--- Log opened Fri Nov 23 00:00:19 2012
20121123 00:26:11-!- mattsc [~mattsc@d154-20-32-241.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20121123 01:00:51< mattsc> Alarantalara, any new stats for us?
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20121123 01:02:15< Alarantalara> I've made a few changes and restarted it again recently, so not exactly
20121123 01:02:58< mattsc> No worries, sorry for being impatient...
20121123 01:03:36< Alarantalara> I'm mostly just trying to get the balance of units to come closer to what I want
20121123 01:04:20< mattsc> Makes sense.  I assume things didn't change dramatically from the 80+% winning percentage?
20121123 01:04:29< Alarantalara> not at all
20121123 01:05:15< mattsc> Sweet.  I am going to talk to Crab about what needs to be done to rename the RCA AI from 'testing' to 'default'.
20121123 01:21:16-!- irker453 [~irker@ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20121123 01:21:16< irker453> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r51a1aa0 / lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua : zone attacks: lowered percentage of chance to die when not to attack - http://git.io/Cgxl1Q
20121123 01:21:16< irker453> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r7e6803f / lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua : zone_control: add option for grabbing of threatened villages - http://git.io/ka3HzA
20121123 01:34:51< irker453> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * re6155d0 / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : Reduce weight of offense - http://git.io/Y4Spmg
20121123 01:34:52< irker453> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r5645d95 / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : Decrease bonus for having traits - http://git.io/P4ctHw
20121123 01:34:53< irker453> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r6bab55a / (3 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos - http://git.io/SljYRg
20121123 01:37:57< mattsc> Alarantalara: could you remind me whether there's still an issue with replays in 1.11.0 or trunk?
20121123 01:38:15< Alarantalara> I don't remember
20121123 01:38:16< mattsc> I always get OOSs for replays of Fred vs. Ron, with both versions.
20121123 01:38:55< mattsc> And I think it is because the traits of units aren't right.  (I base that on the fact that I've seen units with negative HP)
20121123 01:48:36< Alarantalara> hmm, I'll run a game in recent trunk then and find out
20121123 01:49:15< mattsc> I tried both 1.11.0 and trunk (compiled yesterday), but it would be nice if you could confirm this.
20121123 01:56:45< Alarantalara> Alright, there is definitely an issue
20121123 01:58:55-!- faabumc [~vcr@wesnoth/developer/faabumc] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20121123 02:02:09< Alarantalara> I wonder....
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20121123 02:03:37< irker453> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r16226 /trunk/A_Simple_Campaign/translations/ (6 files in 5 dirs): 
20121123 02:03:37< irker453> wesnoth-umc-dev: ASC: imported the French and Ukrainian translations from WesCamp.
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20121123 02:11:05< Alarantalara> Apparently the problem has to do with Ron concerning the OOS
20121123 02:12:04< Alarantalara> I would bet you that the private Lua units created count for the RNG but since they're private and never appear on the map, the replay doesn't mention them and so theyfall out of step
20121123 02:13:43< Alarantalara> I might be able to avoid it by assigning all random values (name, gender, traits) so the RNG can't advance
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20121123 02:26:08< Alarantalara> Testing just creating a private unit then recruiting achieves the same result, so that appears to be the issue
20121123 02:27:05< mattsc> Hmm.  But a private unit is never on the map, is it?  Is that because it advances the RNG seed and then the next real unit gets the wrong traits?
20121123 02:27:18< Alarantalara> I suspect so
20121123 02:27:48< mattsc> That's going to be an interesting one to figure out
20121123 02:28:57< mattsc> So just out of curiosity, how did you find that that's the source of the problem?
20121123 02:30:34< Alarantalara> First the RCA AI generates no OOS messages if it plays itself
20121123 02:31:47< Alarantalara> Second, I added a wesnoth.create_unit to an existing scenario and watched it go out of sync
20121123 02:32:04< Alarantalara> hopefully that scenario does have such errors before
20121123 02:32:30< Alarantalara> does NOT have such errors
20121123 02:32:47< mattsc> right.  nice.
20121123 02:33:06< Alarantalara> and it does. hmmm
20121123 02:33:18< mattsc> oh ...
20121123 02:33:40< Alarantalara> I shall have to use a simpler scenario (since I just dumped it into something convenient)
20121123 02:37:26< Alarantalara> Okay a simpler scenario that doesn't cause OOS does once a private unit is created
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20121123 02:46:19< irker426> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * rad0d10f / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : No random traits for evaluated units - http://git.io/ah5T8w
20121123 02:46:35< Alarantalara> mattsc: ^ This isn't enough to avoid the OOS, but I needed to do it anyway
20121123 02:46:44< mattsc> Alarantalara: ok
20121123 02:51:34< irker426> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r54b364a / lua/ai_helper.lua : ai_helper.next_hop: add ignore_own_units option - http://git.io/_KhRzw
20121123 02:55:03< irker426> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r77576a0 / (lua/ai_helper.lua lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua): Use ignore_own_units=true for next_hop in retreating of injured units - http://git.io/n7OO9A
20121123 02:56:26< irker426> AI-Demos: mattsc master * rf920dc2 / lua/ai_helper.lua : ai_helper: undo accidental change of debug message flag - http://git.io/3QJvFw
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20121123 03:09:57< Alarantalara> mattsc: do you want to submit the bug report, or shall I?
20121123 03:11:02< mattsc> I won't complain if you do it...  (but I can do it later if you want me to)
20121123 03:21:07< Alarantalara> In that case: https://gna.org/bugs/?20322
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20121123 03:37:03< mattsc> Thanks
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20121123 03:55:50< irker426> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * rc7cf060 / ml_utils/analyze_log.py : Add initial values to handle cases of 0 wins/losses - http://git.io/K1bTQw
20121123 03:55:51< irker426> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r2f04ad2 / ml_utils/analyze_log.py : Strip trailing whitespace - http://git.io/OTSZuA
20121123 03:55:53< irker426> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * rc246835 / (lua/ai_helper.lua lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua): Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos - http://git.io/zP8eHw
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20121123 04:20:06< irker426> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r34386a1 / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : Correctly account for drain again - http://git.io/eBXptQ
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20121123 05:07:24< mattsc> Alarantalara: how many goblins does Ron recruit?
20121123 05:07:51< Alarantalara> Not very many. About 1 in 100
20121123 05:08:13< Alarantalara> apparently less now, since it's been none after the damage importance reduction
20121123 05:08:38< mattsc> What I am getting at: Fred currently always recruits a goblin on T5.  This is because we originally had that goblin head out to the westernmost village and just sit there.
20121123 05:08:52< mattsc> Since it doesn't do that any more, does the recruit still make sense?
20121123 05:09:05< Alarantalara> It still makes sense to recruit them in small numbers
20121123 05:09:41< Alarantalara> They do amazing damage for their cost, but they have to be protected
20121123 05:10:10< mattsc> Right.  They aren't treated differently from the rest if the units atm
20121123 05:10:58< mattsc> Also, there's this comment (by you, I think) in retreating of trolls:
20121123 05:11:03< mattsc> -- We do NOT exclude mountain villages! Maybe we should?
20121123 05:11:09< Alarantalara> That was skyfaller
20121123 05:11:25< mattsc> Ok.  Recommendation whether we should or not?
20121123 05:11:56< Alarantalara> on almost all maps it doesn't matter, since mountain villages are very rare (extremely good for dwarves)
20121123 05:12:10< mattsc> true
20121123 05:12:20< mattsc> ok, I'll leave it as is for now.
20121123 05:12:57< Alarantalara> I believe the thought was that a mountain village could be used by a non-troll injured unit and this way we wouldn't have to move the troll off
20121123 05:13:10< Alarantalara> and so healing would be faster
20121123 05:13:45< mattsc> That's how I understood it also
20121123 05:14:19< Alarantalara> that is faster for the troll, since it could get the rest heal bonus
20121123 05:14:52< mattsc> Actually, the way it currently works is that non-trolls retreat first, then trolls.  So this is kind of done that way already anyway.
20121123 05:15:35< Alarantalara> The idea was that an injured unit wants to retreat the next turn, and the troll is already on the village so we want to move off of it
20121123 05:15:59< Alarantalara> and then the troll loses the extra 2 hp it could have had if it had retreated somewhere else
20121123 05:16:10< mattsc> Hmm, I see,
20121123 05:17:42< Alarantalara> Of course, if there are no injured units the next turn and that was the only mountain, then we did want to move there
20121123 05:18:31< Alarantalara> so I'd be more inclined to add a small penalty if it is a mountain village rather than avoid them entirely
20121123 05:18:53< mattsc> makes sense
20121123 05:19:45< mattsc> Another thing, I think I want to set the threshold for retreating the AI leader higher (in terms of remaining HP) than for other units.
20121123 05:22:07< skyfaller> my name was mentioned! I am summoned
20121123 05:23:03< Alarantalara> Yes, I blamed you for commenting code
20121123 05:23:58< skyfaller> hahaha
20121123 05:27:24< Alarantalara> https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos/commit/fcd8a66b4c21d58894d9af3ac286b66f5667b984#lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua
20121123 05:27:35< Alarantalara> It took awhile to find it
20121123 05:28:05< Alarantalara> mattsc moved the function, so "blame" didn't attribute it to you anymroe
20121123 05:28:34< mattsc> hehe
20121123 05:29:09< skyfaller> aw, I hate it when people can't blame me
20121123 05:29:31< irker426> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r2d8583b / lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua : Fred: retreat injured AI leader earlier than other units - http://git.io/9YuK4g
20121123 05:32:33< Alarantalara> Incidentally, if you haven't used it before, git blame can be really useful when you want to ask questions
20121123 05:36:35< skyfaller> what if I want to ask answers?
20121123 05:37:14 * skyfaller plays the Jeopardy theme song
20121123 05:38:10< Alarantalara> But git blame gives the answers, you have to answer the questions
20121123 05:38:27< Alarantalara> or at least provide them
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20121123 05:47:04< Alarantalara> That result for Fred vs Undead Ron makes me want to replace the current recruiter in Fred
20121123 05:47:35< Alarantalara> These are the results for Ron's recruiter vs the ML recruiter (with RCA for all movement)
20121123 05:47:44< Alarantalara> Northerners vs Undead            	27	2	93.1%
20121123 05:47:50< Alarantalara> Undead vs Northerners            	4	30	11.8%
20121123 05:48:17< mattsc> 40,000%?  That's not bad.
20121123 05:48:20< Alarantalara> It really implies Fred shouldn't be doing badly against Undead
20121123 05:49:10< Alarantalara> Note that the northerners are winning regardless of which recruit engine was used
20121123 05:49:58< mattsc> Alarantalara: sorry, what do those number mean?  Is there a space missing or something?
20121123 05:50:00< Alarantalara> 93% for Ron and 88% for ML when they play as Northerners vs the other's Undead
20121123 05:50:17< Alarantalara> I had lots of spaces, I guess they didn't get through
20121123 05:50:32< Alarantalara> 27 wins, 2 losses, 93.1% victory
20121123 05:50:45< Alarantalara> 4 wins, 30 losses, 11.8% victory
20121123 05:50:51< Alarantalara> It's from Ron's perspective
20121123 05:51:03< mattsc> And Fred vs. Ron?
20121123 05:51:12< mattsc> 50ish, iirc
20121123 05:51:37< Alarantalara> Yeah I think Fred won ~55% of the time
20121123 05:52:05< mattsc> Feel free to replace Fred's recruiter whenever you're ready.
20121123 05:52:39< mattsc> I've essentially been ignoring the Fred vs. undead case, esp. since you're doing so much work on recruiting.
20121123 05:53:56< Alarantalara> The only problem I have with it is that Fred will start recruiting a lot more archers and less grunts, and I don't know if Fred should be doing that
20121123 05:54:32< mattsc> Well, you have this nifty batch testing setup ...
20121123 05:54:50< mattsc> You could test before and after, vs. Ron.
20121123 05:56:24< mattsc> Btw, how many ghouls does Ron usually recruit as undead?
20121123 05:57:09< Alarantalara> lots
20121123 05:57:15< mattsc> Ron doesn't have much in terms of CAs, spreading poison being one of the few.  That's why he does well with Northerners.
20121123 05:57:32< mattsc> In that case, he should have a slight edge with undead as well.
20121123 05:57:41< Alarantalara> It's the second favourite unit
20121123 05:58:23< mattsc> It would be interesting to do a bit of testing of Fred vs. Ron/Undead with the poisoning CA turned off then.
20121123 05:58:57< Alarantalara> Ron appears to have gone with poison everything, then finish them all off with swarms of DAs
20121123 05:58:58< mattsc> That would shed some light on whether it's just the recruiting that gives Ron more of an advantage.
20121123 05:59:21< Alarantalara> The village grabbing is likely more important
20121123 05:59:44< mattsc> Yes, but that shouldn't be very different from faction to faction, while only 2 factions have poison attacks
20121123 06:01:01< mattsc> That said, I have no doubt that Fred's recruiting is very non-ideal against the undead, I'm just wondering whether that's 50% of the difference, or 90%, or ...
20121123 06:01:58< Alarantalara> well, let's find out
20121123 06:02:10< Alarantalara> I'll run that as the next set of experiments
20121123 06:02:33< mattsc> Cool.
20121123 06:03:28< mattsc> Btw, I do expect that you'll put Ron's recruiter into Fred at some point, only question is when.  Do I see that wrong?
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20121123 15:51:30< vultraz> skyfaller: just wondering, does your nick have anything to do with James Bond?
20121123 15:52:13< skyfaller> no, zero. I guess I'm going to be fielding questions like that for a couple of decades from now
20121123 15:52:44< skyfaller> I've had this name since like 2002
20121123 15:52:47< mattsc> skyfaller: that's why I asked a couple days ago whether you're going to change your name  :)
20121123 15:52:54< skyfaller> oh :P
20121123 15:53:12< vultraz> ah
20121123 15:53:17< vultraz> well you can't blame people :P
20121123 15:53:24< vultraz> with the Skyfall movie and all
20121123 15:53:37< skyfaller> I need to see Skyfall to find out whether my namesake sucks
20121123 15:56:44< vultraz> I want to see it
20121123 15:56:54< vultraz> but I'm afraid they won't get it here >_<
20121123 15:57:11< vultraz> for the last several months there's been nothing interesting to go see
20121123 15:57:25< vultraz> latest movie they got was Breaking Dawn Part 2 >_>
20121123 16:02:42< zookeeper> there's "normal" movie theaters in the western world which don't show all the most popular films (like bonds)? O.o
20121123 16:03:27< vultraz> zookeeper: I'm not in the US
20121123 16:04:20< zookeeper> you don't have to be
20121123 16:06:06< zookeeper> anyway, i guess it varies then. i just know that i'd be surprised if any mainstream movie theater in finland didn't run for example skyfall at all.
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20121123 16:55:01< mattsc> AI0867, Alarantalara, skyfaller, anybody else interested: I had a brief exchange with Crab about renaming the RCA AI from testing to default and poked around a little in the code and data/ directory.
20121123 16:56:30< mattsc> Crab's main concern is backward compatibility, at least for a while.  This affects mostly things like the CA names in [candidate_action].  Crab suggested to add new names, but keep the old ones for now, which is easy enough to do in src/ai/registry.cpp
20121123 16:58:44< mattsc> So, my suggestion is to change only things that the user sees (menu text, CA/stage/etc names/ids in tags and macros, etc.), but leave the structure and nomenclature of the C++ source the same (changing that is really beyond my abilities)
20121123 16:59:41< mattsc> If that sounds good, I'll try to put together a patch, as AI0867 suggested.
20121123 16:59:44< AI0867> I can help with the second part
20121123 17:00:10< mattsc> AI0867: that would be great!
20121123 17:00:30< mattsc> Would you do that in the same patch or separately?
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20121123 17:02:12< AI0867> separately
20121123 17:03:48< mattsc> ok, so I'll go ahead and check out what to change for the "user interface" part then.  Is it recommended to split this up into separate patches (as far as possible), or do all of it together?
20121123 17:04:09< mattsc> Sorry, I've never done a patch before (know where to look up how to do it though)
20121123 17:07:30< AI0867> well, you can split it up into atomic parts, but no smaller ;)
20121123 17:07:35< mattsc> My other question is what name to use.  skyfaller pointed out that RCA doesn't mean anything to the average user.  I'd like to keep the RCA _and_ indicate that it is the default, but 'Default AI (RCA)' sounds a little ... clunky.
20121123 17:08:03< mattsc> At least not for longer than femtoseconds...  :D
20121123 17:08:47< mattsc> AI0867: what I meant is what do the Wesnoth developers prefer?  Let me make an example:
20121123 17:09:52< mattsc> I could add new CA names to src/ai/registry.cpp and change those names in the mainline macros either in one patch or in two.  One only sets the capability, the other uses it.  Preference?
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20121123 17:17:15< AI0867> the ideas for this are mainly:
20121123 17:17:27< AI0867> -don't include unrelated stuff in the same commit
20121123 17:17:48< AI0867> -if the resulting diff gets big, try to split it up a bit
20121123 17:18:05< AI0867> -try to make sure every intermediate point still functions
20121123 17:19:21< mattsc> AI0867: thanks.   (Now on to figuring out how to create a patch  :) )
20121123 17:19:57< AI0867> svn diff
20121123 17:21:00< mattsc> yeah, I saw and tried that.  But when I changed one of the .cpp files just to see what happens, it didn't show up.
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20121123 17:22:09< mattsc> As I said, I'm sure I can figure this out.
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20121123 20:35:56< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r16227 /trunk/Archaic_Era/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
20121123 20:35:56< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: Ukian Regular portrait (also used for Veteran, for now)
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20121123 21:05:30< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r16228 /trunk/Archaic_Era/images/portraits/primevalist_fighter.png: 
20121123 21:05:31< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: touch-up of face
20121123 21:12:17< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r16229 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/ (163 files in 20 dirs): 
20121123 21:12:18< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: SS: ran umcpropfix.
20121123 21:12:38< Espreon> Note to self: tell SS's author to make real commit messages.
20121123 21:12:49< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r16230 /trunk/Archaic_Era/images/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
20121123 21:12:49< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: AE: ran umcpropfix.
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20121123 23:48:42< Alarantalara> I now have results after 788 games: http://pastebin.com/GSfudZqz
20121123 23:49:18< Alarantalara> Of note: Ron is undefeated on Fallenstar Lake and Arcanclave Citadel
20121123 23:50:03< Alarantalara> Worst race is Undead
20121123 23:50:34< Alarantalara> Ron is undefeated as Loyalists vs Northerners, and as Northerners against both Undead and Rebels
20121123 23:51:09< Alarantalara> Aethermaw is hard for the AI to play
20121123 23:52:15< Alarantalara> Ron wins only 61% of the time there, which I suspect implies that the only benefit there comes from recruiting
20121123 23:54:44< Alarantalara> Also, the castle switching hurts Ron on Sablestone Delta
20121123 23:56:00< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16231 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/images/halos: 
20121123 23:56:01< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: Update 11/23/12
20121123 23:57:33< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16232 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/images/ (5 files in 2 dirs): 
20121123 23:57:34< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: update 11/23/12
20121123 23:58:53< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16233 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/images/scenery: 
20121123 23:58:53< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: update 11/23/12
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20121123 23:59:48< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: battlestarooo * r16234 /trunk/Scarlet_Sea/images/units: 
20121123 23:59:49< irker140> wesnoth-umc-dev: update 11/23/12
--- Log closed Sat Nov 24 00:00:52 2012