--- Log opened Tue Sep 04 00:00:16 2012
20120904 00:05:26< CIA-50> morningstar: Tom Preston-Werner master * r06f63b4 / (lib/grit/grit.rb test/helper.rb test/test_grit.rb): stub git call for Grit#heads test f:15 Case#1 - http://git.io/tr4Y7A
20120904 00:05:32< CIA-50> morningstar: Tom Preston-Werner master * r5057e76 / test/test_grit.rb : clean up heads test f:2hrs - http://git.io/bh5mTw
20120904 00:05:36< CIA-50> morningstar: Tom Preston-Werner master * ra47fd41 / (lib/grit.rb lib/grit/commit.rb lib/grit/grit.rb): add more comments throughout - http://git.io/YpcsJw
20120904 00:05:52< CIA-50> morningstar: Tom Preston-Werner master * r06f63b4 / (lib/grit/grit.rb test/helper.rb test/test_grit.rb): stub git call for Grit#heads test f:15 Case#1 - http://git.io/tr4Y7A
20120904 00:05:59< CIA-50> morningstar: Tom Preston-Werner master * r5057e76 / test/test_grit.rb : clean up heads test f:2hrs - http://git.io/bh5mTw
20120904 00:06:06< CIA-50> morningstar: Tom Preston-Werner master * ra47fd41 / (lib/grit.rb lib/grit/commit.rb lib/grit/grit.rb): add more comments throughout - http://git.io/YpcsJw
20120904 00:08:18< CIA-50> morningstar: Tom Preston-Werner master * r06f63b4 / (lib/grit/grit.rb test/helper.rb test/test_grit.rb): stub git call for Grit#heads test f:15 Case#1 - http://git.io/tr4Y7A
20120904 00:08:22< CIA-50> morningstar: Tom Preston-Werner master * r5057e76 / test/test_grit.rb : clean up heads test f:2hrs - http://git.io/bh5mTw
20120904 00:08:26< CIA-50> morningstar: Tom Preston-Werner master * ra47fd41 / (lib/grit.rb lib/grit/commit.rb lib/grit/grit.rb): add more comments throughout - http://git.io/YpcsJw
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20120904 03:05:48< skyfaller> hi mattsc, Alarantalara :)
20120904 03:06:06< Alarantalara> Hello
20120904 03:13:13< mattsc> hi
20120904 03:13:55< skyfaller> we're all here! let's party :D
20120904 03:14:18< skyfaller> I'm in the middle of writing a post in the forum about what we should work on next
20120904 03:14:32< mattsc> skyfaller: I asked AI0867 whether this is the right place (since he's listed up there in the topic) and he said we could do this on #wesnoth-dev
20120904 03:14:41< skyfaller> oh yeah?
20120904 03:14:44< mattsc> But here's ok too.  Any opinion.
20120904 03:14:49< mattsc> ?
20120904 03:14:53< skyfaller> well, pick one channel :P
20120904 03:14:56< skyfaller> I don't care
20120904 03:15:00< mattsc> Well, we are here.
20120904 03:15:14< mattsc> We'll just blame it on you.  ;)
20120904 03:15:19< skyfaller> I feel like this channel is quieter, so we'll have fewer interruptions
20120904 03:15:32< mattsc> Seriously, cool, I'll be looking forward to seeing that post
20120904 03:16:33< mattsc> First I'm going to fix that bug Alarantalara found though.  It's not as easy as I thought.
20120904 03:16:56< skyfaller> ok
20120904 03:17:33< mattsc> That function get_attack_with_counter_attack() needs to be redone anyway, it's a dinosaur left over from a previous AI.
20120904 03:17:57< skyfaller> yay refactoring code?
20120904 03:18:10< mattsc> yep.
20120904 03:18:36< mattsc> But I have the better code written already, I just need to make it work for this function.
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20120904 03:41:45< Alarantalara> I've just made Fred a lot more cowardly with injured units. It doesn't account for those who cannot escape yet though
20120904 03:43:39< skyfaller> Alarantalara: that may be a good start, but sometimes it is correct to risk an injured unit if it has a good chance of killing a more valuable unit
20120904 03:44:10< skyfaller> it may also be worth risking an injured unit if it is about to level, which would allow it to rejoin the battle right away instead of having to retreat to heal
20120904 03:44:33< skyfaller> we still haven't taught Fred about XP :/
20120904 03:45:15< Alarantalara> Indeed, not to mention sometimes suiciding units that can't escape to control which enemy unit gets XP
20120904 03:45:30< skyfaller> right
20120904 03:48:01< mattsc> In general though, I like this.  I've been meaning to do this for quite some time!
20120904 03:48:29< skyfaller> does this make Fred actually shield injured units, or just retreat them rather than attacking with them
20120904 03:48:31< skyfaller> ?
20120904 03:48:41< mattsc> skyfaller: It's really no difference from what there was before (as in, the decision when to retreat), just that the units now also go for villages further than one move away
20120904 03:49:01< skyfaller> hm, interesting, that sounds very useful
20120904 03:49:08< mattsc> No shielding yet, if I read the code correctly.
20120904 03:49:27< Alarantalara> Just retreat them, but since they move at maximum speed and other retreating units during the day do not, they're moderately likely to be covered
20120904 03:49:30< mattsc> Remember that when a mortally wounded unit could not get to a village, it would just sit there and do nothing (or attack)?
20120904 03:49:41< skyfaller> ah, I see
20120904 03:50:00< mattsc> This commit should take care of that.
20120904 03:50:23< mattsc> Thanks, Alarantalara 
20120904 03:50:31< Alarantalara> you're welcome
20120904 03:54:21< mattsc> Alarantalara: I have now confirmed empirically as well that that function returns a wrong value
20120904 03:55:08< mattsc> By contrast, the one above it calc_counter_attack() produces the correct value, but is less efficient.
20120904 03:55:53< mattsc> So I am going to use that one for now and we can see if it slows things down too much.
20120904 04:01:23< mattsc> Seems to be ok for now.
20120904 04:01:32< mattsc> for what I can see, I mean.
20120904 04:01:52< mattsc> However, Alarantalara, I get this:
20120904 04:01:54< mattsc>      - Executing retreat_injured_units CA
20120904 04:01:54< mattsc> 20120903 19:00:47 error ai/actions: Error #2007 (E_NOT_REACHED_DESTINATION) in full move by side 1 from location 24,20 to location 28,5
20120904 04:02:17< Alarantalara> Oh bother, I set the target as final instead of next_hop
20120904 04:02:30< skyfaller> mattsc, Alarantalara: here's my post about what we should work on next, sorry it's so long: http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34976&p=536975#p536975
20120904 04:04:59< skyfaller> obviously, fixing bugs comes before all other improvements to the AI though :)
20120904 04:05:53< mattsc> Well, my bug is fixed (just committed it) and the fix for that error ^ should be easy.
20120904 04:06:35< Alarantalara> Very much so
20120904 04:09:03< CIA-50> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r15867 /trunk/Tales_of_the_Setting_Sun/ (25 files in 6 dirs): certain enemies should sometimes drop things when they die, but this needs more testing. It also needs expanding, because it does not yet make up for losing the pennies from heaven.
20120904 04:10:04< skyfaller> hm... I don't suppose we could get the bot to announce commits from our repository as well in this channel, could we?
20120904 04:10:36< Alarantalara> I can check
20120904 04:10:38< mattsc> Since we chose to use github, no.  If we'd gone with umc-dev, it'd do that.
20120904 04:11:01< mattsc> Or am I wrong about that?
20120904 04:11:10< skyfaller> I see no reason why the bot couldn't be modified :) At least, if the right people agree
20120904 04:13:29< mattsc> skyfaller: Done reading your post, that's great!
20120904 04:13:37< skyfaller> any comments?
20120904 04:14:39< mattsc> Not really.  I was hoping that A was partially taken care of with one of my commits from today, but your replays show that it isn't.
20120904 04:15:30< mattsc> You pretty much confirm what I was thinking
20120904 04:15:51< mattsc> I'm not sure yet what the best way is to go about D, but as you said, that's lower priority than the rest.
20120904 04:16:25< skyfaller> D is essential for beating pros like me ;-) But noobs and AIs don't know how to use TOD properly anyway
20120904 04:16:36< mattsc> :)
20120904 04:16:56< mattsc> One thing I would add to the list, maybe as a sub section of C:
20120904 04:17:19< mattsc> I think the priorities of _when_ to steal a village also need some work, not just _which_ village to steal
20120904 04:17:33< skyfaller> ah, yes
20120904 04:17:43< skyfaller> maybe we should formalize that forum post as a page on the wiki
20120904 04:18:01< mattsc> Yeah, that would be good.
20120904 04:18:06< skyfaller> I just wasn't sure where/how to put it on the wiki, so I got my thoughts out on the forum first
20120904 04:18:35< mattsc> It will also be seen by many more people on the forum, so we might get some additional comments
20120904 04:18:45< skyfaller> indeed
20120904 04:19:13< mattsc> Just add a link to the front page of the wiki to "high priority tasks" or something
20120904 04:19:31< Alarantalara> Do you want to just raise the priority of poisoning again? I can try to eliminate mistakes in target choice as they appear.
20120904 04:19:53< skyfaller> well, I don't think that's all that's required here
20120904 04:20:02< mattsc> I think it's more complicated than that.
20120904 04:20:25< mattsc> I've tried that and it doesn't work well either, has a bunch of different short comings
20120904 04:20:43< skyfaller> look at the 2nd game at http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34976&start=360#p536712
20120904 04:20:50< mattsc> I think that we need some criterion that sometimes gives a score higher than the rush, and sometimes one lower
20120904 04:21:02< skyfaller> especially turn 7
20120904 04:21:27< skyfaller> when the assassin actually leaves the village rather than poisoning the unit right next to it, that's bizarre
20120904 04:23:24< skyfaller> similarly, see the 2nd game of http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34976&start=360#p536710  especially turn 8. Why does Fred abandon the village to poison a unit standing further away?
20120904 04:23:31< mattsc> I do know what causes that.
20120904 04:23:49< mattsc> And raising the priority of the poison attacks would take care of it.
20120904 04:24:14< mattsc> But we had that before and it has its own problems.  We really need some sort of hybrid between the two.
20120904 04:24:17< skyfaller> mattsc: what about that other thing I just linked? He didn't leave to grab a village, he left to make a different poison attack
20120904 04:24:31< mattsc> hold on, haven't seen it yet
20120904 04:27:07< mattsc> poor judgment?
20120904 04:27:14< skyfaller> lol
20120904 04:27:23< skyfaller> we need to tell Fred to stop drinking so much :P
20120904 04:28:37< mattsc> I just checked the code, there is a line in the rating that should prefer villages all else being equal
20120904 04:28:49< skyfaller> so why did he make that mistake?
20120904 04:28:54< mattsc> And since village and forest has the same defense rating, I don't know why that happened.
20120904 04:29:05< skyfaller> can you run it again and see if it continues to happen?
20120904 04:29:51< skyfaller> does Fred prefer to move units before attacking? Is he opposed to staying in the same place?
20120904 04:30:37< mattsc> Yes.  And I can produce debug output and change things and see how the move changes...
20120904 04:30:50< mattsc> No, he doesn't care whether he moves them or not.
20120904 04:31:03< skyfaller> ok
20120904 04:31:23< mattsc> My guess is that he considers this a safer place, as he is out of the range of the archer in the SW, but I'd have to confirm that
20120904 04:31:48< skyfaller> maybe what I/we should do is take each of these problems I've pointed out, make them into bug reports that refer to the specific replay where they crop up, and use those as tests for when the bug is "fixed"
20120904 04:32:37< Alarantalara> Save games the turn before the mistake are probably better tests
20120904 04:32:52< skyfaller> ok
20120904 04:32:59< mattsc> If you want to formalize it that way, sure.  But essentially that's how I've been using your posts.
20120904 04:33:12< skyfaller> sounds good
20120904 04:33:12< Alarantalara> Then you can load can, hit end turn, and see it the move is corrected
20120904 04:33:19< Alarantalara> s/can/game
20120904 04:33:26< skyfaller> tracking bugs is nice, it helps us track our progress :)
20120904 04:33:37< mattsc> Look at the main issues you pointed out (and ignoring the minor ones ;)), then extracting a save game from the replay of the crucial mistakes, and fixing the code until it takes care of them.
20120904 04:34:05< mattsc> Yes, absolutely.
20120904 04:34:26< mattsc> Just telling you that I've already been doing that, just for myself on a piece of paper.  :D
20120904 04:34:37< skyfaller> ok :)
20120904 04:34:43< mattsc> Now that we have several people on this, this makes a lot of sense.
20120904 04:35:17< skyfaller> just updated that post to also have (E) Putting a unit next to an empty village when an enemy can reach that village.
20120904 04:35:39< mattsc> cool.
20120904 04:35:44< Alarantalara> That's visible against an AI
20120904 04:36:24< mattsc> sorry?
20120904 04:36:57< skyfaller> Alarantalara: what do you mean?
20120904 04:37:04< Alarantalara> The E behaviour is exploited by the generic AI
20120904 04:37:12< skyfaller> ah, ok
20120904 04:37:59< skyfaller> ... blergh, I guess it should go between B and C then
20120904 04:38:35< mattsc> skyfaller, if you could put a couple of save games up on the bug tracker where Fred fails to take the western villages, I'll get going on that.
20120904 04:38:38< skyfaller> I guess I'll just re-letter them
20120904 04:39:46< mattsc> ... but I still want to finish that healer_support thing first.  Been fixing bugs instead.  :P
20120904 04:41:21< mattsc> Alarantalara: in your next_hop fix, have you check somewhere that the unit can get to that village?
20120904 04:41:54< Alarantalara> I ask the AI to find a path, and pick a village with a short path
20120904 04:42:06< Alarantalara> So it should be possible to get to the village
20120904 04:42:23< mattsc> Oh, so as long as not all villages are blocked...
20120904 04:42:24< Alarantalara> I might have missed checking that a path was returned
20120904 04:42:38< mattsc> ... which might still happen if the unit is entirely surrounded by enemies.
20120904 04:43:14< mattsc> The thing is that next_hop returns nil if there is no path (and find_path does too, I think), which can cause errors if it's not checked for.
20120904 04:49:28< mattsc> Alarantalara: http://pastebin.com/1mnCdAqV
20120904 04:49:49< mattsc> Happened when I had an injured grunt entirely cornered by enemies
20120904 04:50:55< mattsc> http://imagebin.org/227092
20120904 04:51:22< Alarantalara> I've already submitted a correction
20120904 04:52:14< mattsc> Yep, that works.  Thanks.
20120904 04:52:16< Alarantalara> It also prevents running across the entire map
20120904 04:52:51< mattsc> Yeah, I saw that.  (And "it works" means I tested it on that situation I showed above)
20120904 04:53:00< Alarantalara> As did I
20120904 04:53:10< skyfaller> I didn't!
20120904 04:53:27< mattsc> We'll forgive you this time.
20120904 04:53:34< skyfaller> ;-)
20120904 04:53:42< mattsc> But I should have known that Alarantalara did...
20120904 04:58:06< mattsc> Just ran 3 games of Fred vs. RCA Rebels (150 gold): no error messages.  Looks like the bugs got fixed (or at least don't throw errors)
20120904 05:11:34< Alarantalara> skyfaller: The rush should now start attacking when there are two units instead of one. It's not much of an improvement though, since it can end up behind enemy lines in some cases
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20120904 05:14:32< mattsc> Alarantalara: while this is probably a bad idea, the implementation has a problem
20120904 05:15:02< mattsc> It results in the execution not changing the gamestate, which gets the rush_right CA blacklisted
20120904 05:15:20< mattsc> Soory, while this is probably a _good_ idea, ...
20120904 05:15:26< Alarantalara> It shouldn't - there is a set of moves that it tries making afterward
20120904 05:15:59< mattsc> Hmm, true...
20120904 05:16:54< mattsc> Ugh, it comes down to this juggling of other CAs vs the rush again.  But that's nothing new because of your commit.
20120904 05:17:03< mattsc> I take back my objection.  :)
20120904 05:23:18< mattsc> Let me give you an example though: http://imagebin.org/227095
20120904 05:23:46< mattsc> Should that remaining grunt attack that archer at the bottom?
20120904 05:24:49< Alarantalara> Yes
20120904 05:24:54< mattsc> skyfaller, Alarantalara: ^
20120904 05:25:02< mattsc> (oops, sorry, too slow)
20120904 05:25:03< Alarantalara> I take it I dropped the last attack
20120904 05:25:20< mattsc> I don't know, this is an artificial example I put together.
20120904 05:25:31< mattsc> But my guess would be that it now wouldn't attack.
20120904 05:29:56< Alarantalara> It did attack with all possible units in a saved game I have, so I won't worry for now
20120904 05:30:10< mattsc> Sorry, had to run off for a moment ...  I just figured I could described what I meant better by putting it together than by describing it in words.
20120904 05:30:22< mattsc> Ok, sounds good.
20120904 05:30:56< mattsc> If it turns out to be a problem, maybe change it to the _first_ attack of the rush needs to be with more than one unit.
20120904 05:31:47< Alarantalara> i.e. set a flag after the first attack is made and allow it to be set if there is only 1 attack in the table
20120904 05:32:23< mattsc> Something like that, yes
20120904 05:32:39< mattsc> Btw, I just had it play through that example and it did not attack.  
20120904 05:32:53< mattsc> It took the moves away from the grunt on that mountain hex he's sitting on.
20120904 05:34:11< Alarantalara> Did the other grunts make an attack that turn?
20120904 05:34:58< mattsc> No, I just put it into that situation and had it play once through the rush_right CA
20120904 05:35:17< Alarantalara> If the time of day was dwan, it wouldn't attack anyway
20120904 05:35:30< Alarantalara> *dawn
20120904 05:35:39< mattsc> Ah, good point.  Let me try that again.
20120904 05:41:20< mattsc> Alarantalara: Tried a few things and it does not attack in a situation like that
20120904 05:43:09< mattsc> Anyways, guys, thanks much for all the help.  This is great!  But I need to take care of some other aspects of life now...
20120904 05:43:33< Alarantalara> Bother I had hoped it would, since it did in example I was testing with. I suppose I'll need to check for allies near the target if there is only one attack
20120904 05:44:21< mattsc> Yeah, that would be an option
20120904 05:44:52< mattsc> I do something like that in the poison attack with the support units (if there's already one there, you don't need a support unit)
20120904 05:45:01< mattsc> You could use that as a template.
20120904 05:50:29< Alarantalara> Ah, I see. If the second last attack killed the enemy, it reevaluates and doesn't attack then
20120904 05:54:13< Alarantalara> However, I need to sleep, so I'll deal with it tomorrow
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20120904 06:11:10< SpoOkyMagician> meh, im running outta ideas for UMC. mostly been there/done that. :\
20120904 06:12:39< SpoOkyMagician> (or seen/done it before.)
20120904 06:13:10< SpoOkyMagician> er done before *
20120904 06:15:23 * SpoOkyMagician tries to think outside the box
20120904 06:20:40< SpoOkyMagician> eh i got some ideas but still, nothing interesting/solid Id want to try...
20120904 06:31:57< SpoOkyMagician> hm... i wonder...
20120904 06:35:27< SpoOkyMagician> naa... nevermind. anyway, ill stop chatting. (goes plays wesnoth)
20120904 07:09:12< CIA-50> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r15868 /trunk/After_the_Storm/base-rc.cfg: AtS: stuff
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20120904 09:09:26< AI0867> 04:11 < skyfaller> I see no reason why the bot couldn't be modified :) At least, if the right people agree <-- that can certainly be done
20120904 09:09:39< AI0867> does your github repo have a CIA commit hook yet?
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20120904 15:06:55< skyfaller> AI0867: I don't think so, but when mattsc gets online again I'll get it sorted out with him. Unless Alarantalara has admin access?
20120904 15:07:11< AI0867> that is something we can check
20120904 15:07:24< AI0867> link to the repo?
20120904 15:07:45< skyfaller> https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos
20120904 15:08:52< AI0867> alarantara does seem to have access
20120904 15:10:48< AI0867> Alarantalara: do you have admin access as well as push access to the rpo?
20120904 15:10:54< AI0867> s/rpo/repo/
20120904 15:11:14< Alarantalara> I don't think so
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20120904 15:11:42< AI0867> mattsc: there you are
20120904 15:11:52< mattsc> Hi, Alarantalara 
20120904 15:11:55< AI0867> have you set up any CIA commit hooks yet?
20120904 15:12:10< mattsc> Hi AI0867 
20120904 15:12:20< mattsc> Umm, I don't know what that is, so probably not
20120904 15:12:31< AI0867> well, if you go to the admin part on github
20120904 15:12:40< AI0867> there's a "service hooks" tab
20120904 15:12:50< AI0867> you can then activate CIA
20120904 15:13:00< AI0867> you need a projectname, but that's all
20120904 15:13:00< mattsc> Yes, I see them.
20120904 15:13:12< AI0867> I can then have the CIA bot here add that project to the stream
20120904 15:13:28< mattsc> I saw them before, but didn't know what that was.  Thanks!
20120904 15:13:49< AI0867> I figured this out yesterday =P
20120904 15:14:07< mattsc> So I made you learn something?  Cool!
20120904 15:14:12< AI0867> I'm now adding CIA hooks programatically using the JSON API
20120904 15:14:23< AI0867> unfortunately, the hooks are far less documented there
20120904 15:14:37< AI0867> I had to go open up the manual version to see what everything did
20120904 15:15:23< mattsc> What's the difference between project and module name?
20120904 15:15:59< AI0867> module = part of project
20120904 15:16:14< AI0867> in case of wescamp, the project is wescamp, the module is the addon+version
20120904 15:16:22< AI0867> you can just leave it empty if you don't need it
20120904 15:16:26< mattsc> Ah, ok.  So same thing in my case.
20120904 15:16:36< mattsc> Ok, that what I'll do.
20120904 15:17:07< AI0867> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/libgithub.py?r1=55235&r2=55239 <-- this is the stuff I wrote yesterday regarding commit hooks
20120904 15:18:06< mattsc> Cool
20120904 15:18:16< AI0867> the API is rather nice once you get past the undocumented stuff
20120904 15:18:28< mattsc> :)
20120904 15:18:34< AI0867> like the "security features" for private repos that apply to public ones too
20120904 15:18:45< mattsc> I just put the service hook in.  Project name: Wesnoth-AI-Demos
20120904 15:18:49< AI0867> that is, some requests will just return 404 if you're not authenticated
20120904 15:18:51< AI0867> k
20120904 15:19:09< AI0867> okay, added to #wesnoth-umc-dev
20120904 15:19:10< mattsc> I'm glad you figured it out.  :)
20120904 15:19:17< mattsc> Great, thanks!
20120904 15:19:34< mattsc> Hope it's ok to show all those little commits here.  :)
20120904 15:19:50< AI0867> fine with me
20120904 15:20:14< mattsc> Thanks very much!
20120904 15:21:49< CIA-59> Wesnoth-AI-Demos: mattsc master * rd8177e0 / scenarios/switchboard.cfg : Re-enabled Micro AI signposts in Switchboard sceanrio - http://git.io/7GBBTg
20120904 15:22:15< AI0867> also: http://cia.vc/stats/project/Wesnoth-AI-Demos
20120904 15:22:22< mattsc> Cool, it works (albeit with a typo, but that's not CIA's fault).  Thanks!
20120904 15:22:43< AI0867> CIA's time issues seem to be increasing
20120904 15:22:58< AI0867> it's now over a quarter day behind the rest of the world
20120904 15:23:01< AI0867> in timestamps at least
20120904 15:23:15< AI0867> UTC clock
20120904 15:23:16< AI0867> 06:29 on Sep 04, 2012
20120904 15:23:21< AI0867> and that there's probably the cause
20120904 15:23:38< mattsc> My commit happened 24,695 seconds in the future!
20120904 15:23:48< mattsc> I'm good!
20120904 15:24:49< mattsc> It's hard to believe that there are still servers out there that don't run NTP (or whatever today's NTP is) ...
20120904 15:24:57< AI0867> openntpd mainly
20120904 15:25:00< AI0867> it probably is
20120904 15:25:09< AI0867> but adjtime rejects changes that are too large
20120904 15:25:24< AI0867> so you have to 'manually' adjust it
20120904 15:25:28< mattsc> Oh, right...  I haven't set up an ntp server myself in years...
20120904 15:25:35< AI0867> which openntpd tends to do once you restart it
20120904 15:25:40< AI0867> unless you tell it not to
20120904 15:28:54< skyfaller> mattsc: good morning :)
20120904 15:29:11< mattsc> skyfaller: hi
20120904 15:29:11< skyfaller> AI0867: thanks for adding us!
20120904 15:30:30< mattsc> Alarantalara: I think we had a miscommunication about how the rush_right CA works
20120904 15:30:31-!- Alarantalara [~Adium@CPEc0c1c09e8055-CM00252eac6d62.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20120904 15:31:12< mattsc> It only attacks one enemy per execution, it doesn't do the entire rush in one call.
20120904 15:31:17< mattsc> Hmm, bad timing ...
20120904 15:32:24< skyfaller> I really ought to get irssi running, that way I would never leave IRC
20120904 15:33:27< mattsc> I prefer to be offline when I am not around, actually.  I do read the logs when I come back though.
20120904 15:34:34< skyfaller> oh, I enjoy reading scrollback when I come back, as long as the channel isn't too busy
20120904 15:51:52< mattsc> skyfaller: So I finally got to watch the "Ron kills Fred" game.  I'm actually not as disappointed with the behavior on the left as I would have thought.  :)
20120904 15:52:16< mattsc> Sure, Fred fails to reclaim the villages, but I think he actually does a good job getting rid of the enemies sitting on them.
20120904 15:52:33< mattsc> Well, decent job, at least.
20120904 15:52:51< mattsc> So it's a question of village grabbing rather than of attacking the enemies, I think.
20120904 16:01:26< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r15869 /trunk/NX-RPG/lua/gui/ (inventory.lua item_pickup.lua): NX: major updates to inventory design and functionality accumulated over the peroid when my internet was down
20120904 16:01:41< mattsc> skyfaller: Question: at the beginning of Turn 8 of that game, Ron has taken all 4 NW villages and is sitting on 2 of them.  Should Fred take the two open vills first, or try to get rid of the enemy first?
20120904 16:01:46< mattsc> The former, I presume?
20120904 16:02:05< vultraz> lolwut?
20120904 16:02:07< vultraz> Ron?
20120904 16:02:14< vultraz> Fred?
20120904 16:02:52< AI0867> the grunt rush AIs
20120904 16:03:01< AI0867> fred = freelands player 1 orc
20120904 16:03:04< AI0867> ron = generic
20120904 16:03:25< AI0867> the late ed played elves
20120904 16:04:31< mattsc> It was a silly joke that became a fixture  :)
20120904 16:05:00< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r15870 /trunk/NX-RPG/images/misc/active_item_indicator.png: NX: added overlay image to be BLIT()ed onto an item's image in inventory if it is active
20120904 16:05:50< vultraz> Someone is an HP fan :P
20120904 16:06:45< mattsc> Actually, I haven't read any of the books and seen exactly one of the movies.  :P
20120904 16:07:09< vultraz> o_O
20120904 16:07:26< mattsc> Fred was something green and slimey living in the bottom of a cup back when I went to school...
20120904 16:07:44< mattsc> But that's not where the name came from either.  :D
20120904 16:14:08-!- mattsc [~mattsc@216.123.55.165] has quit [Quit: I'm asleep]
20120904 16:28:52< skyfaller> Fred's dead, baby
20120904 16:35:37-!- mattsc [~mattsc@fw.hia.nrc.ca] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20120904 16:36:38< skyfaller> mattsc: welcome back!
20120904 16:36:49< mattsc> Hey
20120904 16:37:39< mattsc> Any comment on my questions up there ^
20120904 16:38:33< skyfaller> yes, definitely grab villages first because it is daytime
20120904 16:38:48< skyfaller> if it were night I'd say get in your damage and trap the enemy
20120904 16:39:03< skyfaller> but you're going to have a hard time killing those units at day, prioritize village-grabbing
20120904 16:39:36< skyfaller> I do think Fred has a very serious problem with reclaiming his villages
20120904 16:39:40< mattsc> That's what I thought.
20120904 16:39:59< mattsc> Yes, he does.  However, the nice thing is that all the pieces needed to do something about that are in place.
20120904 16:40:14< mattsc> We "just" need to get the relative priorities sorted out.
20120904 16:40:15< skyfaller> also note that the goblin exhibits flaw (C), standing next to an empty village
20120904 16:40:33< skyfaller> allowing the wolf to damage him for low cost
20120904 16:40:53< mattsc> On Turn 9?  that's because he just killed the unit that was on the village.
20120904 16:41:00< skyfaller> no, turn 7
20120904 16:41:34< skyfaller> I wish there were a way to back up a single turn in replays
20120904 16:42:15< mattsc> It's easy enough with "skip animation", I guess.
20120904 16:42:41< mattsc> I see what you mean.  He couldn't have reached the village, so he should have gone for a hex not next to an empty village...
20120904 16:42:48< skyfaller> exactly
20120904 16:42:53< mattsc> Ok.
20120904 16:42:53< skyfaller> Fred does this constantly
20120904 16:43:13< mattsc> But not intentionally.  It just happens.
20120904 16:43:18< skyfaller> yes :)
20120904 16:43:30< mattsc> I'll work on that, but let's first take care of the NW village situation.
20120904 16:43:36< skyfaller> okiedoke
20120904 16:43:39< AI0867> as a refinement, you could allow it if you're sure no enemies are in range
20120904 16:43:45< AI0867> but in general, don't do that
20120904 16:43:54< mattsc> ok
20120904 16:43:58< mattsc> So while we're at it...  If you go back to Turn ... (umm, hold on)
20120904 16:45:02< mattsc> 5
20120904 16:45:04< skyfaller> it's also OK to stand next to an empty village if it is not possible for an enemy to get into it, e.g. b/c there are friendly units on either side providing ZoC
20120904 16:45:34< mattsc> On the left only, what would you have done in Fred's place there, with the wolf/grunt combination on both sides?
20120904 16:45:56< skyfaller> mattsc: wait, what? are you talking about a specific turn?
20120904 16:45:57< skyfaller> oh
20120904 16:45:58< skyfaller> 5
20120904 16:46:00< skyfaller> sorry
20120904 16:47:29< skyfaller> you have to pull the grunt back to the village.
20120904 16:48:08< skyfaller> I would either put the wolf into Fred's far left village at 8,5, to maintain our villages and keep units concentrated in case we decide to deal damage later
20120904 16:48:30< skyfaller> or send the wolf on a village-stealing expedition since wolves suck at dealing damage anyway
20120904 16:48:31< mattsc> But it's night.  You told me to attack at night, right?  :)  So what is the difference here (to tell Fred) why he shouldn't attack in this case.
20120904 16:48:43< skyfaller> hm
20120904 16:49:02< skyfaller> what's the ctk on the enemy wolf?
20120904 16:50:03< mattsc> I'd have to check that, but if I only ever go for an attack with >0 ctk, we'd rarely attack healthy units, wouldn't we?
20120904 16:50:17< skyfaller> the problem is that your grunt is really injured
20120904 16:50:30< mattsc> I can't have overwhelming superiority on all attacks on the map.
20120904 16:50:47< mattsc> Yea, so cahne to die, rather than chance to kill, maybe?
20120904 16:50:52< skyfaller> maybe... 
20120904 16:50:56< skyfaller> here's the thing, you want to hold villages with grunts
20120904 16:50:58< skyfaller> they are cheap
20120904 16:51:01< skyfaller> they are dodgy
20120904 16:51:11< skyfaller> and when they are at full-health, they have a lot of HP
20120904 16:51:21< mattsc> yeah
20120904 16:51:26< skyfaller> so you want to get the grunt into the village and hope it lives and heals
20120904 16:51:47< skyfaller> if it lives, it'll deal a lot of retaliation, the enemies have to attack it from 40%
20120904 16:52:18< mattsc> ok
20120904 16:52:25< skyfaller> I guess if I put the grunt on the village, I would send the wolf to steal villages
20120904 16:52:35< mattsc> so do you think moving south on the previous turn was a mistake already?
20120904 16:52:38< skyfaller> because if the enemy fails to kill my village-holding grunt, I'll end up with a village advantage
20120904 16:52:46< mattsc> ok
20120904 16:54:11< skyfaller> moving south was not an *obvious* mistake
20120904 16:54:28< skyfaller> note that Fred was smart enough to kill his grunt and wolf out of range of the assassin in the center
20120904 16:54:45< skyfaller> erm, kill=leave
20120904 16:54:50< mattsc> :)
20120904 16:55:27< mattsc> Yep, that's something I know is part of the calculation (although it's about overall HP, not whether the unit has poison or something; but that can be added)
20120904 16:55:56< mattsc> Ok, thanks, I have enough to go by for now.
20120904 16:55:58< skyfaller> ok
20120904 16:56:23< skyfaller> yeah, I would definitely take poison into account when possible
20120904 16:56:31< skyfaller> in this matchup Fred should really be spamming trolls
20120904 16:56:44< skyfaller> b/c those you can allow poisoning without breaking a sweat
20120904 16:56:50< mattsc> Just as XP etc ...
20120904 16:57:10< skyfaller> everything else has to retreat and heal, taking them out of the battle for many turns
20120904 16:57:46< mattsc> Ok.  Maybe Alarantalara can add this to his recruiting mods
20120904 16:57:57< skyfaller> when something has to get poisoned, and you don't have any units like trolls with regeneration, you want to let fast units get poisoned first
20120904 16:58:08< skyfaller> because those can reach a village to heal faster, and get back to the front faster once healed
20120904 17:00:02< skyfaller> you can see me rotating poisoned cavalry in my battles in the east on Freelands, it's highly effective
20120904 17:00:35< skyfaller> and it's the best you can do if you don't have regeneration or healers :P
20120904 17:08:14< skyfaller> mattsc: you know what, I'm not sure I would have put the grunt next to the mountain when an enemy could reach it
20120904 17:08:25< skyfaller> it's a little like standing next to an empty village
20120904 17:09:07< skyfaller> it's giving the enemy good terrain to attack you from. (villages are usually the best terrain)
20120904 17:09:24< mattsc> skyfaller: True.  Well, I already know that the "go pillaging" action in the west needs some work.
20120904 17:19:02< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r15871 /trunk/NX-RPG/lua/gui/item_pickup.lua: NX: some stylistic cleanup
20120904 17:37:14-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20120904 17:43:41< skyfaller> look at all of our commits yesterday! I'm proud of us
20120904 17:50:31< skyfaller> mattsc: do we have the ability to measure the distance to the keep for a village? I see a lot of the time we measure how far north or south a village is, which is an ok first approximation, but it's not measuring exactly what you want to measure. You want to know distance from friendly keep and distance from enemy keep
20120904 17:51:24< mattsc> Yep.  I'm already working on that.  :)
20120904 17:51:29< skyfaller> oh, good
20120904 17:51:39< mattsc> Actually, I was going to make it distance from leader, which is much easier to do.
20120904 17:51:45< skyfaller> I see
20120904 17:52:07< skyfaller> the thing I'm not sure about is how to combine distance from enemy leader and distance from friendly leader
20120904 17:52:10< skyfaller> both are relevant
20120904 17:52:10< mattsc> Otherwise you have to decide which keep is friendly and which is not.  I guess I could use the keep closest to the leader...
20120904 17:52:28< skyfaller> yeah, I think keep closest to the leader would be best
20120904 17:52:42< mattsc> ok.
20120904 17:52:50< skyfaller> especially on maps with large keeps
20120904 17:53:00< skyfaller> and the leader doesn't recruit on top of himself anyway :P
20120904 17:53:41< skyfaller> also, all of this north/south stuff would get screwed up once we play Freelands side 2 :P
20120904 17:54:09< mattsc> Hold on, do you mean keep or castle?
20120904 17:54:19< skyfaller> castle
20120904 17:54:34< skyfaller> all of the castle tiles connected to the keep, which the leader could recruit from
20120904 17:54:41< mattsc> But the castle hex closest to the leader usually is the keep he's on.
20120904 17:54:50< skyfaller> ...
20120904 17:55:05< skyfaller> I'm looking at the commit "Limit villages to retreat to to those that could be reached in 4 turns"
20120904 17:55:23< skyfaller> it is using north as a way to calculate distance from the enemy
20120904 17:55:32< skyfaller> "villages in the north are preferable (since they are supposedly away from the enemy)"
20120904 17:55:48< mattsc> Anyway, for a first approximation, I was going to use simply the condition of whether a village is closer to my leader than to the enemy leader.
20120904 17:56:01< skyfaller> what you really want to calculate is distance from the enemy castle, and also distance from the friendly castle
20120904 17:56:16< mattsc> Yes, the north/south stuff is very specific to the current version of Fred.  It was an easy way to get started.
20120904 17:56:41< skyfaller> you want to be far from the enemy castle to get away from the enemy, and close to the friendly castle so you can get shields
20120904 17:56:47< mattsc> Since I didn't know if that approach was going anywhere at the time, I didn't want to spend time on developing a general method that would then end in the trash anyway.
20120904 17:57:16< mattsc> This will all get generalized once we know what actually works.  So far, we don't even have this working yet.  :)
20120904 17:57:20< skyfaller> I'd really like to measure distance to the castle rather than distance to the leader or keep
20120904 17:57:33< skyfaller> I mean, think of Arcanclave Citadel
20120904 17:57:42< skyfaller> or Thousand Stings Garrison 
20120904 17:57:50< mattsc> One step at a time...  :)
20120904 17:57:57< skyfaller> even on Freelands the castle is somewhat sizeable
20120904 17:58:10< skyfaller> let's get it right the first time
20120904 17:58:26< mattsc> Yes and no.
20120904 17:59:01< mattsc> If I can write something in 2 lines of code that is a good approximation of the right thing that would require 30 lines of code, I'm only going to do the latter if I know that it will work.
20120904 17:59:07< skyfaller> ha, fair enough
20120904 17:59:08< mattsc> In the testing phase I'll do the former.
20120904 17:59:20< skyfaller> but let's just remember that we'll have to test for the castle someday
20120904 17:59:28< mattsc> Absolutely.
20120904 17:59:53< mattsc> I'm in the process of putting together a wiki page with the village holding/grabbing strategy.
20120904 18:00:03< skyfaller> ... can we use closest keep at least? what if the leader is off healing or village grabbing, won't that mess with things?
20120904 18:00:05< mattsc> I'll send you the link for comments once I have it ready.
20120904 18:00:10< skyfaller> ok
20120904 18:00:40< mattsc> It's still a minor difference compared to distance to the other leader.
20120904 18:01:12< skyfaller> I'm just not sure it's better than north/south, except that it is generalizable for when we're not in the north
20120904 18:01:50< skyfaller> closest keep is better, closest castle would be ideal
20120904 18:02:03< mattsc> yeah - but I am sure that this is not the main problem of the village grabbing CA at the moment.
20120904 18:02:08< skyfaller> hahaha
20120904 18:02:09< skyfaller> fair enough
20120904 18:02:47< mattsc> So let me do distance to leader first, generalizing it in the follow-up commit is easy.
20120904 18:02:52< skyfaller> k
20120904 18:02:59< mattsc> I just want to make sure that it works at all.
20120904 18:03:06< skyfaller> ok
20120904 18:15:18< CIA-59> Wesnoth-AI-Demos: Nelson Pavlosky master * r56b8504 / README.md : we hang out in #wesnoth-umc-dev - http://git.io/mHeLPQ
20120904 18:16:51< CIA-59> Wesnoth-AI-Demos: Nelson Pavlosky master * r48225ff / README.md : direct link to IRC channel - http://git.io/GR-kMA
20120904 18:18:07< skyfaller> bleh, is there no way to revert a change through the github interface? That's a little annoying, it would be nice to be able to roll back a change like in Mediawiki
20120904 18:18:56< CIA-59> Wesnoth-AI-Demos: Nelson Pavlosky master * r52429bd / README.md : took out direct link again, it didn't linkify - http://git.io/0smZuA
20120904 18:21:14< mattsc> skyfaller: https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos/wiki/Village-holding-strategy
20120904 18:21:26< mattsc> Let me know what you think of that.
20120904 18:21:33< mattsc> I'll have to do some work now.  :)
20120904 18:22:26< skyfaller> how about -1 if the unit is a troll (or other unit with regeneration)?
20120904 18:23:02< skyfaller> we would prefer to let other units heal in the village, trolls don't need villages to heal
20120904 18:23:07< mattsc> Good idea.  That's easy. 
20120904 18:23:17< skyfaller> trolls often get better defense outside of villages anyway, on hills and mountains
20120904 18:23:43< mattsc>  Just add whatever you think should be to the wiki page, and I'll use it as a template for the coding later today.
20120904 18:23:45< skyfaller> maybe even -2, I don't have a good sense of how powerful these values are
20120904 18:23:50< skyfaller> k
20120904 18:24:31< mattsc> Actually, what I have there so far is about 5 min of coding (since almost all of it is there already), so I can do that even in a coffee break.  :)
20120904 18:24:53< mattsc> Just wondering if you want to introduce anything more advanced at this time.
20120904 18:24:53< skyfaller> I guess I'm not sure about putting strong units on a village
20120904 18:25:07< mattsc> As you can see, neither am I.
20120904 18:25:12< skyfaller> if Fred is forming a defensive line, the village may not be the weak point
20120904 18:25:54< skyfaller> say for example he is defending the front village in the west, and puts a unit on either side of the village, one on the mushroom grove and one on the opposite side
20120904 18:26:01< mattsc> True, but that only affects one or two villages on a map.  The rest of them will be more isolated.
20120904 18:26:16< vultraz> does lua have a [switch] equiv?
20120904 18:26:30< mattsc> No, but that's easy to do with ifs.
20120904 18:26:31< skyfaller> now the village can only be hit from 2 hexes, it's not the weak point, you can put a weak, injured unit there, since even if it dies the enemy can't take the village (without skirmishers or killing another unit as well)
20120904 18:26:44-!- ancestral [~ancestral@173-160-116-106-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20120904 18:26:53< mattsc> vultraz: Oops, I thought that was skyfaller :)
20120904 18:27:03< vultraz> hehe
20120904 18:27:16< mattsc> vultraz: but as far as I know, thee's no 'switch' in lua
20120904 18:27:45< mattsc> skyfaller: Now write this in pseudo-code please.
20120904 18:27:52< skyfaller> in such a situation, I would put the strong unit in the weak point of the line, i.e. the most crucial point, or the point threatened by the most units/damage
20120904 18:28:04< skyfaller> hm...
20120904 18:28:23< vultraz> mk, if/elseif it is then
20120904 18:28:26< skyfaller> we don't want to lose a village, but we also want to use villages to heal
20120904 18:28:58< skyfaller> and give good defense
20120904 18:29:09< skyfaller> putting a strong unit on a village and letting an injured/weak unit die is suboptimal, if the strong unit would survive without the defense/healing
20120904 18:30:01< skyfaller> mattsc: how does Fred form defensive lines these days?
20120904 18:30:44< mattsc> skyfaller: he does not
20120904 18:31:06< mattsc> not as such, at least
20120904 18:31:08< skyfaller> BS, what do you call his silly defensive lines on the castle in the east when he pseudo-retreats?
20120904 18:31:22< mattsc> Retreating to strong terrain
20120904 18:31:25< mattsc> :)
20120904 18:31:28< skyfaller> heh
20120904 18:31:34< skyfaller> yeah, I guess he doesn't take into account ZOC
20120904 18:31:37< mattsc> Anyways, here's a way that might work:
20120904 18:31:57< skyfaller> or minimizing the damage that can reach injured/weak units
20120904 18:32:02< mattsc> Defensive lines, retreats etc. are handled by other CAs (not village grabbing)
20120904 18:32:23< skyfaller> but you can't grab a village in isolation if serious enemy forces are in range
20120904 18:32:26< skyfaller> that's too naive
20120904 18:32:38< mattsc> So, if a village is part of an area where a this will happen, return score for it is low (so that it happens after)
20120904 18:33:15< skyfaller> and if only one or two enemies are in range, it doesn't matter if you put a weak unit in the village so long as it still has good chances of surviving (not the case if you're facing e.g. a mage and a horseman)
20120904 18:33:17< mattsc> The "retreating to strong terrains" part takes care of grabbing villages in that area (it dos already)
20120904 18:34:45< skyfaller> ooh, I also don't like "More than 1000: unowned and enemy-owned villages, with a higher rating for those also threatened by an enemy "
20120904 18:35:08< skyfaller> I would prefer villages that are furthest from the enemy castle, b/c those will be easiest to hold
20120904 18:35:30< skyfaller> hm...
20120904 18:35:37< skyfaller> maybe you should take both into consideration
20120904 18:35:42< skyfaller> bleh
20120904 18:36:05< mattsc> :D
20120904 18:37:23< skyfaller> generally, being threatened by an enemy is important, but if I'm pillaging, I might prefer to take the more distant village precisely *because* the enemy can't reach it, b/c my stealer isn't threatened then
20120904 18:37:43< skyfaller> I'm not sure how to balance those considerations
20120904 18:38:07< mattsc> Yep.  Do you notice how often you use 'if' in all those considerations.  :)
20120904 18:38:26< mattsc> Here's a possibility though:
20120904 18:38:52< mattsc> Villages close to my keep than to the enemy keep: prefer threatened villages.  Far villages: prefer untrheatened ones.
20120904 18:39:01< mattsc> Not perfect, but might be a start.
20120904 18:39:05< skyfaller> that might be the simplest, yeah
20120904 18:39:53< skyfaller> ... but when facing a full assault it may be better to pull back until you can form a strong defensive line, and let the enemy have the far village for a turn or two :/
20120904 18:40:20< skyfaller> of course, Fred doesn't even pull back to his villages at this point
20120904 18:40:27< skyfaller> he only pulls back to good terrain
20120904 18:40:32< mattsc> Not yet
20120904 18:40:36< mattsc> Anyway, I really have to work now (I'll stay logged in though).  If you could add your thoughts to the wiki page, I'll go through it later today.
20120904 18:40:42< skyfaller> so forming a line at the first village would be an improvement :P
20120904 18:40:59< skyfaller> ok, I'll see what I can do
20120904 18:41:18< skyfaller> sometimes getting your thoughts down in an organized fashion is really hard >.<
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20120904 19:26:40< CIA-59> Wesnoth-AI-Demos: mattsc master * reebb8e1 / (lua/ai_helper.lua lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua): Added function ai_helper.get_closest_location() - http://git.io/2sm_Zw
20120904 19:27:58< mattsc> skyfaller: ^  Now finding the closest keep or castle or whatever is a one-line thing.
20120904 19:28:18< skyfaller> hooray!
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20120904 19:29:03< skyfaller> I broke my brain trying to figure out how to improve what you have on the wiki page, so I'm practicing guitar now instead :P
20120904 19:29:30< skyfaller> I think the next thing I will do is make bug reports with tests for ABCDE, that's relatively straightforward if time-consuming
20120904 19:30:16< mattsc> sounds good
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20120904 20:11:06< vultraz> mattsc: so I take it you're the resident lua wiz?
20120904 20:12:32< vultraz> YES!!!
20120904 20:12:47 * vultraz hurries to commit
20120904 20:14:34< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r15872 /trunk/NX-RPG/lua/gui/inventory.lua: NX: prevented dialog from closing when buttons are clicked. I might be able to expand the functionality to get the listboxes to refresh
20120904 20:14:54< vultraz> well this is genuinely weird...
20120904 20:17:27< vultraz> hmmm
20120904 20:17:44< vultraz> ok I think for that last commit to work fully I need to push some code around
20120904 20:18:13< CIA-59> Wesnoth-AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r80a7d15 / lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua : Revert "Do not start attacking with night rush until at least two units can attack" - http://git.io/C4uZrg
20120904 20:18:44< skyfaller> Alarantalara: why did you revert that?
20120904 20:19:55< Alarantalara> It tries to attack one unit at a time. So, if it tries to attack with a single unit first, then there is no simple test that can check if another unit will help
20120904 20:20:27< skyfaller> oh :(
20120904 20:20:40< Alarantalara> I have to look for already moved units nearby + allied units that might come and attack another nearby unit (since they aren't going after the chosen target)
20120904 20:21:02< skyfaller> ok
20120904 20:22:49< skyfaller> when the reason for a commit is not self-explanatory, do you think you could talk about it in the extended commit message?
20120904 20:22:54< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r15873 /trunk/NX-RPG/lua/gui/inventory.lua: NX: forgot to set the item's active switch in WML if it's already in use
20120904 20:30:26< vultraz> Alarantalara: BTW whatever happened to Cataclysm?
20120904 20:30:59< Alarantalara> I got distracted by UtBS
20120904 20:31:38< vultraz> ah
20120904 20:33:12< Alarantalara> Also it appears that I have made a bunch of changes without committing
20120904 20:34:30< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: alarantalara * r15874 /trunk/Cataclysm/units/Allonna.cfg: A new AMLA for Allonna
20120904 20:35:15< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: alarantalara * r15875 /trunk/Cataclysm/scenarios/05_Loyalty.cfg: Small change to scenario 5
20120904 20:35:57< vultraz> huh...it appears the dialog will close after the second click
20120904 20:37:26< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: alarantalara * r15876 /trunk/Cataclysm/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Make animation routine fancier
20120904 20:38:43< vultraz> ok this solution freezes wesnoth...hm
20120904 20:38:59< vultraz> ah wait that's why the first one didn't work
20120904 20:39:16< vultraz> it doesn't run through the whole function over
20120904 20:39:22< vultraz> only prestart
20120904 20:39:46< vultraz> meaning return_value doesn't get regenerated
20120904 20:40:05< Alarantalara> skyfaller: the revert didn't give me an opportunity to add anything to the extended message
20120904 20:40:30< skyfaller> hm, really? It's no big deal
20120904 20:43:10< vultraz> 	local function sync()
20120904 20:43:11< vultraz> 		local return_value = wesnoth.show_dialog( main_window, inventory_preshow, nil )
20120904 20:43:13< vultraz> 		return { return_value = return_value }
20120904 20:43:14< vultraz> 	end
20120904 20:43:17< vultraz> 	local return_table = wesnoth.synchronize_choice(sync)
20120904 20:43:20< vultraz> I never knew what that was for
20120904 20:43:29< vultraz> I got it from the WLP
20120904 20:43:50< vultraz> Alarantalara: who maintains that?
20120904 20:44:15< Alarantalara> Anonymissimus for the most part
20120904 20:44:27< vultraz> hm
20120904 20:44:55< vultraz> trying to figure out if there's a way to get return_table without going through all that
20120904 20:47:19< mattsc> Alarantalara, skyfaller: just to confirm we're on the same page: rush_right attacks one enemy unit at a time (per call to the exec()), but that may (or may not) be with several AI units.
20120904 20:48:14< skyfaller> is there a reason you bring this up?
20120904 20:48:32< mattsc> vultraz: I'd not call myself a lua wiz, I've just used it quite a bit lately and have learned a few tricks.
20120904 20:48:39< Alarantalara> That's my interpretation. With the addition that if no attack is made, then all remaining units on the right move instead of attack.
20120904 20:48:54< mattsc> People like anonymissimus, Elvish_Hunter, Crab and the like are probably much better than I.
20120904 20:49:07< mattsc> And many others, those are just examples.
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20120904 20:49:29< mattsc> Alarantalara: exactly
20120904 20:49:51< mattsc> skyfaller: to explain the reason for the problem with Alarantalara's commit that he reverted.
20120904 20:50:00< skyfaller> oh, I see
20120904 20:52:46< mattsc> That was the point I was trying to make last night, but I didn't explain it well enough, so Alarantalara and I didn't understand each other.  :)
20120904 20:54:00< skyfaller> Fred is performing pretty well against over-resourced RCA AI these days, guys. I just watched Fred annihilate a 150 +2 Loyalist RCA. Of course, he was slightly lucky, but it's still impressive. Fred managed to poison and trap the leader outside his keep.
20120904 20:54:27< skyfaller> I'm sure the trapping wasn't intentional :P
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20120904 20:56:30< mattsc> Leader attacking and trapping is pretty easy to implement with the functionality at hand.
20120904 20:57:05< mattsc> Maybe I should do that as something that's doable, I just figured I try to get the basics right first...
20120904 20:57:29< skyfaller> it would certainly help against noobs and AIs
20120904 20:57:37< skyfaller> and might even surprise a pro :)
20120904 20:59:31< mattsc> The problem with the latter is that Fred never even gets close to the enemy leader.
20120904 20:59:43< Alarantalara> Oh, I found a bad interaction between pinning and pillaging
20120904 20:59:54< Alarantalara> An enemy unit approaches the left, is pinned
20120904 21:00:07< skyfaller> well, a cocky pro might send his entire army to one side of the map and count on his leader to hold down the other side of the map b/c he is smarter than the AI
20120904 21:00:16< skyfaller> and then surprise!
20120904 21:00:17< Alarantalara> Next turn, the pinned unit cannot reach the village, so the wolf goes pillaging and the unit is freed to continue attacking the village
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20120904 21:00:42< mattsc> Alarantalara: not good!
20120904 21:00:49< mattsc> I'll look into that.
20120904 21:01:18< mattsc> skyfaller: ok.  Let me do the village priority thing first, then I'll add a attack/trap_enemy_leader CA.
20120904 21:01:42< mattsc> I'll be off for a while now.  Bye.
20120904 21:02:01< Alarantalara> mattsc: it may be enough to remove the unit that is considering pillaging from the map before seeing if it is safe
20120904 21:02:25< mattsc> Alarantalara: ok.  I'll check it out.  Thanks.
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20120904 21:20:11< CIA-59> Wesnoth-AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r6c14d4e / lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua : Retreat trolls to mountains instead of villages - http://git.io/dIuOZw
20120904 21:20:50< vultraz> ok that didn't work...
20120904 21:31:34< skyfaller> Alarantalara: I'm having some trouble reading the code in your latest commit, could you talk it through with me?
20120904 21:32:20< skyfaller> where is min_hp defined now? I guess it's in function grunt_rush_FLS1:retreat_injured_units_eval() ?
20120904 21:32:28< Alarantalara> I've changed the old eval function to take three parameters: a unit filter, a terrain type filter, and a minimum hp
20120904 21:33:34< Alarantalara> It is then called by the new eval function, that first tries non-troll units with the old village and min_hp, then tries troll units with mountains and a slightly higher min_hp because they have generally low terrain defense
20120904 21:33:58< Alarantalara> (also, because they regenerate, <12 meant they had to go to 1-3 hp on the enemy's turn)
20120904 21:35:35< skyfaller> I don't understand your last statement. 1-3 hp?
20120904 21:36:05< Alarantalara> The CA checks to see if the unit has <12 hp on its turn
20120904 21:36:46< Alarantalara> Because trolls regenerate at the start of a turn, that only happens if it was poisoned or it was reduced to 3 or fewer hp on the enemy's previous turn
20120904 21:37:34< skyfaller> ah, I see. So we are checking the HP at the start of our turn.
20120904 21:38:13< Alarantalara> after the start, we may have already done something by the time we check
20120904 21:38:30< skyfaller> hm, I see
20120904 21:38:55< skyfaller> it's good to retreat trolls before they die, regenerating troll HP is the gift that keeps on giving if you can keep them alive :)
20120904 21:39:35< Alarantalara> They retreated before, just not as often and to villages
20120904 21:39:47< skyfaller> ok :)
20120904 21:45:48< skyfaller> Alarantalara: what is *^V* and M*^* ? I assume they are special codes for "village" and "mountain"? Are these special codes listed somewhere?
20120904 21:46:35< Alarantalara> They're not listed explicitly anywhere
20120904 21:46:56< Alarantalara> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/TerrainCodesWML
20120904 21:47:59< Alarantalara> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/FilterWML#Filtering_Terrains
20120904 21:48:35< Alarantalara> You can use the information from those two to assemble the appropriate strings
20120904 21:48:57< skyfaller> hm, I sort of understand but not really. Could you talk me through exactly what *^V* and M*^* means?
20120904 21:49:20< Alarantalara> *^V*has two parts: * and ^V*
20120904 21:49:35< Alarantalara> * means match any base terrain string (like Gg for grass)
20120904 21:49:59< Alarantalara> ^V* means that there must be an overlay whose terrain code starts with V
20120904 21:50:21< Alarantalara> since in mainline, only villages have terrain codes starting with V, that matches all villages
20120904 21:50:51< Alarantalara> M* means match all base terrains starting with M
20120904 21:51:28< Alarantalara> ^* means we don't care what or if an overlay is present (like a village (very unlikely in multiplayer), or impassable, or some decoration)
20120904 21:51:56< skyfaller> well, there are definitely some mountain villages in multiplayer
20120904 21:52:39< Alarantalara> I thought they were mostly eliminated due to the dwarf on mountain village problem
20120904 21:52:48< skyfaller> there are some on Sulla's Ruins
20120904 21:53:25< skyfaller> and I seem to remember a 4p map that had them, I fought on it in a tournament
20120904 21:54:08< skyfaller> they have been mostly eliminated, but there still are some, so I would eliminate mountain villages if you can
20120904 21:54:27< skyfaller> I mean, exclude them, you know what I mean
20120904 21:54:44< Alarantalara> why? They're perfectly good places for trolls to go, and other injured units get first claim
20120904 21:55:28< skyfaller> well, the only thing is that, when possible, you prefer to let a healing unit sit for a while, so they get the +2 resting bonus
20120904 21:56:17< skyfaller> so it would be better to let the troll sit on a hill or a different mountain for a while, rather than occupying the village and having to move when an injured unit comes in
20120904 21:56:41< Alarantalara> Let's keep that in mind for the future, then. Right now, the odds are very good that the troll would go back and attack after one turn of healing
20120904 21:57:14< Alarantalara> There's no provision for trying to heal for multiple turns at the moment
20120904 21:57:30< skyfaller> oh :/
20120904 21:59:14< skyfaller> well, could you tell me the string you would use to find mountains with any overlay *except* a village?
20120904 21:59:22< CIA-59> Wesnoth-AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * rbb3f5ce / lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua : Exclude impassible terrain from the troll terrain filter to speed evaluation - http://git.io/dRXo8g
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20120904 21:59:56< Alarantalara> !,M*^V*,!,M*^*
20120904 22:00:13< skyfaller> mattsc: welcome back! we were just discussing terrain filtering and retreating trolls
20120904 22:00:49< mattsc> Just checking the logs
20120904 22:00:52< skyfaller> Alarantalara: I feel like I'm reading Brainfuck here. Could you decode that string for me too? :/
20120904 22:01:40< Alarantalara> ! -> a match now makes the filter fail
20120904 22:01:58< Alarantalara> M*^V* any mountain with any village
20120904 22:02:04< Alarantalara> ! switch back to passing
20120904 22:02:16< Alarantalara> M*^* any mountain
20120904 22:02:26< skyfaller> when do you need to use commas?
20120904 22:02:36< Alarantalara> between every piece
20120904 22:03:08< Alarantalara> It's actually a list of terrains, with a special non-terrain "!" that changes the meaning of the next part of the list
20120904 22:03:22< skyfaller> ah, intriguing
20120904 22:03:50< skyfaller> there is so much to learn! I was hoping to be contributing code by now, but simply understanding each commit is a lot of work
20120904 22:04:35< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r15877 /trunk/Kromire/scenarios/01_The_Therian_Village.cfg: K: fixed an event filter.
20120904 22:05:46< Alarantalara> I got a lot of practice with terrain filters when I was working on the terrain graphics WML
20120904 22:08:03< Alarantalara> Here's a moderately interesting one from terrain-graphics.cfg "!,Ket,Co*,!,C*,Ke*"
20120904 22:09:04< skyfaller> what on earth does that mean? "t" doesn't even have a meaning in http://wiki.wesnoth.org/TerrainCodesWML
20120904 22:09:07< Alarantalara> Between what I've told you, the links above, and this: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/TerrainCodeTableWML you should be able to figure out what it means
20120904 22:09:33< skyfaller> ah, thanks
20120904 22:09:39< vultraz> Alarantalara: so ! means not?
20120904 22:09:47< Alarantalara> almost
20120904 22:09:58< skyfaller> vultraz: yes, but you have to say it again when you're done saying "not"
20120904 22:10:14< vultraz> oh
20120904 22:10:43< skyfaller> it's more like ¡Ya basta!
20120904 22:11:29< skyfaller> everything between the ! and ! causes the filter to fail
20120904 22:11:49< shadowm> I prefer to see it as inverting the filter.
20120904 22:12:20< Alarantalara> t has a bunch of meanings. Often as the second character it means "template/archetype", indicating that it is not drawn but provides the rules for movement for many terrains.
20120904 22:13:01< Alarantalara> It can also mean "tropical", "tall" and "tent"
20120904 22:13:10< CIA-59> Wesnoth-AI-Demos: mattsc master * r1ce8b95 / lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua : Added a flag to grab_villages() whether a village is "close" - http://git.io/dm0i_g
20120904 22:13:30 * vultraz goes and wonders if he can simplify "Xu,Xos,U*,Qxu,Urb,Uue,Uu^V**,*^Uf,Cud,Kud,*^Ngl*"
20120904 22:14:08< Alarantalara> You can drop Urb,Uue since U* will match those and you already have it
20120904 22:14:08< shadowm> vultraz: Why do you have a double wildcard there?
20120904 22:14:48< vultraz> shadowm: Oh, I thought 1 wildcard = 1 character
20120904 22:15:03< shadowm> No, and that'd not be the right wildcard if this were shell globbing.
20120904 22:15:28< skyfaller> Alarantalara: OK, I'm reading it as saying filter out "tall encampment keep" and "orcish castle", and look for any other castle or "encampment keep"
20120904 22:15:50< Alarantalara> Exactly
20120904 22:18:50< Alarantalara> vultraz: are you trying to match everything that could be underground?
20120904 22:19:03< vultraz> basically
20120904 22:20:15< Alarantalara> Then why not X*^*,U*^*,Q*^*,*^Uf*,Cud,Kud
20120904 22:20:31< Alarantalara> And whatever *^Ng is
20120904 22:21:03< Alarantalara> It cacthes all decoration and lava, which your current version does not
20120904 22:21:12< Alarantalara> *catches
20120904 22:21:36< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r15878 /trunk/Kromire/scenarios/01_The_Therian_Village.cfg: K: fixed an event.
20120904 22:23:40< vultraz> Alarantalara: thanks, that works exactly :D
20120904 22:25:24< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r15879 /trunk/NX-RPG/episode1/scenarios/03_Fleeing_the_Swarm.cfg: NX: simplified an SLF (thanks to Alarantalara)
20120904 22:25:25< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r15880 /trunk/Kromire/ (4 files in 2 dirs): K: fixed a bunch of spelling errors.
20120904 22:30:52< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r15881 /trunk/Era_of_Myths/units/ (celestials.cfg therians.cfg): EoM: fixed some capitalization.
20120904 22:32:44< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r15882 /trunk/NX-RPG/episode1/scenarios/01_Awakening.cfg: NX: used [switch] instead of [if][else][if]
20120904 22:34:01< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r15883 /trunk/NX-RPG/episode1/scenarios/01_Awakening.cfg: NX: removed some commented-out code
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20120904 22:35:36< skyfaller_> hm, rainstorm knocked out my power for a few seconds
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20120904 22:38:23< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r15884 /trunk/NX-RPG/ (4 files in 2 dirs): NX: appended 'CHARACTER_STATS:' to all character stats macros
20120904 22:40:08< CIA-59> Wesnoth-AI-Demos: mattsc master * r9bfab75 / lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua : Changes to village grabbing priorities - http://git.io/PZR_mw
20120904 22:40:14< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r15885 /trunk/Kromire/utils/storytxt.cfg: K: another spelling fix...
20120904 22:40:18< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r15886 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/character_defines.cfg: NX: mistyped some stuff
20120904 22:41:24< mattsc> skyfaller, Alarantalara: The commit above implements the changes on the wiki, plus a couple extra things we talked about earlier.
20120904 22:41:43< mattsc> A quick test shows that this isn't good enough though, Fred does some pretty stupid things with that.
20120904 22:41:48< skyfaller> :(
20120904 22:41:51< skyfaller> like what?
20120904 22:42:04< mattsc> Don't be sad.  It's better, just not done yet.
20120904 22:42:12< mattsc> Like completely ignoring villages at night.
20120904 22:42:14< skyfaller> :)
20120904 22:42:21< skyfaller> hahaha, not so good
20120904 22:42:36< mattsc> I don't have time for more right now, will get back to it tonight (probably).
20120904 22:42:41< skyfaller> ok
20120904 22:43:00< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r15887 /trunk/NX-RPG/episode1/scenarios/01_Awakening.cfg: NX: use {CHARACTER_STATS} macros in [check_for_character]
20120904 22:43:44< mattsc> So if you want to test it and figure out specifically what's good and bad, feel free to do so, but you can also leave that to me.  Just don't expect it to be all working yet.
20120904 22:44:00< skyfaller> ok, I won't test it right away, maybe later tonight ;-)
20120904 22:51:01< mattsc> Btw, I haven't had time to update the wiki yet.  So what I coded is not exactly what's on there, but rather a hybrid between that and what we talked about.
20120904 22:55:02< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r15888 /trunk/Kromire/ (6 files in 2 dirs): K: added a bunch of spelling exceptions.
20120904 22:58:14< CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r15889 /trunk/Kromire/_main.cfg: K: ran wmlindent.
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--- Log closed Wed Sep 05 00:00:23 2012