--- Log opened Thu Dec 13 00:00:36 2012
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20121213 00:12:46< irker669> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r16390 /trunk/To_Lands_Unknown/images/README: 
20121213 00:12:46< irker669> wesnoth-umc-dev: TLU: added a README to tell future maintainers to not move these images to the images add-on.
20121213 00:16:40< irker669> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r16391 /trunk/To_Lands_Unknown_Images/README: 
20121213 00:16:41< irker669> wesnoth-umc-dev: TLU_I: added a README to tell future maintainers to not move/put images with translatable content into this add-on.
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20121213 02:22:00< irker669> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r16392 /trunk/To_Lands_Unknown/images/README: 
20121213 02:22:01< irker669> wesnoth-umc-dev: TLU: fixed a typo.
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20121213 03:24:44< irker669> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * re34cebd / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : Update some comments - http://git.io/_1uzyA
20121213 03:24:45< irker669> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r43fd0cb / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : Separate normal damage from poison damage - http://git.io/g4EIOw
20121213 03:24:46< irker669> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r3219a1d / (lua/ai_helper.lua lua/battle_calcs.lua): Factor out time of day bonus calculation - http://git.io/fuusnQ
20121213 03:24:47< irker669> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r04c0099 / (3 files): Include estimated time of day to reach front in recruiting - http://git.io/LdTZJQ
20121213 03:25:00< Alarantalara> skyfaller: I just added time of day estimates to recruiting
20121213 03:25:11< Alarantalara> It has some amusing consequences
20121213 03:25:12< skyfaller> nice :D
20121213 03:26:25< Alarantalara> For instance: Loyalists now sometimes recruit mermen on land maps because they take so long to arrive that the AI thinks it will be a better unit for damage because it arrives late
20121213 03:26:38< Alarantalara> I think I need to do something about that
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20121213 03:28:44< skyfaller> yes, that does sound less than ideal :)
20121213 03:29:09< skyfaller> I mean, it shouldn't recruit units that are not as good simply because they are slower
20121213 03:30:14< Alarantalara> Oh, definitely. I suspect I'll be reducing the effect of greater times to the enemy
20121213 03:30:35< skyfaller> there has to be some other way to do that
20121213 03:31:12< Alarantalara> Greater times are less reliable anyway. The battleline could very easily move in 3-4 turns
20121213 03:31:36< vultraz> is it possible to make the AI able to learn to do stuff based on patterns of what their opponent does?
20121213 03:32:23< Alarantalara> Yes, but it's hard and we don't have such information about the opponent on turn 1 anyway
20121213 03:33:13< Alarantalara> It could be useful if the AI was being written for a campaign, since we'd have previous maps to help
20121213 03:33:21< vultraz> is it on your todo list to do such a thing?
20121213 03:33:28< vultraz> JW, cuz it'd be cool
20121213 03:35:05< Alarantalara> I might eventually try to start guessing what the opponent is likely to recruit. But after that, I'm not sure what easily measurable actions of the opponent there are
20121213 03:37:38< skyfaller> well, first we should want to know if we're facing a human or an AI
20121213 03:38:01< skyfaller> we should be able to teach our AIs to deal with known enemy AIs :D
20121213 03:38:10< Alarantalara> As you can tell, though, I'm still trying to get recruiting good units based on what is already there working properly
20121213 03:38:59< skyfaller> of course, we already crush the RCA AI so badly that creating special strategies to oppose it seems like overkill
20121213 03:39:11< skyfaller> but there are certain ways in which AIs and humans will play differently
20121213 03:39:41< skyfaller> for instance, AIs can always see your units, there is no fog of war
20121213 03:39:59< skyfaller> so ambushes and traps should not work as well
20121213 03:40:08< Alarantalara> skyfaller: That's actually easy. Run all the known AI recruit algorithms, see what each chose, compare to what happened. Once we have a match, run that algorithm to find out what it will recruit next.
20121213 03:40:23< Alarantalara> It's likely the AI will be known by turn 2
20121213 03:41:11< skyfaller> and if a human is relying on scouts and doesn't have any on one side, you'll know that they can't see your forces approaching on that side
20121213 03:41:55< skyfaller> I'd really like our AIs to someday know what a human is capable of seeing, and keep our units out of sight until we decide to attack
20121213 03:42:38< skyfaller> Alarantalara: OK, but what you proposed will only work if we're facing an AI, right? What if a human accidentally uses the same opening as an AI?
20121213 03:42:51< skyfaller> wouldn't we mistakenly identify that player as an AI?
20121213 03:43:00< skyfaller> can we detect whether we are facing a human or an AI?
20121213 03:43:11< Alarantalara> If they match the RCA AI choices, they deserve it. Also we can abandon it if they stop matching the pattern
20121213 03:43:23< skyfaller> hahahah ok
20121213 03:44:08< Alarantalara> The ML AI is random enough that predicting is effectively impossible anyway
20121213 03:44:40< skyfaller> but the ML AI only is different from the RCA AI in recruiting, right?
20121213 03:44:46< Alarantalara> Yes
20121213 03:44:56< skyfaller> so we still know how it will behave in all other ways
20121213 03:45:00< Alarantalara> except for the version that borrows Ron
20121213 03:45:15< skyfaller> sure, ok, but we should still know how that works
20121213 03:45:38< skyfaller> I guess maybe we aren't interested in teaching our AIs to fight themselves :P
20121213 03:46:11< Alarantalara> Not enormously. Besides, if they all act more like humans, then there's only one target
20121213 03:46:27< skyfaller> but still our AIs are different from humans, so there should be some anti-human strategies and anti-AI strategies
20121213 03:47:39< skyfaller> I guess we could also try to distinguish between noob humans and pro humans
20121213 03:47:56< skyfaller> There must be some stupid things that only a noob would do, and advanced tactics you would only see from a pro
20121213 03:47:59< skyfaller> but that sounds a lot harder
20121213 03:48:38< skyfaller> and maybe it wouldn't be a good idea anyway, b/c then a pro could pretend to be a noob to put the AI "at ease" :P
20121213 03:48:52< Alarantalara> I would like to think that finding openings and exploiting them works much the same for both other than that the noob would show more of them
20121213 03:49:02< skyfaller> yeah, forget I made that suggestion
20121213 03:49:13< skyfaller> the real difference is between humans and AIs
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20121213 04:31:28< irker669> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r8d270a9 / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : Reduce effect of ToD bonus the longer it takes to reach the enemy - http://git.io/F5hxhA
20121213 04:43:14< irker669> AI-Demos: mattsc master * ra2e8d7f / (4 files in 3 dirs): Move 2 scenario files into micro_ais directory - http://git.io/SQVqCQ
20121213 04:43:15< irker669> AI-Demos: mattsc master * re811e46 / scenarios/bottleneck-defense.cfg : Delete original scenario file - http://git.io/8Y1JQA
20121213 04:56:36< irker669> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r82d768c / (2 files in 2 dirs): Move map - http://git.io/PmNuLg
20121213 04:56:37< irker669> AI-Demos: mattsc master * rc3abea9 / (_main.cfg micro_ais/scenarios/bottleneck-defense.cfg): Introduce MAI_DIR constant to Micro AI root directory - http://git.io/iCTUww
20121213 05:17:26< irker669> AI-Demos: mattsc master * rb15d50b / (13 files): Use MAI_DIR constant in paths to all scenario maps - http://git.io/EGyXpg
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20121213 05:57:41< irker669> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r7cf59ba / (4 files in 4 dirs): More uses of MAI_DIR - http://git.io/3n3FpA
20121213 06:00:02< irker669> AI-Demos: mattsc master * rc445a05 / _main.cfg : Undefine MAI_DIR at end of code blocks - http://git.io/fb0Onw
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20121213 06:54:09< irker669> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r23eefaa / _main.cfg : Fix whitespaces - http://git.io/kKbKPw
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20121213 08:01:19< irker669> AI-Demos: mattsc master * re1b192d / (2 files in 2 dirs): Set up path for micro_ais_wml_tags.lua as a variable - http://git.io/W7Cj7w
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20121213 23:47:31< irker685> wesnoth-umc-dev: inferno8 * r16393 /trunk/Era_of_Magic/units/ (23 files in 4 dirs): 
20121213 23:47:31< irker685> wesnoth-umc-dev: EoMa: balancing
--- Log closed Fri Dec 14 00:00:39 2012