--- Log opened Mon Sep 03 00:00:02 2012
--- Day changed Mon Sep 03 2012
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20120903 00:00:08< Ivanovic> that is: i am really tired right now and about to head off to bed
20120903 00:00:17< shadowm> Yeah, I know.
20120903 00:00:45< Ivanovic> so maybe remind me to look up those logs and check what was up then in about 20h
20120903 00:00:53< Ivanovic> n8
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20120903 00:50:01< Necrosporus> I get out of sync errors in replay recorded with units from my addon
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20120903 04:18:55< mattsc> boucman: I figured that rather than describing it all here and forgetting half of it, I'd set up a wiki page with how I am imagining the Micro AIs to work:
20120903 04:19:03< mattsc> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Micro_AIs
20120903 04:19:46< mattsc> That way you can read this when you have time and comment back either here or on the wiki directly, and we don't have to worry about the timezone difference etc.
20120903 04:21:30< mattsc> I am not set on doing it this way if there are better suggestions, but I have the version as described essentially working (need to restructure a few things on which I changed my mind while writing the wiki page)
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20120903 04:39:30< SpoOkyMagician> i have a question relating to bug 18591: (https://gna.org/bugs/?18591) if you reload a saved game and the era ONLY uses default units (but its a customized era) shouldn't wesnoth have no problem reloading the game?
20120903 04:40:17< SpoOkyMagician> because i cant reload without an error
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20120903 04:41:48< SpoOkyMagician> it complains about this: 20120902 22:32:40 warning config: Missing era in MP load game UGS_Era 20120902 22:32:40 error general: Mandatory WML child missing yet untested for. Please report.
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20120903 05:06:05< SpoOkyMagician> (just realised something. need to check some stuff.)
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20120903 05:19:37< AI0867> SpoOkyMagician: sounds like the era is at fault
20120903 05:21:16< SpoOkyMagician> well -stf- suggested something to me but since i dont know how saved games work. idk what to do. the only other solution i found was required to have. if you dont have it, it will not reload. otherwise, it does. maybe i am missing something?
20120903 05:22:05< SpoOkyMagician> (brb)
20120903 05:24:09< AI0867> well, it sounds like the era is missing in the savegame, somehow
20120903 05:24:17< SpoOkyMagician> yeah
20120903 05:24:37< AI0867> could have to do with some of the GSoC stuff though
20120903 05:24:45< AI0867> someone was rearchitecting stuff
20120903 05:25:16< SpoOkyMagician> hm. okay
20120903 05:25:19< shadowm> Depends on whether we are talking trunk or 1.10.
20120903 05:25:31< SpoOkyMagician> 1.10.4
20120903 05:25:59< SpoOkyMagician> i have yet to test this with trunk
20120903 05:26:30< shadowm> Trunk might be even more broken in various regards, as I was discussing earlier here.
20120903 05:26:53< SpoOkyMagician> yeah?
20120903 05:27:42< shadowm> blah blah blah 17:58:45 <shadowm> Which would cause WML variables in replays to be utterly broken..
20120903 05:28:26< shadowm> Might be only for variables carried over from previous scenarios anyway.
20120903 05:28:59< SpoOkyMagician> i see. well, in the meantime, ill try to find a temp solution (if possible) otherwise, ill leave it alone for now.
20120903 05:29:04< shadowm> I am obviously not going to test any of that.
20120903 05:29:32< SpoOkyMagician> need to read up on saved games
20120903 05:30:24< shadowm> Anyway, 1.10 includes whatever refactoring work since 1.8 took place as part of GSoC 2010 and 2011, _not_ 2012.
20120903 05:30:56< shadowm> All the work done for GSoC 2012 is trunk (1.11.x) specific.
20120903 05:31:03< shadowm> Which is good.
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20120903 05:49:42< SpoOkyMagician> well, that didnt work. oh well. ill just leave it alone for now. maybe it will be fixed later.
20120903 05:50:08< SpoOkyMagician> nothing else i can do anyway.
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20120903 06:11:23< shadowm> Well, great.
20120903 06:11:34< shadowm> Looks like I can't implement a new campaignd command without running into an awkward situation.
20120903 06:12:18< shadowm> So, I implemented a [request_identification] command locally, but since the live server obviously doesn't have it, the client will send the request and wait for a response that will never come.
20120903 06:12:50< shadowm> The server doesn't have a fallback response for unknown commands and simply leaves the client hanging.
20120903 06:13:01< shadowm> Should it have one?
20120903 06:16:37< shadowm> OTOH I'm not sure what happens when one sends campaignd or wesnothd something that isn't actually WML.
20120903 06:17:49< shadowm> Of course, one would wonder why the client side's network_asio::connection class doesn't appear to have a transfer timeout.
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20120903 10:43:11< shadowm> loonycyborg: Perhaps you might be more helpful here than I can be: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=536914#p536914
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20120903 20:23:52< shadowm> Ivanovic: Should we unassign all bugs assigned to ilor at this point?
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20120903 20:25:51< Ivanovic> i guess so since he seems to be completely gone
20120903 20:26:06< Ivanovic> what about other devs that are gone and got something assigned to them?
20120903 20:26:13< Ivanovic> are there any more besides him?
20120903 20:26:45< shadowm> Ah, you _are_ there.
20120903 20:26:55< shadowm> So, did you check what I mentioned last night?
20120903 20:28:34< Ivanovic> nope, not yet, thanks for the reminder
20120903 20:29:22< shadowm> I think I had deassigned bugs assigned to inactive developers earlier this year but had some reservations about ilor.
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20120903 20:30:08< Ivanovic> ah, okay
20120903 20:30:12< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen ilpr
20120903 20:30:13< wesbot> Ivanovic: Sorry, I don't know of ilpr.
20120903 20:30:17< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen ilor
20120903 20:30:17< wesbot> Ivanovic: Sorry, I don't know of ilor.
20120903 20:30:29< skyfaller> mattsc, Alarantalara: howdy!
20120903 20:30:48< Ivanovic> even wesbot does not know him anymore, so he is definitely gone
20120903 20:30:56< mattsc> Hi skyfaller 
20120903 20:31:09< skyfaller> seems like you guys are very busy today!
20120903 20:31:32< shadowm> Ivanovic: That's not necessarily indicative of anything, but yes, pretty certain he hasn't been around in a long time.
20120903 20:31:45< Espreon> skyfaller: We're always busy.™
20120903 20:31:46< mattsc> Yeah, Alarantalara has made a lot of changes to recruiting
20120903 20:32:14< shadowm> Hm.
20120903 20:32:22< Ivanovic> shadowm: i don't really remember the last time seeing ilor active
20120903 20:32:30< Ivanovic> that is probably more than a year ago
20120903 20:33:06< skyfaller> mattsc: I'm going to upload a replay of me killing Fred 0.10.5 as he spams orc archers, but I wonder if it is obsolete/irrelevant already
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20120903 20:34:33< mattsc> skyfaller: I'll let Alarantalara comment on that.  I don't remember what was before and after 0.10.5
20120903 20:35:06< Alarantalara> skyfaller: It's probably still relevant. More recent changes have focussed on recruiting more trolls when appropriate.
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20120903 20:35:56< skyfaller> I think Fred went a little crazy on orc archers, you can't buy *too* many b/c spearmen are a strong counter to them, more damage and HP for the same price
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20120903 20:37:48< skyfaller> SeattleDad: hi! How is the machine learning recruiter going?
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20120903 20:47:58< Necrosporus> There's event, fired after unit moves somewhere, but why is there no events for units leaving someplace?
20120903 20:50:57< shadowm> Ivanovic: Okay, deassigned those bugs.
20120903 20:51:11< Ivanovic> great, thanks shadowm
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20120903 21:12:19-!- Andralexis [~qaguemopo@189.143.175.213] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120903 21:12:49< Andralexis> hi there?
20120903 21:15:04< shadowm> Hello.
20120903 21:16:32< Andralexis> Hey, been playing Wesnoth a lot lately, you guys have been doing an amazing job.
20120903 21:16:43< Andralexis> Just logged to say that lol.
20120903 21:18:32< Soliton> :-)
20120903 21:19:09< Andralexis> Also, been wodnering how can I contribute to it. I'm a fairly good 2d artist (no sprites tho, I'm not as good doing pixel art).
20120903 21:21:11< zookeeper> got any samples of your work online? would be easier to tell what kind of work might suit you best
20120903 21:21:19< shadowm> Mainline can always use more portraits and story art; you could show what you are capable of and ask in Art Contributions. User-made content people can always use art too, regardless of whether it fits with the mainline quality and style standards.
20120903 21:21:30< zookeeper> also terrain art
20120903 21:22:03< skyfaller> I would expect terrain art to be in a class with sprites, no?
20120903 21:22:16< zookeeper> not really, since our terrain art isn't pixel art
20120903 21:22:43< zookeeper> it's more... painterly
20120903 21:23:33< Andralexis> I have those, guess I'll share some links. This is my anime-styled char sample: http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/086/8/b/ilyana_huntress__revamp__by_andralexis-d3cmke7.jpg
20120903 21:23:35< zookeeper> but sure, it's pretty _small_ painterly art
20120903 21:25:26< CIA-105> jamit master * raf83216 / (5 files in 2 dirs): Move fog clearing from after recall/recruit events to just before them - http://git.io/fuASFw
20120903 21:25:27< CIA-105> espreon master * r4ddaabf / (4 files in 4 dirs): Updated the Croatian translation. - http://git.io/4Gmq_Q
20120903 21:25:28< CIA-105> jamit master * r7896966 / (src/actions/vision.cpp src/actions/vision.hpp): Cleaning up some comments. - http://git.io/rC5_hQ
20120903 21:25:45< Andralexis> and this one is being used in a sony game called Pox Nora: http://i.imgur.com/5BmIr.jpg =)
20120903 21:25:47< zookeeper> Andralexis, well, if you think you can produce somewhat more realistic and more detailed portraits to match our current core portraits, then you could try some of those...
20120903 21:26:41< zookeeper> the fire effects in that one are pretty neat
20120903 21:27:12< Andralexis> yeah, I missed most of the other stuff there, but oh well. It was done in a very small timeframe.
20120903 21:28:09< Andralexis> in-game it looks deceptively better than it does in full-res
20120903 21:29:33< zookeeper> it's really mostly a question of what you want to do... story art or portraits are the most obvious picks, but story art is what we lack the most
20120903 21:30:25< Andralexis> Guess I'll go with Story art. Where or what do I do?
20120903 21:31:58< zookeeper> well, if you give me a few moments i can make a suggestion or two
20120903 21:33:58< Andralexis> sure
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20120903 21:36:42< zookeeper> Andralexis, so i take it that you've played heir to the throne? the thing is that while the intro has a very smooth set of story art, the rest of the campaign has basically none; only a few really old and crappy images.
20120903 21:37:32< Andralexis> That is one of the things I've been thinking about. Whoever made the intro art is a great artist, and I'm afraid our styles could clash instead of complement or flow into each other
20120903 21:38:05< Andralexis> I'm also at the middle of Heir to the Throne, so please no spoilers there unless COMPLETELY necessary (lol).
20120903 21:39:11< shadowm> Meh.
20120903 21:39:24< zookeeper> ok :p well, it's up to you whether you think your style would clash too much with the existing ones. there's plenty of other campaigns with more or less no story art; sceptre of fire and rise of wesnoth, for example
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20120903 21:40:57< shadowm> Campaigns that tend to be superior to HttT in more than one way.
20120903 21:41:14< zookeeper> i won't argue with that :x
20120903 21:42:02< Andralexis> The other thing that really catches my eye is the portrait of Delfador, Konrad and Li'sar. Delfador specially.
20120903 21:42:54< zookeeper> Andralexis, which version you got? 1.10.x?
20120903 21:43:12< Andralexis> The intro story art for him is amazing, and the portrait kinda fails at keeping that epicness.
20120903 21:43:33< Andralexis> No idea, I just downloaded it a few days ago.
20120903 21:43:46< zookeeper> does konrad have spiky hair?
20120903 21:43:49< shadowm> The version number can be found in the titlescreen, bottom-left corner.
20120903 21:44:29< Andralexis> The thing is, I'm in the office right now and can't check the version of my PC's Wesnoth, but yeah, Konrad has spiky, brown hair, and Delfador looks... wrong.
20120903 21:44:57< Andralexis> Semi-animesque portraits, if that helps.
20120903 21:45:17< zookeeper> ah, well, then you haven't seen kitty's _new_ portraits (for konrad and li'sar only so far, but she'll complete the rest of the set sooner or later)
20120903 21:45:28< zookeeper> check out konrad and li'sar here: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/images/portraits/
20120903 21:46:03< zookeeper> so, _that_ project is being worked on
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20120903 21:47:13< Andralexis> new Li'sar is great
20120903 21:47:57< zookeeper> as far as portraits are concerned, pretty much all the mainline campaigns either have a set of decent portraits already. there are some core units (mostly monsters) which are still missing one, though, or could use a complete redo.
20120903 21:48:40< Andralexis> I'll go for those then, while I get the hang of Wesnoth's art to tackle the HttT Story art later.
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20120903 21:50:03< zookeeper> all right. off the top of my head i can name the yeti, giant rat, cuttlefish, sea serpent, water serpent, tentacle of the deep and giant spider as ones which need portraits
20120903 21:50:30< zookeeper> any of those sound interesting? :P
20120903 21:51:33< Andralexis> Yeti, Rat and possibly the serpents. Where can I see the current ones?
20120903 21:52:22< zookeeper> sea serpent is in data/core/images/portraits/monsters/transparent/sea-serpent.png, the other two have none
20120903 21:53:11< zookeeper> the sprites for those are in data/core/images/units/monsters/
20120903 21:54:03< zookeeper> as a general rule, portraits don't need to conform to the sprites exactly, but of course they should be recognizable as being the same kind of creature
20120903 21:54:11< Andralexis> Think I'll do the Yeti first, poor Yeti, looks like a deppresed unkempt hispter
20120903 21:54:21< Andralexis> hipster*^^
20120903 21:55:40< Andralexis> The end result should be a transparent PNG, right?
20120903 21:55:55< zookeeper> the yeti is a huge special unit, so his portrait should be suitably big as well, i guess at least 500x500 in the final waist-cropped version
20120903 21:55:57< zookeeper> yeah
20120903 21:56:14< zookeeper> anyway, once you got something, even an early sketch, do start a thread in the art contributions forum
20120903 21:56:39< Andralexis> ok ok
20120903 21:57:13< zookeeper> and prepare for a lot of critique/comments/complaints/suggestions, and to filtering the useful feedback from the noise
20120903 21:59:14< Andralexis> I'm used to harsh and totally-unhelpful critique, used to work with one troll of an art director
20120903 21:59:35< zookeeper> great! some artists are overly sensitive :>
20120903 21:59:35< shadowm> The end result also needs to be licensed for distribution under the GNU General Public License version 2 and later, with all the implications.
20120903 21:59:46< zookeeper> oh, yeah. that too.
20120903 22:01:44< skyfaller> mattsc, Alarantalara: I just uploaded my replay for Fred 0.10.5 with commentary: http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34976&p=536956#p536956
20120903 22:02:27< Andralexis> I have no idea how to release art under the GNU GPL, so you'll have to teach me how to do it later
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20120903 22:04:11< mattsc> skyfaller: Thanks.  I'll take a look later today.
20120903 22:08:34< zookeeper> Andralexis, by submitting art to wesnoth you agree to place the art under the GPL, so you don't need to _do_ anything. what the GPL basically means is that people are free to make edits of your work or to use it in their other GPL-licensed games or other projects.
20120903 22:08:53 * zookeeper leaves the details to someone else
20120903 22:12:42< Andralexis> it's ok
20120903 22:12:51< Andralexis> Thanks for your help :)
20120903 22:13:19< zookeeper> that said, in mainline wesnoth we don't vandalize stuff by painting silly moustaches on portraits you've made, but if someone wants to do it in their add-on campaign, then they can.
20120903 22:13:23< zookeeper> no problem
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20120903 22:17:39< Andralexis> that "silly moustaches" line is at the same time both inspiring and demoralizing, you know?
20120903 22:17:51< Andralexis> don't know if I should laugh or not
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20120903 22:19:00< shadowm> The most important thing that bothers some people is that it also means it might be used for commercial purposes.
20120903 22:21:55< Andralexis> Personally, I don't care if someone makes some cash using the art I can do for Wesnoth, because that would mean the art is being used in the game, and thus serving its purpose: to contribute to the game and its community.
20120903 22:22:27< zookeeper> Andralexis, maybe, but then again if some kid makes a campaign with silly moustaches on portraits, then... it doesn't really devalue the originals or anything. i mean, if someone genuinely got offended by that then it'd be like a composer getting offended because someone who doesn't really know how to play played it really horribly.
20120903 22:22:50< zookeeper> it = a song they wrote
20120903 22:23:34< Andralexis> Besides, how much can they generate? If they make an iOS app and use a couple of assets you did for Wesnie, would you say your stuff is helping the app overall? What if said app does poorly? Would you take responsability for it? I see no issues there.
20120903 22:24:17< Andralexis> As per the moustaches, I know it doesn't devoid the original. I was simply pointing how your point is both hilarious and sad, but nothing can be made about it. And it doesn't bother me.
20120903 22:24:39< zookeeper> well, that's good
20120903 22:25:51< [balrog]> this makes me curious: is there a reason art and such is under the GPL, and not, say, the CC-BY-SA?
20120903 22:26:00< Andralexis> great question
20120903 22:26:18< shadowm> [balrog]: Yes.
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20120903 22:27:52< zookeeper> [balrog], yeah, it was originally GPL and changing it later has never happened. too many contributors to contact, for one, and some of them wouldn't agree to a license change anyway.
20120903 22:27:58< Andralexis> one could argue there are several CC variations that would help deal with the "commercial" applications your art can be used in, and probably would help Wesnoth attract more contributors.
20120903 22:28:52< shadowm> The Powers That Be also decided that having mixed GPL and CC assets (note that this isn't the same as assets that are individually dual-licensed under both GPL and CC licenses) would overcomplicate things for everyone.
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20120903 22:32:32< Necrosporus> Mine art assets are already dual-licensed as CC-BY-SA + GPL
20120903 22:32:52< zookeeper> Andralexis, the reason i brought up all that is just that when, say, a new programmer appears then you never need to worry about what their expectations or requirements might be regarding these sort of things, but...
20120903 22:32:53< zookeeper> when a new artist appears then there's no telling whether they might require that no one ever touches their art for any purpose or that no one may be allowed to make derivative works of their art or that they are offended by stylistic suggestions or whatever. there's been a fair bit of drama over quite a few such issues over the years.
20120903 22:34:02< Necrosporus> I guess, it would be fine and enough to _recommend artists dual-license their works
20120903 22:34:32< Necrosporus> will only take a bit of effort to change few wikipages and forum posts
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20120903 22:38:21< Andralexis> probably you guys can save you some drama if you implement NSporu's suggestion.
20120903 22:44:14< Necrosporus> Regular art makers would probably read it and relicense their works if they want
20120903 22:45:08< Necrosporus> I'm not sure, can I dual-license my wml code
20120903 22:45:58< Necrosporus> It calls for engine functions + contains few fragments of code taken from other sources (though that pieces are just few lines long and not copyrightable)
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20120903 22:46:58< Necrosporus> How do I upload my addon onto wesnoth addon server?
20120903 22:47:13< Necrosporus> I guess, it's more or less ready for public test
20120903 22:47:42< Necrosporus> Though, I would prefer someone to review it beforehand
20120903 22:48:55< zookeeper> put a properly filled _server.pbl in your add-on dir and you'll see the upload option in the add-on browser
20120903 22:49:12< zookeeper> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/PblWML
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20120903 22:51:31< Necrosporus> Do I need to register somewhere?
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20120903 22:51:47< zookeeper> no
20120903 22:52:30< Necrosporus> Got it... that's easier than I thought. But would I be able to remove it later?
20120903 22:52:49< Necrosporus> It probably requre some authorisation or one may remove other's addons
20120903 22:53:16< shadowm> If you even bothered to read the page you'd realize there's one such mechanism.
20120903 22:56:17< Necrosporus> I see, thanks
20120903 23:02:14< anonymissimus> jamit: r55225 counts as compatibility-breaking I suppose...in case someone was using store_unit in a prerecall event instead of just $unit
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20120903 23:03:21< anonymissimus> jamit: also, it's not really obvious why the unit should no longer be on the recall list in a prerecall event already
20120903 23:04:29< jamit> anonymissimus: r55225 only affected AI sides and replays. A recall during a human turn (not a replay) was already removing the unit from the recall list first.
20120903 23:04:33< anonymissimus> jamit: from the wml author point of view, I would probably expect that it's still there in prerecruit and removed in the recruit event, of course
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20120903 23:05:43< anonymissimus> jamit: hm ok
20120903 23:05:55< jamit> Assuming that few AIs are given units to recall, the gist of r55225 was to make the behavior in replays match the behavior during the original game.
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20120903 23:06:25< jamit> Although, there is a certain logic to doing the deletion between prerecall and recall.
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20120903 23:38:52< jamit> anonymissimus: Doh! Just remembered a big reason why deleting from the recall list before the prerecall event is a good idea -- the unit is already on the board at that point, just not displayed yet. It has to be, in order for the event system to identify it as the primary unit for the event.
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20120903 23:40:50< jamit> I suppose that is why things were done in that order in menu_events, and the rarity of AI recalls meant that no one thought to keep AI events in sync.
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20120903 23:44:26< anonymissimus> jamit: alright
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--- Log closed Tue Sep 04 00:00:16 2012