--- Log opened Sat Nov 03 00:00:08 2012
--- Day changed Sat Nov 03 2012
20121103 00:00:06< Alarantalara> which looks silly
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20121103 00:01:46< skyfaller> hm....
20121103 00:01:53< skyfaller> then we must be able to program this smarter
20121103 00:03:45< Alarantalara> There's a few other things wrong with it. For instance, on siege castles, because it moves the leader before other units right now, it moves the leader, recruits, then moves the units that were blocking recruiting on the keep it started in
20121103 00:04:30< Alarantalara> This only starts after it can't fill both keeps
20121103 00:04:40< Alarantalara> And at least it fills them properly at the start now
20121103 00:06:31< Alarantalara> Fortunately this is fixable by moving the leader last as with what mattsc did with Fred
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20121103 00:09:13< Alarantalara> That might have to wait until leader attacking is included, though
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20121103 01:42:48< skyfaller> mattsc: what are we working on now? When will Fred be ready for more test cases?
20121103 01:43:20< skyfaller> more importantly, what can I do to help?
20121103 01:47:34< mattsc> skyfaller: still working on getting all of Fred's functions to do the right thing.
20121103 01:51:03< mattsc> The whole combinatorics things is for that, to be able to get sufficiently correct battle outcomes quickly enough.
20121103 01:52:01< mattsc> Until that is done, there isn't much point of testing.  However, the testing mechanism is in place, so you should be able to set up test cases right now, if you want.
20121103 01:53:00< mattsc> Other than that, I'd say understanding the code and telling me why it's nonsense to do it that way would be good.  :)
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20121103 02:10:16< skyfaller> mattsc: how close are the combinatorics to being done? do you think they will work?
20121103 02:10:30< skyfaller> what are we going to do about edge cases like drain and bezerk?
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20121103 02:18:13< mattsc> skyfaller: the maths is done, but the code needs a lot of work.  Yes.  Nothing for the time being.
20121103 02:18:40< skyfaller> but we can handle silly numbers of strikes like 5 strikes?
20121103 02:18:51< mattsc> Yes, no problem.
20121103 02:18:56< skyfaller> lvl 2 or 3 naga has an absurd number of strikes IIRC
20121103 02:19:13< skyfaller> and there's the cuttlefish
20121103 02:19:19< skyfaller> with like 8 strikes
20121103 02:19:38< skyfaller> ... although I guess we aren't handling the thing where its damage is reduced when it loses HP
20121103 02:19:52< skyfaller> I forgot what that was called
20121103 02:19:53< skyfaller> swarm?
20121103 02:20:16< mattsc> Yep, it's swarm.
20121103 02:20:25< mattsc> No, can't do that yet.
20121103 02:20:37< mattsc> Btw, that would be something you could do that would be _really_ helpful.
20121103 02:20:47< skyfaller> what?
20121103 02:20:55< mattsc> Figuring out a way how to deal with cases like that.  In theory, I mean.  I can do the coding.
20121103 02:20:58< mattsc> afk for 10 min
20121103 02:22:13< skyfaller> mattsc: you mean swarm, or 8 strikes?
20121103 02:39:12< mattsc> I mean anything where the conditions might change: swarm, drain, slow, berserk ...
20121103 02:39:24< mattsc> My code can deal with 8 strikes if there's nothing else going on.
20121103 02:40:04< mattsc> skyfaller: do you want me to summarize quickly why I am doing this?  Or is that obvious?
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20121103 02:53:26< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16141 /trunk/After_the_Storm/ (units/shaxthal.cfg changelog):
20121103 02:53:27< irker738> AtS: reduce Shaxthal elusivefoot defense on Deep Water from 20% to 10%
20121103 02:53:27< irker738> Affected units: Shaxthal Rayblade, Shaxthal Stormblade, Elyssa
20121103 02:53:45< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16142 /trunk/After_the_Storm/about.cfg:
20121103 02:53:46< irker738> AtS: update music credits
20121103 02:57:08< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16143 /trunk/After_the_Storm/ (15 files in 6 dirs):
20121103 02:57:08< irker738> AtS: umcpropfix pass
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20121103 04:09:41< skyfaller> mattsc: please summarize, you can assume that nothing is obvious :)
20121103 04:10:33< skyfaller> frankly I doubt my ability to solve swarm, drain, slow, beserk with combinatorics, b/c I barely understand the math for the easy cases where nothing can die
20121103 04:11:08< skyfaller> it might be easier once we have working code that I can tweak
20121103 04:11:53< mattsc> skyfaller: I think we don't want to solve them (it's too hard and probably not efficient).  What we want are approximation that work well enough for our purposes.
20121103 04:12:39< mattsc> Something like: if a unit has drain, the reducing the other units damage by ... x HP gives us roughly the correct result.  Also because:
20121103 04:13:09< mattsc> So this is the beginning of the summary: Wesnoth Lua has a function that does all of this in an exact wya.
20121103 04:13:53< mattsc> You give it 2 units and it calculates the exact battle outcome.  The problem with this one is, it is "slow".
20121103 04:14:33< mattsc> "slow" in "" because it isn't slow if you just want one calculation, or 1,000, but if you want tens or hundreds of thousands, it takes some time.
20121103 04:15:00< mattsc> Now, the things that take a lot of time are attack combinations and counter attacks calcs.
20121103 04:15:45< mattsc> In both cases, you need to calculate several attack outcomes based on every possible previous outcome or situation.  So that's when we need quicker, approximate methods.
20121103 04:16:58< mattsc> skyfaller: That's it, pretty much, in a nutshell.
20121103 04:17:42< skyfaller> ok
20121103 04:18:07< skyfaller> so for slow, you deal half damage once you get hit with slow
20121103 04:18:24< skyfaller> if you had 0% defense, you could just assume half damage
20121103 04:19:18< skyfaller> starting after your first strike, I guess
20121103 04:19:42< skyfaller> so it would appear that you have to calculate the likelihood of getting hit with slow?
20121103 04:20:45< skyfaller> so maybe calculate the odds of getting hit once with slow, which depends on your defense and how many strikes the slow-ing enemy has
20121103 04:21:33< skyfaller> ... blergh
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20121103 04:21:41< skyfaller> I can't figure out how to write the expression
20121103 04:22:17< mattsc> That's ok.  What you write there makes sense and is pretty much what I had imagined.
20121103 04:23:17< mattsc> I bet between the 3 of us, we can figure out the equations.  And there's no rush.  I'm not anywhere close to being able to do something about this yet.
20121103 04:23:22< skyfaller> ok :)
20121103 04:23:28< skyfaller> what are you working on now? cleaning up the code?
20121103 04:24:07< mattsc> Well, that's next on the list.  (I haven't had a chance to work on this since I posted those results.)
20121103 04:24:47< mattsc> But I also need to add the HP distribution for the attacker, and deal with cases when attacker and defender don't have the same number of strikes.
20121103 04:25:34< mattsc> And then I need to write something that gives the single-strike damage at the given TOD against the resistances of the enemy etc.
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20121103 04:26:04< mattsc> All of that is comparatively easy, but it does take a bit of time.
20121103 04:26:10< skyfaller> I think swarm is on the same difficulty level as drain and bezerk, I can't imagine what the math looks like
20121103 04:26:52< mattsc> Some sort of reduced average damage based on the expected damage.
20121103 04:27:27< mattsc> Then I need to implement all of that into the attack combination calculation.
20121103 04:27:51< mattsc> And after that it's back to actually trying to make Fred fight better.  All of this are just the tools we need for that.  :P
20121103 04:28:32< skyfaller> ok :)
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20121103 15:47:42< irker350> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r16144 /trunk/Tales_of_the_Setting_Sun/ (13 files in 7 dirs):
20121103 15:47:42< irker350> added some images and unit.cfg from BMR.  I will remove them to a resources add-on later, so they are not duplicated, but not now.
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20121103 16:20:29< happygrue> just getting back into this after a long break - I'm confused as to why addons don't have a changelog file?  Is it all done via teh revisions?
20121103 16:49:41< AI0867> some do
20121103 16:50:11< AI0867> most add-on authors aren't software developers though, and don't even know the concept of a changelog
20121103 16:53:10< happygrue> ah, okay
20121103 18:12:36< irker350> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r8b192e7 / lua/generic-rush_engine.lua : Only capture villages when they do not slow down getting to the next castle - http://git.io/yzy_1g
20121103 18:13:54< Alarantalara> skyfaller: if you want to see what the difference is, have Ron play side 2 in Sablestone Delta before and after
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20121103 19:06:20-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: +shikadibot
20121103 19:32:55< irker350> AI-Demos: mattsc master * rb3277a4 / lua/battle_calcs.lua : New function library lua/battle_calcs.lua - http://git.io/-MwZXw
20121103 19:34:02< mattsc> skyfaller, Alarantalara: there ^ it is.  Well the beginning of it, at least.  I have no idea if this will make sense to anybody else.
20121103 19:34:44< mattsc> Also, if you find that I am doing something in an unnecessarily complicated way, please let me know.
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20121103 20:22:27< Alarantalara> mattsc: http://pastebin.com/r2zas5WJ
20121103 20:22:51< Alarantalara> It adds an optional first argument to simulate_combat to name the turn
20121103 20:23:41< Alarantalara> It works properly in the tests I've run, but I'm not sure if I should commit it or add it as a patch for Crab_ to check over first
20121103 20:24:37< Alarantalara> Therefore I thought I should at least start by seeing if the new form of the API is good in your eyes
20121103 21:09:20< irker350> wesnoth-umc-dev: happygrue * r16146 /trunk/Era_Khalifate/ (_main.cfg units/Falcon.cfg units/Elder_Falcon.cfg):
20121103 21:09:20< irker350> Changed lightfly movetype as well (forgot before).
20121103 21:09:22< irker350> wesnoth-umc-dev: happygrue * r16145 /trunk/Era_Khalifate/ (25 files in 2 dirs):
20121103 21:09:22< irker350> Added "KE_" prefix to all movetypes to avoid conflicts with older Khalifate units in other addons.
20121103 21:16:08< irker350> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r1e75aa3 / lua/generic-rush_engine.lua : Correct wording mistake in comment - http://git.io/2fAK-w
20121103 21:32:55< mattsc> Alarantalara: that sounds great - but given that I can barely work my way through C++ code, I'm not sure what exactly you want me to check
20121103 21:34:04< Alarantalara> Mostly just the new form of the Lua call simulate_combat(turn (optional), attacker, weapon (optional), defender, weapon (optional))
20121103 21:35:19< Alarantalara> If you want to try it out, copy the pastebin text into a file and run "patch -p0 < filename" while at the root of the wesnoth checkout
20121103 21:35:20< mattsc> Yeah, I think that's fine.  I guess because of the optional second weapon at the end, it's best that way.
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20121103 21:36:12< Alarantalara> Yeah. I thought of putting it at the end, but then you would have had to specify the defender's weapon to use a specific turn
20121103 21:37:09< Alarantalara> Though if I'd changed it so that using 0 or −1 meant any weapon, then that would be usable
20121103 21:37:57< mattsc> It would be, but I think it makes sense to keep it the way you suggest.
20121103 21:38:20< mattsc> The other option would be to pass all the extra parameters (the two weapons and the turn) in a table.
20121103 21:38:32< mattsc> Especially if we are expecting to add more parameters later
20121103 21:39:36< mattsc> Btw: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML:Units#wesnoth.simulate_combat
20121103 21:40:37< Alarantalara> Yes, I'll update that if this gets committed
20121103 21:40:44< mattsc> I never knew that you can pass the defender weapon number.  There's a slight hint at that by "integers" being plural, but I always figured that was a typo
20121103 21:41:06< mattsc> Sorry, I'm too slow.  I wasn't talking about your change
20121103 21:41:30< Alarantalara> ah
20121103 21:41:49< mattsc> Even without your change, it's incomplete.  :)
20121103 21:42:07< mattsc> So I already learned something through this.  I'll change the wiki.
20121103 21:42:14< irker350> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16147 /trunk/After_the_Storm/base-variables.cfg:
20121103 21:42:15< irker350> AtS: eliminate a "tag stack nonempty" warning from wmllint
20121103 21:43:48< mattsc> Alarantalara: so, I guess I'm in slight favour of using a table to pass those three parameters, but what you currently have is a very close second.
20121103 21:44:47< mattsc> Definitely ahead of having to specify the defender weapon every time I want to set the turn (even if -1 is an option)
20121103 21:45:31< Alarantalara> I can do that. I'll have to learn a bit more about the Lua API first, but that shouldn't be a problem
20121103 21:46:18< mattsc> If it's more work than it's worth, don't worry about it.
20121103 21:46:47< mattsc> I guess one problem with that would be that it breaks backward compatibility.
20121103 21:47:39< Alarantalara> Well, the C++ code allows you to chain results by taking the result of one combat and feeding it to the next as well. If I want to add that later, I'd think tables would become essential.
20121103 21:48:16< mattsc> Oh, that would be nice!
20121103 21:48:51< Alarantalara> That way you can call simulate combat on the results of a simulated combat
20121103 21:50:10< mattsc> That would make attack combination outcome calculations much easier!
20121103 21:50:57< mattsc> I think I'd still need a faster method for some of the stuff we're doing for Fred, but in situations where there aren't so many combinations, it would make the coding significantly easier.
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20121103 22:02:17< Alarantalara> I just looked over it again and it's a bit limited, since it only handles the defender having been in a previous combat, so you won't get the ability to just swap the attacker and defender and run it again
20121103 22:02:46< Alarantalara> But for multiple attackers on one defender and looking for counter-attacks by other units, it's covered
20121103 22:06:34< mattsc> Ok.  Sounds good.
20121103 22:08:18< irker350> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16148 /trunk/Invasion_from_the_Unknown/ (changelog units/faeries.cfg units/faeries/Dryad.cfg):
20121103 22:08:18< irker350> IftU: balancing changes for the Sprite line
20121103 22:08:19< irker350> (r14897 in AtS.)
20121103 22:08:19< irker350> * Increased Sprite's impact resistance from -20% to 0%
20121103 22:08:20< irker350> * Increased Fire Faerie's impact resistance from -20% to 0%
20121103 22:08:20< irker350> * Increased Dryad's impact resistance from -10% to 0%
20121103 22:13:32< irker350> AI-Demos: mattsc master * rab1f248 / lua/battle_calcs.lua : battle_calcs.battle_outcome_coefficients: return coefficients for attacker and defender - http://git.io/_4YSTg
20121103 22:17:07< irker350> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16149 /trunk/Invasion_from_the_Unknown/ (7 files in 3 dirs):
20121103 22:17:07< irker350> IftU: new baseframes for the Faerie Sprite unit line
20121103 22:17:08< irker350> (r15973, r15975, r16040, r16072, r16073 in AtS.)
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20121103 23:58:25< SeattleDad> Hi Alarantalara and mattsc
20121103 23:59:26< mattsc> Hi SeattleDad 
--- Log closed Sun Nov 04 00:00:16 2012