--- Log opened Fri Sep 07 00:00:21 2012
--- Day changed Fri Sep 07 2012
20120907 00:00:21< Necrosporus> >  It's polite to ask first // why spend time asking? I think it's rather better to take it and then if it works maybe inform one who made initial one you taken it
20120907 00:01:01< Keegann_> yo mothers
20120907 00:01:11< elias> the assumption is that if you get a "no" as a reply, you would refrain from copying it
20120907 00:01:30< zookeeper> "It's polite to ask first // why spend time asking?" it says so right there. because it's polite to ask first.
20120907 00:01:34< zookeeper> good grief.
20120907 00:01:44< Necrosporus> But GPL itself means "yes"
20120907 00:01:54< Keegann_> nope
20120907 00:02:02-!- mode/#wesnoth [+o shadowm] by ChanServ
20120907 00:02:03-!- mode/#wesnoth [+b *!*irchon@*.dhcp.aldl.mi.charter.com] by shadowm
20120907 00:02:03-!- Keegann_ was kicked from #wesnoth by shadowm [Keegann_]
20120907 00:02:09-!- mode/#wesnoth [-o shadowm] by shadowm
20120907 00:02:19 * zookeeper blinks
20120907 00:02:24< Necrosporus> Oh, I was scared for a few seconds
20120907 00:02:24< zookeeper> who was that?
20120907 00:02:40< loonycyborg> Necrosporus: You can do everything you like, but public releases may require coordination.
20120907 00:03:07< loonycyborg> Just to avoid confusing people
20120907 00:03:23< Necrosporus> And to avoid using outdated art/code
20120907 00:03:27< loonycyborg> and interfering with original author own plans inadvertendly.
20120907 00:04:04< loonycyborg> *inadvertently
20120907 00:04:21< Necrosporus> So I guess, it must be made clear it's not about copyright stuff, but about coordination or something
20120907 00:04:43< shadowm> It's perfectly clear that isn't not a matter of legality.
20120907 00:04:58< loonycyborg> I agree.
20120907 00:05:08< shadowm> To anyone who is a native speaker or can use a dictionary, anyway.
20120907 00:05:14< Necrosporus> But it's not clear why one should ask first or something
20120907 00:05:24< shadowm> Common sense.
20120907 00:05:45< loonycyborg> Which is very uncommon though :P
20120907 00:06:06 * zookeeper gives up
20120907 00:06:09< zookeeper> if you can't read, then whatever
20120907 00:06:41< Necrosporus> I have taken image "fangs-ant.png" from UtBS to use it as attack icon for my insectoid unit, should I have found and asked initial art/campaign author first?
20120907 00:06:52< zookeeper> no
20120907 00:09:27< Necrosporus> If I'm planning to take also final boss from out there, should I ask first?
20120907 00:09:31< shadowm> It says "whole scenarios, maps, and campaigns". Dear gods.
20120907 00:09:37< Necrosporus> Though I decided to make my own instead
20120907 00:09:59< Necrosporus> >There are too many quotations to pick one for this maxim. The best way to learn how to do something is to copy it from someone else's campaign. It's polite to ask first, and most campaign designers are happy to see small bits of their WML living in other campaigns.
20120907 00:10:05< Necrosporus> Not only about whole
20120907 00:10:12< Necrosporus> Also about pieces of code too
20120907 00:10:44< shadowm> Use your common sense.
20120907 00:11:08< shadowm> Most code out there is stock crap that can be easily replicated by anyone without investing more than a couple of minutes.
20120907 00:11:52< shadowm> And the quote you just took out of context _precedes_ the latter quote.
20120907 00:12:07< Necrosporus> yeah
20120907 00:12:24< shadowm> Great then, I don't need to explain that crap any further.
20120907 00:12:40< zookeeper> no offense, but if you happen to have a asperger's or autism or something similar then i think this would be a good time to say it so we can adjust our responses accordingly, because otherwise, to us mundanes, you really seem to just be nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.
20120907 00:13:37< zookeeper> and me having to call myself a mundane in that sense is quite a stretch :>
20120907 00:15:57< Necrosporus> I didn't like this last part of tutorial in way it's written, because its rhetoric remind me one of copyright apologists
20120907 00:16:40< loonycyborg> This is not a good reason to badger people :P
20120907 00:17:08< loonycyborg> You're just overly sensitive..
20120907 00:17:11< Necrosporus> I didn't think it would be interpreted as badgering
20120907 00:17:36< Espreon> ...
20120907 00:17:38< Espreon> Sigh.
20120907 00:18:07< Necrosporus> And since it says it's polite to ask first... There's a scenario in HttT where one have to take the Sceptre of Fire
20120907 00:18:24< Necrosporus> I'm going to more or less replicate it in my campaign
20120907 00:18:51< Necrosporus> With earthshake effect, proliferating lava and stuff
20120907 00:19:12< Necrosporus> In other context though and without orcs
20120907 00:19:51< Necrosporus> But what am I planning is more or less repeating this scenario as a part of mine scenario
20120907 00:20:31< shadowm> You are not copying the whole scenario then, just making a new scenario with similar or identical mechanics.
20120907 00:20:46-!- dkkrg is now known as afkrg
20120907 00:21:11< shadowm> That's not terribly creative but it's not wrong either. For that matter, pretty much all mainline campaign scenarios reuse the stock "kill all enemy leaders" mechanics.
20120907 00:22:22< shadowm> Or more specifically, "you are in the middle/corner of a battlefield and you must kill all enemy leaders to win".
20120907 00:22:23< Necrosporus> Except this one, where one must grab the Sceptre (and I am even going to use this mechanic to make player grab an artefact which would reuse same picture, but named other way)
20120907 00:22:51< shadowm> Okay, no, that's not very good. The Sceptre of Fire is the Sceptre of Fire.
20120907 00:23:08< shadowm> There are no more objects looking exactly like the Sceptre of Fire, sceptres or otherwise.
20120907 00:23:29< shadowm> Unless you decided to have one such, which would be very cheap too.
20120907 00:23:54< Necrosporus> Maybe I will replace the pixmap later
20120907 00:24:09< Necrosporus> Or maybe name it sceptre of fire?
20120907 00:24:22< Necrosporus> or use other artefact?
20120907 00:24:26< shadowm> But yeah, that's not morally wrong but it will come across as _cheap_.
20120907 00:24:33< shadowm> That is a thing your audience will decide, not us.
20120907 00:25:06< Necrosporus> I wonder if it's possible to randomly generate only part of map, not map as whole
20120907 00:25:46< zookeeper> generate a map and then put the static parts on top of it
20120907 00:26:25< Necrosporus> The most of map is static
20120907 00:27:02< Necrosporus> I'd say I want to generate only underground half... though it may work as well
20120907 00:27:38-!- Gambit [~gambit@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 00:27:39< shadowm> You can store the randomly generated portion of the map (left as an exercise for the readers), replace it with the larger static map, and then place the stored portion on that again.
20120907 00:28:25< shadowm> For whatever reason we can replace scenario maps with larger/smaller maps at runtime, but not resize them in any other fashion AFAIK.
20120907 00:31:09< Necrosporus> Cheap or not cheap, is not the first priority. The priority is to make my scenario playable, and later if I do it, I can replace artefacts with own pixmaps gradually
20120907 00:32:19< Necrosporus> Also I'm planning to use Li'sar existing unit as a human leader
20120907 00:33:07< Necrosporus> And as there's already a sprite with her holding the Sceptre, is a plus for using sceptre instead of something other
20120907 00:34:41-!- Mortvert [Mortvert@reddit/operator/mortvert] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 00:35:01< Mortvert> I swear to god, Gambit, if you keep bringing trolls over to other channel i'll do stuff to you. :<
20120907 00:35:11< Gambit> Hm?
20120907 00:35:15< Gambit> Mortvert: What?
20120907 00:35:32< Mortvert> Exactly what i wrote, Gambit.
20120907 00:35:39< Gambit> Mortvert: What you wrote makes no sense.
20120907 00:35:45< Gambit> Keegan and you are both trolls that came here :P
20120907 00:35:52< Gambit> That makes #minecraft "the other channel"
20120907 00:36:06< Gambit> Mortvert: What trolls have come from here to #wesnoth?
20120907 00:36:09< Gambit> Err
20120907 00:36:13< Mortvert> Well, wasn't around yesteday. Also, s/troll/op
20120907 00:36:13< Gambit> *from here to #minecraft
20120907 00:36:25< Mortvert> OldCoder, perhaps?
20120907 00:36:32< Necrosporus> Trolls are good, especially rocklobber ones
20120907 00:36:33< Mortvert> If not, just ignore me, it's past midnight
20120907 00:36:40< Gambit> I suspect OldCoder is Keegan's mother
20120907 00:36:55< Gambit> She came to freenode from wherever the hell Minetest is located.
20120907 00:37:09< Gambit> Or he
20120907 00:37:10< Gambit> Or whatever
20120907 00:37:30< Mortvert> mother? wut
20120907 00:37:36< Necrosporus> Troll shamans 
20120907 00:37:39< Gambit> Mortvert: The better question is why you are here
20120907 00:37:43< Necrosporus> Mortvert, go to PM
20120907 00:37:47< Mortvert> Just because.
20120907 00:37:56< Mortvert> Necrosporus - naw, i'd rather mess with him out here.
20120907 00:38:04< Necrosporus> what you are talking about has nothing to do with Wesnoth
20120907 00:38:20< Mortvert> If you expect channels to stick around one topic - GL
20120907 00:38:49< Gambit> Necrosporus: This channel is not strict about its topic
20120907 00:39:00< Gambit> We tried that [see: #wesnoth-offtopic]  and ended up with two dead channels :(
20120907 00:39:21< Necrosporus> Yeah, but in any case, this is a private problem
20120907 00:39:23< Gambit> However, Mortvert is not a Wesnoth player to my knowledge.
20120907 00:39:29< Necrosporus> does it need public discussion?
20120907 00:39:33< Mortvert> "private"
20120907 00:39:40< Mortvert> About as private as this whole conversation is.
20120907 00:39:51< Gambit> Mortvert: This room is for Wesnoth players to hang out. So now you'll have to download Wesnoth 1.10.4 and play "GambCiv" with me ;)
20120907 00:39:59< Mortvert> I'm just messing /w Gambit
20120907 00:40:07< Mortvert> Gambit - naw.
20120907 00:40:12< shadowm> There are better places to mess with Gambit, such as ##gambot.
20120907 00:40:15< Mortvert> I bet you'd cheat.
20120907 00:40:30< Mortvert> shadowm - i carefully choosen the room based on his mask.
20120907 00:40:30< Gambit> :o
20120907 00:40:33< Gambit> shadowm and Mortvert meeting
20120907 00:40:36< Gambit> This cannot be good
20120907 00:40:45< Mortvert> Eg. just joined #wesnoth for the sake of it.
20120907 00:40:51< shadowm> Mortvert: Yeah, well, his cloak isn't very indicative of anything nowadays.
20120907 00:41:03< Gambit> So mean.
20120907 00:41:14< Mortvert> So, all he does is slack off, eh?
20120907 00:41:21< shadowm> Pretty much.
20120907 00:41:24< Mortvert> Stop placing blocks, Gambit and get to the codin'!
20120907 00:41:28< Gambit> q.q
20120907 00:41:30< Mortvert> also fu commas.
20120907 00:41:53< Mortvert> Now now Gambit.
20120907 00:41:56< Gambit> You two are like each others equivalents.
20120907 00:41:59< Mortvert> if you gonna cry do it like this
20120907 00:42:00< Mortvert> (╥﹏╥)
20120907 00:42:20 * Mortvert bullies Gambit some more
20120907 00:42:48< Gambit> Grumpy mean op people
20120907 00:42:52< Mortvert> shadowm - if you can, you probably should change Gambit's mask to wesnoth/slacker/Grickit
20120907 00:42:55< Gambit> Who are secretly fuzzy inside
20120907 00:43:17< Mortvert> Gambit - if i were fuzzy inside i wouldn't be doing this
20120907 00:43:23< Mortvert> Shame on you, young man!
20120907 00:45:07< Mortvert> Get off my la- Or wait, techically, this is your lawn.
20120907 00:45:44-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20120907 00:45:55< loonycyborg> Why do you want to mess with Gambit, anyway? Are you secretly in love in him or something?
20120907 00:45:59-!- Mousey [~r0dent_@ross154.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 00:46:01< Mousey> woohoo!
20120907 00:46:14 * Mortvert shrugs
20120907 00:46:20< Mortvert> loonycyborg - he's just fun to mess with
20120907 00:46:22< shadowm> It's a natural consequence of his infinite charisma.
20120907 00:46:34< Mortvert> shadowm - oh please.
20120907 00:46:35< shadowm> He both gets all the girls, and all the trolls.
20120907 00:46:43< Gambit> Jesus fuck.
20120907 00:46:50< Gambit> Oh wait I can say that here....
20120907 00:46:51< Mortvert> I'm the banhappy op from #minecraft
20120907 00:46:51< Gambit> RAWR
20120907 00:46:56< Gambit> Channels stop leaking into each other!?
20120907 00:46:59< Mortvert> Gettin' all the trolls
20120907 00:47:05< Mortvert> while Gambit is getting by all of them
20120907 00:48:04< Mousey> hey!
20120907 00:48:06< Mousey> i resent that 
20120907 00:48:37< vultraz> Mortvert: Gambit isn't a slacker, he's just busy with MTG
20120907 00:48:46< Mortvert> vultraz - that's slacking.
20120907 00:49:17< vultraz> what about YGO
20120907 00:49:53< shadowm> Still slacking.
20120907 00:50:17< vultraz> But they require great concentration
20120907 00:50:19< Gambit> I'm getting abused in three channels and one query... I'm just going to QUIT.
20120907 00:50:59< Mousey> wait, there's a 3rd channel?!
20120907 00:51:41< enchilado> Why is this channel turning into #minecraft?
20120907 00:52:08< vultraz> [09:46]	Gambit	Channels stop leaking into each other!?
20120907 00:52:27< Mortvert> Entropy, I'm breaking it.
20120907 00:53:15< enchilado> Mortvert: have you played Wesnoth?
20120907 00:54:35< Mousey> i <3 wesnoth!
20120907 00:55:08< hulavuta> Since when does #wesnoth have activity?
20120907 00:55:35< enchilado> #wesnoth is active quite a bit.
20120907 00:55:35< vultraz> hulavuta: since Mortvert showed up
20120907 00:56:45< hulavuta> vultraz: there was some talking earlier today too
20120907 00:57:05< vultraz> ok, then since today
20120907 00:57:31< hulavuta> I just have to say that zookeeper is my fucking hero
20120907 00:58:00< hulavuta> (I'm rereading a lot of the stuff from earlier)
20120907 00:59:04< vultraz> hulavuta: ok, your new goal is acquiring the WMl Wizard forum title
20120907 00:59:17< hulavuta> He's not my hero for that reason
20120907 00:59:22< hulavuta> although I do admire his good eye for wml
20120907 01:00:59< Mousey> people still have cats?
20120907 01:01:12-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DC69F1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20120907 01:02:20< hulavuta> Mousey: are you changing the subject or am I just missing the connection here
20120907 01:02:48< hulavuta> either way, yes some people still have cats
20120907 01:02:57< Mousey> that's just.. weird
20120907 01:03:36< hulavuta> what's so weird about it? :D
20120907 01:17:15 * Necrosporus thinks Gambit is not patient enough
20120907 01:17:32< Gambit> lol you want to bring that here?
20120907 01:21:09< Necrosporus> I just think you are not patient
20120907 01:21:51 * Necrosporus recommends Gambit to read a game tip from Wesnoth main screen
20120907 01:22:00< Necrosporus> "Patience often a key..."
20120907 01:22:46< Gambit> 09-06 19:16:39| <Necrosporus> Pedophilia is not as bad as what major corporations producing proprietary software do
20120907 01:23:02< Necrosporus> And?
20120907 01:23:15< Gambit> I have no patience for Stallman zealots who think that raping children is better than making non-GPL software.
20120907 01:23:21< Gambit> Cry me a river.
20120907 01:23:47< Necrosporus> http://falkvinge.net/2012/05/23/cynicism-redefined-why-the-copyright-lobby-loves-child-porn/
20120907 01:24:18< Necrosporus> It's what I was talking about
20120907 01:26:43< Necrosporus> I'm sure if a copyright monopolist would have to rape a thousand of children to push their proprietary crap or "fight piracy" they will do
20120907 01:27:29< Necrosporus> And it's not about "making non-GPL software"
20120907 01:27:33< Gambit> :|
20120907 01:28:02< Gambit> "They pointed out that there's a lot of child porn on ThePirateBay and so ThePirateBay was [rightly] blocked. WAAAAAAAAAH"
20120907 01:44:06< loonycyborg> Stallman just parodies crazy copyright zealots. You just don't get the joke :P
20120907 01:45:23< Gambit> The deepest application of Poe's law ever.
20120907 01:46:27-!- Mortvert [Mortvert@reddit/operator/mortvert] has quit []
20120907 01:47:18< Gambit> Darn redditors.
20120907 01:48:23-!- natasiel [~natasiel@wesnoth/mp-mod/natasiel] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20120907 01:49:40-!- TC01 [~ben@128.220.149.13] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 01:53:35-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-42-97.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 02:11:01-!- MrBeast [~foo@pD9508C30.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20120907 02:27:49-!- Mousey [~r0dent_@ross154.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20120907 02:39:52< celticminstrel> [Sep 06@2:48:06pm] Soliton: celticminstrel: unit_worth is used in the time over event of the default era.
20120907 02:39:53< celticminstrel> Oh. So it is. I missed that because it's done from Lua.
20120907 02:51:01-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-42-97.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go sleeps kthxbai]
20120907 03:01:25-!- hulavuta1 [~Justin@68.204.185.132] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 03:02:30-!- Elvish_Pillager [~eli@dhip-029.rrw.residences.colby.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20120907 03:03:15-!- hulavuta [~Justin@68.204.185.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20120907 03:12:19-!- hulavuta1 is now known as Hulavuta
20120907 03:32:19-!- Hulavuta [~Justin@68.204.185.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20120907 03:45:01-!- rossi [~rossi@HSI-KBW-046-005-091-254.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20120907 03:45:53-!- hulavuta [~Justin@68.204.185.132] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 04:25:07-!- MadMerlin2 [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 04:25:23-!- MadMerlin [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20120907 04:29:40-!- MadMerlin2 [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20120907 04:31:55-!- MadMerlin2 [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 04:38:57-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-42-97.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 04:45:10-!- MadMerlin2 [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20120907 04:51:01-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@dtmd-4db2c3c9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 04:54:32-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20120907 04:54:55-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20120907 05:02:34-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 05:19:28-!- MadMerlin3 [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 05:34:16-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit []
20120907 05:35:20-!- Gambit [~gambit@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20120907 05:58:57-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20120907 06:01:14-!- csarmi [~csarmi@apn-94-44-68-219.vodafone.hu] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 06:02:09-!- TC01 [~ben@128.220.149.13] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20120907 06:47:45-!- MadMerlin3 is now known as MadMerlin
20120907 06:54:07-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 07:00:19-!- oldtopman [~oldtopman@unaffiliated/oldtopman] has quit [Quit: *pouf*]
20120907 07:09:25-!- MadMerlin [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20120907 07:10:28-!- MadMerlin [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 07:11:02-!- [Relic] [~relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20120907 07:27:03-!- shurnormal [~driedleav@235.red-80-29-20.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 07:44:51-!- Crendgrim [~crend@77-22-112-72-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 07:48:56-!- Haldrik [~haldrik@unaffiliated/haldrik] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 07:58:21-!- MadMerlin2 [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 07:58:49-!- MadMerlin [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20120907 08:00:54-!- shurnormal [~driedleav@235.red-80-29-20.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20120907 08:14:01-!- lightbulbjim [~jim@5adb8351.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20120907 08:24:03-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!]
20120907 08:34:12-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 08:37:47-!- chimay [~chimay@152.114-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 08:37:47-!- chimay [~chimay@152.114-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Changing host]
20120907 08:37:47-!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 08:53:31-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-42-97.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ancestral]
20120907 09:03:04-!- feldo [~asaurat@AMontpellier-257-1-169-183.w86-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 09:46:39-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20120907 09:49:12-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 09:55:48-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20120907 09:58:29-!- igorko [~Instantbi@93-127-15-131.static.vega-ua.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 10:01:33-!- igorko [~Instantbi@93-127-15-131.static.vega-ua.net] has quit [Client Quit]
20120907 10:10:45-!- csarmi [~csarmi@apn-94-44-68-219.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20120907 10:14:45-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 10:28:02-!- igorko [~Instantbi@93-127-15-131.static.vega-ua.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 10:33:58-!- igorko [~Instantbi@93-127-15-131.static.vega-ua.net] has quit [Quit: Instantbird 1.2 -- http://www.instantbird.com]
20120907 10:48:50-!- igorko [~Instantbi@93-127-15-131.static.vega-ua.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 10:57:34-!- igorko [~Instantbi@93-127-15-131.static.vega-ua.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20120907 10:59:15-!- igorko [~Instantbi@93-127-15-131.static.vega-ua.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 12:19:15-!- IvanMorve [~martin@85-171-174-207.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 12:30:35-!- Elvish_Pillager [~eli@dhip-029.rrw.residences.colby.edu] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 12:42:42-!- afkrg is now known as dkkrg
20120907 13:04:09-!- mystic_x [~X@unaffiliated/mysticx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20120907 13:10:46-!- mystic_x [~X@unaffiliated/mysticx] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 13:11:49-!- MrBeast [~foo@pD9508BD6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 13:31:03-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 13:34:28-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Client Quit]
20120907 13:47:03-!- horon [~horon@nttkyo042189.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 14:22:39-!- oldtopman [~oldtopman@unaffiliated/oldtopman] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 14:54:08-!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9-rc1]
20120907 15:17:35-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl4E5CD2F5.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 15:19:18-!- igorko [~Instantbi@93-127-15-131.static.vega-ua.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20120907 15:22:46-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 16:17:18< Necrosporus> How do I make Wesnoth generate _info.cfg if it's my own addon (not downloaded one)
20120907 16:17:43< Necrosporus> I got warning config: add-on ... has no _info.cfg; cannot read version info
20120907 16:26:07-!- chimay [~chimay@152.114-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 16:26:07-!- chimay [~chimay@152.114-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Changing host]
20120907 16:26:07-!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 16:42:23-!- stock-cn [~user@vpn02.tsunagarumon.com] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 16:42:27-!- stock-cn [~user@vpn02.tsunagarumon.com] has quit [Changing host]
20120907 16:42:27-!- stock-cn [~user@unaffiliated/stock-cn] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 16:42:40-!- stock-cn [~user@unaffiliated/stock-cn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20120907 16:53:27-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 16:54:11-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5B17EFA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 17:07:45-!- blarumyrram [~uu@wesnoth/artist/blarumyrran] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 17:24:58< celticminstrel> I wonder if there's any user who really understands MetalKing's posts...
20120907 17:29:46-!- Alluton [1f071e7d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.7.30.125] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 17:30:27-!- Alluton [1f071e7d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.7.30.125] has quit [Client Quit]
20120907 17:30:58-!- kracker[BDC] [~krackerBD@unaffiliated/krackerbdc/x-5214497] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20120907 17:33:31-!- MadMerlin2 [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20120907 17:34:14-!- MadMerlin2 [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 17:35:45-!- MrBeast [~foo@pD9508BD6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20120907 17:40:07-!- kracker[BDC] [~krackerBD@unaffiliated/krackerbdc/x-5214497] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 17:41:58-!- [Relic] [~relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 17:46:22-!- feldo [~asaurat@AMontpellier-257-1-169-183.w86-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #wesnoth []
20120907 17:54:42-!- horon [~horon@nttkyo042189.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
20120907 18:00:53-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl4E5CD2F5.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20120907 18:01:05-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl4E5CD2F5.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 18:14:38-!- Mousey [~r0dent_@ross154.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 18:15:31-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20120907 18:16:56-!- r0dent [~r0dent_@ross154.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 18:19:07-!- Mousey [~r0dent_@ross154.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20120907 18:19:30-!- r0dent is now known as Mousey
20120907 18:26:02-!- shurnormal [~driedleav@235.red-80-29-20.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 18:29:40-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 18:32:48-!- IvanMorve [~martin@85-171-174-207.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: IvanMorve]
20120907 18:38:47-!- kracker[BDC] [~krackerBD@unaffiliated/krackerbdc/x-5214497] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
20120907 18:41:07-!- SirBeast [~foo@pD9508BD6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 18:56:15-!- IvanMorve [~martin@85-171-174-207.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 19:03:08-!- libreman [~libreman@host63-221-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 19:03:43-!- shurnormal [~driedleav@235.red-80-29-20.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has quit [Quit: http://driedleaves.no-ip.org]
20120907 19:11:07-!- kracker[BDC] [~krackerBD@unaffiliated/krackerbdc/x-5214497] has joined #wesnoth
--- Log opened Fri Sep 07 19:26:28 2012
20120907 19:26:38-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 19:26:38-!- Topic for #wesnoth: Wesnoth User Channel | http://www.wesnoth.org/ | Social channel: #wesnoth-offtopic | Latest stable version: 1.10.4 | Latest development version: 1.11.0 | Public IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20120907 19:26:38-!- Topic set by shadowm [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] [Sun Sep  2 00:54:26 2012]
20120907 19:26:38[Users #wesnoth]
20120907 19:26:38[ [Relic]        ] [ fabi        ] [ lobby       ] [ Rhonda       ] 
20120907 19:26:38[ Akihara        ] [ hagabaka    ] [ loonycyborg ] [ Samual       ] 
20120907 19:26:38[ apoi           ] [ Haldrik     ] [ MadMerlin2  ] [ shadowm      ] 
20120907 19:26:38[ blarumyrram    ] [ happygrue   ] [ matthiaskrgr] [ SirBeast     ] 
20120907 19:26:38[ celticminstrel ] [ hopman-     ] [ melinath    ] [ Smar         ] 
20120907 19:26:38[ chimay         ] [ hulavuta    ] [ Mousey      ] [ svenstaro    ] 
20120907 19:26:38[ Crendgrim      ] [ IvanMorve   ] [ Muad_Dibber ] [ ToBeFree     ] 
20120907 19:26:38[ crimson_penguin] [ Ivanovic    ] [ mystic_x    ] [ tswett       ] 
20120907 19:26:38[ cyphase        ] [ iwaim_      ] [ namad7      ] [ vultraz      ] 
20120907 19:26:38[ dkkrg          ] [ janebot     ] [ Narrat      ] [ wesbot       ] 
20120907 19:26:38[ elias          ] [ knotwork    ] [ Necrosporus ] [ Xjs|moonshine] 
20120907 19:26:38[ Elvish_Pillager] [ kracker[BDC]] [ negusnyul   ] [ zookeeper    ] 
20120907 19:26:38[ enchilado      ] [ libreman    ] [ noy         ] 
20120907 19:26:38[ Espreon        ] [ linduxed    ] [ oldtopman   ] 
20120907 19:26:38-!- Irssi: #wesnoth: Total of 54 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 54 normal]
20120907 19:26:38-!- Home page for #wesnoth: http://www.wesnoth.org
20120907 19:26:49-!- Channel #wesnoth created Sun Nov 26 07:42:43 2006
20120907 19:27:03-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 19:27:41-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth was synced in 71 secs
20120907 19:30:39-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20120907 19:34:31-!- lightbulbjim [~jim@5adb8351.bb.sky.com] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 19:40:36-!- kracker[BDC] [~krackerBD@unaffiliated/krackerbdc/x-5214497] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20120907 19:41:25< Espreon> Necrosporus: There's no need to.
20120907 19:44:22< Necrosporus> How to get rid of warning?
20120907 19:45:20< Espreon> Either:
20120907 19:45:31< blarumyrram> you have to produce less greenhouse gases!
20120907 19:45:32< Espreon> 1. Put a blank file called _info.pbl in your add-on
20120907 19:45:45< Espreon> 2. Put a _server.pbl in your add-on
20120907 19:45:57< Espreon> 3. Make it think you're using a VCS
20120907 19:48:49< celticminstrel> What warning?
20120907 19:49:28< Espreon> 16:17 < Necrosporus> I got warning config: add-on ... has no _info.cfg; cannot read version info
20120907 19:51:34< celticminstrel> I'd say #2 is probably the best choice, anyway...
20120907 19:53:17-!- lightbulbjim [~jim@5adb8351.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20120907 19:59:47-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl4E5CD2F5.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20120907 20:00:03-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl4E5CD2F5.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 20:02:43-!- kracker[BDC] [~krackerBD@unaffiliated/krackerbdc/x-5214497] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 20:03:23-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@dtmd-4db2c3c9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host]
20120907 20:03:23-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 20:17:21-!- libreman [~libreman@host63-221-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: libreman]
20120907 20:22:19-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 20:25:28-!- shurnor [~quassel@235.red-80-29-20.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 20:36:27-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5B17EFA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20120907 20:38:08-!- mthe878 [~mthe@94-193-44-47.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 20:38:08-!- mthe878 [~mthe@94-193-44-47.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Changing host]
20120907 20:38:08-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 20:43:17-!- shurnor [~quassel@235.red-80-29-20.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
20120907 20:50:21-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl4E5CD2F5.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
20120907 20:50:43-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl4E5CD2F5.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 20:57:23-!- pozic [~b@unaffiliated/pozic] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 20:57:52< pozic> How can I run Wesnoth on just one monitor? (I am using xrandr)
20120907 20:58:24< pozic> I did xrandr --output OTHERSCREEN --off; /usr/games/wesnoth-1.10
20120907 20:58:40< pozic> However, this results in wesnoth being displayed in a completely wrong way.
20120907 20:58:51< pozic> Other applications don't have this problem.
20120907 21:00:24< loonycyborg> DISPLAY=:0.1 ./wesnoth -f seems to work for me :P
20120907 21:01:16< loonycyborg> Though I have multiple Device sections in xorg config
20120907 21:02:20-!- Vorpal [~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 21:06:10-!- pozic [~b@unaffiliated/pozic] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20120907 21:11:17-!- SirBeast is now known as MrBeast
20120907 21:13:31-!- pozic [~b@unaffiliated/pozic] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 21:13:38< pozic> Did anyone see my question?
20120907 21:13:46< pozic> And/or answered it?
20120907 21:17:37-!- libreman [~libreman@host63-221-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 21:21:50< celticminstrel> pozic: See the link to the logs in the topic.
20120907 21:23:52-!- Octalot [~noct@host86-130-60-64.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 21:47:16< pozic> loonycyborg: that segfaults (!) for me.
20120907 21:47:50< loonycyborg> Hm.. Interesting.
20120907 21:48:03< loonycyborg> What kind of multi-monitor setup you have?
20120907 21:48:15< pozic> It appears that this bug isn't really that special.
20120907 21:48:27< pozic> There are 100+ bugs still open in this game.
20120907 21:48:35< pozic> Why do you even release it in such a bad shape?
20120907 21:48:58< pozic> Also the development version doesn't really show any confidence.
20120907 21:49:12< pozic> "It might even have more bugs."
20120907 21:49:33< pozic> I'd think that the assumption of software development is that over time _less_ bugs are left.
20120907 21:49:46-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl4E5CD2F5.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20120907 21:49:54< pozic> But you seem to be unsure of your actions?!
20120907 21:50:40< blarumyrram> I'd think that only works if no features are added over time
20120907 21:50:50< loonycyborg> New features tend to add new bugs, this is why development and release branches exist.
20120907 21:51:13< pozic> blarumyrram: in my experience bugs are a function of how well a feature is understood.
20120907 21:51:29< pozic> blarumyrram: writing software without understanding a feature is going to end in pain.
20120907 21:52:06< blarumyrram> I don't understand
20120907 21:53:16< pozic> Also, why are you adding features when you still have bugs left in the first place?
20120907 21:54:35< blarumyrram> ... I'm pretty sure firefox has had 100+ bugs open at any time since forever
20120907 21:55:06< pozic> blarumyrram: firefox is a piece of shit too.
20120907 21:55:24< loonycyborg> This line of enquiry is boring. Why not you tell about your multi-monitor setup?
20120907 21:55:26< blarumyrram> Firefox is widely used, and appreciated by a huge amount of world population
20120907 21:55:33< loonycyborg> Is it xinerama? TwinView?
20120907 21:55:47< pozic> blarumyrram: a huge percentage of the world population doesn't even know what a file is.
20120907 21:55:58< blarumyrram> pozic, yet they manage to get their stuff done!
20120907 21:56:07-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl4E5CD2F5.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 21:56:14< pozic> blarumyrram: that depends on who you ask.
20120907 21:56:41< blarumyrram> pozic, you're stupid
20120907 21:57:15< pozic> blarumyrram: I am stupid, because wesnoth developers made a mistake?
20120907 21:57:20 * shadowm looks and wonders what the hell is going on.
20120907 21:57:22< pozic> blarumyrram: interesting line of logic.
20120907 21:58:36< shadowm> pozic: There's a lot of open-source (as well as closed-source) software out there that releases with even greater bug counts. That's not really an argument for anything.
20120907 21:58:52< elias> *especially closed-source :P
20120907 21:59:15< shadowm> Also, SDL is in charge of most of the stuff dealing with the window system, not Wesnoth, which simply interfaces with X11 or whatever you have through it.
20120907 21:59:23< pozic> shadowm: just because others do it wrong, doesn't mean you have to.
20120907 21:59:28< pozic> shadowm: wrong answer
20120907 21:59:42< shadowm> No, it's not the wrong answer because I wasn't answering a question in the first place.
20120907 21:59:44< pozic> shadowm: the developers of wesnoth have chosen to use SDL.
20120907 21:59:50< elias> at least in my personal experience - on the open source projects i contribute everyone at least tries to fix bug - on the closed-source stuff I do for work nobody cares about bugs :P
20120907 21:59:59< pozic> shadowm: if SDL doesn't solve the problem, use something else.
20120907 22:00:11< shadowm> pozic: Okay, I hope you are going to pay us to do that.
20120907 22:00:24< pozic> shadowm: it was a happy open-source project just a minute ago.
20120907 22:00:51< pozic> shadowm: so, basically your business plan is to first create a crappy product and then ask people for money to fix it?
20120907 22:00:57< pozic> shadowm: excellent strategy!
20120907 22:01:04< shadowm> Hey hey hey. Calm down for a bit.
20120907 22:01:07< pozic> Did you learn that on Harvard Business School?
20120907 22:01:19< loonycyborg> It still is a happy open-source project because you fail at trolling :P
20120907 22:01:22< shadowm> I can't possibly refute your unusual arguments if you keep babbling.
20120907 22:01:32< pozic> shadowm: again wrong.
20120907 22:01:38< pozic> shadowm: you cannot refute my arguments.
20120907 22:01:39< shadowm> Let's make this worthwhile for both of us, please.
20120907 22:01:41< elias> our last customer was overjoyed when i made the application not break when clicking its border :) (apparently they had complained for half a year, but it never was passed on to me)
20120907 22:01:42< shadowm> Okay.
20120907 22:01:44< zookeeper> shadowm, i can't be arsed to find the kick commands again, so please stop the trollfest already :p
20120907 22:01:49-!- mode/#wesnoth [+q *!*@unaffiliated/pozic] by ChanServ
20120907 22:02:02< shadowm> Thank you for being honest about it.
20120907 22:02:03< zookeeper> awesome
20120907 22:02:21< loonycyborg> That jerk refused to tell me about his multi-monitor setup :(
20120907 22:02:58< shadowm> zookeeper: Yeah well, I have seen other people do a far better job about it.
20120907 22:03:30< shadowm> Very recently, in fact.
20120907 22:03:59< zookeeper> about what?
20120907 22:04:06< shadowm> About trolling.
20120907 22:04:09< zookeeper> oh, yeah
20120907 22:04:22< shadowm> It's not fun when they don't give anyone a chance to play along.
20120907 22:05:49-!- pozic [~b@unaffiliated/pozic] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20120907 22:19:20< Necrosporus> For wesnoth, I see unfortunately he's not completely wrong, but at least it works
20120907 22:20:51< Necrosporus> Thought would I have enough understanding of how engine work, I'd try to redesign it somehow, to make its structure simpler, clearer and more versatile
20120907 22:22:01< Necrosporus> ... and people will complain their favorite addons doesn't work anymore
20120907 22:27:12< zookeeper> understanding would be the easiest part.
20120907 22:27:26< zookeeper> time and skill would be the hard part.
20120907 22:28:42< Necrosporus> more or less the problem is wml stuff is not completely unified
20120907 22:28:54< shadowm> And understanding is not necessarily easy in many cases; the animation engine, terrain builder, GUI (all three of them), WML preprocessor, and WML parser come to mind.
20120907 22:29:13< Necrosporus> For example "defender hits" and "attacker hits"
20120907 22:29:22< Necrosporus> It was initially designed in wrong way
20120907 22:30:23< Necrosporus> And now if one change it in developer version, it would break compatibility... again
20120907 22:30:58< Necrosporus> Though it may be done in less clear way, via adding event "unit hits"
20120907 22:31:34< Necrosporus> It won't break compatibility, but add some unnecessary complexity
20120907 22:33:00< Necrosporus> I guess, if one redesign wesnoth at whole, it would make just all code useless, every addon to port would requre complete rewrite, not just a little tuning
20120907 22:34:42< shadowm> Okay, but you are focusing on syntax issues.
20120907 22:35:05< shadowm> Most players don't give a crap about WML because they don't create ocntent.
20120907 22:35:43< shadowm> It's perfectly possible to fix syntax screw-ups in a gradual fashion and it's been done before, but it takes someone willing to do it.
20120907 22:35:55< blarumyrram> I've thought of redoing wesnoth as a flash game. All new graphics, all new code. Almost nothing of WML or Lua (as I know nothing of either anyway), only enough for the usecase of: multiplayer match, with Default era, on simple maps (like "Caves of the basilisk" and "Charge" and the maps that could be created with the map editor) - and for that kind of games it would be multiplayer-compatible with the stable official wesnoth client so it would
20120907 22:35:56< blarumyrram>  have a nice userbase to lift it off (because making multiplayer games is otherwise very risky - if you don't cross some threshold of "you can at any time join a lobby & reasonably hope to find an open match", the game will completely fail)
20120907 22:36:00< shadowm> "Don't fix what isn't broken", basically, especially if you have a lot of other things to attend to in your life besides Wesnoth.
20120907 22:36:12< shadowm> s/to in/in/
20120907 22:36:17< Necrosporus> And when I were one I did think Wesnoth almost perfect (with few more or less easily fixable issues)
20120907 22:36:35-!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9-rc1]
20120907 22:37:46< Necrosporus> WML is itself a problem. it's a markup language
20120907 22:37:56< Necrosporus> Why is it even used to code behavior?
20120907 22:37:58< shadowm> That's not going to change.
20120907 22:38:03< shadowm> Historical reasons, mainly.
20120907 22:38:42< Necrosporus> Are there explanations why is it WML instead of something Tcl-like 
20120907 22:38:48< shadowm> Anyway WML syntax issues like the counterintuitive attacker/defender events and set_variable[s].to_variable would be nice to solve over time but require some tedious work on wmllint conversions (which aren't always feasible), deprecation and gradual phasing out of code and documentation. There's also some social precedent for those changes that's not really encouraging.
20120907 22:39:11< zookeeper> adding new event types is rather trivial AFAIK
20120907 22:39:20< zookeeper> you just need to get someone to do it
20120907 22:40:05< Necrosporus> Though it would not fix the issue, it would just mask it
20120907 22:40:33< Necrosporus> It's not necessary bad, with this masses of already existing addons
20120907 22:40:35< zookeeper> what's the issue?
20120907 22:40:49< Necrosporus> > counterintuitive attacker/defender events 
20120907 22:41:19< zookeeper> that's not a problem if you don't need to use them.
20120907 22:42:32< Necrosporus> Why do I have to define unit filters just for every action, if I want everything to happen with units selected in event filter?
20120907 22:44:07< zookeeper> why do you ask like a hundred pointless why questions every day?
20120907 22:44:36< shadowm> So yeah blah blah, WML. That's not really what concerns me the most, really.
20120907 22:45:19< Necrosporus> And for particular problem: http://pastebin.com/tyzvuXSA here (I already shown this code): ... [/harm_unit] [sound] name=poison.ogg [/sound]
20120907 22:45:37< shadowm> There are actual user-visible issues everywhere awaiting to be fixed whenever we get the manpower, but I'm too lazy to rant here, not to mention that users tend to misinterpret everything when they lack a technical understanding.
20120907 22:45:54< shadowm> *a thorough
20120907 22:46:06< Necrosporus> I already know this is done in wrong way, since sound sounds every time on turn refresh
20120907 22:46:24< shadowm> In the worst cases there are trolls lurking in the shadows and awaiting to e.g. interpret "inefficient" as "broken".
20120907 22:46:36< Necrosporus> What's the correct way to add sound here?
20120907 22:46:52< Necrosporus> there's no filter in [sound][/sound]
20120907 22:47:38< Necrosporus> Every other action seem to have filters, but not [sound] (or at least wiki don't say about it)
20120907 22:48:19< shadowm> Obviously not, because [sound] is a thing that interfaces with the sound code directly.
20120907 22:49:01< shadowm> I don't know what you are doing and I am not going to look at your code, but it sounds like you want either http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ConditionalActionsWML or make your event trigger only when a given condition yields true ([filter_condition]).
20120907 22:49:39< Necrosporus> What I do not like here I have to repeat pretty complex filter
20120907 22:50:31< shadowm> Yeah, I don't know what you are doing but odds are there's a simpler way to do what you want if you actually take the time to learn, experiment, and postpone optimizations until you are actually sure of what you are doing.
20120907 22:51:13< shadowm> And in case I wasn't clear, the sound system does not care about whether a sound can be associated to a unit or not.
20120907 22:53:02< Necrosporus> play poison sound as many times as there are infected units, I guess. And I guess, it's FOREACH macro is for
20120907 22:53:30< Necrosporus> or play it once if there are infected units
20120907 22:56:56< shadowm> Sounds like you don't even need a filter then.
20120907 22:57:17< Necrosporus> Also what I don't like, is there are generic weapon specials for [poison], [plague] and so on, which are pretty much restricted in what is possible to do with them. I know it's possible to do it with events, but you can't code all events within weapon special clause, you have to code and include it separately
20120907 22:57:42< celticminstrel> Just do a loop for that...
20120907 22:57:43-!- MadMerlin2 [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20120907 22:58:11< celticminstrel> But yes. There are a million problems with WML. Deal with it.
20120907 22:58:30< celticminstrel> Despite that it's still insanely flexible. Somehow.
20120907 22:58:54< celticminstrel> Yes it would be nice if it were more intuitive, but at least it's functional.
20120907 22:59:14< Necrosporus> There's no versatile way to define arbitrary weapon special. Some you can define with existing tags like simple plague, others you have to implement via a set of very complex events
20120907 22:59:29< celticminstrel> You've disproved your own statement.
20120907 22:59:50< shadowm> So I am assuming the only relevant portion of your massive paste is this: http://pastebin.com/x8zcNRHX
20120907 23:00:15< Necrosporus> There's no single versatile way to define weapon special inside [specials] tag
20120907 23:00:16< Necrosporus> yes
20120907 23:00:48< Necrosporus> Other events defining how one may get infected
20120907 23:00:52< shadowm> When asking for help, it's greatly more appropriate to be specific.
20120907 23:01:19-!- Crendgrim [~crend@77-22-112-72-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: ...]
20120907 23:02:10< shadowm> I considered rearranging the event's code in some fashion, but [harm_unit] does provide functionality that could be used as some kind of verification pass.
20120907 23:04:00< shadowm> First, make sure to clear an array (let it be named 'damaged') before the [harm_unit] call; then, set variable=damaged under [harm_unit]. After the action, if damaged.length is not zero, it means you did harm units.
20120907 23:04:27< shadowm> That's your condition for firing [sound] afterwards.
20120907 23:04:47< Necrosporus> How can I set a variable inside an action?
20120907 23:05:11< shadowm> Setting a variable is an action itself.
20120907 23:05:28< celticminstrel> Wait what.
20120907 23:05:31< Necrosporus> yes. can I do action inside action?
20120907 23:05:43< Necrosporus> Than I just can directly call [sound]
20120907 23:05:59< celticminstrel> Um.
20120907 23:06:07< shadowm> Without going into details, you can implement actions in Lua in such way that they invoke actions themselves (this is in fact how [harm_unit] and a bunch of other actions are implemented).
20120907 23:06:23< celticminstrel> According to the wiki, variable= in a [harm_unit] stores the amount of damage.
20120907 23:06:30< shadowm> Yes.
20120907 23:06:35< celticminstrel> Oh, but I suppose the length then would still be the number of units damaged.
20120907 23:06:51< shadowm> I thought that was obvious, because anyone reading my advice should go and look it up in the documentation.
20120907 23:06:57< zookeeper> wtf. just store the units, foreach over them and harm+sound each in turn.
20120907 23:07:32< shadowm> That's also a possibility, which would allow for the cleanest approach IMO.
20120907 23:07:50< celticminstrel> Could Lua add a sound= key to [harm_unit]?
20120907 23:08:04< zookeeper> surely it's not pure and dandy enough for him, though.
20120907 23:08:25< celticminstrel> Randomly, it'd probably be useful to add an id= key to the array obtained form [harm_unit].
20120907 23:08:48-!- mthe [~mthe@94-193-44-47.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 23:08:48-!- mthe [~mthe@94-193-44-47.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Changing host]
20120907 23:08:48-!- mthe [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 23:09:27< shadowm> celticminstrel: Yes, and you could either do that by creating a new action in Lua (let it be [my_harm_unit]) that aggregates [harm_unit] and [sound], or by submitting a patch against [harm_unit] in mainline.
20120907 23:09:47< celticminstrel> I was under the impression that Lua can redefine built-in action tags.
20120907 23:09:56< shadowm> It could be argued that the animation possibility (animate=yes) make that unnecessary for most situations, though, making the patch rather redundant.
20120907 23:10:05< shadowm> celticminstrel: [harm_unit] isn't built-in.
20120907 23:10:21< celticminstrel> Um, yes it is.
20120907 23:10:26< shadowm> No, it's not.
20120907 23:10:33< shadowm> It's part of the core Lua WML actions set.
20120907 23:10:34< celticminstrel> But I guess we have a different definition of "built-in".
20120907 23:10:42< shadowm> Therefore, if you override it you lose it.
20120907 23:10:42-!- IvanMorve [~martin@85-171-174-207.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: IvanMorve]
20120907 23:10:58< celticminstrel> Which animation will animate=yes play?
20120907 23:11:07< Necrosporus> defend one
20120907 23:11:10< Necrosporus> probably
20120907 23:11:12< shadowm> Overriding is possible only when the action is implemented in the C++ backend.
20120907 23:11:20< celticminstrel> Um, you can save the old action before overriding it...
20120907 23:11:32< shadowm> Yes, you can do that and break any amount of code.
20120907 23:11:37< celticminstrel> With something like old_action = wml_tags.harm_unit.
20120907 23:11:50< celticminstrel> It won't break any amount of code if it does the exact same thing as the old one.
20120907 23:12:10< Necrosporus> animate: (default no) if yes, scrolls to each unit before harming it and plays its defense (or attack, if it's the harmer) and death animations.
20120907 23:12:14< celticminstrel> Anyway, maybe if you let animate=flag be used.
20120907 23:12:21< shadowm> The old action would have to be kept somewhere.
20120907 23:12:35-!- libreman [~libreman@host63-221-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: libreman]
20120907 23:12:41< Necrosporus> When I tried to do that, death animation was played for newly created unit (a zombie)
20120907 23:13:05< celticminstrel> The old action could be invoked by the new one.
20120907 23:13:20< celticminstrel> It's just a function, right?
20120907 23:14:59< shadowm> I admit I don't know much about how Lua works in that regard, but if the original function isn't set to a global variable (presumably wesnoth.wml_actions.somenamehere) it will be garbage-collected and die.
20120907 23:16:15< celticminstrel> I don't know if this is how Lua works, but I'd guess that referencing it in the new function would cause it to be saved.
20120907 23:16:55-!- blarumyrram is now known as blarumyrran
20120907 23:17:05-!- mystic_x [~X@unaffiliated/mysticx] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20120907 23:17:13< celticminstrel> As part of the data associated with the new function… the closure.
20120907 23:17:39< shadowm> Only if it exists in the first place.
20120907 23:17:46< celticminstrel> Hm?
20120907 23:18:00< shadowm> Remember, you are replacing it in the first place by setting wesnoth.wml_actions.harm_unit to your new function.
20120907 23:18:11< shadowm> That happens long before your function is invoked.
20120907 23:18:26< celticminstrel> Right, but before you do that you'd save wesnoth.wml_actions.harm_unit into a different variable.
20120907 23:19:20< shadowm> Yeah, you can do that, as long as the variable stays alive.
20120907 23:19:36< shadowm> I don't know whether that would work for e.g. local variables.
20120907 23:19:58< celticminstrel> If Lua supports closures, it should work.
20120907 23:20:07< celticminstrel> But if in doubt, just don't make it local, right?
20120907 23:21:10< shadowm> Or set wesnoth.wml_actions.core_harm_unit = wesnoth.wml_actions.harm_unit and then set wesnoth.wml_actions.harm_unit again.
20120907 23:21:39< celticminstrel> Well, that is indeed one way of not making it local.
20120907 23:21:50< celticminstrel> Just a simple assignment works too though.
20120907 23:22:08< celticminstrel> Lua variables are only local if explicitly declared to be.
20120907 23:22:37< shadowm> The thing is that I don't know whether that can be done in the first place, but if it can, you'll want to be extremely careful about breaking code that isn't aware about the new behavior, or changing the gamestate in MP when the file with the Lua code overriding the action will not necessarily be present or executed.
20120907 23:22:45< celticminstrel> …the exact opposite of Python, incidentally.
20120907 23:22:54< celticminstrel> Well yes. That's true.
20120907 23:23:20-!- MadMerlin2 [~neil@206-248-167-197.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 23:23:31< shadowm> Cosmetic changes like adding a sound attribute to play a sound action are innocuous, but it's tempting to do something more advanced with it.
20120907 23:23:35< celticminstrel> The code would be executed in MP though, wouldn't it? It'd be in a preload event or something.
20120907 23:23:46< shadowm> Furthermore, this is a maintainability problem in the event that your changes will never be merged in mainline.
20120907 23:24:43< shadowm> If you deviate too much from the mainline syntax, a prospective maintainer could simply not notice that your invocations of [harm_unit] in WML are not actually for the mainline [harm_unit] directly.
20120907 23:25:29< celticminstrel> It would be a maintainability problem if you made major changes, in particular if you altered the behaviour of existing keys; however, if you're only adding another key which doesn't affect the base behaviour, or you're adding a key as a shortcut that can be rephrased in terms of other existing keys, then the new function would simply do its stuff and pass it over to the old function, meaning that when the old function changes behaviour
20120907 23:25:30< celticminstrel> new one will too.
20120907 23:25:56< celticminstrel> If you wanted to make major changes with very different syntax, then I wouldn't recommend overriding an existing tag.
20120907 23:26:06< shadowm> I'd really advise using a different name to avoid any possible confusion.
20120907 23:26:18< celticminstrel> I would generally agree with this.
20120907 23:26:35< celticminstrel> (I'm pretty sure there's an example somewhere on the wiki about overriding an existing tag.)
20120907 23:26:59< shadowm> That is, strictly from a good practice standpoint.
20120907 23:29:15< celticminstrel> I definitely want to ignore MetalKing and ChaosRider.
20120907 23:30:19< shadowm> I think you can use the Friend/Foe thing in your UCP for that end.
20120907 23:30:41< celticminstrel> Probably, but calling them a foe when they're just irritating feels kinda extreme. :/
20120907 23:31:01< shadowm> Says the one who decided to name them in public in the first place. :)
20120907 23:31:23< celticminstrel> Not entirely sure what you mean by this.
20120907 23:32:08-!- mthe [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has quit [Quit: Bye!]
20120907 23:32:28< celticminstrel> Oh. Wow.
20120907 23:33:21< celticminstrel> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=537315#p537315
20120907 23:33:32< celticminstrel> ^ funny
20120907 23:41:38-!- mystic_x [~X@unaffiliated/mysticx] has joined #wesnoth
20120907 23:41:40< blarumyrran> celticminstrel, if you see his name on the right, you should close the browser and listen to some metal; imagine that this is what he is saying
20120907 23:43:02< celticminstrel> Hehe.
20120907 23:44:31< celticminstrel> His name's on the left though… not that that's relevant.
20120907 23:45:19< blarumyrran> ... right
20120907 23:54:07-!- Vorpal [~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20120907 23:56:57-!- Haldrik [~haldrik@unaffiliated/haldrik] has quit [Quit: Haldrik]
--- Log closed Sat Sep 08 00:00:12 2012