--- Log opened Fri Sep 21 00:00:18 2012
20120921 00:04:33< jamit> fendrin: I believe so. That could explain why those [hotkey] tags lack alt=, ctrl=, and cmd=. They do have command=, which is set before the switch.
20120921 00:07:19< fendrin> jamit: Oh, I see.
20120921 00:07:23< fendrin> Stupid me.
20120921 00:15:19< fendrin> shadowm: around?
20120921 00:16:13-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20120921 00:20:47< shadowm> Somewhat.
20120921 00:24:28< fendrin> shadowm: Do you agree that most of the advanced items deserve their place in one of the other tabs?
20120921 00:25:01< shadowm> No.
20120921 00:25:44< fendrin> Accept whispers from friends only --> Multiplayer
20120921 00:26:01< fendrin> Auto-open whisper windows in lobby --> Multiplayer
20120921 00:26:11< shadowm> Remember, this is GUI1 and the layout won't adjust correctly on 800x480 if you aren't careful.
20120921 00:26:28< shadowm> That means adding a batch of ten or so options to one of the existing tabs will definitely break it.
20120921 00:26:59< shadowm> Regardless, all rarely used and unimportant options in Advanced belong in Advanced.
20120921 00:27:20< shadowm> Same goes for confusing options, or options with non-obvious side effects.
20120921 00:28:03< shadowm> For example, "Compressed Saves" belongs in Advanced because not everyone will realize why Wesnoth's preferences directory will suddenly grow to about four gigabytes in size.
20120921 00:28:39< shadowm> "Reverse time graphics" also belongs in Advanced because I said so.
20120921 00:28:44< fendrin> :-)
20120921 00:28:51< shadowm> "Local time of day area lighting" also belongs in Advanced because I said so.
20120921 00:28:57< fendrin> :-)
20120921 00:29:12< shadowm> alink optimized that part during 1.9.x and it doesn't have any significant performance impact anymore.
20120921 00:29:32< fendrin> Then let's remove the option.
20120921 00:29:39< shadowm> The option shouldn't really be there anymore but I couldn't convince him otherwise.
20120921 00:29:44< fendrin> Lobby sounds can be moved to sounds, right?
20120921 00:29:48< shadowm> So leave it where iti s.
20120921 00:30:10< shadowm> Technically, Lobby sounds shouldn't exist.
20120921 00:30:52< shadowm> It should be covered by the User interface options, but it somehow isn't. Also, I think it behaves differently depending on which lobby is currently in use.
20120921 00:32:59< shadowm> More generally, I already went over that tab and moved options from/to other tabs some time ago.
20120921 00:33:24< shadowm> Other than the Input options, everything that's currently there should remain there.
20120921 00:34:58< fendrin> Fine, one task less. shadowm, do we agree that there are exactly 3 which are moved from the advanced tab to input?
20120921 00:35:13< Espreon> I too think we should keep the "Local time of day area lighting" option.
20120921 00:37:28< shadowm> I have some reservations about the mouse scrolling and middle-click scrolling options.
20120921 00:38:31< shadowm> Namely, I can't think of any valid use cases for disabling them.
20120921 00:39:04< fendrin> If you do you can bind the buttons to hotkeys, since yesterday.
20120921 00:39:33< shadowm> Okay, I'm not really following trunk as of late.
20120921 00:40:27< fendrin> Oh, no. There is a codeline that catches the mouse events below 7.
20120921 00:40:55< fendrin> But it can easily be made working.
20120921 00:43:11< fendrin> shadowm: I think the dialog could fit without scrolling at 800x600.
20120921 00:43:47< fendrin> I just can't find the code line to adjust the size of the menu.
20120921 00:47:36< shadowm> I beleive that's done by the generic GUI1 dialog class.
20120921 00:49:32< fendrin> Yes, somehow automatically. And it's doing the job wrong. I can adjust the dialog size to be fullscreen at 800x600 and it's still limiting the list to 5 items.
20120921 00:50:28< shadowm> The problem is that changing the generic GUI1 dialog class is the most error-prone approach to deal with this kind of issue.
20120921 00:51:45< shadowm> There are many dialogs in production that rely on it working properly, and perhaps even worse, some of them might rely on very specific behaviors
20120921 00:52:11< shadowm> It's hard to determine whether the latter is true or not since many of them simply work with magic numbers without any code comments explaining where they come from and what the assumptions are.
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20120921 00:53:39< shadowm> O
20120921 00:53:44< shadowm> Granted, the majority of those numbers are used by the GUI1 dialog layout code itself.
20120921 00:54:29< fendrin> Okay, I will keep the geometry untouched.
20120921 00:54:56< fendrin> It should be enough to adjust the size of the panes to the full 6 items.
20120921 00:55:24< AI0867> fendrin: rather than reorganizing stuff in GUI1, we should be creating a GUI2 dialog that doesn't have hardcoded sections
20120921 00:55:35< fendrin> Meaning the 800x600 people will have to live with a scrollbar like the 800x480 ones.
20120921 00:56:01< AI0867> that is, make everything an "advanced option" and auto-partition those by what the option says it should be part of
20120921 00:56:05< fendrin> AI0867: GUI2 is not up to replace the preferences dialog.
20120921 00:56:12< AI0867> not yet, no
20120921 00:56:22< AI0867> I've been looking at some hacks to make current GUI2 work
20120921 00:56:29< AI0867> and I have a partial proof-of-concept here
20120921 00:56:33< AI0867> but no, not yet
20120921 00:56:59< fendrin> I think we should either hire a lot gsoc students to fix gui2 or go with another gui library.
20120921 00:57:01< shadowm> And the behavior implemented by that kind of hacks is highly likely to be inadvertently broken by mordante at any time.
20120921 00:57:45< fendrin> Anyway, I am fine with gui1 most of the time. My new prefrences dialog is almost ready.
20120921 00:57:52< fendrin> I am going to commit it soon.
20120921 00:58:11< fendrin> shadowm, AI0867: Would you have a look at it?
20120921 00:58:14< shadowm> Wait. "New"?
20120921 00:58:28< fendrin> Well, the concept is ready.
20120921 00:58:47< shadowm> We don't need a new preferences dialog. The one that there is does its job just as well and it isn't broken.
20120921 00:58:57< shadowm> Inflexible, yes, but not broken.
20120921 00:59:13< fendrin> A few lines above AI0867 said we should recode it in gui2.
20120921 01:00:08< fendrin> Well, it is looking the same, just supporting the kde menu behavior everyone hates.
20120921 01:01:19< AI0867> fendrin: sure
20120921 01:01:54< fendrin> AI0867: Sure, you hate it?
20120921 01:02:03< AI0867> the point of rewriting it in wml is to make it easier to add stuff
20120921 01:02:14< AI0867> s/wml/gui2
20120921 01:02:24< AI0867> sure, I'll take a look at it
20120921 01:02:30< fendrin> cool
20120921 01:02:58< shadowm> fendrin: I still don't understand what the "kde menu behavior everyone hates" entails.
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20120921 01:03:37< shadowm> As for replacing, yes, GUI2 is the future, etc. etc. Obviously it would need to be entirely rewritten for GUI2.
20120921 01:04:02< shadowm> But for GUI1, it's already implemented for the GUI1 framework and it doesn't need to be rewritten.
20120921 01:04:06< CIA-108> fendrin * r55342 /trunk/src/hotkeys.cpp: Get rid of cleared hotkeys, once and for all.
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20120921 01:04:37< shadowm> Improved, fixed, or extended? Yes, but rewriting is not advisable for this kind of thing because it tends to introduce more bugs than you started with.
20120921 01:06:42< fendrin> No, I just extended a bit. I broke the usability with keyboard, but that was not very limited anyway.
20120921 01:06:52< fendrin> s/not//
20120921 01:07:08< shadowm> Uh.
20120921 01:07:26< shadowm> The "kde menu behavior everyone hates" is the highlight on hover thing?
20120921 01:07:32< fendrin> You could switch between the tabs with the arrow keys but do nothing.
20120921 01:07:51< fendrin> I won't spoil the surprise... :-P
20120921 01:09:02< shadowm> Okay, I'm suddenly very worried about this.
20120921 01:09:44< fendrin> lol
20120921 01:12:29< CIA-108> fendrin * r55343 /trunk/src/game_preferences_display.cpp: Extended preferences dialog
20120921 01:13:12< CIA-108> fendrin * r55344 /trunk/images/icons/ (4 files): Some new icons for the extended prefrences menu.
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20120921 01:13:23< shadowm> Re r55343: where's the rest of the commit message?
20120921 01:13:50< shadowm> Because I'm absolutely certain that's not the whole commit message. That wouldn't be possible after all I have complained about unhelpful commit messages, right?
20120921 01:14:20< shadowm> Right.
20120921 01:14:58< fendrin> Sorry.
20120921 01:15:32< shadowm>    1 file changed, 523 insertions(+), 22 deletions(-)
20120921 01:15:46< Espreon> You crazy kids and your octet streams...
20120921 01:15:57< fendrin> shadowm: Sounds about right.
20120921 01:16:02< shadowm> 523 undescribed additions.
20120921 01:16:21< shadowm> I mean, other than the really vague "extended" qualifier.
20120921 01:16:46< shadowm> Espreon: Aren't the French the only ones who actually call them octets?
20120921 01:17:03< fendrin> Yes, and a changelog entry would also have been nice.
20120921 01:17:15< Espreon> shadowm: Probably.
20120921 01:17:32< AI0867> shadowm: which is why you should design a machine with a byte that has more than 8 bits
20120921 01:17:38< AI0867> there were plenty in the past
20120921 01:18:56< AI0867> fendrin: it took me a moment to figure out what was going on with the menu
20120921 01:19:08< AI0867> especially since it only happens for input
20120921 01:19:56< AI0867> also, the close button disappears when I click input, and never reappears
20120921 01:19:58< shadowm> I haven't finished compiling yet.
20120921 01:20:02< AI0867> escape still works, but still...
20120921 01:20:33< fendrin> AI0867: Strange, that didn't happen to me. Could be resolution related.
20120921 01:20:51< AI0867> yeah, I'm using 800x480
20120921 01:21:10< AI0867> just to make sure everything that can fall off will
20120921 01:21:26< fendrin> I bet I can fix that.
20120921 01:22:54< CIA-108> espreon * r55345 /trunk/images/icons/ (4 files): Ran umcpropfix.
20120921 01:23:25< Espreon> The hell did icon-game.png come from?
20120921 01:23:44< fendrin> Espreon: Wikipedia. It's a free image.
20120921 01:23:57< Espreon> Linky please
20120921 01:24:09< fendrin> hmmm
20120921 01:24:30< shadowm> It has to be either PD, CC-0, or GNU GPL v2+.
20120921 01:24:48< shadowm> CC-by-sa and such just won't do.
20120921 01:25:25< fendrin> Espreon, shadowm: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Battle_for_Wesnoth_embedded.png
20120921 01:26:11< fendrin> GPL seems to apply.
20120921 01:27:17< AI0867> GPLv2+ even
20120921 01:29:59< fendrin> AI0867: okay, it can be fixed for 800x480 easily.
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20120921 01:47:53< shadowm> What the hell.
20120921 01:48:01< fendrin> :-P
20120921 01:48:11< shadowm> fendrin: You are missing a few points here.
20120921 01:48:17< shadowm> 1) KDE's menu had a breadcrumbs display.
20120921 01:48:28< shadowm> 2) Submenu transitions are animated even at the lowest animation setting in Appearance.
20120921 01:48:57< shadowm> And get rid of that hideous pre-1.0 Konrad portrait crop.
20120921 01:49:54< shadowm> 3) KDE's menu is consistent.
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20120921 01:50:09< shadowm> There's no single major entry that reappears as a submenu entry.
20120921 01:50:35< shadowm> I start at Preferences, go to Input, and there's another Input entry at the top there.
20120921 01:50:43< shadowm> I go into Hotkeys, and I see antoher Input entry at the bottom.
20120921 01:51:02< fendrin> Okay, that are all details. 
20120921 01:51:08< shadowm> No.
20120921 01:51:09< shadowm> They are not.
20120921 01:51:10< fendrin> What do you think about the concept?
20120921 01:51:17< shadowm> I have been striving for consistency.
20120921 01:51:21< Espreon> ... ... ...
20120921 01:51:25< shadowm> And now this happens.
20120921 01:51:26< Espreon> This Input thing...
20120921 01:51:31< Espreon> ... is a monstrosity.
20120921 01:51:34< fendrin> All your points are valid.
20120921 01:52:09< fendrin> My question is, did you had something like that in mind, at least for the hotkey submenu?
20120921 01:52:13< shadowm> No.
20120921 01:52:30< shadowm> We don't have any elegant mechanism to implement a breadcrumbs display.
20120921 01:52:37< Espreon> ... so much clicking noises...
20120921 01:52:39< shadowm> What you did is a hack and doesn't belong in production.
20120921 01:53:42< shadowm> The sole fact that it requires me to _think_ before choosing navigation option is a big massive flashing alert sign.
20120921 01:53:45< fendrin> What is missing to make it work?
20120921 01:54:04< shadowm> *options
20120921 01:54:24< fendrin> options?
20120921 01:54:40< shadowm> Every entry in the left side listbox is a navigation option, obviously.
20120921 01:54:48< shadowm> Okay, but let's rewind this tape a bit. A lot, in fact.
20120921 01:55:02< shadowm> I start at Preferences and I see a listbox at the left.
20120921 01:55:15< shadowm> I have already seen listboxes elsewhere in Wesnoth and I know more or less how they behave.
20120921 01:55:25< shadowm> One clicks on an entry to select that entry.
20120921 01:55:50< shadowm> Okay, so I do that with the Display entry here and I discover that in this particular case it also changes the options displayed at the right.
20120921 01:56:18< shadowm> Okay, that's a little unusual for Wesnoth, but seems normal and consistent enough.
20120921 01:56:32< shadowm> Notice that when doing this the navigation box's items stay constant.
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20120921 01:56:57< shadowm> So, I do this for all the other non-Input options and discover that this behavior remains consistent for all navigation options.
20120921 01:57:05< shadowm> Finally, I decide to do the same with the Input option.
20120921 01:57:27< shadowm> Whoah. What's that? Suddenly the navigation box changed completely, as well as the options displayed on the right side panel.
20120921 01:57:38< shadowm> Suspicious.
20120921 01:58:02< shadowm> I'm now presented with the same Input option I originally chose, except it's now at the top of the list. Additionally, I see three more options.
20120921 01:58:10< shadowm> One of them is 'Main'.
20120921 01:58:20< shadowm> I wonder, "is that how I go back or what?"
20120921 01:58:41< shadowm> But I decide to try that later. First, I click on one of the other navigation options, say, Hotkey (sic).
20120921 01:58:59< shadowm> Whoah, the navigation box changes completely again.
20120921 01:59:18< shadowm> This Input thing is horribly special, I decide.
20120921 01:59:50< shadowm> So special that it feels like the people who wrote this thing were playing around with the power of their UI toolkit instead of doing something I could have understood at first glance.
20120921 02:00:20< shadowm> So I try the newly presented options too.
20120921 02:00:36< shadowm> In the meantime, I notice that the right side panel shows a listbox with a broken scrollbar.
20120921 02:01:23< shadowm> A listbox with seemingly related options that somehow still changes geometry every time; namely, the column widths change depending on the current page.
20120921 02:01:47< shadowm> Okay, I say, this product is clearly unfinished or the work of amateurs.
20120921 02:02:05< shadowm> I then choose the last option in the navigation box. It also reads "Input".
20120921 02:02:31< shadowm> Before clicking on it, I assume that it will take me back to the previous menu that also started with an "Input" option, which came from the "Input" option on the very top level menu.
20120921 02:02:57< shadowm> I discover, much to my relief, that my guess was absolutely correct. It took me back one level.
20120921 02:03:05< fendrin> Sure, the exact layout can be improved a lot. 
20120921 02:03:10< shadowm> And yet, the "Input" option I chose also appears at the top again in the process.
20120921 02:03:29< fendrin> The entries which are folders can have a special arrow on them.
20120921 02:03:38< shadowm> I decide that there are two related and yet unrelated Input options to choose from.
20120921 02:03:41< fendrin> And a back button image wouldn't hurt.
20120921 02:03:42< shadowm> Or, in fact, three.
20120921 02:03:47< shadowm> All three of them at different levels.
20120921 02:04:18< fendrin> I can fix everything you mentioned so far.
20120921 02:04:27< shadowm> Now, I choose Hotkey again, and discover that when doing so, at least two different pages are shown on the right side in quick succession.
20120921 02:04:55< shadowm> A quaint visual effect, I assume at first.
20120921 02:05:04< shadowm> On further inspection, I suspect it's a bug.
20120921 02:05:36< shadowm> I then notice that the 'Mouse' entry in the second-level menu is represented by the image of a rat.
20120921 02:05:53< fendrin> Isn't that nice?
20120921 02:06:40< shadowm> I then decide that whoever did this did not realize that mice and rats are different species.
20120921 02:07:04< Espreon> They look similar enough.
20120921 02:07:08< Espreon> ... but whatever.
20120921 02:07:12< shadowm> Finally, I notice the 'Main' entry.
20120921 02:07:13< Espreon> Science is the new God, so... yeah.
20120921 02:07:27< shadowm> I _assume_ it takes me back to the top level menu.
20120921 02:07:35< shadowm> However, I had to think a bit to decide this.
20120921 02:07:59< shadowm> Voilà, I'm back at the top level menu after facing this unprecedented usability mess.
20120921 02:08:34< shadowm> I then decide "I'm glad my OS is Mac OS X and not one of those Lunix things that appear to be so popular amongst players of this broken game."
20120921 02:08:47< fendrin> Fine, you had your fun.  I know that I don't have the right images.
20120921 02:08:54< shadowm> -- And that's the end of my adventure as Joe the Random User.
20120921 02:09:03< fendrin> And the arrangement can be improved a lot.
20120921 02:09:16< Espreon> Do it.
20120921 02:09:21< fendrin> Joe the Random User is not downloading a development version and compiling it.
20120921 02:09:35< shadowm> Joe the Random User was seeing this in 1.12.0.
20120921 02:10:03< shadowm> It's perfectly possible that whoever wrote this dialog was hit by a truck in the meantime.
20120921 02:10:18< shadowm> Or simply didn't get around to fix it for any other amount of reasons.
20120921 02:10:33< shadowm> For example, the editor is still a mess.
20120921 02:12:16< shadowm> I'm really quite disappointed that some people seem to assume that development versions automatically get a free pass for any usability issues resulting from unpolished work-in-progress crap. That only helps reinforce the userbase's notion that development versions aren't good for regular use and that players should stick to stable versions at all times.
20120921 02:12:20< Espreon> (... and it'll never get fixed)
20120921 02:12:36< shadowm> Notion which, as we know, resulted in the 1.8.0 lobby fiasco.
20120921 02:13:01< fendrin> Well, that had nothing to do with me.
20120921 02:13:20< shadowm> No, but these issues are more related than you seem to realize.
20120921 02:14:04< shadowm> Basically, don't leave for 1.11.16 what you can fix now.
20120921 02:14:13< fendrin> Well, then just relax and tell me in detail again all the issues you spotted. I will gladly fix them right now.
20120921 02:14:26< shadowm> I already did above from the point of view of Joe the Random User.
20120921 02:14:56< fendrin> Well, let's get more serious now.
20120921 02:15:02< shadowm> That's the most useful PoV from my PoV unless you want me to babble incomprehensible crap about consistency as such.
20120921 02:15:10< shadowm> *and
20120921 02:15:17< fendrin> Having submenus in general is possible and not out of question, right?
20120921 02:15:30< shadowm> No, it's still up for debate.
20120921 02:15:35< fendrin> cool.
20120921 02:15:43< shadowm> As I said, listboxes in Wesnoth do not behave this way.
20120921 02:15:51< shadowm> Except for this particular dialog. But why?
20120921 02:16:47< fendrin> To be honest, I never realized that those buttons (I thought) were listboxes.
20120921 02:16:53< fendrin> Until I looked into the code.
20120921 02:17:14< shadowm> You mean, because they obviously don't look like every other listbox in Wesnoth?
20120921 02:17:31< shadowm> Campaigns menu, Multiplayer menu, Add-ons Manager, Language menu, to name a few.
20120921 02:18:14< shadowm> Also Load Game.
20120921 02:18:45< fendrin> Sorry, I thought they were just buttons.
20120921 02:19:21< fendrin> And felt that the preferences dialog was a little bit special compared to other gui elements in wesnoth.
20120921 02:19:28< shadowm> Well, we could call them foobars and they'd still all look and behave the same.
20120921 02:19:45< shadowm> In particular, until now, the Campaigns menu and the Preferences dialog behaved in nearly the exact same way.
20120921 02:20:02< fendrin> right.
20120921 02:20:15< fendrin> And I do not see a particular need to change it.
20120921 02:20:31< shadowm> So, the first issue is consistency, which has been broken.
20120921 02:20:53< shadowm> One could say that we could ignore that if it looked good in practice, but it doesn't.
20120921 02:21:50< fendrin> Okay, then let's talk about my alternative suggestion, the one that I thought would make it at the end anyway.
20120921 02:21:52< shadowm> It's too confusing and easy to get lost in this non-obvious menu hierarchy, as Joe the Random User discovered (and shortly blogged about).
20120921 02:22:37< fendrin> Let's talk only about the hotkeys submenu, that can live in it's own dialogue happily, right?
20120921 02:22:43< shadowm> Your alternative is adding arrows to entries that are submenus?
20120921 02:22:51< fendrin> No.
20120921 02:23:09< fendrin> Let's talk about just what is now the hotkeys submenu.
20120921 02:23:38< fendrin> Just imagine the current button, "hotkeys" in the general tab will bring up a new dialogue.
20120921 02:24:04< fendrin> This is what a user expects in wesnoth.
20120921 02:24:30< shadowm> Yes, although it is quite poor practice elsewhere.
20120921 02:24:47< fendrin> Yes, but let's get that work done.
20120921 02:25:20< fendrin> Waiting for gui2 is really no option.
20120921 02:27:05< fendrin> I can easily split the class in two with one being the dialog for the hotkeys while the preferences still stays as it is.
20120921 02:27:55< shadowm> I was pondering another approach right now, but go on.
20120921 02:28:10< fendrin> And I think my solution is an exact match to your concerns about hotkey scopes.
20120921 02:30:19< fendrin> Or didn't I get you right? There is now the possibility to configure them and getting informed about the scope concept.
20120921 02:31:01< shadowm> If I recall correctly, it is possible to have toggle buttons in GUI1 that look like command buttons other than the fact that they stay pressed when checked.
20120921 02:31:53< shadowm> Instead of having a Hotkeys dialog that looks exactly like Preferences at first level, the pagination control could be a set of three toggle buttons lined up at the top-center beneath the dialog title label.
20120921 02:32:29 * shadowm tries to do something in the GIMP.
20120921 02:32:37< fendrin> cool
20120921 02:36:58< fendrin> shadowm: Well, but I think it won't stay with 3 scopes. 
20120921 02:37:00< shadowm> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21371130/hotkey-prefs-mockup.png  Pretend one of the buttons is pressed.
20120921 02:37:05< shadowm> Oh.
20120921 02:38:01< fendrin> shadowm: I need a new scope for in menus to make the menus work with gamepads. That needs to be separated or it will eat to much of the gamepads buttons for things that make only sense in dialogs.
20120921 02:38:16< shadowm> Okay, that's a problem. My idea obviously doesn't scale well for an arbitrary amount of scopes as it approaches infinity.
20120921 02:38:44< fendrin> shadowm: And I thought to sort the replay only ones in it's own scope, just to clean up the game one a little. The list has grown confusingly large.
20120921 02:38:58< shadowm> Okay, let me think how it could be possible to implement breadcrumbs in GUI1.
20120921 02:39:04< fendrin> But I can't think of more usable scopes.
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20120921 02:41:53< fendrin> shadowm: Well, we don't need to have breadcrumbs, necessarily. Having a own dialog for the hotkeys is enough to keep the hierarchy flat.
20120921 02:42:39< shadowm> Okay, yes, I suppose that works too, but you want the Hotkeys dialog to have a similar structure to Preferences.
20120921 02:43:15< shadowm> And for that you'd need to implement both in terms of a generic class(set).
20120921 02:43:20< fendrin> Well, isn't it a port of preferences?
20120921 02:43:30< fendrin> s/port/part
20120921 02:44:01< fendrin> Let's talk about the rest of the interface first.
20120921 02:44:33< shadowm> Okay, I'm not sure anymore whether you want Hotkeys to remain a separate dialog (that just so happens to behave like Preferences), or implement it as part of Preferences.
20120921 02:44:47< fendrin> That depends on you.
20120921 02:44:58< fendrin> We can make it like you like it best.
20120921 02:45:24< shadowm> Either way would work as long as there was a simple user-visible mechanism to go back to Preferences.
20120921 02:45:54< shadowm> _And_ some indication as to where the user is; for example, by changing the dialog's title label from 'Preferences' to 'Hotkeys'.
20120921 02:46:10< fendrin> Yeah, and the user also knows about dialogs spawning more of them, the old hotkeys dialog isn't any different.
20120921 02:46:47< fendrin> I first thought that I would need many tabs for joystick, mouse and so on.
20120921 02:46:57< fendrin> But my new plans are different.
20120921 02:47:27< fendrin> All those functions that can be bound to joystick axis can be represented to the user just like the hotkeys are.
20120921 02:47:32< shadowm> I expected the Input tab to have _all_ the non-Hotkey options together, in fact.
20120921 02:47:51< fendrin> Thus I can do all joystick configuration with a dialog similar to the hotkeys one.
20120921 02:48:31< fendrin> And that might deserve own scopes as well, thus it is a brother.
20120921 02:48:34< shadowm> Assuming they can fit at all. I mean, I don't have a joystick and I don't know how many of the commented-out options in Advanced preferences really should exist or can be condensed into simpler option sets.
20120921 02:49:25< fendrin> Well, they should better live in a tag like [hotkey]
20120921 02:49:33< fendrin> Something [input] 
20120921 02:49:55< fendrin> That binds joystick axis to game function.
20120921 02:50:14< shadowm> I thought we were discussing the view, not the model.
20120921 02:50:43< fendrin> Well, thus the view for the preferences dialog is more or less equal, that is the point.
20120921 02:51:21< shadowm> For example, if you have two options in the model controlling x/y axis values, they can be condensed in the view into a pair of numeric spinboxes.
20120921 02:51:26< fendrin> The current preferences could just stay as they were, right after the hotkeys dialog button is the new input dialog button.
20120921 02:51:29< shadowm> Or numeric textboxes in our case, since we suck and don't have spinboxes.
20120921 02:52:42< fendrin> A option needs to get bound to a single item.
20120921 02:52:57< shadowm> Hm, why not use an Input tab as it was the original plan, move the Hotkeys button there, and keep the most important and basic options in that tab along with the aforementioned button and any other buttons that might be necessary to access more complicated options?
20120921 02:53:07< fendrin> Just like you press a key to bind it, you will move the axis of your joystick to bind the function.
20120921 02:53:49< vultraz> god everything would be so much simpler if mordante would just finish GUI2 ._.
20120921 02:54:21< fendrin> The procedure is so similar to hotkey binding that there is no point in using a different gui layout.
20120921 02:54:34< fendrin> Maybe the input binding can even share the same dialog.
20120921 02:55:02< fendrin> The rest of the stuff would fit into a preferences tab, hopefully.
20120921 02:55:43< fendrin> So, yes. That would work. 
20120921 03:02:47< shadowm> Okay, as long as we can all agree that r55344 and r55343 need to be reverted.
20120921 03:03:38< fendrin> sure, no problem
20120921 03:04:10< fendrin> Having a own dialog also means a own file for the thing, that is fine.
20120921 03:05:16< fendrin> But wait.
20120921 03:05:25< fendrin> The images are still useful.
20120921 03:05:48< fendrin> Maybe the konrad image is a little outdated, but the other two are fine for the purpose.
20120921 03:05:57< shadowm> The hideous protoKonrad needs to be destroyed at the very least.
20120921 03:06:09< fendrin> protokonrad lol
20120921 03:06:31< shadowm> (Yes, I know he's the successor to animeKonrad.)
20120921 03:07:38< fendrin> I first thought about using the shadowmaster image for another of the input related tabs.
20120921 03:07:54< shadowm> What.
20120921 03:08:05< shadowm> There's a 'shadowmaster' image?
20120921 03:08:58< Espreon> Hoo boy...
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20120921 03:30:08< CIA-108> fendrin * r55346 /trunk/src/game_preferences_display.cpp: reverts commit #55343
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20120921 14:41:23< AI0867> wesbot: !seen hopman- 
20120921 14:41:23< wesbot> AI0867: The person with the nick hopman- 8d ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth with the message: *.net *.split
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20120921 15:20:37-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 187 bugs, 338 feature requests, 16 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20120921 17:22:22< AI0867> hmm, a [gamelist_diff] isn't just a diff of the [gamelist]
20120921 17:22:47< AI0867> it's a diff of the [gamelist] and the entire collection of [user]
20120921 17:23:13< AI0867> that is, every [game] is contained in the [gamelist], but [user] is top-level
20120921 17:24:02< AI0867> so [gamelist_diff] can edit a [user] directly, but editing a [game] means editing the [gamelist] and then editing the [game] inside that
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20120921 19:21:02< fendrin> shadowm: Hello, some questions: 1) Do you know of a way to define the size of a row in a menu list to avoid the "jumping" when switching the hotkey scope? 2) Do you think it is a good idea to use the //Translators: comment system to mark the hotkey descriptions with a note like: "Please keep short." Or "Keep the size below 15 characters."? 
20120921 19:22:29< fendrin> I noticed that the german translation uses much prose for this items that tends to be unnecessary worth rich.
20120921 19:22:43< fendrin> s/worth/word
20120921 19:25:09< fendrin> Ivanovic: ^
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20120921 19:36:05< CIA-108> fendrin * r55347 /trunk/images/icons/ (icon-mouse.png icon-game.png icon-generic.png): Rearanged the icons for the hotkey scopes in the new hotkey preferences dialog.
20120921 19:37:17-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20120921 19:37:26< fendrin> hi noy
20120921 19:37:40< noy> hey
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20120921 19:55:40< lipkab> boucman: Ping.
20120921 19:56:51< boucman> hey
20120921 19:58:27< lipkab> Well, any news?
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20120921 20:12:06< lipkab> boucman: ^
20120921 20:12:15< boucman> ??
20120921 20:12:36< lipkab> ...regarding mordante.
20120921 20:13:24< boucman> no news so far
20120921 20:13:31< boucman> did he join irc ?
20120921 20:13:37< lipkab> No.
20120921 20:13:58< lipkab> He committed something but he didn't come here.
20120921 20:14:07< boucman> k, i'll try to lok at your patch
20120921 20:14:15< lipkab> Ok thanks.
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20120921 20:45:12< Ivanovic> fendrin: regarding the translation stuff: if you know better terms, please tell them / change the entries
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20120921 21:43:58< SeattleDad> Hi lipkab
20120921 21:44:26< lipkab> Hello SeattleDad.
20120921 21:46:50< SeattleDad> I was wondering if you might be able to try out the new ML_Recruiter_0.2.1 patch that I posted at  https://gna.org/patch/?3479
20120921 21:47:16< SeattleDad> I added a lot of debugging there in the hope that it might enable me to track down your build problem
20120921 21:47:44< lipkab> Oops.
20120921 21:47:56< lipkab> Indeed I could.
20120921 21:48:10< lipkab> I forgot about that, sorry.
20120921 21:48:15< SeattleDad> That would be awesome.  
20120921 21:48:25< SeattleDad> Sorry you've had to be the guinea pig.  
20120921 21:49:02< SeattleDad> Alarantalara has been able to build successfully, but he's on a Mac.  You're the first person trying it on Linux.
20120921 21:52:24< lipkab> SeattleDad: I triggered the build process, but it's going to take a while to compile. Reporting in ~10 minutes.
20120921 21:56:41< SeattleDad> Thanks a bunch.
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20120921 22:04:55< SeattleDad> lipkab:  A good command to use would be  Wesnoth --log-debug=ai/ml --log-info=ai/testing,ai/ml --nogui --multiplayer --controller 1:ai --controller 2:ai --parm 1:gold:100 --parm 2:gold:100 --parm 1:village_gold:2 --parm 2:village_gold:2 --rng-seed 0 --scenario multiplayer_The_Freelands --ai-config 1:ai/ais/ml_ai_faction_specific_weighted_random.cfg --ai-config 2:ai/dev/default_ai_with_recruit_log.cfg --side 1:Rebels --side
20120921 22:04:55< SeattleDad>  2:Undead
20120921 22:09:24< lipkab> Seems it's going to be 20 minutes... my machine is starting to show age :(
20120921 22:09:26< shadowm> fendrin: Re (1), because of the scrollbar? Re (2) I think that should be an actual translation policy and not something we have to specify for every string.
20120921 22:10:11< shadowm> Translators should really, _really_ test their output with Wesnoth and judge for themselves whether it works or not, regardless of anything.
20120921 22:12:46< SeattleDad> No problem. Thanks for running the test.
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20120921 22:21:54< fendrin> Long translations kill this dialog. I am going to crop them off at some point and printing a warning that the translation is too long in the chosen language.
20120921 22:24:34< lipkab> SeattleDad: Running the command you gave results in an error "unknown domain: ai/ml". However, if I remove the appropriate flags, it seems to work fine!
20120921 22:26:04< lipkab> Now I'll try to make a match against the ML AI from within the GUI.
20120921 22:28:51< lipkab> Oh wait...
20120921 22:29:01< SeattleDad> Are you just removing --log-debug=ai/ml --log-info=ai/testing,ai/ml to get it to run?
20120921 22:29:58< SeattleDad> I you run without anything from the command line, you're running against the default AI rather than my AI
20120921 22:30:26< SeattleDad> Of course, you can also just select it from within the GUI, that would be fine too.
20120921 22:30:45< lipkab> ... patch must have gone mad, it didn't actually apply the patch ...
20120921 22:30:50< lipkab> *facepalm*
20120921 22:31:40< lipkab> Aye, my instance of the patch here somehow went empty.
20120921 22:31:42< SeattleDad> Instructions on applying the patch are here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Machine_Learning_Recruiter#Applying_the_patch
20120921 22:32:01< lipkab> I'll have to download it again.
20120921 22:32:11< SeattleDad> I've got to go to a meeting.  Will be back in about two hours.
20120921 22:32:50< lipkab> I'll be sleeping in two hours, but I'll send you a forum PM about the results.
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20120921 23:24:23< CIA-108> jamit * r55348 /trunk/src/unit.cpp: Update the list of "pure" unit_type attributes.
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20120921 23:51:29< CIA-108> jamit * r55349 /trunk/src/unit_types.cpp: Avoid creating attributes when reading their values.
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--- Log closed Sat Sep 22 00:00:18 2012