--- Log opened Mon Sep 17 00:00:40 2012
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20120917 00:41:27< jamit> !log 55268
20120917 00:41:28< shikadibot> jamit: Revision 55268 (fendrin) on Sat Sep  8 20:15:39 2012:
20120917 00:41:28< shikadibot> jamit: Made the hex field size and the default terrain wml configurable.
20120917 00:41:28< shikadibot> jamit: Web interface URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=55268
20120917 00:41:54< jamit> What can someone accomplish now that the hex field size is WML-configurable?
20120917 00:42:54< jamit> I see the default terrain filling the map editor (saving about 3 clicks to flood fill the map with something), but I haven't noticed much change from the field size.
20120917 00:43:20< jamit> Well, other than some units disappearing under terrain in some cases.
20120917 00:47:29< AI0867> fendrin: ^
20120917 00:57:56< fendrin> jamit: I am at it.
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20120917 01:05:01< shadowm> Is that a commit including two completely different changes?
20120917 01:06:26< Espreon> Gasp.
20120917 01:31:48< fendrin> shadowm: No, shouldn't.
20120917 01:32:53< fendrin> shadowm: Ah yes. The default terrain. It seemed to be very related because both are terrain related config options.
20120917 01:33:17< shadowm> That's like saying I can package watermelons and tomatoes together because both a fruits.
20120917 01:33:27< shadowm> *are
20120917 01:33:52< shadowm> While both changes affect the editor and WML syntax, they should really have been done in two separate commits in case we decide either needs to be reverted.
20120917 01:34:45< fendrin> I see.
20120917 01:35:56< fendrin> jamit: I have found what is going on. Await a fix soon. May I ask for what you need the feature? You must also know that you need a bunch of terrain graphics in the new size.
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20120917 01:41:55< jamit> fendrin: That's basically what I was asking about. Why would I need the feature? It was there, so I thought I would try it out, but I did not see any changes. So what should I be looking for with this feature? What can I do with it?
20120917 01:43:57< jamit> I was kind of assuming that the one who introduced the feature would know for what it is needed.
20120917 01:46:03< fendrin> jamit: You can use the engine with a different hex field size.
20120917 01:46:33< jamit> shadowm: I see nothing wrong with packaging tomatoes and watermelons together. Then again, I am not particularly fond of tomatoes. That might have something to do with it... :)
20120917 01:47:12< shadowm> I don't like tomatoes either, but in this particular case you'd end up with something more akin to watermelons covered with tomato sauce.
20120917 01:47:16< fendrin> jamit: But you need to have fitting images in that size.
20120917 01:47:48< fendrin> jamit: But that is not a huge problem. A simple script can resize them all. But you loose image quality by doing so.
20120917 01:48:33< fendrin> jamit: And I found a bug that may prevent to let you see the mess when setting the hex field size to a different value while still using the old images.
20120917 01:48:50< jamit> fendrin: Why not resize the the non-standard images to Wesnoth's 72x72, then change the zoom?
20120917 01:49:48< fendrin> jamit: I guess that will make image quality much worser since you scale an aleady scaled image again.
20120917 01:49:55< jamit> Or is that the same effect? I was kind of expecting the grid to change when I changed the tile_size=, but everything seems to stay the same size. Even the spaces occupied by units.
20120917 01:50:24< fendrin> jamit: Yes, there is still a bug. I will notice you when I commited the fix.
20120917 01:50:58< jamit> I suppose I was kind of expecting that by setting tile_size=36, the grid would shrink, and either all the images would shrink with it, or the units would overlap because they are too big for such a small grid.
20120917 01:51:34< fendrin> jamit: Indeed, you will have something like that. just await the fix :-)
20120917 01:51:45< jamit> OK
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20120917 17:51:16< fendrin> Espreon: around?
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20120917 20:50:04< fendrin> shadowm: Hello, do you agree with the first two additional mouse buttons being bound to next and previous unit by default?
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20120917 21:08:36< Espreon> fendrin: I am now.
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20120917 21:15:59< shadowm> fendrin: No.
20120917 21:16:22< shadowm> Aren't they considered part of the scrollwheel events?
20120917 21:17:36< shadowm> And I can't really agree with something I couldn't possibly test. Except for a mouse I have with an additional button that always emits two consecutive left button click events, they all have just three buttons.
20120917 21:20:04< fendrin> Espreon: Do you know how I can make c++ code translator friendly?
20120917 21:20:47 * zookeeper has quite a few extra buttons on his mouse but keeps them disabled because they're so easy to misclick
20120917 21:20:55< Espreon> fendrin: I'd have to see what you're doing.
20120917 21:21:00< Espreon> But the answer is probably "no".
20120917 21:21:55< fendrin> Espreon: I am doing much << "Please translyte my first " << variable1 << "blah and blub" << variable2 << "hell what" <<....
20120917 21:22:03< shadowm> fendrin: If you need to leave a note for translators so it appears in the msgid comment in the .po and .pot files, place a comment block starting with // TRANSLATORS: right above the relevant gettext call line. You can see an example in image.cpp.
20120917 21:22:13< shadowm> fendrin: As for your specific use case, use variable interpolation.
20120917 21:22:27< Espreon> Indeed.
20120917 21:22:32< fendrin> something with %s ?
20120917 21:22:53< shadowm> There are a few examples of that using the vgettext() macro in src/addon/manager_ui.cpp
20120917 21:23:13< fendrin> Thank you very much.
20120917 21:23:41< shadowm> e.g. utils::string_map symbols;  symbols["foo"] = "bar"; text = vgettext("The value of 'foo' is '$bar'.", symbols);
20120917 21:23:57< shadowm> * '$foo'.", symbols);
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20120917 21:25:23< shadowm> The most important thing is that this approach allows translators to reorder parameters if it's necessary for language coherency.
20120917 21:26:14< fendrin> Yes I know. You gave me exactly what I was looking for.
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20120917 21:31:50< fendrin> How does it sound? "The hotkey is already in use. This will reassign $name_of_the_hotkey_like_"shift + g" from $something_like_next_unit to $something_like_previous_unit. Do you want to continue?"
20120917 21:33:55< fendrin> Espreon: ^ 
20120917 21:37:02< shadowm> "The hotkey is already in use. This will reassign $hotkey_sequence from $old_hotkey_action to $new_hotkey_action|. Do you want to continue?"
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20120917 21:37:57< fendrin> shadowm: Yes :-)
20120917 21:38:14< shadowm> Also, "Do you wish to continue?" would be preferred, I think.
20120917 21:38:25< fendrin> Ah, that is copy and paste.
20120917 21:38:41< fendrin> From the reset defaults dialog.
20120917 21:38:52< Espreon> What shadowm suggested is good.
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20120917 21:39:06< Espreon> Hmmm...
20120917 21:39:11< shadowm> Yes, but I believe someone said that "Do you wish" should be used and completely replace "Do you want" in the future.
20120917 21:39:18< Espreon> Yes.
20120917 21:39:21< Espreon> ... "in the future".
20120917 21:39:40< shadowm> I have gone with "do you wish" for new prompts in the add-ons manager myself.
20120917 21:39:43< fendrin> Well, the future begins with my commit. I will change it.
20120917 21:39:51< Espreon> fendrin: Wait...
20120917 21:40:17< Espreon> ... for some reason, I think "This hotkey" would be better, but I'm not quite sure...
20120917 21:41:05< shadowm> "$hotkey_sequence is already in use by $old_hotkey_action|. Do you wish to reassign it to $new_hotkey_action|?"
20120917 21:41:46< fendrin> Well, the hotkey can be a single key on the keyboard, a mouse button, a joystick button, a key sequence, a mouse button + modifier key, a joystick_button + modifier key ....
20120917 21:41:50< shadowm> If it's a Pango context there could also be some formatting for the placeholders' values, I think, but I don't think we even have a convention for those yet.
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20120917 21:42:08< Espreon> If I can get an idea of what an actual result of $old_hotkey_action would be, then I could tell...
20120917 21:42:25< shadowm> Espreon: Probably something like "Next Unit" or any other hotkey action name.
20120917 21:42:33< fendrin> right
20120917 21:42:42< shadowm> I mean, look in Preferences -> General -> Hotkeys. Those are hotkey action names filling a list.
20120917 21:43:03< fendrin> indeed
20120917 21:43:12< fendrin> Exactly that strings.
20120917 21:43:32< fendrin> those strings
20120917 21:44:00< shadowm> And hotkey_sequence would be something like Ctrl + G for a keyboard sequence. What about mouse and joystick events?
20120917 21:44:23< fendrin> Ctrl + Mouse0Btn8
20120917 21:44:54< shadowm> Uhm.
20120917 21:45:02< fendrin> I could let the mouses and joysticks start with 1.
20120917 21:45:09< shadowm> That doesn't sound very natural language-friendly.
20120917 21:45:10< fendrin> sdl calls it mouse0
20120917 21:45:24< Espreon> shadowm: OK, then I think it sucks.
20120917 21:45:26< shadowm> The plural is 'mice', by the way.
20120917 21:45:33< shadowm> Espreon: What does?
20120917 21:45:38< Espreon> the suggestion.
20120917 21:45:41< Espreon> ... maybe it sucks...
20120917 21:45:43< Espreon> ... Ugh.
20120917 21:45:44< fendrin> But I can rename that.
20120917 21:45:46< shadowm> Which one of them?
20120917 21:45:46< Espreon> I really shouldn't be here.
20120917 21:45:52< fendrin> Any suggestions are welcome.
20120917 21:45:54< Espreon> shadowm: The second one.
20120917 21:46:05< shadowm> Uh.
20120917 21:46:11< Espreon> Only because of what the result gives us.
20120917 21:46:16< shadowm> Espreon: You mean the "do you wish?" one?
20120917 21:46:21< Espreon> Uh...
20120917 21:46:32< Espreon> 21:41 < shadowm> "$hotkey_sequence is already in use by $old_hotkey_action|. Do you wish to reassign it to $new_hotkey_action|?"
20120917 21:46:34< shadowm> That was my second suggestion.
20120917 21:47:01< Espreon> But again, I'm not so sure and I really can't stick around.
20120917 21:47:04< shadowm> Espreon: Please, elaborate on your opinion, and suggest something better.
20120917 21:47:11< Espreon> Dude, I can't stay.
20120917 21:47:11< shadowm> Later, if necessary.
20120917 21:47:15< Espreon> All right.
20120917 21:47:22< Espreon> Hopefully, I'll be able to discuss it tomorrow.
20120917 21:47:46< shadowm> I did say that in a Pango context some formatting (that hasn't been standarized) could be more appropriate.
20120917 21:48:32< shadowm> Then again, a lot of GUI stuff hasn't been standarized yet... I've been meaning to go and update a certain wiki page and require everyone to approve it as an actual standard spec.
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20120917 22:58:55< fendrin> shadowm: I like your second one best.
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20120917 23:18:08< fendrin> shadowm: Do think having it's own scope for the replay mode is a good idea?
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20120917 23:29:12< shadowm> What's an scope in this context again?
20120917 23:29:29< shadowm> *a
20120917 23:33:25< fendrin> Well, you can assign a key once in every scope.
20120917 23:33:42< fendrin> Thus in game you have n for next unit but in the editor n is next tool.
20120917 23:34:23< shadowm> Okay, I don't know much about replay mode and I find the scopes thing to be rather awkwardly implemented.
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20120917 23:35:12< fendrin> Well, the keyboard is already a bit crowded and more scopes means more room again.
20120917 23:36:01< shadowm> The problem with scopes is that there's no user-visible indication that they exist in the first place.
20120917 23:36:03< fendrin> The awkward implementation is the fact that you need to be in the context of the scope in order to change the hotkey bindings?
20120917 23:36:30< shadowm> Also that.
20120917 23:36:36< fendrin> Well, that shouldn't be much of a problem.
20120917 23:36:58< shadowm> It is actually a rather important problem from a stylistic standpoint.
20120917 23:37:02< fendrin> Let's just define a gui and I do it right now.
20120917 23:37:08< shadowm> It's yet another thing that an application shouldn't be doing behind the user's back.
20120917 23:37:30< fendrin> I fully agree.
20120917 23:37:44< fendrin> It took me some time to recognize that the editor can do more.
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20120917 23:38:28< fendrin> I also would like to activate the help browser in the editor and add some chapters to it for using it.
20120917 23:38:45< shadowm> The view aspect would be rather trivial... have multiple categories, one for the general scope (assuming that's a thing), and more for specific scopes. With an advacned toolkit, those categories would probably embedded in the listbox/tree view itself. Alternatively, they could be displayed in separate tabs.
20120917 23:38:54< shadowm> But guess what, neither thing can be done in Wesnoth. *grumble*
20120917 23:39:03< shadowm> Not trivially, anyway.
20120917 23:39:36< shadowm> Especially since GUI1's listboxes actually work better than GUI2's, which randomly crash when their contents change.
20120917 23:42:49< fendrin> Hmmm, Just a button named Switch Scope?
20120917 23:43:12< fendrin> With a dialog that presents some listbox.
20120917 23:43:12< shadowm> Oh no.
20120917 23:43:29< shadowm> That's just ugly.
20120917 23:44:00< fendrin> What about displaying them but greyed out.
20120917 23:44:18< fendrin> The player will learn that there is more that just not counts now.
20120917 23:44:21< shadowm> There'd have to be a pretty good explanation about that somewhere.
20120917 23:44:54< fendrin> Wait, I can just display them all.
20120917 23:45:21< shadowm> Then there could be confusion regarding the duplicity of hotkey assignments for some actions.
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20120917 23:47:02< fendrin> Okay, I have an idea.
20120917 23:47:33< fendrin> I just duplicate the mother gui, the preferences dialogs with tabs.
20120917 23:47:46< fendrin> That is easy to do and good enough.
20120917 23:47:46< shadowm> Agh.
20120917 23:47:56< shadowm> It's easy to do and horribly messy.
20120917 23:48:24< fendrin> no
20120917 23:48:29< shadowm> I mean, that's not even a generic dialog. It's a bunch of code with all kinds of magic numbers and manual layout specifications tailored specifically for the Preferences dialog.
20120917 23:49:05< fendrin> hmmm
20120917 23:49:40< shadowm> I'm also of the opinion that it should be the other way around; Hotkeys should be turned into a Preferences page.
20120917 23:50:43< shadowm> But again, the Preferences dialog does not use a generic implementation and adding more options means making it even cruftier at the code level.
20120917 23:51:25< shadowm> The left-side listbox also manages to avoid displaying a scrollbar on 800x600 and higher at this time; adding another option would definitely force the scrollbar on 800x600 at least.
20120917 23:57:14< fendrin> Well, a new tab with "Control" would be nice. Hotkey, mouse and joystick options would have their home in it.
20120917 23:57:19< shadowm> Really, Wesnoth is an endless source of frustration when it comes to doing GUI improvements.
20120917 23:57:37< shadowm> That's really why I have stopped doing anything for now and moved onto more flexible territory.
20120917 23:58:40< fendrin> I think we should discuss a solution to the problem. Either spending gsoc students on the gui2 area or dropping it for a ready to use gui toolkit.
20120917 23:59:37< shadowm> Hahaha. Yeah, I can see mordante doing that. (Not.)
--- Log closed Tue Sep 18 00:00:41 2012