--- Log opened Wed Sep 12 00:00:17 2012
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20120912 01:20:07< mattsc> Hi Alarantalara.  Did you see my discussion with Crab on having the AI choose the advancement type of a unit?
20120912 01:20:55< Alarantalara> Yes
20120912 01:22:57< Alarantalara> You may have noticed that I started a branch for my crazier recruiting scheme. About all it is right now is an approximation of simulate combat without regard to actual health.
20120912 01:23:52< mattsc> Yeah, I saw that.  Looks interesting, but I haven't had time to pay real attention to it yet.
20120912 01:24:34< mattsc> Fir now, I just wanted to point you to what Crab said in case you hadn't seen it (before I forget)
20120912 01:28:33< mattsc> Oh... and I wanted to ask whether you think you've made enough changes that we should release a new version.  (I think what I've been doing kind of messed up the left/center/right behavior until I can make more progress on it, so that should probably be reverted in that case.)
20120912 01:28:48< Alarantalara> Got it. So I should try out setting recruits before attacks?
20120912 01:29:21< Alarantalara> There isn't that much. Some slight improvements to poisoning and recruiting.
20120912 01:29:29< mattsc> Well, if you think that's the next thing to do, you could try it.
20120912 01:29:31< Alarantalara> I'd be happy waiting.
20120912 01:30:08< Alarantalara> I want to try working on the new recruiting scheme that takes into account time of day and more of the battlefield state.
20120912 01:30:12< mattsc> Let's wait then.  It'll be slow progress from my side for a while, I just don't have much time at the moment.
20120912 01:30:36< Alarantalara> I was rather inspired by skyfaller recruiting Naga and Trolls as he started getting overwhelmed.
20120912 01:30:48< mattsc> ... and to be honest, I don't really know how to code a good retreat behavior yet ...
20120912 01:31:08< mattsc> sounds good to me
20120912 01:32:45< mattsc> What I mean with that is: I don't know how to code where and how to set up a good defensive line (the decision when to retreat is comparatively easy)
20120912 01:33:38< Alarantalara> I noticed that skyfaller tended to set up lines at villages and at the same good terrain Fred already goes to on the right
20120912 01:34:10< Alarantalara> It may be enough for now to just hardcode a set of lines and add the desire to stay out of reach of mages during the day
20120912 01:34:28< mattsc> yeah - but he also spread out the healthy orcs in a line in front of the injured units so that they'd ZOC the enemy from getting to the latter.  That part's not so easy.
20120912 01:34:44< mattsc> I've been thinking about that (hardcoding the lines).
20120912 01:34:57< mattsc> It's at least a way to get started in seeing if it works.
20120912 01:35:34< mattsc> Having the AI decide where good lines could be built could then be the next step...
20120912 01:36:31< mattsc> Hmm, in fact, that's essentially how the Pass Defense scenario is coded
20120912 01:37:00< Alarantalara> Move strong units first on advance and last on retreat, with the weak units either moving extra fast or purposely lagging if not possible to engage the enemy
20120912 01:38:00< Alarantalara> That way you can set up lines that show how far the other units can move or where you need to be to block access
20120912 01:41:35< mattsc> Hmm, yeah, thanks.  I won't have much time for coding this week, but I'll think about that, and maybe start writing just a few lines...
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20120912 03:26:53< Alarantalara> skyfaller: Using cost, hp, and defense on flat terrain, the AI would guess the following units are the core unit for each faction: Fencer, Grunt, Footpad, Skeleton, Elvish Fighter, Drake Glider
20120912 03:31:11< Alarantalara> Without defense, it's Spearman/Merman, Troll, Wose, Skeleton, Dwarvish Fighter, Drake Fighter
20120912 03:32:41< Alarantalara> With defense and resistance to blade,pierce,impact it would likely be good for everything but drakes
20120912 03:36:39< Alarantalara> so I'll likely include base damage when trying to identify the unit as well to deal with scouts
20120912 03:40:18< Alarantalara> I'll have to check to be certain, but redoing the resistance after guessing the opponent's base unit might switch to trolls vs undead, and hopefully avoid also changing to woses
20120912 03:40:24< Alarantalara> or maybe it should
20120912 03:57:20< skyfaller> Alarantalara: hey, I just got back, let's talk
20120912 03:57:47< skyfaller> those picks for core units are very interesting
20120912 03:58:17< skyfaller> what do you mean by core unit?
20120912 03:59:43< skyfaller> I understand that to mean your primary damage dealer and/or tank, the unit that you should have lots of at any given time
20120912 04:00:38< skyfaller> Fencer is clearly the wrong choice for the core unit for Loyalists. Before the cavalry nerf, I would have argued that cavalry were the core unit
20120912 04:01:40< skyfaller> now it's probably safer to stick with Spearmen/Mermen
20120912 04:02:22< skyfaller> the core unit of Northerners is the Grunt, that's why Fred started life as a Grunt Rush AI.
20120912 04:02:52< skyfaller> However, against two factions you should switch to the Troll as the core unit: Undead AND Northerners
20120912 04:03:36< skyfaller> In a Northerner mirror match, trolls resist everything Northerners have except for archer fire, and other trolls
20120912 04:04:32< skyfaller> and assassins can really ruin your day if you don't have trolls in the front line
20120912 04:05:23< skyfaller> so keep some assassins around to poison non-troll units (and help wear down trolls that aren't dying quick enough), and spam trolls
20120912 04:06:47< skyfaller> I dunno, I can talk about core units for a long time, I guess I'll wait until you get back so you can tell me what you want to know :)
20120912 04:21:30< Alarantalara> skyfaller: That's exactly what I mean by core unit.
20120912 04:22:06< Alarantalara> Interestingly, Walking Corpses are close seconds for undead under all of the criteria given
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20120912 04:23:17< Alarantalara> I suppose the real question is what should the computer look for in a core unit, since if this Ai runs into the Khalifate, it would be useful to have it not pick Naffats or something equally out of place
20120912 04:29:01< Alarantalara> You mention dealing damage and ability to take damage, but Woses and Heavy Infantry both do a good job of claiming that they do that better than anything else in their faction
20120912 04:31:26< Alarantalara> Even including cost leaves the wose on top (as the results I wrote earlier suggest)
20120912 04:31:37< skyfaller> Alarantalara: There are two problems with those units: speed and cost
20120912 04:31:51< skyfaller> your core unit has to be relatively cheap, otherwise you won't be able to spam it
20120912 04:32:28< Alarantalara> Speed can't be too critical though, since trolls are sometimes the correct choice
20120912 04:32:55< skyfaller> well, trolls and woses can be the correct choice in certain circumstances
20120912 04:33:20< skyfaller> the problem with woses is that they are much more expensive, and they have some serious vulnerabilities that trolls don't have
20120912 04:33:45< skyfaller> if your enemy can deal serious fire damage, your woses will vanish, and you can't afford to lose them
20120912 04:33:56< skyfaller> if a troll dies, it's sad, but there's plenty more where that came from
20120912 04:35:25< skyfaller> wose spam is a valid strategy in a Loyalist mirror match, because the core Loy unit (spearman) can't hurt them
20120912 04:35:38< Alarantalara> I'm trying to compare that to skeletons, who have a similar crippling resistance (though arcane, which is less common)
20120912 04:35:52< skyfaller> and the best response (mage) costs the same amount, so if you can trade wose for mage you at least come out even
20120912 04:36:05< skyfaller> erm
20120912 04:36:22< skyfaller> I mean, Woses are a good Rebel response to Loyalists, Loys can't recruit them of course
20120912 04:36:31< Alarantalara> of course
20120912 04:36:49< skyfaller> I would actually be pretty certain that Skeletons are not the core unit of Undead
20120912 04:37:07< skyfaller> Skeleton spam will almost never win
20120912 04:37:16< skyfaller> against a competent player
20120912 04:37:20< Alarantalara> What does fill that role then? Damage is clearly Dark Adepts, but they're hardly tanks
20120912 04:37:25< skyfaller> it is DAs
20120912 04:37:39< skyfaller> and the tanks you use to shield your DAs will vary with the threat
20120912 04:38:03< skyfaller> but the core unit is DAs, you buy lots of those and then figure out how to shield them
20120912 04:38:33< skyfaller> in an early rush you can sometimes go without shields, so long as the DAs can kill more units in gold than you lose from unshielded DAs dying
20120912 04:38:44< Alarantalara> That is going to make things difficult for trying to identify units
20120912 04:39:37< skyfaller> for example, against Drakes you could just buy DAs and run that at the enemy, and it has a good chance of working on a small map
20120912 04:39:58< Alarantalara> Or should I be looking at this differently. Look for a separate damage dealer (damage/gold) and tank (hp/gold)
20120912 04:40:15< skyfaller> that may be a good plan
20120912 04:40:27< skyfaller> but that won't tell you which you should spam
20120912 04:40:42< skyfaller> the DA should be spammed in most instances, with a variety of shields
20120912 04:40:48< Alarantalara> Wouldn't it always be the damage dealer?
20120912 04:41:06< skyfaller> hm...
20120912 04:41:13< skyfaller> I guess with grunts they are both the tank and the damage dealer
20120912 04:41:13< Alarantalara> Which would also explain why grunts over trolls in most cases
20120912 04:41:32< skyfaller> but trolls should deal less damage in a Northerner mirror match
20120912 04:41:42< skyfaller> it's just that they tank so well in that matchup that you have to spam them
20120912 04:42:19< Alarantalara> Trolls have resistance to blade but not impact, they might do the same damage as grunts to other trolls
20120912 04:42:23< skyfaller> in a Northerner mirror match there is no real damage dealer, unless you count archers as a counter to troll spam
20120912 04:42:45< skyfaller> hm, you may be right
20120912 04:43:00< skyfaller> but that won't occur to the computer unless the other side starts buying trolls first
20120912 04:43:12< skyfaller> the reason you begin spamming trolls is to negate assassins
20120912 04:43:27< skyfaller> and because they can shrug off grunts except at night
20120912 04:43:50< skyfaller> at night grunts should still deal good damage to trolls, it's just they're totally ineffective at day
20120912 04:44:13< skyfaller> not just because of the resistances, but because trolls heal off the minimal daytime damage while grunts don't
20120912 04:44:28< Alarantalara> I can loop over this mess. Identify what both sides would pick, then redo the choices for both sides based on the previous choices
20120912 04:45:06< skyfaller> yeah, I think you have to keep reiterating as the game goes on and you see the enemy recruits / remaining units
20120912 04:45:12< Alarantalara> and repeat until there is no change or the same picks appear in a loop (in which case I want everything)
20120912 04:45:26< skyfaller> Wesnoth recruiting is a game of rock, paper, scissors
20120912 04:45:48< skyfaller> everything has a counter, usually both soft counters and hard counters
20120912 04:46:23< skyfaller> the hard counters usually open up some vulnerability in your own army, so it is often better to use soft counters if you can get away with it
20120912 04:46:47< skyfaller> for example, archers are the hard counter to trolls, but if you buy too many of them grunts should overwhelm you
20120912 04:46:58< skyfaller> grunts are cheaper than archers and have more HP
20120912 04:47:10< skyfaller> so you use the soft counter to trolls, which is simply more trolls
20120912 04:48:03< skyfaller> then if he tries a hard counter of archers, you use the hard counter to that which is grunts
20120912 04:48:15< skyfaller> then he can try countering that with assassins, which send your grunts packing
20120912 04:48:25< skyfaller> which you counter with trolls....
20120912 04:48:38< Alarantalara> They're not much harder than trolls though in this case. They only do 1-2 extra damage per strike to trolls (depending on strong trait)
20120912 04:49:03< skyfaller> trust me, that matters if you're trying to kill a troll in order to break through a line
20120912 04:49:30< skyfaller> but yeah, you can't just spam archers in response to trolls
20120912 04:49:52< Alarantalara> And a strong fearless troll might be a harder counter than an archer
20120912 04:50:07< skyfaller> it's like fighting Loyalists, you buy a team of 3-4 archers to take down a troll, and then you shield that team rather than buying more
20120912 04:50:29< skyfaller> but that team may become less than ideal if your opponent buys grunts in response
20120912 04:50:55< Alarantalara> Do you want separate teams for each front?
20120912 04:51:11< skyfaller> well, that depends, maybe if your opponent was literally only buying trolls
20120912 04:51:25< skyfaller> but I would only have one team which I use to break through on one side
20120912 04:51:37< skyfaller> and just have a battle of attrition on the other side
20120912 04:51:53< skyfaller> otherwise you end up with too many archers which are too easy to counter with grunts
20120912 04:52:12< skyfaller> 3 archers may already be too many if your opponent is good at rock/paper/scissors :)
20120912 04:52:36< skyfaller> it depends on whether your opponent is able to adapt to your changing strategies
20120912 04:52:51< skyfaller> if he just picks one strategy and sticks with it, you should be able to exploit that to the hilt
20120912 04:54:04< skyfaller> I dunno, I hope this made sense and wasn't stating the obvious
20120912 04:54:54< skyfaller> here's the thing, picking a strange unit like zombies to spam can actually work in your favor if it results in a strategic situation that your opponent isn't familiar with / prepared for
20120912 04:55:11< Alarantalara> The AI's vision might let counter recruiting start a turn earlier. Would this make a difference in the choice of how many of a unit to recruit
20120912 04:55:27< skyfaller> if they don't respond properly in rock/paper/scissors, your weird recruit could win you the game
20120912 04:55:54< Alarantalara> Incidentally, what is the counter to zombies? They have exceptional hp/gold
20120912 04:55:59< skyfaller> that's what they call BURS on the forums, Bizarre and Unusual Recruit strategies
20120912 04:56:34< skyfaller> anything that zombies can't easily kill without dying, i.e. strong melee units with lots of resistances / HP
20120912 04:56:48< skyfaller> for Loys cavalry or spearmen work fine
20120912 04:57:16< skyfaller> if it's serious zombie spam, I might buy an archer to get the initial hits and then finish with a melee unit
20120912 04:57:27< skyfaller> mages work fine but you can't buy enough of them to deal with zombie spam
20120912 04:57:51< skyfaller> so you get a mage + archer team, and some melee tanks to finish them and shield
20120912 04:58:21< Alarantalara> It's just that they have crazy health for gold, so they could actually make for decent tanks if you wanted to just pick DAs + corpses
20120912 04:58:45< skyfaller> with Knalgans, it's dwarves, especially dwarf fighters, zombies can't hurt them
20120912 04:59:22< skyfaller> zombies actually do work well in certain matchups
20120912 04:59:41< Alarantalara> And I have the suspicion that that's what the AI might pick if the enemy were recruiting impact units
20120912 05:00:02< skyfaller> zombies are a surprisingly good response to trolls and woses, for instance
20120912 05:00:32< skyfaller> trolls don't have resistance, so you can use zombies to finish, and if that costs you a zombie but you get a new zombie...
20120912 05:01:05< skyfaller> woses kill pretty much any undead very quickly, but if you waste a wose killing a zombie, and then DAs+ghosts come back and kill the wose, that's a terrible trade
20120912 05:01:51< skyfaller> also woses can't dodge, so even though zombies deal crap damage to woses, the damage is basically guaranteed, so you can use zombies to finish woses and get impact-resistant zombies, which you can use to kill other woses...
20120912 05:02:20< skyfaller> the thing about zombies is plague, which makes up for a lot of their shortcomings
20120912 05:02:35< skyfaller> while trolls regenerate HP by healing, zombies regenerate HP by replicating
20120912 05:02:52< skyfaller> you can form a mobile force including zombies and never reinforce it so long as you only let zombies die
20120912 05:04:07< skyfaller> the biggest problem with zombies is speed
20120912 05:04:07< Alarantalara> If I am going to go for the damage & tank recruit rather than try to identify a single unit, I'm assuming a slight bias towards damage
20120912 05:04:24< skyfaller> you cannot escape if you're relying on zombies as shields
20120912 05:04:24< Alarantalara> but I guess it might be better to look at what you do for Undead where this is always true
20120912 05:05:23< skyfaller> so your enemy will get free zombie kills every time you retreat. If your attack didn't do enough damage, you can come out behind in the attack/retreat cycle
20120912 05:05:36< Alarantalara> What proportion of the units should be shields? (Possibly in gold instead of units, since you likely need two corpses just to make up for the ZoC lack there)
20120912 05:05:40< skyfaller> and if those zombies were your shields, now you have no shields
20120912 05:06:08< skyfaller> well, the answer is that you need enough shields to keep your damage-dealers safe :P
20120912 05:06:16< skyfaller> Rebels also have this dynamic
20120912 05:06:43< skyfaller> Elvish Fighters must be spammed, not because they are good units in most matchups, but because you want them to die instead of your more fragile specialists
20120912 05:07:37< Alarantalara> The problem here is that how do you determine what "enough" equals
20120912 05:07:38< skyfaller> the number of shields required depends on the enemy numbers, the nature of their damage, etc.
20120912 05:07:55< skyfaller> for example, if your enemy spams mages, you can spam DAs and win without shields
20120912 05:09:01< skyfaller> I actually had a terrible game against Rebels where he spammed Mages (plus his Red Mage leader) and I mistakenly tried to shield my DAs
20120912 05:09:11< Alarantalara> I think starting with more typical recruits might be preferable here
20120912 05:09:22< skyfaller> the correct answer was to only spam DAs and basically nothing else
20120912 05:09:42< skyfaller> my shields got killed quickly and they didn't do retaliation
20120912 05:10:05< skyfaller> a straight-up DA vs. Mage confrontation can only end one way
20120912 05:10:51< skyfaller> starting with typical recruits is good, but my whole point is that Wesnoth is rock/paper/scissors
20120912 05:11:00< Alarantalara> So I should be looking for retaliation damage in tanks?
20120912 05:11:39< Alarantalara> At which point I can identify DAs as the tanks when the opponent has nothing but mages
20120912 05:12:01< skyfaller> well, that's kind of a special situation because a Red Mage + 2 mages can make any Undead unit disappear, but there are other similar situations
20120912 05:12:31< skyfaller> maybe I should go dig up that terrible game so that you can see my humiliation :/
20120912 05:12:49< skyfaller> it was so sad, I can't tell you how embarrassing it was
20120912 05:13:20< skyfaller> a similar situation is Ulfs
20120912 05:13:48< skyfaller> if your opponent starts buying ulfs, the correct answer often is not the unit with the most HP+resistances
20120912 05:13:58< skyfaller> it's which unit can best survive an ulfing
20120912 05:14:15< skyfaller> which is a function of how much retal they deal, in part
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20120912 05:14:52< skyfaller> So a grunt is usually a better response than a troll, unless the troll is strong+fearless and you're accepting damage at day
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20120912 05:15:40< skyfaller> I dunno, maybe I'm not answering your question
20120912 05:16:07< Alarantalara> Okay, ignoring special cases at the moment and assuming that the AI has picked a good set of damage and tanks for the current target, there's still the question of trying to identify how many of each
20120912 05:16:54< Alarantalara> Also, this lets the damage dealers swap around as the enemy vulnerabilities change, which means many counter recruits might be in this category
20120912 05:17:08<+CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r15931 /trunk/Era_of_Myths/detect.cfg: EoM: added missing #enddef...
20120912 05:17:20< skyfaller> .... this is hard
20120912 05:17:40< skyfaller> you can look at it two ways: get a team of killers, and then spam only shields until you lose some killers
20120912 05:17:55< skyfaller> or buy enough shields to form a line, then buy only killers behind that
20120912 05:18:42< skyfaller> I think this depends partly on the cost of the killers and tanks
20120912 05:18:52<+CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r15932 /trunk/Era_of_Myths/ (ChangeLog dist/VERSION): EoM: updated the changelog; bumped version to 5.12.0a.
20120912 05:19:17< Alarantalara> Does this mean we should be looking at the amount of gold devoted to each rather than numbers of units?
20120912 05:19:34< skyfaller> you should usually use the former strategy when your killers are mages/woses/horsemen, and the latter strategy when your killers are e.g. DAs
20120912 05:20:44<+CIA-59> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r15933 /tags/trunk/Era_of_Myths/5.12.0a/: Tagged version 5.12.0a of the Era of Myths
20120912 05:20:45< skyfaller> it also depends on exactly how deadly your killers are... if your enemy is very vulnerable, it's hard to justify buying anything else once you get a good shield line
20120912 05:20:52< Alarantalara> That makes it appear that the choice would be based on which is more effective at the time.
20120912 05:21:39< Alarantalara> So if I compare damage effectiveness to shield effectiveness and change priority based on which is "better", this may be a good approach?
20120912 05:21:51< skyfaller> if your enemy isn't very vulnerable, you're just hoping to get a kill, and then have enough shields to hold on to that local advantage rather than trading units
20120912 05:21:52< Alarantalara> And spam the better one
20120912 05:22:45< Alarantalara> So each turn, classify all units into tanks and killers
20120912 05:22:49< Alarantalara> Count each
20120912 05:23:20< Alarantalara> Determine if it is better to have more tanks or more killers depending on whether dealing damage is better than not taking it at the time
20120912 05:23:36< skyfaller> factor in cost somehow....
20120912 05:23:38< Alarantalara> The recruit something that falls into the appropriate category
20120912 05:24:19< skyfaller> you just have to make sure that the AI doesn't do something stupid like spam mages or horsemen
20120912 05:24:47< Alarantalara> Hopefully if it does, it will still have a line for them to hide behind
20120912 05:25:16< Alarantalara> and if it does, then it should be expecting that trading them is advantageous (which seems odd here)
20120912 05:25:18< skyfaller> the problem is that those units are so expensive, you shouldn't be able to afford enough shields to keep them safe
20120912 05:25:37< Alarantalara> spam mages and shamans against woses?
20120912 05:25:53< skyfaller> it seems like that would only work in the endgame, when you have such an income advantage that you can afford to e.g. trade horsemen for drake fighters
20120912 05:26:43< Alarantalara> presumably, cost would be a factor in identifying which was the better choice
20120912 05:26:52< skyfaller> I mean, I won't rule out any bizarre recruiting scheme, I've seen them all
20120912 05:27:14< skyfaller> my personal favorite is glider spam against northerners on large maps
20120912 05:27:22< skyfaller> I think that one is hilarious
20120912 05:28:05< Alarantalara> Ah yes, scouts...
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20120912 05:28:08< skyfaller> burn down the melee-only enemy with a cluster of gliders, then fly away. Then come back and do it again. Watch your enemy grind his teeth in frustration.
20120912 05:28:48< skyfaller> A team of gryphons can do that same thing, as long as you're careful not to lose any in the process
20120912 05:29:14< skyfaller> a gryphon force can be terrifyingly effective, but if you lose any it usually undoes all of your gains
20120912 05:29:24< Alarantalara> though I suppose they would only be village stealers for an AI
20120912 05:29:38< skyfaller> well, village stealers and fast attackers
20120912 05:30:06< skyfaller> many of the scout units can become a really deadly force in large numbers in the right circumstances
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20120912 05:30:31< skyfaller> because if your enemy doesn't respond, you can use them to hit only at good TOD, only in locations where your enemy is weak
20120912 05:30:57< skyfaller> I use scout strike forces as a response to scary leaders like the Marksman
20120912 05:31:08< Alarantalara> So movement becomes more important as the map size increases?
20120912 05:31:12< skyfaller> oh yes
20120912 05:31:26< skyfaller> most units can't survive against a Marksman, but if you can manage to strike wherever the Marksman is not...
20120912 05:31:59< skyfaller> but on a small map, it is not possible to manage that trick with scout strike forces
20120912 05:32:09< skyfaller> you use that tactic on a map where the scouts can easily switch battlefields
20120912 05:32:27< skyfaller> flying units do this really well on Weldyn Channel, for instance
20120912 05:32:37< skyfaller> but this tactic should fail miserably on e.g. Den of Onis
20120912 05:32:57< skyfaller> Den of Onis has to be my least favorite map because I prefer the strategic flexibility on larger, more open maps
20120912 05:33:14< Alarantalara> Anyway, I should get to sleep now. I'll see what I can do with this - dividing units into categories and allowing a unit to be in more than one at the same time.
20120912 05:33:25< skyfaller> ok
20120912 05:33:29< skyfaller> was this helpful?
20120912 05:33:36< Alarantalara> I think so
20120912 05:33:54< skyfaller> I tend to monologue sometimes :P
20120912 05:33:55< Alarantalara> I have something to try at least, and it looks like something that is doable and testable
20120912 05:34:03< Alarantalara> anyway, goodnight
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