--- Log opened Wed Aug 15 00:00:52 2012
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20120815 04:31:52< celticminstrel> Hm. I wonder how I can have an event trigger when someone moves close enough to a guardian unit for it to "see" you, without using shroud or fog. Moveto with a radius filter is the most obvious choice, but doesn't account for move costs.
20120815 04:34:57< Gambit> potentially use lua's pathfinding stuff to create your own conditional tag
20120815 04:40:06< celticminstrel> Wait, if I enable fog on the AI's side, would that work with the sighting macro?
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20120815 06:27:30< celticminstrel> Why does it become unresponsive after uploading an add-on. :(
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20120815 07:28:44< igorko> hi. Anyone from admins here?
20120815 07:34:41< Gambit> Not at this hour, but odds are you don't need them.
20120815 07:34:44< Gambit> igorko: What's up?
20120815 07:35:21< igorko> i need someone to add ukrainian manual link to http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothManual
20120815 07:35:47< igorko> it's read only
20120815 07:36:50< Espreon> igorko: The Ukranian version doesn't exist yet.
20120815 07:37:00< Espreon> wesnoth-manual's probably not translated enough.
20120815 07:37:19< Espreon> I believe the threshold for generation is 80%
20120815 07:38:01< igorko> aha, so it will be added automatically?
20120815 07:38:15< igorko> I'm finishing translation
20120815 07:39:17< Espreon> The links need to be manually added after the manuals are generated.
20120815 07:57:01< igorko> Espreon: hello. One question. Seems it was already discussed. I have $friends, $gold warnings in singular. These can be ignored, right?
20120815 07:59:46< Espreon> What exactly are you talking about?
20120815 08:00:12< igorko> warnings you gave me
20120815 08:00:39< Espreon> Just a moment.
20120815 08:00:52< igorko> don;t have them here though
20120815 08:04:21< Espreon> igorko: msgstr[0] for those strings is apparently used for all numbers that end in "1"
20120815 08:04:24< Espreon> ... not just "1"
20120815 08:04:45< igorko> i see now
20120815 08:04:55< igorko> thanks
20120815 08:05:04< Espreon> Yup.
20120815 08:05:11< igorko> so i anyway should use number
20120815 08:06:07< Espreon> No, you should still use the variable.
20120815 08:07:14< igorko> I mean use number from digits but not word ;)
20120815 08:07:19< Espreon> Ah.
20120815 08:14:55< Espreon> igorko: Now, if you don't want to have a numeral used in cases where there's only one involved, you could have four msgstrs... and have one dedicated to cases involving 1.
20120815 08:15:38< Espreon> But to do that, you'd need to replace the Plural-Forms lines in the pos for wesnoth and wesnoth-lib.
20120815 08:17:35< igorko> no, i will not bother with that
20120815 08:18:13< Espreon> All right.
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20120815 10:18:32< Drakefriend> Hello
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20120815 15:02:25< celticminstrel> …is it my imagination, or is it possible to use a macro before it is defined as long as it is within the definition of another macro?
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20120815 15:43:42< zookeeper> celticminstrel, uh... i have no idea. i'd guess no, but i don't understand the inner workings well enough to say.
20120815 15:45:55< celticminstrel> Asking because I seem to have such a situation and the game did not complain.
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20120815 16:21:23< Necrosporus> Why is there single walking corpse unit while different walking corpses have different stats?
20120815 16:21:43< Necrosporus> (and same for soullesses)
20120815 16:21:54< celticminstrel> Because they're all walking corpses?
20120815 16:23:10< Necrosporus> But skeletons are all skeletons and there are many skeleton units
20120815 16:23:18< celticminstrel> Not true.
20120815 16:23:34< loonycyborg> There are no ingame ways to make skeletons from units.
20120815 16:23:36< celticminstrel> A Skeleton is quite a different thing from a Draug.
20120815 16:24:11< celticminstrel> Whereas a bat zombie and a goblins zombie are, fundamentally, still both zombies.
20120815 16:24:14< loonycyborg> While you can make walking corpses with Plague ability.
20120815 16:25:09< Necrosporus>  But bat zombie can fly and goblin's can't
20120815 16:25:22< celticminstrel> So?
20120815 16:25:57< Necrosporus> They have different stats but if you press d on any corpse you would get just human corpse stats
20120815 16:26:06< Necrosporus> Or give walking corpse traits
20120815 16:26:18< celticminstrel> You can get all the specific stats on the sidebar.
20120815 16:26:20< Necrosporus> Like "human", "goblin"
20120815 16:26:29< zookeeper> well the trait idea isn't a bad one, actually
20120815 16:26:42< celticminstrel> Traits wouldn't really accomplish the same goal...
20120815 16:27:34< zookeeper> personally i've always felt that the whole business with WC variations is a huge mistake in the first place. no one just wants to get rid of them anymore because so much effort has been invested in them yadda yadda.
20120815 16:27:43< celticminstrel> I seem to see a hint of a way to publish add-on updates without starting Wesnoth...
20120815 16:27:59< Necrosporus> Maybe than there should be specific trait like things which can have a value from list, like zombie_type=human
20120815 16:28:24< celticminstrel> I don't really see what's so wrong about them...
20120815 16:28:55< celticminstrel> Although I kinda think it'd be nice if d can handle variations in a logical way.
20120815 16:29:05< Necrosporus> It's single unit type which can have different stats and different appearance
20120815 16:29:17< celticminstrel> It has unifying features.
20120815 16:29:36< Necrosporus> Skeletons, again, all are skeletons
20120815 16:29:53< Necrosporus> But there are at least skeleton and skeleton archer
20120815 16:29:56< Necrosporus> Differnet units
20120815 16:30:07< celticminstrel> But there's a major difference between a Skeleton and a Skeleton Archer. Not so with two different types of zombies.
20120815 16:30:20< Necrosporus> So zombie and zombie riders should be as well different units
20120815 16:30:47< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, zombie goblins and zombie bats differ significally
20120815 16:30:53< celticminstrel> I expect having them as one unit also simplifies the plague ability.
20120815 16:30:56< Necrosporus> First can't move over water
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20120815 16:31:09< celticminstrel> I know how they differ, thanks.
20120815 16:31:18< Necrosporus> That's true, but I think plague should be more specific
20120815 16:31:23< celticminstrel> Hitpoints, move type, move points.
20120815 16:31:28< celticminstrel> And everything else is the same.
20120815 16:31:32< Necrosporus> Ah, actually they submerge... or not?
20120815 16:31:48< celticminstrel> No, only skeletals (except Death Knight) get submerge.
20120815 16:32:16< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, what everything else? movement type and movepoints is a very significant difference
20120815 16:32:30< celticminstrel> Move points isn't that significant.
20120815 16:32:43< Necrosporus> Why can't zombies submerge?
20120815 16:32:43< Necrosporus> Ok, mps is not
20120815 16:32:45< Necrosporus> But movement type is
20120815 16:32:51< celticminstrel> But it's true that movement cost, resistance, and defense is somewhat significant.
20120815 16:33:32< celticminstrel> "Everything else" is attacks, advancement, race, and arcane vulnerability.
20120815 16:33:37< Necrosporus> If I would make a unit system, I'd rather make primordial unit get special traits from plague
20120815 16:33:42< celticminstrel> Oh and fearless.
20120815 16:34:02< celticminstrel> I don't think I'd do that.
20120815 16:34:25< Necrosporus> So if archer got plague it would became zombie archer...
20120815 16:34:40< Necrosporus> or not?
20120815 16:34:42< celticminstrel> That makes plague a lot better, though. :P
20120815 16:37:06< Necrosporus> And different types of plague would be nice
20120815 16:37:20< celticminstrel> If you did that, it basically would become an "I'm stealing your units" ablity.
20120815 16:37:20< Necrosporus> Like vampire plague separate from zombie plague
20120815 16:37:29< celticminstrel> They exist in add-ons.
20120815 16:37:39< celticminstrel> I used a ghost plague in my campaign.
20120815 16:37:47< Necrosporus> I know, but it's all called "plague"
20120815 16:37:49< celticminstrel> Though only one enemy got it.
20120815 16:37:52< Necrosporus> Which one?
20120815 16:38:09< celticminstrel> Explain your last statement?
20120815 16:38:13< celticminstrel> Not the question.
20120815 16:38:20< Necrosporus> Which one campaign?
20120815 16:38:35< Necrosporus> I know there's a campaign for vampires
20120815 16:38:57< Necrosporus> Abiilty of some vampires is called plague instead of "vampirism"
20120815 16:39:16< Necrosporus> But its different ability
20120815 16:39:18< celticminstrel> If you go to the add-on server and type "druid" you should find mine. It's not one where you play undead, if that's what you were hoping.
20120815 16:39:36< celticminstrel> What does that plague do? Make vampires?
20120815 16:39:55< Necrosporus> Make enemy unit lvl0 vampire
20120815 16:40:06< Necrosporus> Which doesn't get plague
20120815 16:40:10< Necrosporus> But can advance
20120815 16:40:17< celticminstrel> So yes, they just got lazy and used the existing macro for extended plagues.
20120815 16:42:59< celticminstrel> On an unrelated note, there should be a block form of "wmllint: ignore". :|
20120815 16:43:33< Espreon> # wmllint: start ignoring
20120815 16:43:37< Espreon> # wmllint: stop ignoring
20120815 16:43:46< Espreon> If that's what you meant.
20120815 16:43:52< celticminstrel> I thought that existed, but I couldn't find it in the wmllint source...
20120815 16:46:11< celticminstrel> Oh wait. It looks like that's what markcheck on/off does,
20120815 16:46:14< celticminstrel> ^.
20120815 16:48:39< celticminstrel> …what on earth is "nonstandard word-wrap style within message" when the message is in a variable?
20120815 16:50:21< celticminstrel> Also, it seems wmllint doesn't like aspect IDs.
20120815 16:50:31< Necrosporus> Is there difference between traits and abilities?
20120815 16:50:36< celticminstrel> Yes.
20120815 16:50:39< Necrosporus> like quick and leadership
20120815 16:50:44< Necrosporus> What's it?
20120815 16:51:14< celticminstrel> Traits are variations of the basic stats that are reapplied every time the unit levels up.
20120815 16:51:46< celticminstrel> Abilities are unusual skills the unit have that aren't directly related to attacking.
20120815 16:51:58< Soliton> celticminstrel: you can publish add-ons with the wesnoth_addon_manager, an external python script.
20120815 16:52:08< celticminstrel> They aren't reapplied when the unit levels up, so you can lose an ability when levelling.
20120815 16:52:18< Necrosporus> But is there difference in code, or custom trait and custom abilities won't differ at all?
20120815 16:52:37< celticminstrel> Soliton: Is there documentation for that apart from 'wesnoth_addon_manager -h'?
20120815 16:52:55< celticminstrel> Necrosporus: They're very different in code too.
20120815 16:52:56< Soliton> no idea.
20120815 16:53:12< Necrosporus> But it's listed in same list
20120815 16:53:18< celticminstrel> No it isn't...
20120815 16:53:20< Necrosporus> on side panel
20120815 16:53:30< celticminstrel> Traits are on one line, abilities on another.
20120815 16:53:52< celticminstrel> If you have more traits, they won't wrap around; you'll get a '…' instead.
20120815 16:54:04< Necrosporus> How to see traits which doesn't fit the line if a unit got many?
20120815 16:54:15< celticminstrel> Just hover over the '…'
20120815 16:54:29< Necrosporus> It didn't work last time
20120815 16:54:35< celticminstrel> What version?
20120815 16:54:44< Necrosporus> 1.10.3 
20120815 16:54:51< celticminstrel> Works for me.
20120815 16:55:09< celticminstrel> It does rely on the traits having a proper description, probably.
20120815 16:55:39< celticminstrel> Anyway, traits can only do the things listed here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EffectWML
20120815 16:56:03< celticminstrel> Whereas abilities can do what's listed here without any extra work: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AbilitiesWML
20120815 16:56:17< celticminstrel> And with some additional work, they can do almost anything you want.
20120815 16:56:53< celticminstrel> (Note, the second link also lists weapon specials, which are certainly not the same as abilities.)
20120815 16:58:03< celticminstrel> (Though you probably knew that.)
20120815 16:59:27< Necrosporus> specials apply only to attack of specific weapon 
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20120815 17:01:04< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20120815 17:01:35< celticminstrel> They are however quite similar to abilities in some ways, since there are a limited number of things that are easy to do, but you can do almost anything with some additional work.
20120815 17:02:08< celticminstrel> Looking at EffectWML, it seems that you could actually do the walking corpse variations with traits, with the probable exception of the graphical side.
20120815 17:03:06< celticminstrel> ie, traits can affect hitpoints, movement points, movement costs, defense, and resistance, which is everything mechanical that changes between the variants.
20120815 17:04:02< celticminstrel> However it'd be more complicated that way, since traits can't directly change the movetype, so you'd have to re-encode each movetype just for the zombies.
20120815 17:05:05< Necrosporus> so it would be abilities rather?
20120815 17:05:10< celticminstrel> Huh?
20120815 17:05:28< celticminstrel> You can't do the variants with abilities.
20120815 17:05:45< celticminstrel> Abilities are special skills. Traits are a set of alterations to the base unit.
20120815 17:06:40< celticminstrel> Traits can do anything an ability does by adding an invisible ability, but abilities can't do anything a trait can do.
20120815 17:07:03< celticminstrel> (By invisible ability, I mean one that's not shown in the sidebar.)
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20120815 17:08:08< Necrosporus> image_mod: modify the image path function(ImagePathFunctionWML) of all the unit's frames.
20120815 17:08:08< Necrosporus>     replace: replaces the image path function(s) to be used, e.g. "RC(magenta>red)" 
20120815 17:08:37< celticminstrel> That can't change the sprites.
20120815 17:08:50< Necrosporus> why?
20120815 17:08:53< celticminstrel> It can only tweak them, for example tinting them orange or adding a hat.
20120815 17:09:13< celticminstrel> Anything in the image_mod is applied on top of the base sprite.
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20120815 17:09:37< celticminstrel> That, coupled with the fact that sprites are transparent, means you can't use it to replace the base sprite.
20120815 17:10:39< celticminstrel> (If sprites used colour-key instead of alpha for transparency, you could; but it's a good thing they don't for other reasons.)
20120815 17:10:50< zookeeper> not so fast, ~MASK seems capable of that :p
20120815 17:10:56< celticminstrel> Oh?
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20120815 17:11:14< celticminstrel> Oh hey.
20120815 17:11:29< celticminstrel> You're right.
20120815 17:11:38< zookeeper> yeah it's pretty cool
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20120815 17:12:32< celticminstrel> Want to try redoing WC variants as traits, then? :P
20120815 17:12:58< Necrosporus> How is it coded for now?
20120815 17:13:12 * zookeeper wants nothing to do with that
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20120815 17:13:40< Necrosporus> Is ther properties key or what?
20120815 17:13:48< Necrosporus> What's it currently?
20120815 17:14:35< celticminstrel> XD
20120815 17:14:48< celticminstrel> What are you asking, Necrosporus?
20120815 17:15:04< Necrosporus> I mean, there are already different corpses
20120815 17:15:10< Necrosporus> How is it done?
20120815 17:15:16< celticminstrel> With variations.
20120815 17:15:30< Necrosporus> Are there other units with variations?
20120815 17:15:32< celticminstrel> Basically approximately the same way that male/female variants are handled.
20120815 17:15:52< celticminstrel> I think corpses and soulless are the only ones in core to use variations other than male/female.
20120815 17:15:53< Necrosporus> Than why not to add it to status line?
20120815 17:16:03< celticminstrel> I dunno. Ask a developer.
20120815 17:17:10< Necrosporus> Is there also gender differences in units except graphics?
20120815 17:17:47< celticminstrel> Gender is a graphical-only difference in the core units. Conceivably an add-on could make units where gender is a greater difference.
20120815 17:19:50< Espreon> celticminstrel: The Great Wolf has a mere color variation.
20120815 17:20:08< celticminstrel> Oh? I have to see this!
20120815 17:20:38< Espreon> Witness it with the power of debug mode.
20120815 17:20:57< celticminstrel> I assume you mean :debug
20120815 17:21:58< Espreon> Of course.
20120815 17:24:04< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, the code says male/female is a gender
20120815 17:24:17< Necrosporus> While zombie thing are variations
20120815 17:24:17< celticminstrel> Huh?
20120815 17:24:41< celticminstrel> Genders are actually a special case of variations.
20120815 17:25:08< Necrosporus> /usr/share/wesnoth/data/core/units/undead/Necro_Dark_Adept.cfg doesn't mention variations
20120815 17:25:29< Necrosporus> $ grep -c var /usr/share/wesnoth/data/core/units/undead/Necro_Dark_Adept.cfg 
20120815 17:25:30< Necrosporus> 0
20120815 17:25:30< celticminstrel> That's because genders are a special case that have their own tag.
20120815 17:25:42< celticminstrel> They use the [female] tag usually.
20120815 17:25:43< Necrosporus> Why own flag?
20120815 17:25:49< celticminstrel> Different default.
20120815 17:26:00< celticminstrel> [female] by default is identical to the base unit.
20120815 17:26:09< celticminstrel> [variation] by default is its own thing.
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20120815 17:27:47< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, how can I see movement cost without going to the profile?
20120815 17:28:13< celticminstrel> Ah, that's a touch tricky.
20120815 17:28:26< celticminstrel> You need to have a map with one of every possible type.
20120815 17:28:44< celticminstrel> And then you can select the unit and hover over the terrain, and the movement cost is shown at top right.
20120815 17:29:05< celticminstrel> Espreon: Is there a better way to get the red wolf than using :lua wesnoth.fire?
20120815 17:29:43< Espreon> Of course.
20120815 17:29:44< redcheckers> celticminstrel the basic client shows the move cost when you hover over it doesnt it?
20120815 17:29:54< celticminstrel> What is it, then? :P
20120815 17:29:58< Espreon> celticminstrel: Use :unit variation=red
20120815 17:30:02< celticminstrel> Ah.
20120815 17:30:18< Espreon> ... after selecting the unit you wish to affect, of course
20120815 17:30:25< celticminstrel> I assumed as much.
20120815 17:30:42< Espreon> Well, you just need the cursor over it.
20120815 17:30:45< celticminstrel> It only shows move cost when you're hovering over the terrain.
20120815 17:32:10< celticminstrel> I should really check :help first next time.
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20120815 17:35:30< redcheckers> gah , got disconnected X.X i missed all the cool answers about movie costs
20120815 17:38:02< celticminstrel> Basically, only when the unit is selected and you hover over a terrain.
20120815 17:38:11< celticminstrel> Unless I've missed something!
20120815 17:38:23< celticminstrel> Which would be nice to discover. ;_
20120815 17:38:26< celticminstrel> ^ ;)
20120815 17:39:10< celticminstrel> A reasonable place for it would be when hovering over the unit's move count. Hovering over their current defense could also show a list of defenses in other places.
20120815 17:40:14< celticminstrel> It was slightly disappointing to discover that the effects of [resistance] abilities were not illucidated in the same manner as leadership/illuminates, ie giving the base resistance and the modifier and reason for it.
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20120815 17:49:57< redcheckers> celtic minstrel, that reminds me, i still dont fully understand how cold matriarch's resistance lowering works in series
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20120815 17:52:34< celticminstrel> redcheckers: What are you talking about?
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20120815 17:53:08< celticminstrel> redcheckers: What are you talking about?
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20120815 20:20:16< celticminstrel> wmllint gets confused by stuff like path=aspect[attacks].facet[]
20120815 20:20:56< Espreon> wmllint... AKA Raymond's Monster
20120815 20:21:04< celticminstrel> Heh.
20120815 20:21:08< Espreon> ... a ferocious glob of crap that some say we need.
20120815 20:21:13< celticminstrel> Quoting the path silences it. 
20120815 20:21:44< celticminstrel> No reason for that to cause problems with the engine, right?
20120815 20:23:15 * Espreon knows nothing about that fancy AI stuff
20120815 20:23:26< celticminstrel> Do you need to?
20120815 20:23:35< celticminstrel> Surely it's just a matter of the WML parser.
20120815 20:24:05< Espreon> I dunno what this fancy code looks like, so I have no idea.
20120815 20:24:06< Espreon> Heh heh.
20120815 20:26:24< celticminstrel> Conceptually I think wmllint is useful, but it'd probably be better if it preprocessed the files.
20120815 20:28:18< fendrin> celticminstrel: Yeah, it is nice to have wmllint
20120815 20:28:43< celticminstrel> I ignored it until today. :P
20120815 20:29:24< celticminstrel> The reason preprocessing would be good is that most of the #wmllint: directives are needed only because it can't do the preprocessing.
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20120815 20:52:15< celticminstrel> Anyone know whether ~BLIT() crops the new image to the boundaries of the base image or expands the boundaries to accomodate?
20120815 20:52:27< celticminstrel> The former seems more likely, but the latter would be somewhat useful.
20120815 20:54:12< zookeeper> crops
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20120815 21:10:17< celticminstrel> So, uh… wmllint requires speaker=narrator to come before image=?
20120815 21:20:13< celticminstrel> I got annoyed and edited wmllint. :P
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20120815 22:04:30 * shurnor is going to build wesnoth for the first time, and broadcast it!
20120815 22:04:56< celticminstrel> !
20120815 22:08:46< Espreon> Hoo boy...
20120815 22:08:51-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20120815 22:10:22< shurnor> don't panic! i have compiled PlaneShift thousands of times!
20120815 22:10:49< shurnor> this can't be so hard
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20120815 22:33:12< shurnor> some errors with boost and pango... this can not beat me...
20120815 22:33:54< Espreon> I sure hope it doesn't.
20120815 22:43:57< shurnor> configured at last
20120815 22:44:32< shurnor> time lost it's muon's fault
20120815 22:44:46< shurnor> this is gonna be a rollback to synaptic
20120815 22:47:58-!- neXyon [~neXyon@84-119-52-199.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: bye]
20120815 22:49:16< shurnor> let's compile with all cores, tomorrow is labor day
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20120815 23:01:51< shurnor> compiled at last
20120815 23:05:08< shurnor> works fine, almost like the precompiled, random maps do not load, thank you for this great game!
20120815 23:06:02< shurnor> even the kde toasts
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20120815 23:13:30< celticminstrel> Hm. I find myself wanting an [effect] (with a filter) that is evaluated whenever the unit moves.
--- Log closed Thu Aug 16 00:00:57 2012