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20121010 05:06:52< mattsc> Hi Alarantalara (and Crab_, if you're awake).
20121010 05:07:14< Alarantalara> hello, mattsc
20121010 05:07:23< SeattleDad> Hi Alarantalara
20121010 05:07:42< mattsc> I've been chatting with SeattleDad about incorporating the ML recruiter in Fred and/or Ron...
20121010 05:07:58< mattsc> ... or testing with or against the two
20121010 05:08:08< SeattleDad> I'm working on version 0.3 which will have a lot of enhancements
20121010 05:08:47< SeattleDad> Performance is pushing 74% win ratio against the default recruiter now
20121010 05:08:54< mattsc> Since you (Alarantalara) have done most of the work on recruiting and have tested the MLr already, I thought you might be the better person to talk to.
20121010 05:09:38< SeattleDad> I know you tested it and came up with a scenario where it recruited 100% Wose, but I think that's a relatively rare occurrence
20121010 05:09:58< SeattleDad> I'm working on getting it to not do that, though
20121010 05:10:13< SeattleDad> I've basically got a setting where you can dial up and down the randomness
20121010 05:11:57< SeattleDad> I think it would automatically adapt to work well with what you're doing in Fred and Ron
20121010 05:12:34< SeattleDad> I also have some tools that would be helpful for you guys.  For instance, I've rewritten ai_test2.py to allow running 1000's of tests
20121010 05:13:38< Alarantalara> I should probably get around to redoing the patch. Is it ever likely that you'll be able to generate recruiting rules that do not require previous training so it would work with new factions?
20121010 05:13:47< Alarantalara> Even if it isn't as good as true training.
20121010 05:13:53< SeattleDad> One other idea I've had is that we might be able to collaborate on an attack AI which would weigh whether an outcome is better or worse for the attacker or defender
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20121010 05:15:28< SeattleDad> I've got a pushbutton script right now which can generate a new recruiter in that situation.  
20121010 05:16:13< SeattleDad> For your new faction, have it play your enemy for 1000 games and it outputs a new .json file with the model for the faction
20121010 05:16:28< SeattleDad> The .json is about 65k in size
20121010 05:16:35< SeattleDad> Would that work?
20121010 05:17:10< Alarantalara> It would work, but it means an extra step every time someone creates an era.
20121010 05:17:20< Alarantalara> I shudder to think of the number of trials for Ageless Era
20121010 05:17:42< SeattleDad> How many factions in Ageless Era?
20121010 05:17:54< Alarantalara> more than 20
20121010 05:17:59< Alarantalara> I'll have to count
20121010 05:18:25< Alarantalara> 82
20121010 05:18:32< SeattleDad> Wow
20121010 05:18:54< SeattleDad> Roughly how many units?
20121010 05:19:01< SeattleDad> How many unit types, that is?
20121010 05:19:30< Alarantalara> I'd guess 7-8 per faction, so several hundred
20121010 05:19:42< Alarantalara> Probably 500 minimum
20121010 05:19:48< SeattleDad> Okay, so units are generally not shared across factions
20121010 05:20:02< Alarantalara> Not at all
20121010 05:20:44< SeattleDad> I'm guessing that I could adapt it to not be unit-specific
20121010 05:22:07< SeattleDad> It makes it more complex, but I could make it look at unit speed, # of attacks, type of attack, HP, etc.
20121010 05:22:36< SeattleDad> That may be a bit down the road, however
20121010 05:23:20< SeattleDad> In the short to medium term, I'm imagining that the two AI's could co-exist
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20121010 05:23:58< SeattleDad> Probably the RCA Recruiter would be used for Ageless, while the ML AI would be used for the default era
20121010 05:24:23< SeattleDad> I'm expecting to be able to move from 2-player to multiplayer in the version after this one
20121010 05:25:01< SeattleDad> So perhaps the ML AI could be used as the default recruiter for multiplayer default era at the start
20121010 05:26:12< Alarantalara> To be fair, there are so many unusual abilities in Ageless era, that it would be very difficult to do something reasonable for it.
20121010 05:26:38< SeattleDad> This would take more work
20121010 05:27:15< SeattleDad> What I've done in the 0.3 version is to make the ML Recruiter aware of various special abilities
20121010 05:27:39< SeattleDad> For instance, it now gives a unit credit when it slows, poisons, or heals
20121010 05:28:06< SeattleDad> The basic "performance metric" is one suggested by Sapient:
20121010 05:29:00< SeattleDad> (hit_points_of_damage/max_hitpoints) * gold_cost_of_target
20121010 05:29:30< SeattleDad> So you could see this as "how much gold damage did I inflict on the enemy?"
20121010 05:30:09< SeattleDad> The neural net basically predicts the amount of gold damage it thinks a given unit will do when recruited in a given situation
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20121010 05:30:47< SeattleDad> With the special abilities, it's now recruiting more Orcish Assassains and Ghouls, for instance
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20121010 05:32:45< SeattleDad> Note that I don't have to worry about abilities like charge, backstab, invisibility
20121010 05:33:05< SeattleDad> These things tend to get reflected in the basic damage metric
20121010 05:35:21< SeattleDad> I'm wondering if we could use a similar idea for a new attack/retreat AI
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20121010 05:36:19< Alarantalara> You mean evaluate a metric and use it to decide whether to attack or retreat. Almost certainly.
20121010 05:36:35< SeattleDad> Exactly
20121010 05:36:46< Alarantalara> Fred already has one, though I don't think mattsc claims it's anywhere close to ideal yet
20121010 05:37:12< mattsc> I definitely don't make that claim.
20121010 05:37:23< SeattleDad> Look at the unit being attacked.  How much do we predict that its future metric will be going forward?  Similarly for the attacker.
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20121010 05:38:01< SeattleDad> My metric is described here, by the way:  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Machine_Learning_Recruiter#Gold_Yield 
20121010 05:38:38< SeattleDad> Then look at what the neural net predicts the future "gold yield" metric will be for the attacker if it instead retreats to a village
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20121010 05:39:27< SeattleDad> When the gain in gold yield from a retreat is greater than the gain in gold yield plus loss of enemy gold yield from an attack, then retreat
20121010 05:40:18< SeattleDad> For instance, it should see that it's okay to sacrifice a goblin spearman to knock out a Level 2 unit, but not vice versa
20121010 05:40:49< mattsc> SeattleDad: how would you deal with attack combinations and the fact that not all combinations of my units against enemy units are possible in that case?
20121010 05:41:13< mattsc> because there aren't enough hexes, ZOCing etc.
20121010 05:42:06< SeattleDad> Mattsc:  I'm speculating that this could be done one unit at a time
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20121010 05:42:36< Alarantalara> Units usually attack and retreat in groups, though
20121010 05:42:54< SeattleDad> In other words, the unit whose attack has the highest delta in gold yield goes first, then evaluate the next unit
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20121010 05:43:23< SeattleDad> Alarantalara:  Good point.  The plan could be made before it's executed
20121010 05:43:57< mattsc> I found that we usually want either all units to attack, or all of them to retreat (or hold position); at least in a given area of the map.
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20121010 05:44:28< SeattleDad> Start with the best attack, assume the median outcome.  Then find the next best attack.  If the total attack seems favorable, then proceed
20121010 05:44:49< mattsc> That's pretty much what my attack combination algorithm does.
20121010 05:45:13< mattsc> (which sounds like I might be on the right track)
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20121010 05:45:44< SeattleDad> So I guess what I'm wondering is whether your attack combination algorithm could be made better if it had a more precise estimate of the value of a given unit
20121010 05:46:18< mattsc> almost certainly.  It's rather simplistic at the moment.
20121010 05:47:54< mattsc> SeattleDad, Alarantalara: I have to take off and drink beer now.  This is very interesting though, maybe we can pick this up again some other time?  (And I'll read up on the rest of your conversation later)
20121010 05:48:46< SeattleDad> What I should be able to tell you is that a Mage with 65% of its hitpoints can be expected to yield a 14.2 gold damage metric going forward, whereas a mage with 33% of its hitpoints will have 4.8 gold damage going forward
20121010 05:49:01< SeattleDad> mattsc:  Yes, let's pick this up again later
20121010 05:49:08< SeattleDad> Thanks for chatting
20121010 05:49:22< Alarantalara> The goal of changing attack retreat algorithms will probably change those numbers, though
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20121010 05:50:12< mattsc> Thanks.  I'll be on here on and off throughout the rest of the week.  Bye for now.
20121010 05:50:25< Alarantalara> Are the statistics you posted for win rates about the same with 0.2 as you have in the wiki for 0.1?
20121010 05:51:16< SeattleDad> 0.2 is roughly the same win rate is 0.1, maybe a touch better
20121010 05:51:36< SeattleDad> 0.3 is still in development, but has moved up from 0.2
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20121010 05:52:02< SeattleDad> In "choose the best" mode, it's beating RCA AI around 74% of the time
20121010 05:52:43< SeattleDad> In the "more variety" mode, it's winning around 69.5% of the time
20121010 05:54:52< SeattleDad> Interestingly, I haven't formally measured it, but in the "more variety" mode, I think it recruits a greater variety than RCA AI
20121010 05:55:25< SeattleDad> My recruiter blends in a good number of Dwarvish Ulfserkers, for instance, which the RCA AI never recruits
20121010 05:58:33< SeattleDad> My thought was that the ML Recruiter could help with difficulty settings
20121010 05:59:18< SeattleDad> More randomness would yield an easier difficulty, less randomness, harder difficulty
20121010 05:59:22< Alarantalara> Since you mentioned ai_tes2, I decided to try running the ml best recruiter against the somewhat arbitrary one I wrote for the generic rush (after turning off all the the non-recruitment improvements). 
20121010 05:59:38< Alarantalara> It's still running at the moment
20121010 05:59:53< SeattleDad> Cool.  Will be interested to hear how it comes out
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20121010 06:00:09< SeattleDad> Are you using my patch to ai_test2?  I made a number of enhancements
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20121010 06:00:31< Alarantalara> I'm using the one that came with 0.2 of ml
20121010 06:01:03< SeattleDad> Yep, that should work.  I've further improved it for 0.3, but the 0.2 version should be fine
20121010 06:01:17< Alarantalara> So far it's 5 for what I wrote and 4 for the ML recruiter
20121010 06:01:27< Alarantalara> now 5 each
20121010 06:02:14< SeattleDad> So it's vanilla RCA AI other than the recruiters?
20121010 06:02:30< Alarantalara> yes
20121010 06:04:54< SeattleDad> I'll take a look at your recruiter and see if I can get some ideas
20121010 06:06:32< Alarantalara> It looks like the ml recruiter has a small advantage, but it's much closer
20121010 06:06:33< SeattleDad> I'll see if I can run the same test on my end
20121010 06:07:22< SeattleDad> Good to hear that I'm at least up by a little :-)
20121010 06:07:33< Alarantalara> It shouldn't be difficult. Grab the AI-demos project form github
20121010 06:08:26< Alarantalara> then comment out all the non-macro candidate actions in ai_generic-ruch.cfg except for the one name recruit_rushers
20121010 06:09:09< Alarantalara> The use ~add-ons/AI-demos/ais/ai_generic-rush.cfg as the ai_config parameter
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20121010 06:14:34< SeattleDad> So the idea is that you recruit 60% rusher-type units?
20121010 06:14:47< Alarantalara> Not any more
20121010 06:15:14< Alarantalara> Though it usually ends up close to that
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20121010 06:19:08< Alarantalara> Wow drakes are doing badly. With only one exception, whoever gets drakes loses
20121010 06:22:42< SeattleDad> Drakes do the worst.
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20121010 06:23:22< SeattleDad> Northerners do the best by far
20121010 06:23:56< SeattleDad> My recruiter is still losing on average against Northerners, although by less than on RCA AI vs. RCA AI
20121010 06:27:55< SeattleDad> I'm setting up a match with your AI
20121010 06:28:15< SeattleDad> Am I right that you leave in AI_CA_RECRUITMENT?
20121010 06:28:31< Alarantalara> It's removed
20121010 06:30:39< SeattleDad> I've got to go, but I'll be interested in what you say
20121010 06:31:14< SeattleDad> Note that I've got a tool analyze_log.py
20121010 06:31:44< SeattleDad> Just do analyze_log.py *.log  and it gives a breakdown of win/loss for each combination of units
20121010 06:31:56< Alarantalara> At a glance after 72 runs, the ML recruiter best is winning about 67% over all
20121010 06:32:05< Alarantalara> But I'll be sure to run analyze_log
20121010 06:32:46< SeattleDad> Well, that's a relief for me.  
20121010 06:33:25< SeattleDad> I'll try to get a big run going overnight and will let you know how it goes
20121010 06:33:31< Alarantalara> I can see errors when I play against it though, so I have hopes of improvement
20121010 06:34:23< SeattleDad> Definitely.  I'm working on getting it to avoid recruiting homogeneous armies in some circumstances
20121010 06:34:52< SeattleDad> Okay, got to go.  Thanks for testing this out.  Glad to have someone seeing what I'm seeing.
20121010 06:35:28< SeattleDad> Best way to reach me is to send a mail to me on the Wesnoth forum or post to the ML Recruiter thread
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20121010 06:37:27< Alarantalara> I cn forward the log on to you if it will help
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20121010 19:42:50< anonymissimus> hm can anyone reproduce a crash in the test scenario when clicking on "menu" ? if not, insert an assert(!name_str.empty()) in hotkeys.cpp:690; if that it empty the iterator in the next line is out of bounds
20121010 19:43:52< anonymissimus> I updated boost and managed to compile & build, now it looks as if these crashes I got were unrelated...
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20121010 20:01:36< anonymissimus> timotei: around ?
20121010 20:01:47< timotei> anonymissimus: Yup
20121010 20:02:25< fendrin> anonymissimus: If you can wait investigating until the weekend I offer my help gladly.
20121010 20:10:21< anonymissimus> timotei: I replaced the boost 1.42 headers, libs and dlls with the 1.51 ones; worked around a compiler error in image.cpp and made MSVC ignore MSVCR90;MSVCRT upon linking; then I was able to launch the test scenario under the debugger again
20121010 20:11:17< timotei> Cool.
20121010 20:11:20< anonymissimus> updated boost since AI0867 's merge needed the bzlib2 stuff which 1.42 doesn't seem to provide
20121010 20:11:23< timotei> The test scenario didn't work before?
20121010 20:11:53< anonymissimus> well I wonder why I got the compiler error and the problems when trying to launch+
20121010 20:12:06< anonymissimus> sure it did; until AI0867 's merge
20121010 20:15:09< anonymissimus> timotei: if my MSVC build setup was up tp date, what should I have ? it seems I don't have sp1 installed
20121010 20:15:43< timotei> Well, I have VS 2008 + SP1 installed.
20121010 20:18:09< anonymissimus> okay...and some other updates for it as well ? how do you know it's installed ?
20121010 20:18:35< anonymissimus> is it shown in the "about MSVC" window for instance
20121010 20:18:43< timotei> Well, by the VS version
20121010 20:18:46< timotei> Mine is the following>
20121010 20:19:37< timotei> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/462510/Unbenannt.PNG
20121010 20:27:26< anonymissimus> timotei: I took the boost stuff from the boostpro site which you had given me; when trying to launch the debugger it complained about missing MSVC60.dll which is strange since it's part of the MSVC installation, so I wonder whether I need to update mine somehow, and whether those boost libs were build with one which is "too new" for me
20121010 20:27:42< timotei> Wow
20121010 20:27:48< timotei> MSVC 60!?, That's... OLD
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20121010 20:28:06< anonymissimus> no, 90
20121010 20:28:10< timotei> Ah.
20121010 20:28:11< timotei> xD
20121010 20:28:17< timotei> That's the 
20121010 20:28:21< timotei> Redistributables :)
20121010 20:28:33< timotei> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=29
20121010 20:28:37< timotei> And SP 1
20121010 20:28:44< timotei> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=5582
20121010 20:29:24< anonymissimus> timotei: diff that got me around the compiler error, in case you hit that as well: http://pastebin.com/yg6ymJGj
20121010 20:30:54< timotei> anonymissimus: Will try to compile it now.
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20121010 21:57:24< anonymissimus> timotei: ?
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20121010 22:19:42< timotei> anonymissimus: I'm upgrading to Boost 1.51, but it seems it wouldn't find the headers...
20121010 22:24:38< timotei> Ah, right. I've reinstalled windows and it seems import/export won't work on the VC++ directories :(
20121010 22:29:25< anonymissimus> eyeyey
20121010 22:29:42< anonymissimus> I didn't ask you to install windows ;)
20121010 22:42:46< timotei> Well, I installed Win 8 2 weeks ago.
20121010 22:43:05< timotei> And I am still tweaking here and there so I can make a clone with the working state:)
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20121010 22:48:46< Evropi> It's very important that at least one BfW developer is working on Windows 8
20121010 22:49:45< Evropi> BTW, I literally just released Temple of the nagas 1.26.1. I still haven't done the big change planned for 1.30, but jb's and Mythological's all-time classic is on its way back up the survival scenario ladder
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20121010 22:57:16< timotei> 3>..\..\src\image.cpp(352) : error C2664: 'image::hash_value' : cannot convert parameter 1 from 'const image::locator::type' to 'const image::locator::value &'
20121010 22:57:31< timotei> anonymissimus: I am wondering, why is a cast needed there?
20121010 22:58:20< timotei> Ah, right.
20121010 22:58:37< timotei> They are actually different. One is an enum another one is an int.
20121010 22:58:45< timotei> anonymissimus: Why don't you commit it though?
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20121010 23:04:05< timotei> Well, I'll continue tomorrow. Night
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20121010 23:30:33< anonymissimus> Evropi: feel invited to build wesnoth on win 8 :)
20121010 23:31:10< Evropi> Still on XP pal :)
20121010 23:31:15< Evropi> though I do dabble with Linux
20121010 23:31:21< Evropi> PC just can't handle KDE, which sucks
20121010 23:31:25< Evropi> KDE strong
20121010 23:31:54< anonymissimus> then don't make such statements if you're afraid of the hazzle yourself
20121010 23:31:58< Evropi> I don't like the other desktops, and let's face it, desktop linux is about a) the desktop environment and b) the availability of packages
20121010 23:32:23< Evropi> no, I just said you shouldn't criticise him for being on Windows 8...
20121010 23:32:33< Evropi> still an asset to the team... a very valuable one in fact... -.-
20121010 23:33:10< loonycyborg> Nobody was criticizing him though. Unless I missed something..
20121010 23:34:27< anonymissimus> Evropi: lol, I didn't critisize him; if you read my IRC statements you can see that I encourage and help everyone who tries to build wesnoth on win...
20121010 23:35:36< anonymissimus> timotei: I don't commit it 1) since I think I should ask about it first 2) I only commit once that I know I'm fully done with the issue
20121010 23:38:11< anonymissimus> timotei: my compiler error was bit different; but I used detached head checkout to see that previously a function with parameter type int was called, and now MSVC for some reason no longer found that function...thus the cast to help
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--- Log closed Thu Oct 11 00:00:16 2012