--- Log opened Fri Oct 12 00:00:17 2012
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20121012 07:48:24< irker120> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16072 /trunk/After_the_Storm/images/units/fairies/ (dryad.png sprite.png fairy.png spirit.png):
20121012 07:48:24< irker120> AtS: updated Faerie Sprite unit tree's baseframes again, this time resembling mainline proportions better
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20121012 08:37:45< irker120> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16073 /trunk/After_the_Storm/images/units/fairies/dryad.png:
20121012 08:37:46< irker120> AtS: stupid pesky lower-left Dryad wing
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20121012 16:56:39< mattsc> skyfaller: around?
20121012 16:56:52< skyfaller> mattsc: hey man, sort of :) what's up?
20121012 16:57:14< skyfaller> looks like you've been busy committing
20121012 16:57:25< mattsc> Yeah.  I'm pretty much done refacturing Fred and doing some improvements along the way.
20121012 16:58:16< skyfaller> sweet
20121012 16:58:19< mattsc> This takes care of some of the weaknesses you list in your post (at least partially)
20121012 16:58:28< skyfaller> alright!
20121012 16:58:42< skyfaller> I assume Fred is "passing" the one test I've completed?
20121012 16:59:15< mattsc> I've actually not run that test specifically yet, but I have put things into the code that _should_ take care of it.
20121012 16:59:20< skyfaller> ok :)
20121012 16:59:37< mattsc> In my opinion, the biggest problems now are attack-related: which units to use, when to poison and not, etc.
20121012 17:00:01< mattsc> And I don't want to work on those under BfW 1.10
20121012 17:00:17< skyfaller> ah, ok :) So are we transitioning to the unstable version then, as I proposed?
20121012 17:00:27< mattsc> Yep
20121012 17:00:32< skyfaller> sweet
20121012 17:00:56< skyfaller> goblins really *should* be recruited at some point... you have to treat them as fragile damage-dealers, kind of like mages
20121012 17:01:48< mattsc> Right - but there is currently no provision in the code to treat the differently from any other unit, so there is no point in specifically recruiting them either
20121012 17:01:57< skyfaller> fair enough
20121012 17:02:38< skyfaller> so what's involved in the transition to unstable?
20121012 17:02:48< mattsc> I am wondering whether you could run a couple tests (even if it's just watching Fred against Ron or RCA) and see if there are any obvious (non-attack-related) weaknesses that I introduced.  Things that are worse than they were before.
20121012 17:03:13< skyfaller> sure, why not
20121012 17:03:17< skyfaller> let me run my one test case first
20121012 17:03:41< mattsc> Makes sense - I was going to do that too, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
20121012 17:04:19< skyfaller> right, my goal in making the test cases is for you to be able to quickly run them yourself to see any obvious regressions :)
20121012 17:04:25< mattsc> If you don't find anything absolutely obvious, I'll make the transition to 1.11.
20121012 17:06:11< skyfaller> mattsc: hm, I am running the "fixed" test case but I am seeing an old version of the right-click menu
20121012 17:06:25< skyfaller> I started it from the terminal in debug mode...
20121012 17:06:58< mattsc> Old as in really old or from the intermediate version?
20121012 17:07:18< mattsc> Let me try ...
20121012 17:07:21< skyfaller> I mean, it doesn't have the "run an AI turn" or choose the next highest CA....
20121012 17:07:29< mattsc> Hmm...
20121012 17:07:48< skyfaller> I'm definitely updated to the latest Github version
20121012 17:10:39< mattsc> skyfaller: I do.  It's not the absolutely last version (as in, it still goes through the 6-turn init), but the options are there.
20121012 17:11:06< mattsc> I used the file from my PM to you, not from your post.  Haven't check if that is the same.
20121012 17:11:09< skyfaller> hm...
20121012 17:11:12< mattsc> checked
20121012 17:11:13< skyfaller> what could I be doing differently?
20121012 17:11:25< mattsc> Using the wrong file?
20121012 17:12:22< skyfaller> I'm certain it is the same file you PM'd to me
20121012 17:13:05< skyfaller> could you be using a different file than the one you PM'd me?
20121012 17:13:31< skyfaller> or could you be using a different version of Fred than the one currently on Github? :P
20121012 17:13:34< mattsc> No, I downloaded it again just to be sure.
20121012 17:14:05< mattsc> No, not that either, and it shouldn't matter for whether you see those options.  That file has those menu options built in.  If you see any, you should see all of them.
20121012 17:14:12< skyfaller> :/
20121012 17:14:20< skyfaller> I don't understand what is happening then
20121012 17:14:29< mattsc> Me neither.
20121012 17:14:42< mattsc> As in, the options are linked to the file, not to the version of Fred.
20121012 17:14:55< mattsc> They might not work if you use the wrong version, but they should be there.
20121012 17:16:29< skyfaller> hey, how do you get the right click menu working?
20121012 17:16:41< skyfaller> I just started a new game in debug mode, and I don't have the right click menu
20121012 17:16:53< skyfaller> I'm using the experimental AI era
20121012 17:16:59< skyfaller> and I'm playing against Fred
20121012 17:17:42< mattsc> you need to set the parameter in eval_exec_CA.lua to true also
20121012 17:17:46< skyfaller> oh right
20121012 17:18:20< mattsc> Here's what I am seeing: http://imagebin.org/231749
20121012 17:18:46< skyfaller> mattsc: ok, that was the problem
20121012 17:19:09< skyfaller> I got a partial right-click menu without the parameter set to "true" though, which is interesting
20121012 17:19:10< mattsc> Btw, there's still a problem with retaking those villages...  I tested it now.
20121012 17:19:59< skyfaller> oh yeah, it's not working right
20121012 17:20:03< mattsc> It should be working (or at least doing something different from what I am seeing), so it's likely a bug.  I'll check it out.
20121012 17:20:08< skyfaller> something happened in the zone control CA
20121012 17:20:20< skyfaller> it said it was executing it but nothing really happened on the left
20121012 17:20:25< skyfaller> it seemed to skip straight to recruiting orcs
20121012 17:20:34< mattsc> yep
20121012 17:20:50< mattsc> looks like a bug rather than a strategy flaw  :)
20121012 17:21:17< skyfaller> hm.... I'm having trouble stepping through the turn
20121012 17:21:27< skyfaller> I ran 
20121012 17:21:34< skyfaller> "find highest scoring CA"
20121012 17:21:53< skyfaller> it said highest scoring is "attack weak enemy"
20121012 17:21:58< skyfaller> and then I tried to evaluate and execute a single CA
20121012 17:22:03< skyfaller> but nothing happened
20121012 17:23:04< skyfaller> ok, I'm going to go eat something, I'll test other Fred behaviors once you get this test case fixed
20121012 17:23:06< mattsc> yeah, crap ...
20121012 17:23:33< mattsc> That might not happen today.
20121012 17:23:39< skyfaller> ok :)
20121012 17:24:15< skyfaller> well, at least I identified some obvious bugs in the current version, like you wanted! :D
20121012 17:24:39< mattsc> indeed.  :)
20121012 17:24:45< skyfaller> bbl
20121012 17:24:49< mattsc> ciao
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20121012 19:01:02< mattsc> skyfaller: I fixed the bug that kept the orcs from grabbing the villages in your test case
20121012 19:01:10< skyfaller> hooray!
20121012 19:01:44< mattsc> You could argue whether retreating the wolf at the end all the way north is the right thing to do.  I think it is given the situation, but claiming that Fred does that intentionally would be giving him too much credit.
20121012 19:02:28< skyfaller> ha
20121012 19:02:30< mattsc> As for the CA debugger: playing a full AI turn works with the test case, running individual CAs does not.
20121012 19:02:38< skyfaller> why is that?
20121012 19:02:53< mattsc> My guess is that it comes from the savefile not being quite up to date.
20121012 19:03:05< skyfaller> ok, so if I make another test case, it should work?
20121012 19:03:06< mattsc> I made some changes to the debugger after I fixed the file.
20121012 19:03:09< skyfaller> I see
20121012 19:03:33< mattsc> So, I'll fix up that file, but it's kind of a pita, so I won't do it right now.
20121012 19:03:52< skyfaller> ok, sounds good
20121012 19:04:04< mattsc> As for other test cases, if you're not in a hurry, I'd wait setting them up.
20121012 19:04:19< skyfaller> ok :)
20121012 19:04:25< skyfaller> what else is changing?
20121012 19:04:45< mattsc> because, on 1.11 (I think) it shouldn't be necessary to use a savefile with the same version of the debugger as current Fred.
20121012 19:04:55< skyfaller> aha :D
20121012 19:05:03< mattsc> But I don't know that for sure, and it's going to take me a little to switch things over.
20121012 19:05:07< skyfaller> ok
20121012 19:05:34< mattsc> Well, switching the debugger over is a bit of work in this case, Fred himself should work as is.
20121012 19:06:15< mattsc> So, anyway, Fred passes the test case now, I think.  It really was a minor bug.
20121012 19:06:33< skyfaller> ok :)
20121012 19:06:59< mattsc> If you have time, you could watch a couple games against RCA or Ron and tell me if there's anything I should fix before moving over to 1.11.
20121012 19:07:20< skyfaller> ok, I will do that
20121012 19:07:21< mattsc> As I said, I won't touch anything that has to do with attacks until after.
20121012 19:07:46< mattsc> It's not worth our time.  :)
20121012 19:08:35< skyfaller> so what am I looking for?
20121012 19:09:22< mattsc> Just anything that might have gotten significantly worse since a previous version.
20121012 19:10:02< mattsc> Anything that's "about the same" is ok, I haven't made any huge changes in behavior (although most anything that is left now is pretty subtle by itself anyway)
20121012 19:10:18< mattsc> But hopefully lots of subtle changes will make a difference in the end.  :)
20121012 19:11:11< mattsc> Also, any update on what the most obvious things to tackle next are would be good (esp. if different from what we've been assuming so far)
20121012 19:27:59< skyfaller> honestly, I'm not sure I'll remember how old Fred played, it's been a while
20121012 19:30:11< skyfaller> mattsc: any chance you could put the debug CA variable at the top of the file if I'm going to have to manually edit it every time?
20121012 19:32:21< skyfaller> yeah, I guess moving the wolf back is a conservative move, it is less likely to result in the death of one of Fred's unit this turn
20121012 19:33:03< skyfaller> it is more likely to result in losing a village, but Fred can trap and melee the unit as night falls... I would just prefer to trap and melee the unit while it is on bad terrain instead of a friendly village
20121012 19:33:33< skyfaller> so I would put units on all of the villages in range of the archer, and put the weak wolf on the village that we can most afford to lose
20121012 19:34:10< skyfaller> which would be the village at 12,5, that the leader can easily reach and that other units can reach without retreating too far from the front
20121012 19:34:43< mattsc> phbt  :P
20121012 19:34:46< mattsc> Done  :)
20121012 19:35:03< skyfaller> lol, you did it? how?
20121012 19:35:10< skyfaller> oh
20121012 19:35:14< skyfaller> the debug variable
20121012 19:35:15< mattsc> the variable at the beginning of the file, I mean
20121012 19:35:15< skyfaller> thanks :)
20121012 19:35:52< skyfaller> alright, I'll watch a game or two now
20121012 19:36:00< mattsc> If you do that, you risk losing the wolf though
20121012 19:36:26< skyfaller> yeah, but with orcs it's more important to hold onto villages
20121012 19:36:42< skyfaller> losing the wolf would hurt, but being behind in income hurts more
20121012 19:36:47< skyfaller> besides, what is the ctk?
20121012 19:37:07< mattsc> I don't know - as I said, checking something like that is giving Fred too much credit.
20121012 19:37:28< skyfaller> fair enough, although it's something he should be checking
20121012 19:37:32< mattsc> He retreats "severely injured" units, if possible out of range of enemies.
20121012 19:37:52< mattsc> which is exactly what he does.
20121012 19:38:17< mattsc> What you suggests makes sense, but it's very much non-trivial to do in a way that works in general.
20121012 19:38:21< skyfaller> true :/
20121012 19:38:31< skyfaller> wait a second
20121012 19:38:42< skyfaller> that wolf isn't that injured
20121012 19:38:52< skyfaller> he's got 15 HP
20121012 19:39:01< mattsc> he <16 HP, which is the current criterion.
20121012 19:39:11< skyfaller> ah, I thought the criteria was lower
20121012 19:39:23< mattsc> hold on ...
20121012 19:39:50< skyfaller> I think Fred needs to take into account how many units would be in range of the threatened unit, and what their ctk would be
20121012 19:39:52< mattsc> you're right.  It's 12...
20121012 19:39:56< skyfaller> aha!
20121012 19:40:17< skyfaller> so even with that naive calculation, he should still be willing to leave the wolf in threatened positions
20121012 19:40:38< mattsc> Not necessarily.  There are a lot of other things going on too.
20121012 19:40:47< mattsc> It's just not exactly what I thought.
20121012 19:41:33< mattsc> But in any case, I don't consider that the biggest problem Fred has at the moment.
20121012 19:41:41< mattsc> I'd rather tackle those first
20121012 19:41:49< skyfaller> oh, I see the problem actually
20121012 19:42:06< skyfaller> the problem is that none of the grunts can reach the forward village
20121012 19:42:13< skyfaller> so my proposed course of action is impossible
20121012 19:42:26< skyfaller> the only thing Fred could do is leave the wolf in the village
20121012 19:43:03< mattsc> But again, that's not a "thought process" the AI is going through
20121012 19:43:06< skyfaller> without meleeing the archer b/c that would increase the likelihood of the wolf dying
20121012 19:43:49< skyfaller> also, there are other suboptimal things about Fred's moves
20121012 19:44:05< skyfaller> I would kill the wolf on the left with my leader
20121012 19:44:24< skyfaller> and put a grunt in the center village that the assassin is threatening
20121012 19:44:47< skyfaller> so that the troll can remain on its beloved mountain
20121012 19:45:32< skyfaller> or alternately, use the grunt on the keep to finish the grunt that is already in a village
20121012 19:45:52< skyfaller> the crossbowman and injured grunt consistently bring that grunt down to one strike without finishing it
20121012 19:46:32< skyfaller> and then I guess put the troll in the village to keep the assassin out
20121012 19:46:49< skyfaller> I dunno, I guess I'm getting too specific
20121012 19:46:55< mattsc> Now tell me all of that in equation using unit stats and positions  :D
20121012 19:47:07< skyfaller> bleh
20121012 19:47:10< skyfaller> it's hard :)
20121012 19:47:27< skyfaller> well, we should be using the leader
20121012 19:47:31< mattsc> Yep.
20121012 19:47:37< skyfaller> the leader should be able to operate safely on the left
20121012 19:47:47< skyfaller> it's a little risky bringing the leader forward to the center
20121012 19:48:01< mattsc> We do use the leader, but only if it's considered safe.  Without looking at the details, my guess is that Fred doesn't think it's 100% safe.
20121012 19:48:05< skyfaller> too many enemy units in range, especially if some shields die
20121012 19:48:16< skyfaller> well, then Fred is being a pussy
20121012 19:48:24< mattsc> shields dying is not considered at all.  That's really hard...
20121012 19:48:38< skyfaller> a crossbowman standing on a mountain should not fear a lone archer
20121012 19:48:39< mattsc> Yep.  We'll call him kitty from now on.
20121012 19:48:47< skyfaller> meow :)
20121012 19:49:10< mattsc> Anyway, dude, I need to do some work.
20121012 19:49:13< skyfaller> and Fred has more than enough units in range to make sure that wolf ends up very dead
20121012 19:49:27< skyfaller> ok
20121012 19:49:53< mattsc> If you could check if there's something really bad (as opposed to sub-optimal), that'd be great.
20121012 19:50:01< skyfaller> I'll watch some battles and stop complaining about Fred's suboptimal moves... as long as he recaptures those villages this turn, he gets a passing grade, even if it's not an A+
20121012 19:50:18< mattsc> :)
20121012 19:50:41< mattsc> Let's concentrate on those things first and when we have the big ticket items fixed, then we'll move on to the sub-optimal stuff.
20121012 19:51:19< skyfaller> ok, I have something very bad
20121012 19:51:37< skyfaller> Fred isn't grabbing a village with his leader on the first turn
20121012 19:51:37< mattsc> A, rats, yes...
20121012 19:51:41< skyfaller> at least, not with the debugging CA's "run ai turn"
20121012 19:51:56< mattsc> No, I'm pretty sure where that's coming from.
20121012 19:52:16< mattsc> * ... pretty sure I know ...
20121012 19:52:43< mattsc> That's something that got lost in the refactoring.  It should be reasonably easy to fix though.  Tonight.
20121012 19:52:53< skyfaller> ok, let me know how that goes ^_^
20121012 19:53:50< mattsc> Don't let that keep you from looking for other disastrous behavior though  :)
20121012 19:53:55< skyfaller> ok, it just got worse
20121012 19:54:36< skyfaller> on turn 3, after executing one hard-coded CA move (put a grunt on the village at 11,9) it just quits and doesn't do anything else
20121012 19:54:57< mattsc> That's because you're doing this in debug mode.
20121012 19:55:14< mattsc> In fact, if you just start a game, the leader captures the village too.
20121012 19:55:18< skyfaller> ok, debug mode doesn't work for multiple turns?
20121012 19:55:19< mattsc> I just tried it.
20121012 19:55:23< skyfaller> or even one turn? :P
20121012 19:55:44< mattsc> It does, but it doesn't do any RCA AI moves, of which I am currently still taking advantage
20121012 19:55:51< skyfaller> ah, ok
20121012 19:55:58< skyfaller> can't we get an option to do the AI moves?
20121012 19:56:07< skyfaller> I mean RCA AI
20121012 19:56:12< mattsc> I'm not sure how at the moment
20121012 19:57:06< mattsc> Btw, if you want to see the messages of which CA is being executed, there's a different way.
20121012 19:57:16< mattsc> If that's why you're doing this in CA debugging mode.
20121012 19:57:30< skyfaller> you mean watch the terminal output?
20121012 19:57:46< mattsc> No, get the on-screen messages
20121012 19:57:58< mattsc> find ai_helper.show_messages() and set that one to true
20121012 19:58:10< skyfaller> what file?
20121012 19:58:23< mattsc> I haven't tested yet whether that works for the zone_control CA though
20121012 19:58:30< mattsc> ai_helper.lua
20121012 19:59:15< mattsc> There's only so much time between 4 and 8 am ...  :)
20121012 19:59:41< mattsc> And I really need to get going now.  I'll (probably) be back online tonight.
20121012 19:59:52< skyfaller> ok, ttfn!
20121012 20:00:13< mattsc> thanks for testing this buggy system.  :)
20121012 20:00:16< mattsc> bye
20121012 20:00:17< skyfaller> np :)
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20121012 22:16:09< mattsc> skyfaller: btw, I assume that you won't like what the wolf and orc on the left are doing if there are no enemies in that area.  I'm aware of that problem (it's the RCA AI again!) and will get to that later.
20121012 22:33:21< skyfaller> I ran a whole game against Fred and nothing completely awful stood out
20121012 22:33:47< skyfaller> Fred failed to deal with me sending a cavalryman into his west, but he's always sucked at dealing with that
20121012 22:38:47< mattsc> Cool!  Thanks for doing that.
20121012 22:40:48< mattsc> skyfaller, Alarantalara: so I am going to wrap up the current version, make a 1.10 branch and release it on both the 1.10 and 1.11 add-ons server.
20121012 22:41:21< mattsc> After that, we'll discontinue development on the 1.10 branch (except maybe for bug fixes).
20121012 22:43:27< skyfaller> sounds good
20121012 22:44:17< skyfaller> I personally would just let 1.10 wither on the vine, how many people have downloaded it?
20121012 22:44:39< skyfaller> probably a small enough number we could personally tell each of them to suck it up and download 1.11
20121012 22:44:58< skyfaller> I don't see why it's worth doing bug fixes, just stop supporting it
20121012 22:46:49< mattsc> AI-Demos is not just Fred & Ron.  There are people who use some of the other AIs for the campaigns, and a lot of them are working in 1.10.
20121012 22:47:20< mattsc> I'd prefer not to entirely abandon those.
20121012 22:47:58< mattsc> * for their campaigns
20121012 22:48:18< skyfaller> fair enough
20121012 22:48:46< skyfaller> how long do you think it'll be until 1.12 is released?
20121012 22:49:19< mattsc> And if we find something that actually crashes Fred/Ron, it would probably be nice of us to fix that.  But we'll deal with that on a case by case basis
20121012 22:49:44< mattsc> No idea.  A year (+/- 2 years)  :)
20121012 22:49:54< skyfaller> heh :)
--- Log closed Sat Oct 13 00:00:43 2012