--- Log opened Thu Nov 22 00:00:11 2012
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20121122 01:07:55< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r16210 /trunk/Archaic_Era/ (6 files in 2 dirs): 
20121122 01:07:56< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: Ukian Subcommander anim update
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20121122 02:28:02< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16211 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/lua: 
20121122 02:28:02< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: update 11/21/12
20121122 02:29:38< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16212 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/ (9 files in 2 dirs): 
20121122 02:29:38< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: Update 11/21/12
20121122 02:30:14< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16213 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/_main.cfg: 
20121122 02:30:14< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: update 11/21/12
20121122 02:30:39< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16214 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/_main.cfg: 
20121122 02:30:39< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: update 11/21/12
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20121122 02:31:46< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16215 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/utils/unit_abilities: 
20121122 02:31:47< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: update 11/21/12
20121122 02:32:19< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16216 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/utils/ (5 files in 2 dirs): 
20121122 02:32:19< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: update 11/21/12
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20121122 03:09:36< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r16217 /trunk/Archaic_Era/ (4 files in 2 dirs): 
20121122 03:09:37< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: updated the Royal/Northern Ranger description (no longer 'unphased by the cold'), defense animation, and movetype
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20121122 04:22:58< AI0867> mattsc: you may note that the name of the RCA AI is internally the "testing AI"
20121122 04:23:15< AI0867> that's because the idea was originally that it could be forked internally and improved
20121122 04:23:25< AI0867> so we'd have a "stable AI" and a "testing AI"
20121122 04:24:03< AI0867> currently, I think we should declare the RCA AI the "stable AI" and import ron as the the "testing AI" the moment you think it's stabilized to some degree
20121122 04:24:31< mattsc> AI0867: I have seen that when (inexpertly) going through the source code
20121122 04:25:23< mattsc> When I put it onto the AiWML wiki page, I wrote this:
20121122 04:25:25< mattsc> "The default AI used through Wesnoth 1.8 was named 'Default AI' (note the capital D). This might cause confusion, as the current default AI (RCA AI) is not the Default AI. "
20121122 04:26:06< mattsc> This is one of the notes to a longer explanation.  Should I amend that somehow?
20121122 04:27:32< AI0867> maybe
20121122 04:27:36< AI0867> the idea in itself 
20121122 04:27:39< AI0867> is confusing
20121122 04:27:46< mattsc> yeah
20121122 04:27:48< AI0867> so I'm not sure what would make it better
20121122 04:28:33< mattsc> I like the idea of declaring the RCA AI the current stable version.
20121122 04:31:33< mattsc> The interesting bit is that in data/ai/aliases/ both dev_singleplayer.cfg and stable_singleplayer.cfg link to the same file.
20121122 04:33:57< mattsc> As for adding Ron (and/or later Fred) as development version, I'd really have to rely on you developers to tell me how advanced/stable something like that should be.
20121122 04:34:58< AI0867> 04:28 < mattsc> I like the idea of declaring the RCA AI the current stable version. <-- GSAP
20121122 04:35:41< mattsc> gsap?
20121122 04:39:24< mattsc> AI0867: sorry, I am too dense to follow atm
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20121122 04:56:59< Alarantalara> 250 game interim stats. Note that some matchups have too few games to really say anything at this point: http://pastebin.com/Yc2fE8T8
20121122 04:57:55< mattsc> Alarantalara: sweet!
20121122 04:59:01< mattsc> Do you know what gsap means?  Am I just too stupid to get it?
20121122 04:59:11< AI0867> go submit a patch
20121122 04:59:28< mattsc> Oh.  D'oh...
20121122 05:00:06< AI0867> and I'm off
20121122 05:00:20< mattsc> night
20121122 05:00:38< Alarantalara> From what I see of the recruitment stats, I'd like to recruit more Grunts, Saurian Skirmishers, Thunderers!, Woses, and Fencers
20121122 05:00:57< Alarantalara> And less orcish archers
20121122 05:01:17< Alarantalara> They seem to have replaced Grunts in Ron's mind
20121122 05:01:48< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r16218 /trunk/Archaic_Era/ (7 files in 2 dirs): 
20121122 05:01:48< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: updated the Ukian Veteran unit.  Also, updated Raenna's animation, ... I think it should be moved to BMR, is there a reason it is here?
20121122 05:01:54< mattsc> Hmm.  So what do you need to tweak to accomplish that?
20121122 05:01:57< skyfaller> archers are like the only unit that has been buffed recently
20121122 05:02:13< skyfaller> intelligent archers are actually really useful against anything with pierce or fire vulnerability
20121122 05:02:24< skyfaller> they level into crossbowmen at the drop of a hat
20121122 05:02:29< Alarantalara> For fencers and skirmishers, just giving a bonus for the skirmish ability should be enough
20121122 05:02:56< skyfaller> the main problem with archers is they can't tank like grunts can
20121122 05:06:16< skyfaller> in the current game, don't underestimate orc archers
20121122 05:06:46< Alarantalara> Thunderers are the bigget problem, since Ron currently never recruits them. Part of it is just that poachers look like such a good deal when they're faster and cheaper
20121122 05:07:28< skyfaller> I guess you need to give Thunderers a bonus against pierce-vulnerable units?
20121122 05:07:40< Alarantalara> That would boost poachers too
20121122 05:07:58< skyfaller> poachers don't really get much of an advantage from pierce vulnerability
20121122 05:08:24< skyfaller> while thunderers can cut horses and drakes in half with a single shot
20121122 05:08:48< skyfaller> you want thunderers against pierce-vulnerable units with low dodge
20121122 05:08:55< Alarantalara> That sounds more like I need to improve my high speed damage estimates
20121122 05:09:06< skyfaller> poachers are better against dodgy units still
20121122 05:09:07< Alarantalara> Since they don't round at all at the moment
20121122 05:09:36< skyfaller> poachers don't become really good against pierce vulnerable units until they level up
20121122 05:09:53< Alarantalara> So poachers are viewed as equally good at the moment because of it
20121122 05:10:09< skyfaller> yeah, Ron needs to understand rounding in Wesnoth
20121122 05:10:25< skyfaller> mattsc and I had a discussion about rounding...
20121122 05:11:03< skyfaller> thunderers should also be preferred on small maps with hills and mountains
20121122 05:11:33< Alarantalara> I know how it works, I just didn't bother to do it for a first approximation since I was recreating idealized combat estimates (I have to guess the terrain among other things)
20121122 05:12:19< Alarantalara> The other thing I want to do is time of day, so that poachers suffer a penalty if the guessed time of attack is day
20121122 05:12:27< skyfaller> yes
20121122 05:12:50< Alarantalara> Of course that will put things even more in their favour at night, but I'm fine with that
20121122 05:13:50< skyfaller> against Loys and Drakes thunderers are absolutely crucial
20121122 05:14:26< skyfaller> it is plausible to skip Thunderers in other matchups
20121122 05:14:44< Alarantalara> Perhaps against humans. Ron is 7-0 vs Loyalists without using one thunderer
20121122 05:14:59< skyfaller> ha
20121122 05:15:32< skyfaller> well, maybe he only needs it in the Drake matchup then
20121122 05:16:09< skyfaller> I often skip Thunderers in other matchups besides Drakes and Loyalists
20121122 05:16:51< Alarantalara> I'll be happy once the amount is non-zero. The other units are not that much better than it
20121122 05:24:42< mattsc> So, Alarantalara, what's your take on putting Ron into 1.11?
20121122 05:25:05< mattsc> Is he ready?  Should we do this at all or wait for Fred?
20121122 05:25:56< Alarantalara> If it's testing, we can do it once per point release, so I'm not too concerned that Ron be completely ready
20121122 05:28:01< Alarantalara> The real question is "Will we get any useful information if Ron appears in the development version?"
20121122 05:28:30< Alarantalara> If the answer is no, then waiting for Fred to be done makes much more sense
20121122 05:29:01< skyfaller> well, isn't it just a better AI than the RCA AI? Why wouldn't we want people to benefit from a stronger AI ASAP?
20121122 05:29:03< mattsc> Hmm...
20121122 05:29:42< skyfaller> it's always really annoyed me that there is a dropdown menu to allow you to choose different AIs, but by default you can only choose the RCA AI
20121122 05:29:52< mattsc> Yeah, I think I remember that Ron actually managed to beat this guy, nelson, once.  ;)
20121122 05:29:56< skyfaller> lol!
20121122 05:30:03< mattsc> Although that was because he expected something else.
20121122 05:30:04< Alarantalara> Ron has also beaten AxalaraFlame
20121122 05:30:17< Alarantalara> the first time anyway
20121122 05:30:20< mattsc> Which makes the argument for the randomness that skyfaller keeps making.
20121122 05:30:52< mattsc> It's really hard to beat a human more than once...
20121122 05:31:05< skyfaller> at least, it is hard if you keep doing the same thing all the time :)
20121122 05:31:12< mattsc> right
20121122 05:31:40< mattsc> Back to my question, I am still undecided about it.  In other words, I can be convinced either way at this time.
20121122 05:32:24< mattsc> That's not to say that I wouldn't like to see one of these AIs in Wesnoth at some point, I just don't really know when the right time is.
20121122 05:32:24< skyfaller> I don't see why I have to make a case *for* including a better AI in Wesnoth, I want arguments *against* it
20121122 05:32:48< skyfaller> the users deserve an AI that sucks less
20121122 05:33:04< skyfaller> Ron murders the RCA AI all the time
20121122 05:33:11< Alarantalara> Recruitment is boring -> no thunderers
20121122 05:33:26< mattsc> The argument against is that you don't want too many intermediate, incomplete releases.
20121122 05:33:38< skyfaller> but it's the unstable version of Wesnoth
20121122 05:33:38< mattsc> Not saying that that's a strong argument.
20121122 05:33:56< skyfaller> when the next stable version of Wesnoth comes around, I would find that argument convincing
20121122 05:34:15< skyfaller> but people who use an unstable software version should expect some roughness around the edges
20121122 05:34:20< Alarantalara> I think SeattleDad demonstrated that an all Thunderer recruit was better in some matches than the RCA choices, but no one would want to play against it
20121122 05:34:41< mattsc> Ok, let me rephrase that: I wouldn't want Fred to be in 1.11 right now because I'd be too embarrassed by the mistakes he makes.
20121122 05:34:46< skyfaller> why don't you let the users make that choice?
20121122 05:34:50< mattsc> That does not apply to Rin, I think.
20121122 05:34:59< skyfaller> mattsc: the RCA AI isn't even smart enough to make those mistakes
20121122 05:35:07< mattsc> :D
20121122 05:35:47< skyfaller> look, if i go to create a game, and create a computer player, there is a little dropdown box that says "RCA AI"
20121122 05:35:51< skyfaller> this is not user friendly
20121122 05:35:55< skyfaller> WTF is the RCA AI????
20121122 05:36:08< skyfaller> and there is only one option
20121122 05:36:24< skyfaller> why the heck do they even bother with a dropdown box that has only one option?
20121122 05:36:37< mattsc> Actually, start Wesnoth in debug mode and try again.  :)
20121122 05:36:46< skyfaller> As an inexperienced user this dropdown box is a confusing waste of time and space
20121122 05:37:08< skyfaller> we're not talking about people who know how to use debug mode
20121122 05:37:19< mattsc> But yes, maybe that's one of the things AI0867 means for submitting a patch.  It should say 'default AI' or something.
20121122 05:37:42< mattsc> I know.  I'm just being a pita.
20121122 05:37:52< skyfaller> :)
20121122 05:38:08< skyfaller> I still think they should come with labels that make their nature clear to the inexperienced player
20121122 05:38:27< skyfaller> I think "easy" "normal" and "hard" are good values
20121122 05:38:51< skyfaller> or if we're not sure one is always better than the other, put "(easy)" in parentheses next to the name
20121122 05:39:07< skyfaller> or even in "scare quotes"
20121122 05:39:23< skyfaller> if we're that unsure
20121122 05:39:43< mattsc> Well, after 250 games, we're 84.0% sure.
20121122 05:40:01< skyfaller> yes, looking at these stats it seems obvious that Ron is the superior AI
20121122 05:40:49< skyfaller> it's hard for a human to beat another human 84% of the time, no matter the difference in skill
20121122 05:40:53< mattsc> skyfaller: I don't hear anybody arguing loudly against you.
20121122 05:41:02< Alarantalara> 84.4% now
20121122 05:41:15< skyfaller> one out of ten times some utterly ridiculous luck will save your incompetent behind
20121122 05:42:00< skyfaller> I've never played a ladder player that I was confident that I could beat more than 90% of the time
20121122 05:42:25< mattsc> I have some family stuff I need to take care of right now, but how about we do first what AI0867 suggested: submit a patch that makes it clear that the RCA AI is the current default.
20121122 05:42:59< skyfaller> and then figure out how to label the different AIs once we put them in Wesnoth...
20121122 05:43:07< mattsc> Then we can figure out what it takes to add Ron in as development AI.
20121122 05:43:14< skyfaller> sounds good
20121122 05:43:23< Alarantalara> skyfaller: You might like this: http://imagebin.org/236789 I lost the game at −20% damage inflicted
20121122 05:43:29< mattsc> Actually, Alarantalara probably knows all that already, but I don't...
20121122 05:44:48< mattsc> Anyways, guys, I'll have to be afk for the next hour or two.  We can pick this back up tomorrow.  (Or you continue and I read up on it later)
20121122 05:47:45< skyfaller> Alarantalara: yeah, early initial luck is not a good indicator of the eventual luck balance at the end
20121122 05:48:07< skyfaller> among other things, a few lucky hits (or misses) at the beginning can result in truly insane percentage differences in luck
20121122 06:10:48< irker724> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r9ac9a2c / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : Properly round damage for estimates - http://git.io/K1opvw
20121122 06:10:49< irker724> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r9af3bf1 / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : Add skirmisher bonus - http://git.io/zuXB7A
20121122 06:17:23< Alarantalara> mattsc: You don't use the time of day for the terrain location in your battle calcs. This will fail over lava, on Elensefar Courtyard and may miss the illuminates ability
20121122 06:20:20< Alarantalara> I'd add it in, but I haven't looked at how you're caching results and I need to sleep now
20121122 06:27:13< Alarantalara> Ron now has non-zero thunderers and a few extra skirmishers and fencers. I'll see what the total effect is when I get up tomorrow
20121122 06:48:17< mattsc> Alarantalara: no, I don't, good point.  I'll look into that.  Nice work on Ron.
20121122 06:54:28< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16219 /trunk/After_the_Storm/ (5 files in 4 dirs): 
20121122 06:54:28< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS E2S12: improve Elynia's appearance by mostly eliminating her stat bars
20121122 06:54:29< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: Ideally we would have a .show_bars attribute for units or something,
20121122 06:54:32< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: but...
20121122 06:54:48< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16220 /trunk/After_the_Storm/episode2/scenarios/12_Fate.cfg: 
20121122 06:54:48< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS E2S12: use .animate attribute to play newly spawned units' recruit animations
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20121122 08:55:21< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: faabumc * r16221 /trunk/Nightmares_of_Meloen/ (wc_scenario _main.cfg INCLUDE): 
20121122 08:55:25< irker724> wesnoth-umc-dev: NoM WC: remove local copy of World Conquest + WC include directions.
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20121122 15:05:04< irker619> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r046e217 / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : Correct rounding - http://git.io/n9LFyQ
20121122 15:15:46< irker619> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r5ce5646 / lua/battle_calcs.lua : strike_damage: add comment - http://git.io/VYFgsA
20121122 15:15:47< irker619> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r51b55c2 / lua/battle_calcs.lua : strike_damage: add time of day to cache id - http://git.io/mRri0Q
20121122 15:19:25< mattsc> Alarantalara: illuminate from units such as MoLs aren't really taken into account because it means anticipating not just where the attacking unit is, but also other units.  Same goes for things like backstab.
20121122 15:19:47< mattsc> As for the terrain TOD, I'll add that in sometime this morning.
20121122 15:20:50< Alarantalara> If you include the location, it will be affected by any illuminates abilities currently present
20121122 15:20:58< mattsc> As for caching, I am currently deleting the cache at the beginning of the turn, but that shouldn't be a requirement.  I think that last commit lifts that.
20121122 15:21:50< mattsc> That's true, but that is not generally correct when planning where to attack, especially for attack combos.
20121122 15:24:27< mattsc> Hmm, however, I guess it might be possible to change the way how attack combos are evaluated to take it into account at least for the units participating in that combo itself...
20121122 15:24:31< mattsc> Thanks for the idea!  :)
20121122 15:25:47< Alarantalara> And here I was only thinking that it should encourage drakes to attack from lava/illuminated caves when possible
20121122 15:27:47< mattsc> Yeah, and I just noticed something else...  The best weapon choice should also depend on those kinds of things ...
20121122 15:29:17< Alarantalara> not often, but yes, rounding can have a difference sometimes
20121122 15:30:31< mattsc> Oh, right, the rounding might be different.  It is done the Wesnoth way now, but I guess it needs to be done after terrain TOD, not before.
20121122 15:30:59< mattsc> Ok, this means this:
20121122 15:31:33< irker619> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r91801ad / lua/battle_calcs.lua : Revert "strike_damage: add comment" - http://git.io/Rs45sA
20121122 15:32:57< Alarantalara> The direction to round is based on leadership, ToD, and resistance, so all of those things should be combined before deciding direction to round
20121122 15:33:06< Alarantalara> assuming you count them
20121122 15:38:34< mattsc> Yeah.  TOD and resistances are taken into account before rounding (just that I forgot about terrain-based TOD)
20121122 15:39:13< mattsc> leadership is not counted at all at the moment.  And doing so would be hard - and make caching essentially impossible.
20121122 15:49:28< mattsc> Alarantalara: stupid question: where is there TOD changing terrain on Elensefar Courtyard?
20121122 15:51:31< irker619> AI-Demos: mattsc master * ra7d2774 / scenarios/test.cfg : test scenario: use Den of Onis - http://git.io/04fvnQ
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20121122 16:12:08< mattsc> Alarantalara: uh, and another question.  How do I get to the terrain TOD/illumination properties in Lua?  wesnoth.get_terrain_info does not return that.
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20121122 16:48:23< mattsc> Alarantalara: ok, got it.  I didn't remember that wesnoth.get_time_of_day takes optional coordinates ...
20121122 16:51:10< mattsc> Ah, no, wrong...  That just takes time_areas into account, not terrain.
20121122 16:54:14< mattsc> However, if you pass 'true' as third optional parameter, then terrain illumination is taken into account, not just unit illumination.  I'll update the wiki.
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20121122 17:01:43< irker619> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r16222 /trunk/Archaic_Era/ (5 files in 2 dirs): 
20121122 17:01:43< irker619> wesnoth-umc-dev: updating ukian commander animation
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20121122 17:30:51< skyfaller> mattsc: on Elensefar Courtyard, the "indoors" tiles on the right are all neutral and do not experience day and night
20121122 17:32:56< mattsc> Look at that.  How did I miss that?!
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20121122 18:32:57< irker619> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r7f34ae6 / lua/battle_calcs.lua : strike_damage: take terrain time of day and illumination into account - http://git.io/9fAEpA
20121122 18:33:09< mattsc> Alarantalara: ^
20121122 18:39:03< Alarantalara> Excellent
20121122 18:40:00< Alarantalara> An odd thing: rounding the damage estimates seems to have made the AI do slightly worse. For Ron at least, poachers do seem to work better than thunderers
20121122 18:40:27< mattsc> Interesting
20121122 18:41:06< Alarantalara> Loyalists are doing even better with the extra fencers, though
20121122 18:43:20< Alarantalara> The rounding has also increased the number of mages, so I'm thinking it may be a good idea to make damage slightly less important, since the more accurate estimates are shifting things even more in favour of the damage dealers
20121122 18:44:15< mattsc> sounds reasonable
20121122 19:01:05< irker619> AI-Demos: mattsc master * rc6bd639 / lua/battle_calcs.lua : best_weapons: also take terrain time of day and illumination into account - http://git.io/vLoXUg
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20121122 19:13:03< irker619> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r5d60c34 / lua/battle_calcs.lua : battle_calcs: add comments about cache usage - http://git.io/JLs_sg
20121122 19:13:56< mattsc> Alarantalara: I believe that caching should now work across turns, even though I am not doing that in Fred
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20121122 20:08:54< irker619> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r16223 /trunk/Archaic_Era/units/ukians/ (5 files): 
20121122 20:08:54< irker619> wesnoth-umc-dev: adjusted the cropping for small portraits
20121122 20:09:44< irker619> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r16224 /trunk/Archaic_Era/images/portraits/ (archer.png dog.png): 
20121122 20:09:44< irker619> wesnoth-umc-dev: portrait touch-ups
20121122 20:49:48< irker619> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r16225 /trunk/Archaic_Era/images/portraits/seeress.png: 
20121122 20:49:48< irker619> wesnoth-umc-dev: portrait touch-up
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 23 00:00:19 2012