from version 1.10 and current trunk, they look alright
20120814 15:04:57< Crab_> that's great
20120814 15:05:03< Crab_> and replays?
20120814 15:05:11< Ayne> as well
20120814 15:05:53< Crab_> overall, the most important thing to check is the old start-of-scenario save for single-player.
20120814 15:06:11< Crab_> since we want people to carry over their progress in campaigns, where possible, when new wesnoth version is available
20120814 15:06:23< Crab_> replays frequently break between major releases anyway...
20120814 15:06:59< Crab_> and we also need to be sure that new savegames contain the info you expect them to contain (the info you'll describe on the wiki)
20120814 15:07:21< Ayne> obviously I may have missed something, but I've checked for everything that has been mentioned in bugs so far, and carryover and menu items are there and replays look the way I would expect them to
20120814 15:08:29< Crab_> that's great. I'll take a look at the resulting code once you commit
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20120814 15:09:22< Crab_> Ayne: also, if you want, (that's totally optional, and fun), you can do a trick
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20120814 15:09:45< Crab_> Ayne: add an button or a command to restart a single-player game in different difficulty level
20120814 15:10:52< Crab_> Ayne: you should be able to do so quite easily, using the results of your refactoring made during the summer.
20120814 15:11:30< Crab_> Ayne: it's not required, but I thought that it might be fun doing (and, later, it can be included in wesnoth, as well)
20120814 15:12:06< Ayne> That reminds me, something I wanted to talk about. I haven't added any code to notify the player if loading a safe fails yet, as I wasn't sure what the best way to do that would be
20120814 15:12:36< Crab_> you can throw an correct exception, it should be caught by the loading code and present a dialog message to user
20120814 15:13:18< Crab_> maybe wml_exception will go, maybe something other
20120814 15:14:08< Crab_> ping me if you'll not be able to find; I'll help, then.
20120814 15:14:12< Ayne> ok
20120814 15:14:15< Ayne> thanks
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20120814 16:03:28< mattsc> Hi, Nephro
20120814 16:04:25< mattsc> I'm only here for a few minutes, then I'll be offline for the rest of today and tomorrow
20120814 16:08:08< mattsc> I compiled your commit r54986 from earlier today, thanks for doing that, but I don't see the ai table in wesnoth.debug() now.  The data table is there though (don't remember if that was like that already last time)
20120814 16:08:30< mattsc> Also: Crab_  had a couple questions a few days ago:
20120814 16:08:59< mattsc> Can evaluation and execution functions of a CA be called separately?
20120814 16:09:27< mattsc> Can you run through the RCA loop once (as opposed to running the whole RCA stage until it is done)?
20120814 16:13:20< mattsc> I have to be off.  Let me know when you have the documentation up and I'll do some testing.
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20120814 16:42:41< Ayne> Crab_: What happens if we load an old ingame save that has carryover_sides, but not carryover_sides_start? If we use that as carryover_sides_start if would have the wrong data, but if we leave it empty then carryover_sides_start can't be used as main copy. Should I just keep carryover_sides as main copy and make sure that carryover_sides_start is written whenever possible?
20120814 16:44:42< AI0867> fendrin: does it also allow them to be absent?
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20120814 16:51:19< Crab_> Ayne: I think that the amount of saves with carryover_sides but without carryover_sides_start is very small and we can ignore those
20120814 16:51:30< Crab_> Ayne: since carryover_sides was added to you just recently, right?
20120814 16:51:57< Ayne> end of June I think, yes
20120814 16:52:02< Crab_> so, you need to read saves from released stable/dev versions
20120814 16:52:14< Crab_> but, there's no dev version yet for 1.11
20120814 16:52:25< Crab_> there would be just-after-gsoc (see wesnoth-dev mailing list)
20120814 16:52:41< Crab_> so, you only need to read 1.10 saves, and they have no carryover_sides
20120814 16:53:05< Crab_> so, you're free to change your implementation to be the cleanest one possible, and the fact that you've added carryover_sides first shouldn't force your hand.
20120814 16:53:25< Ayne> ok
20120814 16:53:31< Crab_> so, you can just disregard the need to open saves saves without carryover_sides_start, but with carryover_sides present.
20120814 16:54:07< Crab_> be sure that all new games end up with carryover_sides_start (even 1st scenario of campaign should have it)
20120814 16:54:11< Crab_> (for consistency)
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20120814 16:58:33< Ayne> I'm creating an empty carryover_info and saving it in carryover_sides_start in the gamestate default constructor. That way carryover_sides_start contains rng and the default variables even in the first scenario
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20120814 17:06:26< Crab_> great
20120814 17:06:45< Crab_> but, if you're treating carryover_sides_start as master, you should do the reverse, right?
20120814 17:06:56< Crab_> ah, sorry, all's ok :)
20120814 17:07:33< Crab_> and, are you actually doing the carryover transition in the first scenario?
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20120814 17:14:13< Ayne> you mean carryover to level?
20120814 17:14:20< Crab_> yes
20120814 17:15:08< Ayne> well, it should call the function. Obviously except for the rng there's not much to transfer
20120814 17:15:23< Crab_> Good. The reason for that is that first scenario should be as normal as possible
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20120814 17:16:02< Crab_> for example, when we're creating an MP game, the mp code modifies the level directly
20120814 17:16:22< Crab_> but, a precondition to having the level is to 'run the preprocessor first'
20120814 17:16:37< Crab_> that blocks difficulty selection in MP (unless we reparse the level again later)
20120814 17:17:02< Crab_> and, if we'll later modify the code to put things not in level but in carryover, we'll be able to delay the modification of the level
20120814 17:17:13< Crab_> thus, enabling the mp setup code to actually allow difficulty level selection
20120814 17:27:24< Crab_> Ayne: so, as you see, cleaning that mess with transitions allows Wesnoth to add some new features which were non-trivial before
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20120814 19:54:09< mordante> servus
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20120814 20:02:46< anonymissimus> mordante: do you know of other good tools for static code analysis such as cppcheck, which shoudl be free and especially can supplement a project only compilable in MSVC ?
20120814 20:03:47< anonymissimus> I'd like to get some of gcc's warnings that is
20120814 20:04:40< mordante> anonymissimus, what's wrong with cppcheck?
20120814 20:06:17< anonymissimus> nothing
20120814 20:07:07< anonymissimus> I'm asking for more, since it appears to assume that people already compile with gcc, clang and such 
20120814 20:12:21< mordante> true
20120814 20:12:30< mordante> can't you cross compile with mingw?
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20120814 20:26:27< timotei> anonymissimus: try PVS :P
20120814 20:30:56< timotei> anonymissimus: Do you Germans learn about Hottentottenstottertrottelmutterbeutelrattenlattengitterkofferattentater ?
20120814 20:32:42< Crendgrim> timotei: I know it as Hottentottenpotentatentantenattentäterbeutelrattenbretterkottenbretterretter.
20120814 20:32:55< Crendgrim> (and, no, not gonna translate the story to that name :p )
20120814 20:34:20< mordante> Crendgrim, do you have a link to the story?
20120814 20:35:21< Crendgrim> neither. I learned it once, didn't ever read it somewhere on the Internet
20120814 20:37:18< mordante> meh google doesn't know it either
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20120814 21:04:44< anonymissimus> mordante: cross-compile: due to requiring the MFC classes I certainly think that compiling with anything else than MSVC is a futile task
20120814 21:05:10< anonymissimus> so porting to something is no option
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20120814 21:06:02< anonymissimus> timotei: hotten etc: no, and it sounds like something I dislike and don't care about
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20120814 21:09:26< mordante> anonymissimus, ok, no then I've no other suggestions
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20120814 21:17:24< mordante> I'm off bye
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20120814 21:28:07< anonymissimus> timotei: what limitations does "download and try" have ?
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20120814 22:08:14< timotei> Crendgrim, mordante: There you go: http://ask.metafilter.com/99285/Help-me-find-this-funny-story-about-the-German-language
20120814 22:08:18< timotei> The second post :)
20120814 22:08:50< timotei> anonymissimus: MFC? For what?
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--- Log closed Wed Aug 15 00:00:52 2012