--- Log opened Mon Oct 29 00:00:20 2012
20121029 00:20:10-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth
20121029 00:20:10-!- Topic for #wesnoth: Wesnoth User Channel | http://www.wesnoth.org/ | Social channel: #wesnoth-offtopic | Latest stable version: 1.10.4 | Latest development version: 1.11.0 | Public IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20121029 00:20:10-!- Topic set by shadowm [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] [Wed Sep 19 04:30:51 2012]
20121029 00:20:11[Users #wesnoth]
20121029 00:20:11[ [Relic]        ] [ Elvish_Pillager] [ knotwork    ] [ prkc          ] 
20121029 00:20:11[ Akihara        ] [ Espreon        ] [ lobby       ] [ Rhonda        ] 
20121029 00:20:11[ apoi           ] [ fendrin_       ] [ loonycyborg ] [ Samual        ] 
20121029 00:20:11[ Appleman1234   ] [ Forty-3        ] [ MadMerlin   ] [ shadowm       ] 
20121029 00:20:11[ blarumyrran    ] [ Gallaecio      ] [ matthiaskrgr] [ shadowm_laptop] 
20121029 00:20:11[ Blueblaze      ] [ Gambit         ] [ melinath    ] [ Smar          ] 
20121029 00:20:11[ celticminstrel ] [ hagabaka       ] [ Muad_Dibber ] [ Soliton       ] 
20121029 00:20:11[ cjhopman       ] [ happygrue      ] [ namad7      ] [ ToBeFree      ] 
20121029 00:20:11[ Cookie         ] [ hulavuta       ] [ Narrat      ] [ vultraz       ] 
20121029 00:20:11[ crimson_penguin] [ Ivanovic       ] [ Necrosporus ] [ wesbot        ] 
20121029 00:20:11[ cyphase        ] [ iwaim_         ] [ NightWolf-  ] [ Xjs|moonshine ] 
20121029 00:20:11[ deepy          ] [ janebot        ] [ noy         ] 
20121029 00:20:11[ elias          ] [ justinzane     ] [ PolarPanda  ] 
20121029 00:20:11-!- Irssi: #wesnoth: Total of 50 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 50 normal]
20121029 00:20:11-!- Home page for #wesnoth: http://www.wesnoth.org
20121029 00:20:15-!- Channel #wesnoth created Sun Nov 26 07:42:43 2006
20121029 00:21:36-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth was synced in 93 secs
20121029 00:22:35< fendrin_> Forty-3: Wesnoth.org is up again.
20121029 00:22:41< Forty-3> :D
20121029 00:22:51< Forty-3> the hamster is back
20121029 00:23:08< shadowm> No, we had to put the vet to run the wheel instead of the hamster.
20121029 00:25:16< Forty-3> heh
20121029 00:25:31< Forty-3> will teh hamster make it?
20121029 00:25:34< Forty-3> *he
20121029 00:25:40< shadowm> No.
20121029 00:36:22< justinzane> Will there be an undead hamster soon?
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20121029 00:41:01< justinzane> My <limited> impression of WML is that there is generally a tree structure of game data. root=Wesnoth,l1={trunk,1,10,1.9,...},l2={single,multiplayer},l3={core,campaigns,addons}
20121029 00:41:18< justinzane> That is of course, oversimplified and wrong.
20121029 00:42:23< justinzane> But, the end point being that most of WML is either simple nested tag/value markup or references to other markup.
20121029 00:42:35< fendrin_> justinzane: No, it's exactly like you describe it. The macro system reads everything into a single glob which has a single root.
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20121029 00:43:45< shadowm> The preprocessor handles WML preprocessor directives (including brace substitutions) and returns a stream that can be parsed by the WML parser. It doesn't know anything about the WML hierarchy and in fact could be used for non-WML content too.
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20121029 00:44:10< justinzane> That being the case, a document oriented database like many of the NoSQL options in the wild allows easy reference to other objects without forcing everything into some sort of predefined record schema.
20121029 00:49:07< justinzane> One of the big wins, as I see it is limiting the re-reading and re-transmitting of redundant markup. If, for example, the developer of SojourningsofGrog were to fix a couple lines in one scenario, with the NoSQL approach, my Wesnoth executable could ping addons.wesnoth.org for an update, recieve the single "document" and move on. This saves the Skeletal Hamster from having to send an entire 2.34MB gzipped file. Could probably even downsize to a re-
20121029 00:49:09< justinzane> animated cockroach. :)
20121029 00:51:18< justinzane> The other advantage is that the game client can perform smaller and faster reads/writes to load and store in-game data since there is no need to persist the entire WML stream on manual or auto-save.
20121029 00:52:45< justinzane> Though I've got not clue about how multiplayer works, the optimizations provided by cloud-oriented storage engines might enable performance gains. But that it is total baseless conjecture.
20121029 00:54:29< justinzane> shadowm: May I ask why were preprocessor directives ( '#directive/{SUBSTITUTION}') chosen over tag/attribute markup?
20121029 00:55:28< shadowm> I am not the person who originally introduced the preprocessor unit, but what do you mean "over tag/attribute markup"? WML nodes and attributes are extremely important all the time, and the WML preprocessor would be absolutely useless without them.
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20121029 01:00:13< justinzane> No, not suggesting that WML is not important. Rather, wondering why not use tags like [_if_]'something'='defined'[_then_]'do'='stuff'[/_then][/_if_]
20121029 01:01:37< shadowm> Probably because as you put it it introduces a lot of cognitive ambiguity while looking ugly.
20121029 01:01:59< justinzane> The use of two different forms of textual encoding schemes in one document makes parsing vastly harder (outside the game engine) and makes readability for novice WML editors lower.
20121029 01:02:33< justinzane> Please insert the line breaks like this:
20121029 01:03:19< justinzane> [_if_] # _ is optional, but to highlight the fact that it is a language builtin. Kinda like python.
20121029 01:03:25< shadowm> The problem is that it's not optimal but it isn't broken either.
20121029 01:03:51< shadowm> A great amount of effort has been invested in making the WML preprocessor useful and that's not going to be dropped any time soon.
20121029 01:03:52< justinzane>     'something'='defined' # could also use == here
20121029 01:04:26< shadowm> I personally find it better than e.g. the C preprocessor, which is probably whence it took some inspiration.
20121029 01:05:33< justinzane> I'm not suggesting that anyone run out and drop it. Wesnoth is great. I just find that the verbosity and redundancy of WML has been a barrier to my attempts to create content for the game. 
20121029 01:06:11< justinzane> I've even gotten annoyed trying to make simple changes to units to see how the balance is affected.
20121029 01:06:15< shadowm> I think an entry barrier is necessary to prevent a flood of pointless crap.
20121029 01:06:31< shadowm> Such as a hundred different elvish faction recolors.
20121029 01:08:49< justinzane> Right, but wouldn't it be good to let people easily start messing around on their own boxes. There might be some awesome dungeonmaster style storytellers out there who could have written wonderful scenarios but who gave up looking through thousand line scenarios.
20121029 01:10:17< shadowm> First of all, thousand line scenarios are not too common and they are not necessarily interesting or useful sources for learning.
20121029 01:11:09< shadowm> Second, storytelling skill alone is not enough to make a worthwhile campaign. People should either learn to program or use a set of generic templates written by someone else and produce decidedly unoriginal content from it.
20121029 01:11:35< shadowm> Your solution is not going to eliminate the need for programming skills.
20121029 01:12:41< justinzane> To me, the barrier to entry would come from the fact that since the markup live in a network-based storage engine on every client machine, a prospective uploader would have had to privately shared their addon with X other players who would vouch for the novelty and quality of the code before it would be accepted to addons.wesnoth.org
20121029 01:13:19< shadowm> Excuse me, what's this "network-based storage engine on every client machine" thing?
20121029 01:13:38< justinzane> I'm not trying to pick fights. I'm just learning through dialog here. Thanks for your insight, shadowm
20121029 01:13:54< shadowm> Okay.
20121029 01:18:11< justinzane> My though is that the game install would require an embedded or similar NoSQL db. I've not thought this through in detail, but mongodb weight in at only ~4MB not a huge requirement for any x86 environment, though it might be problematic for ARM clients. Since just about everything of this type that I've investigated is developed with an eye towards wide horizontal scalability, they all are based on sockets for IO. 
20121029 01:19:24< justinzane> That being the case, it is realitevely easy to configure the db to use something besides 127.0.0.1 and forward appropriate gateway ports for a user who wants to share his creations with his friends.
20121029 01:20:54< justinzane> With mongo, there are C,C++,Python,Javascript,etc. APIs. That means that is should be wasy to hook it into the existing WML parser process to hack on it in a dev fork.
20121029 01:26:02< justinzane> As far as eliminating the need for progrmming skills, no, this won't eliminate it. My feeling is that it often works better of there is a division of humanity into the following: {Serious Developers : the kind who write the core C/C++ game code, Lightweight Developers : (Me) the kind who prefer Python/Perl/Node.js, Creators : the kind who prefer GIMP or KATE to draw and write, Everyone Else}
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20121029 01:28:46< justinzane> As a parallel, I'm seeing a lot of development moving away from XML based data encoding for web services to JSON. JSON is much lighter, simpler and easier, though it is generally less powerful that the full suite of XML/XSLT/Xetc. tools.
20121029 01:30:04< shadowm> So where would I fall seeing as how I am a C++ coder who uses Kate and feels more comfortable using Perl or Python for common tasks, writes WML, web pages, and uses the GIMP to create pixel art?
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20121029 01:48:28< justinzane> shadowm: Remember maslow's hierarchy... Self-actualized?
20121029 01:49:39< Espreon> Blargh.
20121029 01:50:09< justinzane> Pirate? Aye, matey?
20121029 01:50:23< Espreon> ... No.
20121029 01:51:55< justinzane> I just cloned the repo a couple of days ago and have not looked at it in detail. Is the preprocessor and WML parser code pretty self-evident?  I'd love to look to see how it is properly done now.
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20121029 02:25:00< shadowm> No, I don't remember anyone by the name of Maslow.
20121029 02:27:32< shadowm> Ah, psychology. Not interested.
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20121029 03:43:16< justinzane> shadowm: For some reason, my 12th grade english teacher was obsessed with the concept. Got at least half a grade higher on any paper for somehow tying in the pyramid of human needs. Food/water, shelter, x86, DRAM, sex, IP connectivity, something like that...
20121029 03:47:22< Gambit> lolwat
20121029 03:47:47< Gambit> IP connectivity less important than sex?
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20121029 03:49:09< Gambit> The barrier to entry on modding Wesnoth is ridiculously low.
20121029 03:49:24< Gambit> Lower than any other game I've ever come across.
20121029 03:49:35< Gambit> The problem is people expect to be painting the Mona Lisa on day one.
20121029 03:59:09< justinzane> Gambit: probably right, I'm too lazy/impatient :(
20121029 04:00:50< Espreon> And I'm too much of a perfectionist.
20121029 04:04:03< justinzane> Somehow I always do better with functional shit than with aesthetic stuff.
20121029 04:04:26< Espreon> Functional shit doesn't really get you anywhere here.
20121029 04:04:33< Espreon> Only æsthetic shit.
20121029 04:04:36< Espreon> Sorry.
20121029 04:04:51< Gambit> Espreon: you're drunk, go home
20121029 04:05:08< Gambit> they mean functional as in not markup
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20121029 04:06:08 * celticminstrel wonders why æ instead of ae.
20121029 04:06:08< Gambit> justinzane: they're not really functions, but as far as reduction of duplication goes, you should look into macros.
20121029 04:06:15< Gambit> Also we have a lua interpreter
20121029 04:06:23< Gambit> Though lua is the devil's music
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20121029 04:07:23< celticminstrel> Lua's okay.
20121029 04:07:33< Gambit> THE DEVIL I SAY
20121029 04:07:44< celticminstrel> :P
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20121029 10:34:56< igorko> Espreon: ping
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20121029 17:12:43< Espreon> igorko: pong
20121029 17:14:21< igorko> I'm finishing translation updates to trunk (i guess should be done tomorrow). Make sure this time you will commit them ONLY to trunk ;)
20121029 17:14:31< Espreon> Oh, all right.
20121029 17:14:35< Espreon> Just for you.
20121029 17:14:48< Espreon> Do note that I might not have Internet access tomorrow because of the storm.
20121029 17:14:56< igorko> ok
20121029 17:15:08< Espreon> ... so... send to Ivanovic too.
20121029 17:15:25< Espreon> Yar.
20121029 17:15:28< igorko> we'll see...
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20121029 18:55:07< Unnheulu> If I set first_senario to 01_Siege, and have that as the id in a scenario file, why does it say Can't find scenario 01_Siege?
20121029 18:55:43< Unnheulu> I've checked the the {~add-ons} points to the right directory
20121029 18:56:50< lipkab> Unnheulu: A thousand things can trigger that message.
20121029 18:57:07< Unnheulu> So it isn't simply having the incorrect id?
20121029 18:57:24< lipkab> Not necessarily.
20121029 18:57:37< Unnheulu> Oh, what else can cause that?
20121029 18:58:10< Unnheulu> The textdomain is the same
20121029 18:58:29< lipkab> A classical error is the unclosed quoted string.
20121029 18:59:00< Unnheulu> In the _main.cfg?
20121029 18:59:04 * Unnheulu goes digging
20121029 18:59:41< lipkab> Maybe it's quicker to just upload the whole thing to pastebin.
20121029 19:00:11< Unnheulu> _main.cfg or 01_Siege.cfg?
20121029 19:00:18< lipkab> Both.
20121029 19:00:26< Unnheulu> It's pretty much A Simple Campaign at the moment, with just a few words changed
20121029 19:00:48< lipkab> Don't worry about that. Just upload it.
20121029 19:00:52< Unnheulu> http://pastebin.com/USteE5wB
20121029 19:00:55< Unnheulu> Ok, thanks :)
20121029 19:01:23< Unnheulu> http://pastebin.com/Wpigkq4X
20121029 19:01:33< Unnheulu> It's been ages since I last tried using wml...
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20121029 19:03:36< lipkab> Argh, what happened to my clipboard?!
20121029 19:03:56< Unnheulu> ;)
20121029 19:10:13< lipkab> Unnheulu: The first_scenario= key in _main.cfg points to 01_Template...
20121029 19:10:17< Unnheulu> Oh
20121029 19:10:22< Unnheulu> It was pointing at 01_Siege
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20121029 19:10:36< Unnheulu> I just wanted to see if pointing it at the old id of the first scenario made a difference
20121029 19:11:38< lipkab> Ah. Indeed, it's still broken with 01_Siege.
20121029 19:13:02< lipkab> Unnheulu: I got it. The define= value doesn't match the argument of the #ifdef directive.
20121029 19:13:34< lipkab> That means that nothing of the stuff between #ifdef and #endif will be parsed.
20121029 19:14:58< Unnheulu> Oh, I see
20121029 19:15:01< Unnheulu> Thanks a lot :)
20121029 19:15:24< Unnheulu> In future I should just spell stuff normally so I can't make mistakes like that, probably...
20121029 19:15:42< Unnheulu> Yep, that works, thanks!
20121029 19:15:47< lipkab> No problem.
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 30 00:00:01 2012