--- Log opened Sun Oct 07 00:00:13 2012
20121007 00:21:03< Alarantalara> Fred recruit vs Ron recruit around turn 20: http://pastebin.com/hjzrbPS3
20121007 00:21:42< Alarantalara> Fred wins turn 30 due to village control
20121007 00:28:33< Alarantalara> skyfaller: Can you play a few games against Ron to identify any more obvious flaws in unit choice?
20121007 00:28:54< Alarantalara> Or watch some of its replays?
20121007 01:11:20< skyfaller> Alarantalara: yeah, I can try some games later tonight... just using the latest version from Github, or do I have to get the branch that you're working on?
20121007 01:12:58< Alarantalara> Latest from github is fine now
20121007 01:13:15< irker008> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16051 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/lua/modify_unit_attacks.cfg:
20121007 01:13:16< irker008> attack modifier lua to wml tag
20121007 01:13:18< Alarantalara> So far I've noticed it likes to recruit horsemen to take on adepts
20121007 01:19:35< Alarantalara> I'm not sure if I should do anything about it. It appears to be a reaction to the presence of adepts and ghouls, since there are few skeletons because of the presence of mages on the other side
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20121007 01:26:28< irker008> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16052 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/utils/general:
20121007 01:26:28< irker008> removed for update
20121007 01:27:59< irker008> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16053 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/utils/ (8 files in 2 dirs):
20121007 01:28:00< irker008> update
20121007 01:33:33< mattsc> Alarantalara: nice!
20121007 01:34:09< mattsc> Would you mind updating the changelog and I'll release 0.11.1 later tonight?
20121007 01:35:42< Alarantalara> Sure. There are a few things that need to go in
20121007 01:36:25< mattsc> No rush.  I want to clean out the new zone-control CA before I do that anyway and I don't have as much time today as I thought.
20121007 01:37:15< mattsc> When I make the post, can I tell Rigor that the new Ron should work with WC?  Or is it not quite there yet?
20121007 01:37:31< Alarantalara> It should work fine.
20121007 01:38:11< Alarantalara> I was hoping I could use +ais to add Ron to every era to test it, but the tag appears to be one of the special ones that can't be modified :(
20121007 01:38:37< mattsc> Great!  (on the former)
20121007 01:38:56< mattsc> Hmm, I didn't even know that that tag existed...
20121007 01:39:11< Alarantalara> It is used exactly once to define the default ai set
20121007 01:40:49< mattsc> And when you say it cannot be modified, you mean with Lua?
20121007 01:41:28< Alarantalara> Most tags you can use [+tag] to reopen it and add more stuff. It's one of the special case ones that doesn't seem to work for
20121007 01:41:42< mattsc> oh...
20121007 01:42:21< mattsc> But could we add some functionality to it with wesnoth.wml_actions() ?
20121007 01:43:15< Alarantalara> It's outside scenario, so very unlikely. The Lua would have to run during the game creation screen, which is rather early
20121007 01:43:31< mattsc> True...
20121007 01:43:57< mattsc> Maybe we could ask a developer to do something about this?  Do we know a developer?  ;)
20121007 01:44:16< Alarantalara> The ai table is open to being modified, so maybe we can get lipk's new modification tag to have an ai option in it too.
20121007 01:45:10< mattsc> Good point...
20121007 01:45:47< mattsc> I didn't have enough time to think about that, but it should be possible to set up the AI in an event.
20121007 01:46:06< mattsc> Especially in trunk, where the engine definition is not necessary any more.
20121007 01:46:38< mattsc> So I think it should be possible to use lipk's modification work.
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20121007 03:55:07< Alarantalara> OKay, that's annoying. I noticed the default recruit CA was still active and recruiting bowmen vs undead. I turn it off and the loyalist match improved, but I missed checking the other matches and the rest all got worse
20121007 04:02:30< Alarantalara> I'll revert back to what it was when I merged since I liked it there
20121007 04:21:04< mattsc> ok.  do you want more time for testing before we release it?
20121007 04:22:42< Alarantalara> I'm actually happy with how it was there
20121007 04:23:40< skyfaller_> mattsc: are you going to be around for a little while? I'm going to spend the next ~30 mins trying to make a test case for Fred
20121007 04:24:10< mattsc> I'm going to be in and out for the next 2 hours or so.
20121007 04:25:29< mattsc> Alarantalara: ok.  I'll release either later tonight or tomorrow morning.  I don't seem to have more than a few minutes at a time for Wesnoth today.
20121007 04:37:31< skyfaller_> mattsc: I am having trouble getting the game into debug mode, can you help me?
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20121007 04:38:05< skyfaller> I mean, I am having trouble getting CA debugging mode working
20121007 04:38:14< skyfaller> I am using the latest Github version
20121007 04:38:19< skyfaller> of the add-on
20121007 04:38:46< skyfaller> oh, that's probably why
20121007 04:41:52< skyfaller> ok, I got CA debugging working now
20121007 04:50:50< irker008> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r16054 /trunk/Tales_of_the_Setting_Sun/ (12 files in 4 dirs):
20121007 04:50:51< irker008> 3 unrelated issues:  1.Some fixes to Ch4 Northlands, worldmap and Bhagto 2.Some imperfect fixes to weapons skills 3. Replaced first scenario - needs further revision
20121007 04:51:56< skyfaller> how do you edit the traits of a unit?
20121007 04:52:05< skyfaller> like, make a unit strong instead of intelligent
20121007 04:58:11< skyfaller> Alarantalara: do you know how to edit the traits of a unit in debug mode?
20121007 04:58:49< Alarantalara> It's not directly possible unfortunately
20121007 04:59:07< Alarantalara> You can recreate the unit to reroll traits until you get the ones you wany
20121007 04:59:11< Alarantalara> *want
20121007 04:59:39< Alarantalara> after that, adjusting current hp is reasonably easy
20121007 05:00:00< skyfaller> that is REALLY annoying
20121007 05:00:37< skyfaller> I want to re-create the same situation Fred faced in a previous game, to make sure any differences in behavior are because of differences in Fred, not in the scenario he's facing
20121007 05:00:54< Alarantalara> I suspect getting exact traits hasn't really mattered before this
20121007 05:02:15< skyfaller> well, I wouldn't have to do this if I had run the game with a modern version of FRed
20121007 05:02:28< skyfaller> so hopefully this won't be necessary going forward
20121007 05:02:42< skyfaller> but right now I am very irked
20121007 05:02:53< skyfaller> in the future I will just load the replay
20121007 05:02:58< Alarantalara> Another alternative would be to edit the save game, but that can get interesting...
20121007 05:03:34< irker008> wesnoth-umc-dev: sigurdfdragon * r16055 /trunk/Random_Campaign/utils_mp/ (level_data_mp.cfg level_data_1p.cfg _sides_mp.cfg):
20121007 05:03:35< irker008> RC: Make mp campaign changes missed in #16028, make scenario 3 have turn limit, add 50 gold in scenario 4.
20121007 05:04:31< Alarantalara> Basically, the trait is an effect that is applied on unit creation and uneditable afterward. You can't even get rid of them in WML without recreating the unit in the background
20121007 05:05:12< mattsc> skyfaller: You could write yourself a right-click option to change the traits of a unit - but that's a lot of work for something that isn't really worth it IMO.
20121007 05:09:01< skyfaller> mattsc: actually I would kind of like that :) Any tips on how I would do that? web pages I should read?
20121007 05:10:29< Alarantalara> It's annoyingly hard: see http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=37274&p=535527
20121007 05:10:55< mattsc> skyfaller: well, you set up the right-click option the same way as the others in multiplayer/era.cfg
20121007 05:11:42< mattsc> For changing the traits, Alarantalara ninja'd me.
20121007 05:12:23< mattsc> Make sure you read the entire thread though, not just the last post.  There's a complication to it...
20121007 05:13:28< mattsc> Also note that the right-click option will only be available in a savegame that was played in a version set up with this capability already, just as with the rest of the debug functionality.
20121007 05:14:57< mattsc> So, I'd do what our wise co-coder said: just reroll...  :)
20121007 05:15:22< skyfaller> create, kill, create, kill....
20121007 05:15:39< mattsc> you don't need to kill
20121007 05:15:49< mattsc> just create on the occupied hex
20121007 05:16:08< skyfaller> oh right
20121007 05:16:18< skyfaller> ok, so create him until he has the right traits
20121007 05:16:19< skyfaller> fine
20121007 05:16:41< mattsc> yep.  A bit annoying, but less work than the alternatives...
20121007 05:16:42< Alarantalara> And it remembers the last unit, so shift-C, enter makes it reasonably easy
20121007 05:39:18< mattsc> Alarantalara: what do you think of skyfaller's suggestion to stop development under 1.10 and make further improvements for 1.11 only?
20121007 05:39:42< Alarantalara> It's fine with me
20121007 05:41:22< mattsc> There are a few things that can be done in 1.11 only, and maybe we're at the point where that's worth it...
20121007 05:41:52< mattsc> Using lipk's new tag being the latest example.
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20121007 06:03:42< skyfaller> mattsc: wait, so is there no way to create a leader unit that doesn't have traits?
20121007 06:05:06< mattsc> Hmm, good question.  I can't think of any right now...
20121007 06:14:25< skyfaller> that's also very obnoxious
20121007 06:16:12< skyfaller> aw crap.
20121007 06:16:38< skyfaller> mattsc: how can I add a certain amount of gold to Fred's side while I am p2? If I end turn, Fred will start moving, right?
20121007 06:17:35< skyfaller> oh, I guess he won't
20121007 06:17:41< mattsc> skyfaller: you could droid both sides, change gold when you're in control of side 1, change back over to side 2, the droid side 1 back to AI control.
20121007 06:18:00< mattsc> oh, you're in CA debug mode?
20121007 06:18:03< skyfaller> yeah
20121007 06:18:23< mattsc> no, in that case he should not do anything unless you specifically tell him to execute a CA
20121007 06:18:29< skyfaller> right
20121007 06:20:51< mattsc> skyfaller: I'll have to sign off in a few minutes.  I'll check the logs tomorrow.
20121007 06:22:56< skyfaller> mattsc: wait
20121007 06:23:10< skyfaller> I guess since my leader isn't a real leader, the game is charging upkeep for him
20121007 06:23:28< skyfaller> oh, nevermind
20121007 06:23:32< skyfaller> I see how to fix that
20121007 06:23:36< skyfaller> have a good night!
20121007 06:23:52< mattsc> :)  You're coming up to speed on all the tricks quickly!
20121007 06:23:59< skyfaller> wait
20121007 06:24:00< skyfaller> hm....
20121007 06:24:20< skyfaller> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SingleUnitWML claims that leaders never pay upkeep no matter what upkeep is set to
20121007 06:25:48< mattsc> And?  I just tried, that works for me.
20121007 06:25:50< skyfaller> ...
20121007 06:25:57< skyfaller> my upkeep is different
20121007 06:26:05< skyfaller> despite having the exact same units on the exact same map...
20121007 06:26:24< mattsc> I loaded a random savegame, added an Armageddon Drake -> income changed
20121007 06:26:35< skyfaller> oh, nevermind
20121007 06:26:35< skyfaller> one unit was on the wrong side
20121007 06:26:38< skyfaller> everything is perfect now!
20121007 06:26:50< mattsc> made him canrecruit=yes and ...
20121007 06:26:54< mattsc> ... oh, good.
20121007 06:26:59< mattsc> I'm glad it was that easy.
20121007 06:27:01< skyfaller> thanks for trying it though :)
20121007 06:27:33< mattsc> Thank you for setting up the test case!
20121007 06:27:33< skyfaller> now the map is exactly equal except for the leaders not being real leaders
20121007 06:27:52< skyfaller> do you have time to talk while I run the CA?
20121007 06:28:21< mattsc> Not now, sorry. I must be off.  Not to bed yet, but I've exhausted my Wesnoth time for the day.
20121007 06:28:25< skyfaller> ok
20121007 06:28:36< skyfaller> well, I've made the test case, I'll put it on the forum
20121007 06:28:41< mattsc> Thanks for doing this!  I should be back on tomorrow.
20121007 06:28:47< mattsc> Cool!
20121007 06:28:54< skyfaller> ok, good night!
20121007 06:29:04< mattsc> cheers!
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20121007 08:41:51< skyfaller> if anyone like AI0867 cares, I just posted a test case to http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34976&p=539486#p539486
20121007 08:51:34< irker008> wesnoth-umc-dev: sigurdfdragon * r16056 /trunk/Random_Campaign/utils_sp/ (start_menu.cfg _sides.cfg):
20121007 08:51:35< irker008> RC: Added choice of visibility setting for sp campaign, separate from difficulty level.
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20121007 16:03:39< mattsc> skyfaller: thanks for putting together that test case.  It's going to come in very handy for the things I am planning to do next.
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20121007 19:36:37< skyfaller> mattsc: what are you planning to do next?
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20121007 19:37:26< irker429> wesnoth-umc-dev: sigurdfdragon * r16057 /trunk/Random_Campaign/utils_mp/_sides_mp.cfg:
20121007 19:37:26< irker429> RC: Fixes for gold & income for 4th mp scenario.
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20121007 19:56:08< mattsc> skyfaller: I want to balance the whole attack/hold/retreat thing better across the Freelands map.
20121007 19:56:52< mattsc> This includes taking the villages back in the west, and calling off the rush on the right if they are needed elsewhere
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20121007 20:09:44< irker429> wesnoth-umc-dev: sigurdfdragon * r16058 /trunk/Random_Campaign/ (utils_sp/_sides.cfg utils_mp/_sides_mp.cfg):
20121007 20:09:45< irker429> RC: Set enemy fog & shroud to 'no' in all 3 campaigns, as it is currently ignored.
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20121007 20:36:32< skyfaller> mattsc: OK, I'll keep making test cases
20121007 20:39:37< mattsc> skyfaller: great.  Btw, I've been wondering whether it'd make sense to add a "play through entire AI move" right-click option.
20121007 20:39:47< skyfaller> yes, that would be helpful :)
20121007 20:39:49< mattsc> and/or: "find highest-rated CA"
20121007 20:40:03< skyfaller> b/c otherwise I have to go through the CAs in order based on your ai strategy narrative
20121007 20:40:15< skyfaller> and that document is slightly out of date already
20121007 20:40:22< mattsc> right, that was my thinking
20121007 20:40:30< skyfaller> both options would be very helpful
20121007 20:40:46< mattsc> Ok, I think that is not too hard to do.
20121007 20:40:47< skyfaller> run the turn once to see what the AI does, and then back up and step through it CA by CA to see why it is doing the wrong thing
20121007 20:41:16< mattsc> And I think I could inject it into the test case(s) you've made already after the fact with only a little bit of trickery.
20121007 20:41:26< skyfaller> also, I noticed some minor bugs in the CA listing
20121007 20:41:45< skyfaller> hold_left is still there, but if you try to run it it says it can't find that CA
20121007 20:41:58< skyfaller> and one of the CAs is listed twice
20121007 20:42:06< skyfaller> both entries seem to work
20121007 20:42:29< skyfaller> can you tell me where I would find the CA listing so I can try to fix that myself? :)
20121007 20:42:36< mattsc> ok, I'll look into that.
20121007 20:43:18< mattsc> umm, it's actually not the CA listing, it's the functions that are in the ai table.
20121007 20:43:24< skyfaller> erm, sorry
20121007 20:43:49< mattsc> That was meant as an explanations where it gets them from  :)
20121007 20:44:02< skyfaller> I see... so how is that listing generated?
20121007 20:44:07< mattsc> And that's why hold_left is still there, but doesn't work.
20121007 20:44:27< mattsc> Because for the time being, I left the function in the file (for reference for later), but the CA is not there any more.
20121007 20:44:58< mattsc> check out lua/eval_exec_CA.lua
20121007 20:45:14< mattsc> I believe the listing is set up in there.
20121007 20:45:19< skyfaller> so does that mean there are two copies of one of the functions?
20121007 20:45:45< mattsc> Probably.  My guess is one has an _old at the end, but that gets dropped in the list.
20121007 20:46:17< mattsc> Which is what's going on with hold_left
20121007 20:47:03< mattsc> I got to run right now, I'll look into this later.  Ciao.
20121007 20:51:08< skyfaller> ttyl!
20121007 20:57:02< skyfaller> mattsc: incidentally the function that shows up twice is "retreat_injured_units"
20121007 21:34:48< skyfaller> it looks like we have two functions
20121007 21:34:49< skyfaller> grunt_rush_FLS1:retreat_injured_units_eval()
20121007 21:34:57< skyfaller> and grunt_rush_FLS1:retreat_injured_units_eval_filtered
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20121007 22:10:25< mattsc> skyfaller: yeah, that was easy to take care of (fixed in the latest github version)
20121007 22:11:18< skyfaller> can you tell me what that changed line of code does in plain English?
20121007 22:11:46< mattsc> If the function name ends with _eval, include it in the menu.
20121007 22:12:30< mattsc> Coded as: if the position where _eval appears in the function name equals length of the function name minus 4, then ...
20121007 22:13:33< mattsc> I've come up with a more serious problem in the meantime.  Sometimes CAs set global variables that are then used again by the same CA or a different CA (not just to save time, but, in some cases, to alter the behavior)
20121007 22:14:20< skyfaller> what's the problem with that?
20121007 22:15:09< mattsc> That the debug CA mechanism doesn't work that way.  It has no global environment that lasts past the execution of a single CA.
20121007 22:15:49< mattsc> I'll need to do some experimenting how (and if) that can be set up.
20121007 22:15:59< skyfaller> oh dear, I see
20121007 22:16:34< skyfaller> maybe I should wait to make the rest of my test cases until you've monkeyed with the CA debugger some more ;-)
20121007 22:17:05< mattsc> That might be a good idea ...
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20121007 22:17:23< mattsc> But, if you hadn't set up this one test case, we would have never found these problems!
20121007 22:17:45< skyfaller> ha :)  glad to be of help!
20121007 22:18:40< skyfaller> I'm really looking forward to having a menu option to make the AI play out a turn
20121007 22:19:12< mattsc> I think that's pretty straight-forward.
20121007 22:19:26< mattsc> Of course, if this is from a savegame, you could also simply use that.  :)
20121007 22:20:03< skyfaller> (1) it's from an old savegame, so I can't
20121007 22:20:04< mattsc> And notice that I said "staright-forward", not "quick and easy"  :D
20121007 22:20:22< skyfaller> (2) Even if I could, that wouldn't help me test modern Fred's behavior
20121007 22:20:27< mattsc> on (1): true
20121007 22:21:11< mattsc> (2): mostly true.  (If it used the same CAs, which it does not, it would use modern Fred code for that)
20121007 22:21:11< skyfaller> in this case, I am trying to see if Fred will grab villages if he has units left over after attacking
20121007 22:21:28< mattsc> Right.
20121007 22:21:33< skyfaller> but first he has to get lucky and kill the units he's trying to kill so he'll have units left over for village grabbing
20121007 22:21:59< skyfaller> it would be easier to run this a few times until he gets lucky rather than painstakingly arranging the units just so :P
20121007 22:22:42< skyfaller> I mean, I guess I could just right click to kill the unit after a few attacks
20121007 22:22:47< skyfaller> but you understand what I am saying
20121007 22:23:00< mattsc> Yep.  Well, I'll get on it then.  But it'll probably be 10 minutes here, 7 minutes there, etc. again today, so it will take a little time.
20121007 22:23:32< skyfaller> ok, no prob :) enjoy!
20121007 22:23:45< mattsc> always.  :)
20121007 22:38:32-!- Crendgrim [~crend@xdsl-89-0-41-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20121007 23:31:49< mattsc> skyfaller: I've set up the global environment that holds the persistent information.  It was easier than I had been afraid of.
20121007 23:33:05< mattsc> A minor downside to this is that you have to reset it "manually" at the beginning of the turn, because the CA debugger does not know whether you are simulating a beginning or middle-of-turn move.
20121007 23:34:04< mattsc> This is done by executing the 'reset_vars' CA (just as the AI itself does at the beginning of the turn also).
20121007 23:34:33< mattsc> I am tempted to provide (yet) another CA to do that with a single click ...
20121007 23:41:53-!- mattsc [~mattsc@d154-20-32-241.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: bye]
--- Log closed Mon Oct 08 00:00:18 2012